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NANCY GRACE

Dangerous High-Speed Chases Caught on Video

Aired November 27, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, California, Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Utah, the wildest and deadliest high-speed chases caught on tape. Bombshell tonight. We have the stunning video!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very dangerous situation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here it comes!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two police cruisers chase a Pontiac Grand Prix with a safe shoved in the trunk and three burglary suspects inside. Three men stop the car, jump out, cross the HOV lane and run into oncoming traffic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect now taking off, running!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pursuit is on, and a bank robbery suspect here out of Saugus, a Bank of America...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They tried to pull him over, pull this person over, and again, he resisted, and the pursuit was on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not complying with the officers, sheriff`s deputies there with their guns drawn.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here he comes!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Through busy Miami suburbs, the car speeding on the sidewalk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Almost fishtailing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police officers (ph). When you see civilians there in the streets...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trying a pit maneuver or something. They`ve got to get this guy to stop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do (ph) these criminals put lives at risk, car chases going out of control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. The wildest, the deadliest, high-speed chases caught on tape. Tonight, we have the stunning video!

First to California, four bank robbers lead police on a high-speed chase, and to slow down the police who were in hot pursuit, the robbers throw huge wads of cash out the windows of their Volvo SUV while weaving wildly down crowded streets in downtown LA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh! Look at everyone running. As they threw that money out, people were literally running for it in front of the path of oncoming LA County sheriff`s deputy vehicles here. And like I said, there`s every bit of 8 to 10, possibly more sheriff`s vehicles in pursuit of this guy. And as this guy throws money out, he creates such a distraction for the folks on the street, they just keep -- they just go running for it, right into the oncoming path of these vehicles that are in pursuit of this guy. So what a dangerous situation!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Whoa! The wildest, the deadliest high-speed chases. Take a look at these guys, four bank robbers crammed into a black Volvo SUV. They`re going -- look, look, look! Do you see all of the pedestrians running up to the car. They`re slowing down just a little bit to get around this group of people. Take a look at this.

Out to you, Rita Cosby. What`s happening?

RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, this is a crazy scene. We`re told that some members of the Crips gang actually started a bank robbery. They went to a Bank of America branch in southern California. They were wearing ski masks. They also had black gloves. They told all the employees to get down on their knees. Then they took off with the loot.

First they got into a getaway car. It was a Honda Accord. And then they switched into this vehicle that you`re seeing here, the black SUV. And as you pointed out, Nancy, it was a wild chase. It lasted 90 minutes, covered 40 miles, and at one point involved dozens of police vehicles, an LAPD helicopter.

And they were literally, at the end, throwing out wads of cash, wads of cash. And people were just climbing and coming all over it, trying to get some money.

GRACE: You know, the Rollin Crips versus the Crips, very predominant in LA.

But you know, out to you, Mike Brooks, HLN law enforcement analyst -- take a look at this vehicle. It`s a plethora of -- it`s a treasure trove of evidence.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It is. And you`ve got four people inside initially, Nancy, and they`re going through the neighborhoods, throwing the money out. And some of the people (INAUDIBLE) going in, walking in front of the sheriff`s cruisers to get this money.

You talk about dangerous, it`s unbelievable! Look at that! Somebody in the back just throwing the money out as the driver rides through the neighborhood.

GRACE: You know, another thing is this -- out to you again, Mike Brooks. Don`t they know about dashcams?

BROOKS: Oh, yes, but you know, people don`t even think about that. (INAUDIBLE) also the helicopters. People think they can outrun the police. You`re not going to outrun that eye in the sky, Nancy. Very, very seldom, very seldom does anybody actually get away.

GRACE: Michael Board, WOAI, we`re looking at a high-speed chase. It`s slowing down right there along the curb, and it`s going to pick up. These guys rob a bank, all right? And as if that`s not enough, they then lead police on a high-speed chase, weaving wildly through crowded streets in downtown LA. Give me the back story, Michael Board.

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, Nancy, what you don`t see in this video is in this car, these wannabe gangsters are calling some of their fellow gangsters, saying, Hey, we`re going through your neighborhood. We know we`re going to be caught. We know they`re going to take all the money we just stole. So what we`re going to do is we`re going to drive by your neighborhood, throw the money out, and then you got to go by and grab it so nobody else does.

That was part of their plan to keep their ill-gotten gains. It doesn`t really seem to be working, though, Nancy, because everybody is out there grabbing the cash.

GRACE: Take a look, guys. And we thought originally -- initially, we thought that they only threw out huge wads of cash, just throwing it out the windows, so pedestrians would then suddenly converge in the middle of the street and slow down police. That apparently was their initial thought.

But then we learned they planned to go on further and throw some of the wads of cash to their cohorts. What do we know about their cohorts? Let`s go out to Mark DeCarlo, Emmy Award winner, contributor to "Windy City Live." Weigh in, Mark.

MARK DECARLO, "WINDY CITY LIVE": I think their cohorts must be idiots like these guys. There`s got to be an easier way to redistribute wealth. I mean, are they -- I`m not a lawyer, Nancy, but are they thinking if they get rid of it all before they`re caught, like crime doesn`t count?

GRACE: Take a look, everybody -- high-speed chase. And so how does it come to an end? And to you, Aaron Brehove. You`re seeing the body language of these guys when they get busted. What do you think?

AARON BREHOVE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, they know they`re done. They`re not putting up a major fight. They know their -- it`s over for them, so they`re just going along with it. They`ve already made their statement, thrown away their money. They`ve made everything they`re going to do at this point.

GRACE: You know, Rita Cosby, Mark DeCarlo called them idiots. You know, that`s not a technical legal term, but I can`t say that he`s wrong.

COSBY: No, they definitely are idiots. And also, as they were throwing out the cash, not only to their cohorts, as you point out, everybody as coming off the streets. People were watching as these wads -- they`re watching on television, as we are, and seeing this cash coming out. People are going out.

They kept going around the same neighborhood. Eventually, they were so stupid that they got blocked in by people who were swarming to get the cash. And it got so crazy at the end, Nancy, riot gear -- police in riot gear had to block that SUV because everybody was swarming on the SUV, wondering was there more cash inside.

GRACE: You know, do we have any idea, Rita Cosby, how much money was actually stolen from the bank?

COSBY: We don`t know. But what we do know is the cops said, Hey, look, everybody, please return the cash. This is stolen property. Good luck at that. Only about $500 was returned by people voluntarily. Cops found about another $1,000.

But they said thousands upon thousands were actually robbed from the bank. They have not said how much, but they said a very minuscule amount has been actually handed in. People were just grabbing it. They`re to detect who took it. They`re looking from the videotape. It`s going to be a long process.

GRACE: Take a look at this. The lawyers -- unleash them, Joey Jackson, New York, Randy Kessler, Atlanta. You know, Randy Kessler, I cut my teeth on a bank robbery. Back then, it was called the CNS Bank. You know, a lot of times, banks keep it quiet about how much money was stolen.

And Liz, please, Jackson and Kessler are very handsome, but I want to see the chase. Go ahead, Kessler.

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what do you want to say about it? It`s crazy that they`re doing this. It`s crazy they`re throwing money out the window. Maybe they`re going to go to a mental health defense. Maybe it`s the Robin Hood defense. Who knows? There are stranger things that we`ve seen in jury trials than a jury actually liking the defendant and trying to find a way to help them and not give them the ultimate conviction.

GRACE: If you`re talking about the Robin Hood defense of throwing wads of cash out the window to -- to stymie police, I don`t think that`s going to work, Joey Jackson.

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It may not work, Nancy. But let`s talk mitigation for a minute. Certainly, bank robbers are wrong. No one should rob a bank. No one should take anybody else`s money. However, the chase was not as quick as it could have been. People were endangered. However, they didn`t go on the sidewalk. They didn`t drive too excessively. They gave out money. They distributed...

GRACE: Wait a minute! Liz...

JACKSON: ... it to people who did not...

GRACE: ... this is worth seeing his face. So you`re telling me...

JACKSON: I knew what was coming, Nancy!

GRACE: ... that they didn`t run over anybody and kill them during the car chase, after they robbed a bank...

JACKSON: No. You know what...

GRACE: ... that they should -- there`s mitigation and they should get a lighter sentence?

JACKSON: It goes to mitigation because they could have gone at excessive speeds. They could have endangered public in a further way than they did. And furthermore...

GRACE: They did endanger the public!

JACKSON: ... what they could have done is when they were caught, instead of going voluntarily, they could put up a fight. They didn`t do it.

GRACE: Jackson!

JACKSON: Lesser sentence is appropriate.

GRACE: Do you have children?

JACKSON: I do. I have one lovely boy.

GRACE: Yes, put them out in the front yard and let this gang of idiots drive by! Yes, that`s not going to happen! I can`t believe you even said that`s going to be mitigation. But you know, I guess you got to do something...

JACKSON: We have to.

JACKSON: ... when your back`s against the wall, and you`re caught with the money and you`re caught in the car and it`s your car and you`re ID`d at the bank, and you`re on video from a helicopter overhead.

JACKSON: Incriminating.

GRACE: And they see you throwing the money out. I guess you`ve got to claim mitigation because you didn`t kill anybody.

Ellie Jostad, what more can you tell me?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, Nancy, two other thing to keep in mind. A fourth suspect bailed out of this car, and they never caught him, never identified him.

And what you`re seeing here, the end of this chase, was actually a very dangerous situation for the investigators because this huge crowd had gathered, the word was spreading that there might be more money in that getaway car, Let`s go grab it, and police had to call in multiple reinforcements to set up a skirmish line and try to control the huge crowd.

GRACE: Ellie, why is that this not, as Joey Jackson out of New York says, a Robin Hood defense scenario?

JOSTAD: Well, police told everybody, even if you were happy to get that money, it`s a crime. It`s stolen money. It`s not yours. And they warned everybody who`s seen on video picking up cash that they were going to look at that video, and if they could identify people who got money and didn`t turn it in, they could be charged with a crime.

GRACE: But Ellie, you`re leaping one step too far. Robin Hood is all about the intent, not whether people handed the money in. Isn`t it true that they weren`t trying to rob from the rich -- i.e., people who saved their money and put it in the bank?

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: They`re not robbing from them to give to the poor. They`re robbing the bank to give money to their friends to hold the money until they can reclaim the money, and they`re throwing out wads of cash to stop police. That`s not exactly the Robin Hood defense.

JOSTAD: No, you`re right.

GRACE: I don`t see poor people benefiting from this.

JOSTAD: No, you`re right, Nancy. And police say this was a diversion tactic. They were trying to get...

GRACE: Hey, Ellie! Ellie!

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: There`s a guy running up in about a $300 pair of Nike tennis shoes. I don`t think he`s poor.

JOSTAD: Well, you know, exactly. And like I said, police warned everybody, You got to turn this money back in, although they only got about $500 of it back from the public.

GRACE: Wendy Walsh, psychologist and expert -- Wendy, they`ve got to know they`re going to get caught!

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh, they knew they were going to get caught all right, but I don`t know at what point in that chase. You know, it went on 90 minutes. And it`s interesting, Nancy, that it started in the very tony neighborhoods of Pasadena. They went north first. And then they turned around, got on some city streets and charged down the 110 freeway down to south Los Angeles.

Yes, they could have been calling their friends, but maybe they thought if they`re going down, they might as well give the money to a neighborhood that is a little more lower-income, maybe some in poverty. And I think that was their sort of strange intention by the end. We`re going down, let`s get rid of the money, let`s try to give it to our friends and anybody else because if they were just going to give it to their friends, it would be one big package. But the way they threw it out like Robin Hood...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This chase right now is going southbound on 22nd Avenue. There`s an aviation unit following this vehicle. Police officers now directly behind that vehicle here. Fishtailing police officers. You see civilians there in the street and running off the roadway, and again now spun out into the fence, into somebody`s front yard. Oh, they`re going to have the takedown going on here. We have people bailing out, somebody putting their arms up, running over a hood of a car there. Driver still in the vehicle, we believe in the vehicle. There`s the takedown there of that suspect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Another high-speed chase caught on video, some of the wildest and deadliest high-speed chases. They make great evidence at trial.

Ellie Jostad, what`s happening here?

JOSTAD: Nancy, you`re seeing the wild chase through a residential neighborhood in the Miami-Dade area. The suspect here, Joshua Dumas (ph), actually stole a car from a woman who was just pumping gas and then tried to get away through this, as you can tell, very crowded residential neighborhood. He ends up crashing through some fences and ending up in somebody`s yard.

GRACE: So what happened here, Mike Brooks, is the woman -- her name was Monique McKellar (ph) -- is pumping gas into her silver Chrysler. She had just bought it from her grandmother.

BROOKS: Right.

GRACE: She goes in to pay, like we all do, comes out, car gone.

BROOKS: Right. And law enforcement -- there was a detective actually talking to this guy, Nancy, at the gas station. He was giving the detective false information, they later found out. And then sees this car, he breaks away from the detective, jumps in the car, and then the chase is on through this neighborhood.

GRACE: Like, Mike, we`re not going to know who he is?

BROOKS: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, comes to find out he apparently does have a -- they found out he had an extensive criminal record. But we saw -- we see the officers here, they looked like they were trying to do a pit maneuver. But going through these neighborhoods, going through a residential neighborhood, Nancy...

GRACE: Hey, hey, hey...

BROOKS: ... neighborhood is so dangerous.

GRACE: ... hey, hey, Brooks, this is HLN. It`s not NASCAR. Don`t throw out NASCAR terms without defining them, please. Pit maneuver.

BROOKS: Pit maneuver is when an officer comes up behind a car he`s chasing, and they try to nudge either the right or the lefthand rear quarter panel and try to spin that car out. He did a partial pit maneuver right before this guy crashed through the fence, but he jumped over the fence and we saw that he...

GRACE: This guy should try out...

BROOKS: ... had surrendered.

GRACE: ... for the Olympics! Did you see him dive over that vehicle, then dive across that fence?

What about it, Cosby? What are we missing?

COSBY: Oh, this is quite incredible. And this guy, in fact, as Mike Brooks was pointing out -- the cops actually were nudging him, pushing him. So he does deserve a NASCAR driver title. And then he jumps over the car.

The one thing that`s interesting is now cops are being investigated because as you saw in the video -- you can see right there -- you see the scene -- there was a scene before where the cop was lunging at him and maybe even hit him. So the cops are being investigated.

Did they use excessive force? Were they bumping him? And when they bumped him, when he was driving, could they have caused another accident? So there`s a lot of questions right now.

Look at that dive! That`s incredible!

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! So this guy carjacks a car, and the police are being investigated?

Mark DeCarlo, did you hear that?

DECARLO: I think it`s ridiculous! First of all, the most ridiculous thing is the guy is at the gas station, talking to a cop and then says, Excuse me, I`ve got to go rob a car. I`ll be right back. And then he takes off. If someone`s going to get punched, do you want the cop getting punched or do you want the suspect getting punched?

GRACE: So Mark DeCarlo, this reminds me as my days, my 10 years as a felony prosecutor. I would open a file like this and go, Whoa. What? And I`d read the police report again, get down on my knees and thank God because he`s actually talking to a detective, says -- Oh, be a lamb, be a lamb.

DECARLO: Exactly!

GRACE: Be right back. And he dives and runs and carjacks a car!

DECARLO: If you would write that scene in a Hollywood movie, the producers would go, No, no one is that stupid. You know, what did he say, I`ve got to go get a Zagnut bar and a monster drink, and then I`m gone. And really, come on. Really. Some people deserve to...

GRACE: Hey, I...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know, sometimes, you just got to have a slurpee.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: High-speed chase in North Carolina, as two suspects evade police and steal multiple getaway vehicles as the officers try to stop them. Watch as the suspects approach a police blockade, officers with their guns drawn. The suspects in a red Jeep suddenly go off road, avoiding law enforcement. Police are able to shoot out the suspect vehicle`s tires and surround the vehicle as it pulls off the road, the suspects taken into custody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Let me get this straight. Out to you, Michael Board, WOAI. They`re dubbed the new Bonnie and Clyde. They lead 30 officers on a crazy, wild chase, and they repeatedly break into homes, stealing cars, and they ditch multiple getaway cars before finally blowing it out when police shoot out their tires?

BOARD: Well, you know, Nancy, a lot of these chases, we see guys being scared. They don`t know what to do. They run one way, they run the other way. They`re trying to figure out what their escape is.

These guys were professionals at this. They knew exactly what they were doing. You can see in the video that they know exactly how to get away, exactly what routes to take. They`ve done this before. They`ve stolen, we think, at least six cars, broken into homes. These are professional criminals. They know exactly which way to go.

GRACE: Wa-wait! Wa-wait!

BOARD: The only mistake they...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I want to see them shoot the car. I want to see them -- oh! Ow! Ow! They shot the tires out. Keep going. Keep going, Liz. Don`t -- don`t take away. They shot out the tires. They don`t have tires, no flats on their car, like I have on my minivan, apparently, all right? Just -- and one guy actually gets shot in the leg, isn`t that right, Rita?

COSBY: (INAUDIBLE) gets shot in the leg, not life-threatening. The wildest thing, Nancy, is this all begins when a police officer sees a suspicious car. He pulls the car over with this Bonnie and Clyde. And when he goes into the car and gets information, he realizes that these people are responsible for a string of robberies in South Carolina and Georgia.

He`s about to go arrest them. Then they take off on this wild chase. In this -- this series right here that we`re seeing, they use four different vehicles. In fact, at one point, they get to a rail track and get on a rail vehicle. I mean, these guys are real pros.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The pursuit is on, and a bank robbery suspect here out of Saugus, a Bank of America branch in Saugus apparently robbed by this person. We don`t know how many people, in fact, are in this SUV at this point. Is it just the driver? Are thee additional accomplices?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have several deputies in trail of this guy, and they tried to pull him over, pull this person over. And again, he resisted, and the pursuit was on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Traveling at a fairly high rate of speed now. He is kind of changing lanes and moving off towards the right side of the freeway from what it -- from what we can tell. How are we going to stop this guy?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The wildest, deadliest car chases. And take a look at this one. Another Bank of America has been robbed, ripped off. And these guys, hot pursuit, flying down the freeway there in Saugus. One man wearing camouflage with a patch over his face.

Take a look at this high-speed chase and from what I understand it turns deadly.

We are taking your calls. Joe in New York, what`s your question?

JOE, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Well, I just have a comment, Nancy.

GRACE: OK.

JOE: My comment is I think a lot of these people, you know, they are so down and out that they just do it for the excitement. They figure, all right, if they get away, they got the money. They figure, they`re not going to get away, so they figure if they get caught or jailed, it ain`t that bad, because at least now they got food, you know, they got somewhere to live, and that`s what I think it is. You know, because there are so many --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But wait a minute, wait a minute. So that down and out. I think I`d rather live in my Chevy Suburban or my black Volvo SUV than in a jail cell, Joe in New York.

JOE: Well, I mean, I mean, but some people, they have like -- you know what I mean? They have nothing and they figure even if they get shot, they figure, well, they`re better off. Or if they do go to jail, they figure well, at least, you know -- I mean, that`s how -- I mean that`s what I figure they`re thinking, you know. I mean I wouldn`t want --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, let`s talk about it. Out to you, Mike Brooks. That`s a unique spin from Joe in New York. That they`d rather be shot in the leg and have their face in the dirt, eating a dirt sandwich with a cop on your back, stunning you with a taser, than be without a meal? I don`t know about that.

BROOKS: No, usually not, Nancy. But Joe is right about one thing. Sometimes people do do it for excitement. We`ve seen some chases on HLN, where you see them waving at the helicopter, waving at everybody, because they think they`re on TV. But in this particular case, it turns deadly and there`s nothing funny about that, Nancy.

GRACE: But to you, Mark DeCarlo. I mean to be famous for five minutes, to have excitement for five minutes in a high-speed chase with cops, you`ll have about 20 years behind bars to think about. That`s a little downtime, huh?

DECARLO: Yes, it`s ridiculous. And if your only goal is to be famous for five minutes, marry a Kardashian. Don`t get a police beat you up. That`s ridiculous. You know --

GRACE: OK. So --

DECARLO: Society is big and there are some people that give money to charity and do great things and there are some people that do stupid things and, you know, maybe jail is the best place for those people.

GRACE: Joey Jackson, Randy Kessler.

OK, Kessler, what do you do -- with that, at trial, when your client is like waving, waving up at the helicopters caught video? Are you -- do you see this, Kessler?

KESSLER: I see it. But you look at what caused that. And you know, apparently he was recently widowed.

GRACE: Look at what caused it?

KESSLER: Yes, he had all sorts of --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: He robbed a bank. That`s what caused it.

KESSLER: But what got him to that point? Like Joe in New York said. What made him want to do that? He had lost his wife, he`d maybe gone through some personal trauma. You`ve got to get sympathy for him.

GRACE: What are you talking about? This guy is a felon.

KESSLER: Right. And what we`re seeing on the TV is not very sympathetic. We`ve got to make him sympathetic to the jury if we`re going to try the case and defend try him appropriately.

GRACE: So you`re going to tell the -- the jury he`s got marital problem? I guess he does.

KESSLER: He lost his wife.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Brandishing a weapon that`s going to dive -- you know, dive into a stolen car and lead police on a high-speed chase.

KESSLER: You use what you have.

GRACE: You think he`s a dream to live with?

KESSLER: No. You use what you have. And he didn`t --

GRACE: Yes. And you know what?

KESSLER: I mean, if he lost his wife -- his wife died, Nancy, and he was emotionally distraught. Who knows what pushed him over the edge. But we see this all the time. He didn`t care about his own life.

GRACE: Well, why are you talking about his wife died?

KESSLER: He was a widow. He had lost his wife a few years before. And then --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Whoa, whoa. Did you just say a few years before?

KESSLER: Yes. And he --

GRACE: Years?

KESSLER: And he apparently had not been coping well with it. This is the ultimatum. This is what he finally did to say, I don`t care about life anymore. I`m going to go rob a bank. If I get away with it, like Joe said, great, if I don`t get away with it, what do I care? Because my life is horrible anyway.

GRACE: He had a shoot-out with police, Jackson.

JACKSON: Yes, he did. Look, I think it`s about desperation. Desperate times call for desperate measures and when you`re in an economy where people don`t have money, perhaps they don`t have an education.

GRACE: Wait, wait. I want you and Kessler to drink in this video right here. Take a look at this. Let`s hear it from Mike Brooks. Law enforcement.

Mike, don`t even start with me about their pain and suffering and their depression when they`re taking a shot at cops.

BROOKS: No, and this guy was given an opportunity to surrender twice, Nancy. Got out of the car twice, got back inside. They`re trying to negotiate with him, he pulled a gun, he left law enforcement no choice but to -- but to use deadly force against him.

GRACE: Ellie Jostad, give me the backstory.

JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, Joey Jackson is right. His friends did say he`d fallen on hard times, his wife passed away, he has to declare bankruptcy. But the craziest part about this to me, Nancy, is that his friends, who he saw every day, went to the cafe with, hung out with at the hardware store, actually watched this thing unfold on TV, recognized his car, recognized what he was wearing, and couldn`t believe that this guy they thought was, you know, mild-mannered guy about town was involved in something like this.

GRACE: So what about him throwing out the dye pack that he stole from the bank? And explain to me how that fits into the "I`m sad" scenario that you go in, rob a bank, then drive at high speed into a residential area?

JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. One of the witnesses who was standing outside the bank when he made his escape said she saw him toss out like you said one of those dye packs, you know, that explodes and colors all the money so you can`t go spend it. Saw him toss that out. Toss out some of the money with it before he got into the car, which by the way is his own car and make his getaway.

And police believe he was actually trying to head back toward his home, then for whatever reason abandoned that idea and continued driving north before they were able to catch up with him.

GRACE: You know, Michael Board of WOAI, I guess he was trying to get back to his home. Because when cops get to his home, they find out that it is an arsenal.

BOARD: He had loaded weapons all over this house, and Nancy, when I`m watching this video and I see him shooting at cops, what I`m thinking is this is a guy who`s trying to get killed. You know, we hear the term suicide by cop. People who run out in front of the cops and start waving a gun, wanting the cops to shoot at him.

I think that this was this type of case. He was leading police on a chase. When they wouldn`t shoot at him, he started shooting at the cops, saying, maybe if I shoot at the cops, they`ll shoot me. I think this guy was trying to get killed.

GRACE: Well, you know what, I appreciate all of your arm -- your armchair quarterbacking about what he was thinking. But I know about two months after I joined the district attorney`s office, that a very dear friend, a cop, an Atlanta PD was gunned down by a driver after he very simply asked for license and registration. I`ll never forget it.

So while you all are telling me about how he had run out of money and he had suffered a loss a couple of years before, I feel that. I understand that. We`ve all been broke. I`ve suffered a loss, too. But to rob a bank and then shoot at police officers? No. No. I am not accepting that, Mark DeCarlo.

DECARLO: Yes, you know, everyone has hard times, but if you really have decided to end your life there`s probably a better way to do it than to jeopardize all these other people. Policemen are very brave. And they never know what`s going to happen when they make a traffic stop on someone. So for -- if that was truly his intent, it`s selfishness piled upon stupidity piled upon desperation. It`s not good.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The high-speed chase through Summit County.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s 100 miles an hour.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The driver of this van, in a hurry, as fast as 115 miles per hour. Weaves through traffic, hits a cone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he continues down the road, he could end up injuring or killing his own passengers, if not somebody else in other vehicles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands on the hood and don`t move.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The driver makes a run for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. What you don`t know right now is this is a father with four children, little children in his car. There is daddy. Ow. He`s pulled over on suspected DUI, driving under the influence, and he takes off and speeds up over 115 miles per hour. With the four children in the car.

Ellie, what happened?

JOSTAD: Nancy, as you said, he was -- this is Robert Hills, he`s 30 years old. He`s got his wife and his four kids apparently on a family road trip. They live in Connecticut. This all went down in Utah. The dad says they were actually headed to Hollywood, California. Dad gets pulled over because they suspect he`s driving drunk. When an officer turned away for just a second, to try to talk to another officer, the dad makes a run for it. You see here, he`s going up to 115 mile an hours before they get him to drive over one of those spike strips and they can stop the car.

GRACE: OK. What are those spike strips, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: They throw the spike strips out in front of the car if you`re able to get in the front. And it has little -- real sharp spikes that are hollow, so when your car runs over them, they`ll come off, and they`ll stay stuck in the car and the air will go out of it through the little -- through the hollow spike. Very, very effective. We talked about the Pitt maneuver before, the spike strips are another way that they use to stop vehicles during high-speed pursuits.

GRACE: Now how do they throw that out?

BROOKS: Well, they would radio a unit in front. And they`ll take -- you`ll get a cop, again, very, very dangerous for that officer who is deploying the spike strips to throw it out in front of that vehicle because you have to be careful since there`s other vehicles on the road, too, Nancy. But you talk about how dangerous. Since the 2000 -- since the year 2011, 63 officers, Nancy, 63, have been killed in the line of duty during vehicle pursuits. And so far, 2012, Nancy, five officers have been killed in the line of duty. Extremely dangerous.

GRACE: You know, Wendy Walsh, you`re the psychologist. The defense attorneys are coming up with all these ideas about why people would open fire on police, why they would drive at outrageous speeds in residential areas, why they`ll drive off from a bank and lead cops on a chase, when they`ve got the bank`s safe right back there in the trunk.

But here he`s got his four children in the car. Yes, I`m worried about the wife. But you know what, she signed up for it. Those children did not ask for this.

WALSH: So true, Nancy. And bear with me here. I know it sounds crazy, when I watch this video, I am so disturbed watching it, because I know those four kids are in there.

But let me tell you, this dad thinks he`s actually saving himself and his family. In some crazy way, he believes that if he got arrested and goes to jail, that he`s now separated from his four kids. If he could just get away, if he could take flight, and he could save them and somehow he`s trusting his own driving, his trusting his protection abilities, we know it`s wrong, but I`m sure that`s what`s going through his head.

GRACE: Now why are you sure that`s what`s going through his head?

WALSH: Because he`s got four kids, because he`s married, because he`s on a family vacation, because he doesn`t want it to be ruined. Because he wants everything to be OK.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: How about, Wendy --

WALSH: He`s natural thinking is we`re just going to go to Hollywood.

GRACE: Because he`s drunk as a skunk and he`s driving and doesn`t want to get busted. What about that, Aaron Brehove?

BREHOVE: Well, if you -- if you watch the -- when he`s running away, he does look like he`s a little bit -- he`s almost falling over there, and you can see a lot happening. You can see that he`s a little bit off there.

And it`s hard for officers when you meet somebody that`s drunk. When you see them, they`re not going to be as anxious. They`re not going to have that anxiety coming out that you typically see when someone is being pulled over and is guilty of a crime. So it makes it even harder for an officer to tell but hopefully, usually they can tell and -- luckily, these -- turned out too poorly, where they`re able to catch him with no fatalities.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Joe in Florida. What`s your question, Joe?

JOE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy, I don`t really have a question. But I have a -- I think an interesting comment.

GRACE: OK.

JOE: Some years ago, I went to a dealership to pick up a car and I had my golf clubs with me. I`ve come from the golf course. And O.J. Simpson saw me, walked over and I decided not to tell him what I really thought of him. But in the conversation that it was almost one sided, I said what was that thing about the chase? And he said, I was heavily sedated, he said, and A.J. took me to the cemetery where Niccole was buried and the police were there, and he said, I told them, take me home.

So A.J. called the police and let them know that O.J. Simpson was on the way back. He was a fugitive then. And that`s when the slow chase developed.

GRACE: And, you know, Joe in Florida, that`s really when the nation started focusing on car chases. So in this one, Rita Cosby, was he trying to save his family or save his own skin?

COSBY: Well, it looks like save his own skin. In fact they found a bottle in the front. You hear on some of the audiotape and officers saying, put the bottle down.

Look at this track record. I have this guy`s rap sheet.

GRACE: Whoa.

COSBY: It`s super long.

GRACE: You mean he had a bottle in the front seat with him? A bottle and rap sheet?

COSBY: He -- well, he had the bottle. But let me read you his rap sheet. In fact the cop said to him, put the bottle down, sir. You heard bottles clanging. And that of course when he ran off soon afterwards. But his rap sheet, Nancy, he`s a registered sex offender, he`s got accessory to burglary, conspiracy to burglary, sexual assault, narcotics. This guy has got a long -- it sounds like he was trying to save his own skin.

GRACE: Whoa. I hope psychologist Wendy Walsh heard all that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: On the Highway 59 Frontage Road at Wesleyan, two police cruisers chase a Pontiac Grand Prix with a safe shoved in the trunk and three burglary suspects inside. The cars swerves onto to the freeway and hits high speed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello. Hello. We`ve got a chase.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Near Shepherd, three men stop the car, jump out, cross the HOV lane and run into oncoming traffic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Gee. That`s hard to find them. They`ve got a safe crammed in their car trunk.

Ellie, what happened?

JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, these guys actually scaled a fence, broke into the bedroom window of the home, crawled into the closet where this couple had hidden a safe, a 300-pound safe filled with documents and jewelry. They dragged it out of the house. Luckily a neighbor saw this going on, calls police. The guys as soon as cops arrive took off.

And this, Nancy, is in Houston. This is on a major freeway in Houston, Texas. They`re driving just like that with the safe taken out of the back after their getaway vehicle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We remember American hero Navy Petty Officer 3rd Class Ronald Ginther, 37. Auburndale, Florida. Purple Heart, Iraqi Freedom Medal. Remembered for a big laugh. And being a comic. Parents Jim and Boody (ph). Four brothers. Daughters Kayla and Alaina.

Ronald Ginther, American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: To Mark DeCarlo, Emmy Award winner, contributor, "Windy City Life." I think I would have tested out the security of that safe.

DECARLO: Yes, my question is, I`ve seen movies. And in movies the criminals at least sit around for five minutes and go OK, let`s talk through the plan. These guys put a -- it was like a cartoon. They had a giant safe in the back of a sedan. What -- they get pulled over, what are they going to say? We`re taking it back to the shop. The odd numbers aren`t working. We`ll bring it back when we`re done. I mean -- you know, some people belong in jail. Those guys, they should be convicted of just being dumb.

GRACE: Take a look at this. And I would laugh along with you, Mark DeCarlo, yet again. But Mike Brooks, they`re flying down a freeway where I could be driving down that with my children in the back of my minivan watching, you know, "Home Alone." You know, and this is incredibly dangerous.

BROOKS: Nancy, it`s unbelievable. They`re putting all kinds of people in danger. Law enforcement, people driving along the Frontage Road. People on the interstate. On the HOV lane. It`s just -- it`s just so dangerous. Did they have a plan? No, I don`t think they did.

But also to the homeowners, if you buy a safe, bolt it to your floor so they can`t take it out of your house.

GRACE: Good thinking. Now take a look at the next high-speed car chase I`m going to show you. This is incredible. This is where they`re going so fast they can`t control themselves and they blast into a jewelry store. Take a look at this. Oh, my stars. There`s a toddler.

Ellie, what`s happening?

JOSTAD: Nancy, this just happened last weekend. This car is actually driven by an elderly woman who is going to pick up her jewelry at this store. Police think she may have hit the gas instead of the brake. Crashed through there, just missed that little boy who`s the son of the owner. And luckily even though he was thrown by the impact, he was fine. Not hurt.

GRACE: You know, all the time, Rita Cosby, everybody goes, oh why this happened to me, why me, why me. Here these people need to be saying an angel was watching out after my child today.

COSBY: Absolutely. And this poor -- this is the little 16-month-old boy. And you can see, he was just a few feet away. He flew three feet. And this woman is apparently an elderly woman who`s had problems before. And believe it or not, the last incident she ran into a bus. So I think she should not be driving.

GRACE: Yes, yes, yes. I will never forget when they came and took my grandmother Lucy`s driver`s license away. I didn`t want to be the one to tell her. We made the Georgia State Patrol go take it from her. OK?

Happy birthday to Texas friend, Wendy. Writer, photographer. Four children. Three grands. And to Florida friends Theodosia and Lavonda. Aren`t they beautiful?

"DR. DREW" up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END