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Third Accuser Steps Forward; Gay to Straight?

Aired November 28, 2012 - 21:00   ET



KEVIN CLASH VOICEMAIL TO "JOHN": I cannot talk to your answering machine. So what you can do is you text me, tell me that you`re available so we can talk on the phone because I`m not interested in talking on the answering machine at this time.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, another bombshell in the Kevin Clash sex scandal. A third accuser has come forward and is speaking exclusively here to tell us about his alleged sexual relationship with the man who was the voice of Elmo.

In our "Sex and Relationship Wednesdays", we`re get to the core of what could be the most important kind of sex -- safe sex. Three young people made one simple mistake that changed their lives forever.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: The Kevin Clash scandal continues to escalate. Yesterday, accuser number three who has chosen to remain anonymous filed a federal lawsuit under the name of John Doe. In it, he accuses Kevin Clash of sexual misconduct going back to when John Doe was a minor.

Two days ago, we brought you an exclusive interview with accuser number two, Cecil Singleton, who has filed a $5 million lawsuit, civil suit, against Clash. Watch this.


PINSKY: It started when you were 15. It lasted many years. Was it a highly charged sexual relationship that you had trouble leaving?


PINSKY: There was not a sexual relationship there?

SINGLETON: There was a sexual relationship.

PINSKY: You kept going back. There must have been something about this relationship that you liked.

SINGLETON: I would have to say the thing that stuck out to me the most about him was for years he was seemingly the most -- the nicest, the most respectful and the man that courted me in the most proper way.


PINSKY: Tonight, accuser number three joins us in his first exclusive interview. He`s asked to be on the phone and to have his voice disguised.

With me here in New York, is the lawyer for accuser number two, and number three, Jeff Herman.

Jeff, before I talk to accuser number three, are you surprised that more men are coming forward?

JEFF HERMAN, ATTORNEY FOR TWO SEX-ABUSE ACCUSERS: No, not at all. I mean, this is the thing I see all the time in these kinds of cases. A lot of victims sort of suffer in silence, don`t come forward. But when they see other victims coming forward, number one, they feel it`s safe and there`s a collective empowerment that they get from each other.

And number two, when they see other victims being challenged to their veracity, you know, whether they`re telling the truth, they think to themselves, well, you know what? I need to come forward because it happened to me.

PINSKY: I need to support that guy. That when they`re doubting a guy when I know what the truth is.

HERMAN: Exactly.

PINSKY: All right. The accuser number three, we`re calling him John Doe. And, of course, as I said, he`s on the phone. He asked to have his voice distorted so he could not be identified. He has a career. He`s out in the world, right?

HERMAN: Correct.

PINSKY: He doesn`t want this to become a problem. He`s also in his suit not specifying any particular damages from a monetary standpoint.

HERMAN: That`s right. He`s trying to send a message this is more about him supporting the other victim.

PINSKY: All right. John Doe, let me go to you. Is that true?

"JOHN", CLAIMS PUPPETEER ABUSED HIM (via telephone): Yes. That`s true. I only came forward once I saw the full story being so similar to the experience that I had with him.

PINSKY: And what was your relationship like with Kevin? When did it start? When did it become sexual? Was it a romantic relationship? Please take us through it.

JOHN: Well, initially, I mean, it started -- I began modeling when I was in high school. And while in the city, I called a chat line to find out places to go, you know, in the area because where I`m from there really isn`t a gay scene.

And Craig responded to my ad. Craig wanted to meet me.

PINSKY: Who`s Craig, John? John, who`s Craig?

JOHN: That`s the name that Kevin used. He said his name was Craig.


JOHN: And he called me a few times while I was in town, and finally I met up with him, and once we met up, I let it be known that, you know, I wasn`t going to be doing anything sexual, that that wasn`t my intent. Just to talk.

So we ended up talking. We had a cocktail actually --

PINSKY: You were 16 at the time?

JOHN: Yes. I was.

PINSKY: Were you in a public place? Hold on a second. You were served alcohol. Is that a public --

JOHN: At home.

PINSKY: At home. OK, go ahead.

JOHN: No, it was my home.


JOHN: It was the day after I did the shoot. I went to his place. We ended up talking. One thing led to another, ended up making out. And he touched my behind and saw that I was tight, I had not had sex. I could tell that turned him on.

So -- and then, I mean, after that, it stopped and I ended up leaving. I had to get back to New Jersey where I was staying.

PINSKY: So you were a virgin at the time and at what point did this become sexual?

JOHN: It didn`t become sexual until after I moved to New York.

PINSKY: How old were you?

JOHN: I moved to New York. I was 18 once I moved to New York and began college.

PINSKY: So this is -- this is somewhat different -- this is somewhat different than the previous allegations in that you were not a minor when you began having sex with him.

JOHN: Well, I mean, oral took place, the hot, heavy kissing. There was oral involved. Other than that, no, there was no penetration until I was of age.

PINSKY: Did you fall in love with him?


PINSKY: Did you fall in love with him?

JOHN: Yes, I did. I did. I fell in love with Kevin. I still have feelings for Kevin and this has been really challenging this entire process. Not to the level where they were, but I really am concerned about his wellbeing.

I personally would like to see that he does get help. You know, more guys are coming out of the woodwork. Obviously, for me it shows a pattern of a sickness, and I really would love to see that, you know, he gets help because he really is a great person.

All our moments were not horrible. Kind of like what Cecil said, at the beginning, he courted. He was beautiful. He was like a prince charming. I felt like I met the man of my dreams, you know?

I got past the fact that he did lie about his age and his name isn`t Craig. Obviously, he was a lot older. But it`s just -- I mean, he took my breath away. But through that process of me leaving New York and going to school and still trying to develop a career, he was very demanding. Like, when Kevin wanted me there, regardless of what time it was, I dropped what I was doing and I was there. Like, it was expected.

PINSKY: Did you think -- you said you were -- John, let me interrupt you. You said you were in love with Kevin. Did you think this was an exclusive relationship? And if so, is part of the reason you`re coming forward you`re angry with the pattern of behavior?

JOHN: I did feel that it was exclusive. There was a point in time where I did come witness to him being involved with someone else. I dropped by his apartment unannounced and there was evidence that someone else was in the apartment.

And I was angry then. I can`t say I wasn`t angry, but for me I was like, you know what, this relationship obviously is -- it is what it is, and I have to accept it for what it is because I love this person. So I`m going to love him most of all.

I really thought this has to be (INAUDIBLE) who this person is, like this has to be. Then when the Cecil story happened, I saw he was being attacked. People accused him of lying. I was like, you know what, I have to validate this story, because he isn`t lying.

And to answer your question about anger, if I was angry, like, I would have released my book when I wanted to. Part of the reason I didn`t release my book in 2009, is because you shouldn`t act when you`re angry and you have hatred toward someone because you might regret what you decide to do. So --


PINSKY: John, I want to explain something. People haven`t heard about your book yet. He was writing a book, a couple chapters included some of his experiences with Kevin. You called him, I guess, the Tickler in those chapters. Is that right?

JOHN: I did. I called him the Tickler.

PINSKY: Why`s that?

JOHN: And when I wrote the -- huh?

PINSKY: Why the Tickler?

JOHN: Tickle me Elmo. I mean, that`s where it came from.

PINSKY: Got it.

JOHN: I didn`t want to exploit his name at that point. I was writing it in a way that people could figure it out. I actually named someone else in that chapter Kevin, so maybe people would put two and two together. I never wanted to just plainly say Kevin Clash was my ex-boyfriend.

Yes. Because I didn`t want to -- I never wanted to ruin his career. That has not been my purpose in doing any of this. I think he`s amazing at what he does.

PINSKY: It is a sad, sad sort of aspect to this case, and it has ruined his career and taken down something that`s a complicated aspect of this case.

But listen, I want to keep talking to you, John? All right. So stay with me. We`ve got a lot more to go through.

CNN, HLN cannot independently confirm any of what we`re hearing here today.

In fact, we`re also going to hear a voicemail that John Doe says Kevin Clash left for him, being provided by his attorney, Jeff, who`s here with me now. We`re going to hear that, play that. That voicemail was left about 10 days ago, is that right? Something like that? A couple weeks ago?

HERMAN: Couple weeks ago.

We`re back to hear that. More with John Doe after this.


PINSKY: Accuser number three, AKA, John Doe, has provided us through his attorney with voicemail messages which John Doe alleges were left on his phone by Kevin Clash.

John, give us the background story on these messages. When were they left? What was this al about?

JOHN (via telephone): OK. So a week prior to -- I`m sorry -- a week and three days prior to the first victim coming forward, Sheldon, Kevin was in contact with me. He told me that he -- well, he found me basically. I got a random text message from a number I didn`t have, and I asked who it was and he responded it was Kevin and asked me what was going on in life, how I was doing. So, I mean, I responded to the messages not really thinking anything of it.

I asked him how he got my number. He said, (INAUDIBLE) wave. I said, LOL. And so, as we continue to talk, he was like, where are you now? I told him where I lived.

And in a couple days, he made arrangements to be where I was and asked me to meet him for dinner.

PINSKY: And this --

JOHN: I meet him for dinner.


JOHN: And we just kind of caught up. We -- he asked me what was new in life and I kind of told him what I was up to as far as my career and things I`ve been up to. And he asked me questions about, like, when we dated and our past and how he missed those things. Asked me if I was OK, was something bothering me? I`m like I`m great, what are you talking about? I didn`t think anything of it.

So afterwards, I left there feeling like I got some closure from the relationship I had. When we ended things, it was kind of -- he went his way, I went mine. And life just kind of went on.

And for me, I was like, you know, I think I`m over that. Like, it`s a new chapter of my life. You know?

PINSKY: Hang on. When did he leave you these voicemails? We`re going to play the voicemail. OK. Go ahead.

JOHN: So -- you`re going to play them or do you want me to talk about it?

PINSKY: No, I want to play them. I understand you guys met. You closed. Then there`s a voicemail.

JOHN: A week after the dinner. After the dinner, he was still trying to see me and speak with me because I blew him off kind of. So, I mean, I wasn`t responding to him.

PINSKY: I see.

JOHN: And then I ended up receiving these voicemails.

PINSKY: OK. So let`s play one of the voicemails which your attorney has provided to us here in person and you can comment on it afterwards. Let`s listen.


KEVIN CLASH VOICEMAIL TO "JOHN": I know you`re busy. I just thought -- I don`t know, I was hoping we could talk a little bit more to see -- because I really wanted to be with you more, I`ve just been traveling. If we could connect more so, you know, we can be more in each other`s lives. I just can`t get in touch with you. I`ve tried, but, like I said, I was hoping to see you before I left.


PINSKY: I`m confused, John. It seems like you had some closure and now he`s trying to reconnect with you? What`s that all about?

JOHN: Yes. That`s what it seemed like to me. That he honestly was trying to reconnect with me, because I wasn`t responding after our dinner. Well, and I was just thinking, oh, you know, he wants to reconnect.

I must be honest -- the thought did cross my mind. I`m older now, more mature. Something he used to complain about a lot was that I was immature, that I need to grow up. Technically, hey, I was a teenager, but whatever.

But I took it as maybe this is what he`s looking for, but I didn`t -- I still didn`t respond because I didn`t want to put myself out there. And he continued to call and continued to reach for me.

PINSKY: OK. Now, I have to read a statement from -- we actually did attempt to get a statement from Kevin Clash`s attorney, that he spoke directly with my staff. He neither confirmed nor denied any aspect of the situation and refused to comment on these voicemail messages.

He did release a statement yesterday that says, "The federal cases filed against Mr. Clash are without merit. The cases and Mr. Clash`s reputation will be defended vigorously."

So let`s talk about his reputation for a second. In the story that your history with him, you sort of laid it out for us, when you were a teenager, you said you had not had penetrative sex with him but you did have oral sex? Is that right?

JOHN: Yes, there was oral and (INAUDIBLE).

PINSKY: OK. So there was sex and really that`s really what the suit is about, is it not, Jeff?

HERMAN: That`s correct. It`s about what happened when he was a minor.

PINSKY: And how do you vet these stories to make -- it seems like you if get one wrong, if somebody comes forward and claims something and you get judged it and it has no veracity, everybody gets painted with that brush.

How do try to -- how do you determine what`s real and what isn`t?

HERMAN: Right, right. Well, this is serious business. You know, before I accuse somebody and file a case about sexual abuse, I have to have very strong belief that this is accurate. Of course, I wasn`t there.

PINSKY: Do you take a lie detector test? That kind of thing?

HERMAN: I have done lie detector tests. But what I do -- I mean, every case is different. But I vet them. I try to find corroborating evidence, witnesses who might have known something.

In this case, for John Doe, it`s a good example, because he mentioned to me that he was writing this book three years ago about his experiences at 16. And so he went and he found the old disk drive that had the book and was able to give that to me. And so, for me that was, like, real, you know, piece of corroborating evidence I could establish a good faith in the case.

But before I file, I need to have that belief.

PINSKY: Are all of your clients communicating with each other? Are they supporting each other? John says he gets in it to support Cecil. Is he actually doing that?

HERMAN: Well, it`s interesting because, yes, not directly, but indirectly they`re coming forward and saying I`m here to support this guy. There`s like this group sort of that formed informally to be supportive of each other.

PINSKY: Do you refuse any cases? Have you?

HERMAN: Oh, absolutely.

PINSKY: As it pertains to Kevin Clash?

HERMAN: Oh, well, there`s -- you know, in my vetting process, I can`t really get into it --

PINSKY: Of course.

HERMAN: -- because I haven`t taken the case yet. I don`t want to comment on it.

But I will tell you that for every case, even if someone`s already been accused, I still go through that process to make sure it`s not someone sort of coming out of the woodwork --

PINSKY: Right.

HERMAN: -- that I can`t confirm their story.

PINSKY: John, are you concerned that you`re going to be criticized the way Cecil was?

JOHN: Absolutely. And I honestly feel that I have more to lose than Cecil, to be honest, and that`s one reason I`m handling it the way I am. I mean, I don`t know his personal life to that extent, but I do know the success I`ve built around myself could possibly be in jeopardy by definitely coming forward.

Since I`m not asking for anything, it`s not a risk I`m wanting to take right now. Like, I really hate technology`s gotten the way it is where these matters just can`t be handled behind closed doors. You know? But, unfortunately, that`s not the reality of the situation.

PINSKY: And yet, let me play devil`s advocate with you for one second. You will respond to it. And yet, here you are on television. I say you`re just an angry, jilted lover who`s angry with a guy who was cheating on me.

What do you say to those people that take that position?

JOHN: I say that you`re entitled to your opinion, and I can`t change that. I can only sit here on the phone and tell my truth.

PINSKY: Fair enough. I appreciate --

JOHN: If you don`t believe that, I can`t force you.

PINSKY: John, I appreciate you sharing here. Jeff, thank you for bringing him and Cecil as well. Good luck with this.

It is a sad, sad, sad story. For me, you know, knowing all pathologies that go into it, I just wish -- this is the message for viewers out there: if you have impulses where you could harm another person, get treatment now before you do harm, because then all bets are off after that. It`s, you know, there are going to be consequences and they will be severe.

All right. Next up, a man who says he was a homosexual, he was gay but he was cured. Another man says the so-called cure almost killed him.

And later, the stars of my new primetime special about living with HIV and what it was like to go public with their status.


PINSKY: OK, parents. If your son told you he was gay, would you embrace it, support him, or would you send him to a so-called therapy where you were told he could be cured of being gay?

David Pickup says he was once gay but he was cured and now practices so-called "conversion therapy" on other homosexuals.

Also with me is Ryan Kendall, he says when his parents found out he was gay, they sent him for this sort of therapy and his position is this almost killed him.

We also have attorney Areva Martin.

David, I want to go to you first.

You`re suing the governor of California to be able to, as you say, cure gay young people -- and, again, as I understand it, this whole issue is about just under the age of 18. Isn`t that right? You want to be able to practice on adolescents?

DAVID PICKUP, SAYS HE CAN "CURE" HOMOSEXUALS: That`s correct, but I need to correct something you just stated. I`ve never called it and will never call it a cure. None of my colleagues nor I believe that homosexuality is a mental illness. When you say cure, it leaves the wrong impression in the minds of the public.

PINSKY: OK. Clear that up. What is it, then?

PICKUP: It`s maximizing heterosexual potential through authentic reparative therapy, which worked for me. There are many men, and women -- but I`ll speak mainly about men since that`s who I primarily treat -- who believe and know that for them, homosexuality does not represent their authentic selves but has a cause and effect nature, as opposed to being innate or naturally inborn.

For instance, in my case, not the only cause, but one of the major causes of my feelings of homosexuality through puberty is because I was a victim of sexual abuse by a much older male.


PICKUP: And so what this -- you know, that`s my situation. And I find --

PINSKY: That`s a common -- that`s a common story. And I`m not -- people would argue that, you know, that that can be changed.

But, Ryan -- I want to go to Ryan if you don`t mind.

And, Ryan, I know you originally were not willing to appear with David. But I`m glad you did decide to come. I appreciate that.

Tell me how you respond to that and what you went through as a teenager.

RYAN KENDALL, SAYS GAY "CURE" ALMOST KILLED HIM: Mr. Pickup is clearly lying, right? I did an interview on CBC Radio where Mr. Pickup followed me. He said homosexuality is caused by an emotional trauma. So, he is, of course --

PINSKY: But he`s talking about his sexual trauma.

KENDALL: Yes. But he`s also saying that I`m not saying you can cure this, I`m not saying it`s a mental illness.


KENDALL: Well, he is framing it in that language.

And something else I should point out, you know, by saying that, as Mr. Pickup does, that this bill, SB-1172, will prevent the victims of pedophiles like those of Jerry Sandusky which is exactly the words you`ve used, sir, from getting appropriate mental health treatment, that goes back to a long line of LGBT people as a threat to children that has its roots in Anita Bryant and (INAUDIBLE).

PINSKY: Talk about what happened to you. What was treatment like for you?

KENDALL: So when I was 14 years old, my parents found out that I`m a gay man. They sent me to a series of reversal therapists, including Joseph Nicolosi, who is a member of NART, along with Mr. Pickup. And it destroyed my entire life. I mean, they were engaging in coercive attacks against my identity by intimating there`s something defecting and wrong with being a gay person.

PINSKY: What were the consequences? You said it almost killed you. What happened?

KENDALL: Absolutely. So we know from social science that there are certain things that happen with familial rejection of gay people, including increased risk of suicidal ideation, increased rates of drug abuse, homelessness, depression. That was a checklist that happened to me.

I was depressed, I was suicidal, I was occasionally homeless and I was on drugs.

PINSKY: And you`re saying that connects to the fact that your family rejected you because you failed curative therapy? Is that what we`re saying?

KENDALL: Yes, I mean, so these reparative therapists are legitimatizing the idea that there is something to cure.

PINSKY: OK. Now, Areva, I want to go to you.

What I`m confused about is -- do -- we`re really talking about -- if an adult male wants to get this therapy, he still can. We`re really talking about a state law to teach adolescents, you know, which, again, can`t technically make decisions about these kinds of things. So, it`s an attempt to protect adolescents from something that science doesn`t yet substantiate.

Is that right?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Absolutely correct, Dr. Drew. And I applaud Governor Jerry brown and Senator Ted Lieu who is the author of this bill and all of California legislators that enacted this bill.

This is an important piece of legislation that protects minors. You are so correct. The state has an obligation to step in when practices are done that are harmful to kids. And this is exactly what it did.


MARTIN: There`s no scientific basis for this therapy. All of the major mental health and medical associations have come out in favor of the bill and in support of ending this type of therapy for minors.

And the young man that`s joining you today, he`s a prime example of someone that has suffered from this type of unscientific, non-medically based therapy.

PINSKY: OK. Areva, I`ve got to interrupt --

MARTIN: So, again, I applaud California for taking this giant step.

PINSKY: Fair enough. I got to -- we`re out of time here. We`re going to keep this conversation going after the break. I`m going to bring in a Harvard faculty psychiatrist to help us sort through this as well.

And later, some brave young people come forward about their mistakes that changed their lives forever.

Stay with us.


PINSKY: All right. We`ve been discussing this new California law protecting underage individuals from what was called reparative therapy. Go to a phone call here. Dee in Florida. Again, our number is 855-373- 7395. Dee?

DEE, FLORIDA: I believe that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle. I mean, it is a chosen lifestyle. I do not believe that it is an illness that can be cured, because it`s against nature. It goes against nature, and it goes against God`s law. There is nothing you can do about it except for these people to convert and turn to religion. I mean, turn to God. It`s wrong. Absolutely wrong to be homosexual.

PINSKY: OK. So, Dee`s opinion is, do you like -- what kind of foods do you like?


PINSKY: You get to choose that?

KENDALL: Yes. I do choose -- well, no, I don`t choose my preferences.

PINSKY: You don`t choose your preferences?

KENDALL: No. Just like you didn`t choose your heterosexuality.

PINSKY: That`s right. Or what I like about.

KENDALL: Absolutely. But Dee is, you know, particularly uninformed, right? I mean, there`s no evidence that indicates, credible evidence that indicates that homosexuality is a conscious decision. And there`s no good argument that two people being in love with each other is immoral in any way.

So, hers is a religious-based argument. She`s certainly entitled to her opinion. But there are no facts on which to legislate or to initiate policy --

DAVID PICKUP, SAYS HE WAS GAY, NOW STRAIGHT: There`s a lot of credible evidence. I take issue with that greatly. There`s a lot of credible evidence. One needs to go to one public website. It is a new website called That`s voices/ Many therapeutic stories of successful change.

You know, reparative therapy worked for me. It lowered my depression. It lowered my anxiety. My homosexual feelings naturally spontaneously dissipated, because for me, homosexuality does not represent my authentic self.

PINSKY: David, let me ask you, were you a teenager when you were treated?

PICKUP: No, no, I was --

PINSKY: Because really, that`s what`s at issue here, isn`t it? I mean, the issue is the capacity for you to practice on under 18, which -- so I want to settle this from the psychiatric establishment. Joining me from Boston is Harvard faculty psychiatrist, Dr. John Sharp. So, Dr. Sharp, help me out.


PINSKY: Does this work, are we protecting adolescents from treatments that could be dangerous? Isn`t that really our obligation? Is it reasonable to create laws to protect them or are we living a free choice?

SHARP: No, it`s our obligation and it is reasonable. This is a discredited and essentially banned therapy. And I want to say your caller, Dee, was very helpful, because she illustrates to me one of the big questions which is who believes that homosexuality is actually an illness or a pathology?

Most often, the religious right, oftentimes, comes from cults. It does not come from doctors and mental health professionals and from psychologists. Not at all.

PICKUP: And doctor, you just marginalized my voice. I have a voice as well as my clients. And we don`t come from that kind of ridiculous viewpoint. We come from a highly sound therapeutic background. If I -- you know, you can`t marginalize --

SHARP: Not in my view, Mr. Pickup. I`m sorry. I must disagree.

PICKUP: Yes. That`s your view. That`s the point. It`s your view. It`s not your clients` view. That`s your view.

SHARP: No, that`s not true at all.


PICKUP: You believe that everyone who is gay is born that way. And that`s why you believe that. I`m saying that both voices need a chance to speak.


PINSKY: Guys, play in the sand box nice. Here we go. Areva, I want to go to you. So, the issue is, really the responsibility is, Dr. Sharp and his colleagues and faculty at tertiary (ph) institutions to make a determination --

SHARP: All credible physicians.

PINSKY: Right. I understand.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You`re right, Dr. Drew. This really --

PINSKY: So, Areva, what do we do with all this?

MARTIN: The issue is about protecting minors. I think the state has done the right thing. The state has an obligation to protect minors. We do it with respect --

PICKUP: No. This law abuses a certain --


MARTIN: We do it with respect to driving. We take many actions from a state`s perspective to protect minors. And this is just another example of the state saying, yes, you have your rights to privacy. You have your first amendment right, but the state has an interest, a greater interest in ensuring that kids are not subjected to quackery medicine or unscientific therapies or not used to, you know, so-called help kids --

PICKUP: Why have a law on --


MARTIN: Dr. Drew, the law is on point in protecting minors.


PICKUP: The APA says there`s no proof of harm, page 83. Read it for yourself at the conclusions of the main report which this entire law is based on. The completely unscientific nature of the 2009 APA task force report. Their research was cherry picked --

SHARP: I read that same task force report. It shows there`s a lot of harm.


PINSKY: Hold on, guys.

PICKUP: Read page 83.

PINSKY: Guys, we`ll read page 83. I want to wrap this up. Hang on a second, Areva. Final comment.


PINSKY: Final comment. You were the subject --

KENDALL: My life was destroyed by this practice. It destroyed my family. It destroyed my confidence, it destroyed my emotional life. And David Pickup is lying when he says there`s no proof that this is harmful, because (INAUDIBLE) does not do longitudinal studies to determine what the long-term effects --

PINSKY: But you were harmed?

KENDALL: I was absolutely harmed.

PINSKY: OK. Therein lies -- and I think -- would you agree that it`s reasonable to have this available for adults if they freely choose --

KENDALL: Of course not. We don`t allow quackery in the United States.


KENDALL: We have laws against selling snake oil, we have laws against claiming that they`re panaceas. We should similarly outlaw this quackery.

PINSKY: Thank you to my panel. Thank you, Ryan Kendall, David Pickup, Areva Martin, Dr. John Sharp. I`ve got to go.

Next, I`m talking to young people about living with HIV and what you need to know to protect yourself and your kids and this condition ain`t going away. 1.2 million Americans with it. You need to understand the new face of HIV.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t really know what to say to that.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My ex. He cheated on me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you first tell mom I`ve been diagnosed, you know, with HIV, to me it was one word. Death.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I said, Lord, why my daughter?



PINSKY: It will not take her daughter, Stephanie. That was a clip from a special program on MTV this Saturday, 7:00 p.m. It is called "I`m Positive." We follow by an after-show that I`m hosting at Right now, I`m actually joined by these young people. Twenty-five-year-old Kelly Gluckman and 26-year-old Stephanie Brown who both appear on the special. So, guys, thanks for being here.


PINSKY: What do you want to tell people? HIV is no longer a death sentence.

BROWN: Exactly. Exactly. You can live 60-plus years, 70-plus years with HIV.

PINSKY: And you guys are the new face of HIV.

BROWN: Yes, I guess.


KELLY GLUCKMAN, STAR, "IM POSITIVE": It`s crazy. Never thought of it that way.

PINSKY: You are. I mean, the condition affects 1.2 million Americans. People, still a lot of stigma out there about it?

BROWN: Oh, yes.

GLUCKMAN: Absolutely.

BROWN: Absolutely. Yes. And that`s one of the biggest things that I wanted to do the documentary for is to get rid of that stigma because it hurts. It really hurts. It affects --

PINSKY: When chronicles the lives of young people, the people keep asking me is, how do they have romantic relationships? Do they still have sex?


BROWN: Yes, it`s not a sex handicap.


BROWN: You can still have sex. The whole point of the awareness is the condom use. That`s all it is.

PINSKY: Condom. Reduce viral load -- reduces the risk by 96 percent. There`s something called pre-exposure prophylaxis that you can discuss with your doctor if you want. But both of you still have romantic relationships. In fact, we look at your romantic relationship during the special.

GLUCKMAN: Sure do.

PINSKY: A little rocky.

GLUCKMAN: A little bit.

PINSKY: Still mad at him.


PINSKY: Is there a boyfriend now, Stephanie?

BROWN: No. No boyfriend.

PINSKY: All right. Now, you`ve been living with this disease for six years now. Not with the -- infection -- qualify this as a disease at this point? Just really sort of an infection. Yes. And, there was a difficult moment during the making of this documentary. Take a look at this.


BROWN: My spirits were incredibly low. Self-esteem was shot. It`s just that whole phase of nobody wants me, nobody`s going to want me, nobody`s going to -- excuse me.


PINSKY: Both of you have had feelings like that. I`ve talked -- Kelly, you`re actually reacting to Stephanie`s feelings right now.

GLUCKMAN: Yes, I can relate to them.

PINSKY: No one`s going to want me.

GLUCKMAN: Yes, I mean, the fear that no one`s going to want you is very real.

PINSKY: You`re going to be alone.

BROWN: Right.

PINSKY: Family, though, you know, in the documentary, we will see you hugging and kissing and sharing food with family members and friends. They don`t seem to be afraid of infection. They don`t seem to maintain the stigma or the ignorance about this disease, right?

BROWN: Right.

PINSKY: How about romantic partners? That`s really -- when you`re your age, that`s where a lot of that sort of fear goes. Do people reject you?

BROWN: I`ve had a couple rejections just off of telling my status. I`ve had one where we were on a date and he just kind of changed the subject. He asked me, tell him a secret. And I told him why I speak. I`m an HIV educator. And because I`ve been living with it for six years, and we just -- that was the last time I saw him.

PINSKY: Kelly?

GLUCKMAN: I`ve been lucky to not have been rejected very much.


GLUCKMAN: I`ve had, you know, one instance in particular where, you know, we just kissed and he asked me if he had anything to be afraid of.

PINSKY: Just from kissing?

GLUCKMAN: I told him after we kissed and we touched a little bit, but I pulled him aside and I said, you know, I`m having fun and if this is going to go any further, I need to tell you this. I told him, and he avoided me for like six or seven days, and later, he came up to me and asked me if he had anything to worry about.

PINSKY: Just from kissing? Wow. Let`s talk to somebody special for Stephanie. She`s on the phone right now. It is Stephanie`s mom, Melissa Bryant. Take us back to how you felt, Melissa, when Stephanie told you that she was HIV positive.

VOICE OF MELISSA BRYANT, STEPHANIE BROWN`S MOTHER: First of all, I`d like to say hi to everyone. Hi, Dr. Drew. The -- when she first told me that she was HIV positive, I felt broken. I felt afraid for her. You`re all going to have to excuse me if I get emotional.

PINSKY: Stephanie warned me you`d cry, Melissa.

BRYANT: Say that again? I`m sorry.

PINSKY: Stephanie warned me that you were a crier, that you`d be crying about this. Let me support you in this and say, Melissa, when you and I back in the day were learning about this condition, it was a death sentence. Isn`t it striking how different it is now?

BRYANT: Yes. Because the first time that I heard the three letters, HIV, you know, my first thought was death, like, I`m not going to have her within a year, she`s not going to be here with me. And that`s what scared me the most. But through education, through learning about it, I know now that it`s life.

PINSKY: Stephanie, you want to comment?

BROWN: Mom, it`s OK. Please stop crying.


BRYANT: I know. You know how I get, baby?

BROWN: Yes, I know, I know. I know it`s still rough for her. I mean, it`s a natural fear that parents have.

PINSKY: Of course.

BROWN: And she has the fear now of me being out and telling my story. The hate crimes that are still out there.

PINSKY: Oh, my.

BROWN: And, at first, when I first got diagnosed, me and her would bump heads a lot, because I was still accepting, trying to accept the fact that I was HIV positive.

PINSKY: Well, you guys have -- now that you have accepted, some of what you do publicly being on a show like this, educating, advocating, is really part of managing the condition, isn`t it?

BROWN: Exactly.

PINSKY: Makes you feel --

GLUCKMAN: For me, yes.

PINSKY: For Kelly for sure. Stephanie, I`ve heard you say the same thing. I can talk to you guys all day. There`s so much more to talk about. And we get into a lot of it on -- in this special and in the after- show, too. We had a really interesting conversation last night about the African-American community and misconceptions there.

There are special needs in different communities. The important thing to remember is this thing is with us. These guys are going to visit the White House tomorrow because the White House is taking an interest in it. They think it`s something very, very important. It`s become the forgotten epidemic in a way.

A lot of young people living with it. Stephanie Brown, Kelly Gluckman, thank you so much for sharing the stories and being a part of all this.

Next up, I`m going to talk to the third member of this cast. He`s a young man who tells us why he agreed to go public about his HIV status. There he is on a billboard with his dad. Stay with us.



OTIS HARRIS, STAR, "I`M POSITIVE": I did get mad at myself. I was very disappointed because of the simple fact that I had a flashback of that night where I did not use protection.

It did make me realize that, OK, if I don`t take care of myself, I mean, like, I could really die. I could be gone.


PINSKY: That is my next guest, 25-year-old Otis Harris. Otis is also featured in the documentary airing this Saturday, which is World AIDS Day, 7:00 p.m., MTV. Otis, we have a lot to talk about.

HARRIS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

PINSKY: So, how you doing now?

HARRIS: I`m good.

PINSKY: You`re in a monogamous relationship.


PINSKY: And how do you guys manage that? He`s HIV negative. You`re HIV positive.

HARRIS: Yes. Just use protection.

PINSKY: Just condom? Condom, condom, condom.

HARRIS: Yes and get tested regularly.

PINSKY: Keep your viral loads now. Get him tested. Has he ever thought about taking any anti-viral medicine, himself?

HARRIS: No. We haven`t spoke about that yet, but we will be.

PINSKY: What do you want people to know about this documentary, why you chose to do it?

HARRIS: I want people to understand that HIV is alive, is real. And there are individuals out there who are HIV positive and --

PINSKY: They look like everybody else.

HARRIS: Exactly. Exactly.

PINSKY: They don`t have a big "H" on their forehead.

HARRIS: Exactly. Exactly. We can live a normal, healthy life like anyone else as long as we take care of ourselves.


HARRIS: We`re good.

PINSKY: Yes. And you decided to do this because?

HARRIS: I did it because I want people to realize that HIV doesn`t have a face. And in order for the awareness, for me to bring some awareness to it, it feels like I had to put my face out there, because I wanted HIV to end with me, if I could have.


HARRIS: But I would just feel like I would do any and everything I can in order for it to -- you know, for people to be understanding about HIV.

PINSKY: And you had a mentor, sort of another -- a woman, right, with HIV who helped you sort of come to terms with it and go ahead and properly get engaged in treatment. Is that what inspired you to go ahead and help other people?

HARRIS: Exactly. And the minute -- because I feel like with anyone who is HIV positive, you may not want to deal with, you know, telling anyone, like your family or friends, whatever. Having someone who`s walking in the same shoes as you are, it is really a good support.

PINSKY: You want to be a part of that.

HARRIS: Oh, yes.

PINSKY: I think -- is it not true, control room, that we have some footage of the billboard? Let`s look at this. This is you and your dad. This is a really cute scene. There you are. There`s your dad next to you.


PINSKY: This is you rolling up to take a look at the billboard the first time, right?

HARRIS: Oh, yes.

PINSKY: That`s your dad. How did he get involved in all this?

HARRIS: I asked dad when I got the --

PINSKY: There`s your dad.

HARRIS: Yes. As soon as he asked me, as soon as I got the call that I would be doing a Greater than AIDS campaign, I asked dad, will you do this with me? He`s like, oh, sure, son, I`ll do it with you. I`m like, OK.

PINSKY: How about when you first told him you were HIV positive?

HARRIS: Oh, boy. I was so nervous when I told him, because I thought he was going to turn his back on me. I thought he wouldn`t want to, you know, have anything to do with me. But he said those words where, you know, just promise me you`ll take care of my son, and when he said that, I was like, OK, I promise.

PINSKY: There`s a lot of misconceptions in the African-American community, aren`t there? You wanted to -- I`ve got to end this conversation in, like, ten seconds, but give me a one sentence on that.

HARRIS: Here are a lot of people who think that a person as, you know, with African-American community that no one is infected or affected by it. We are one of the ones who are getting it the most.


HARRIS: And so, with the fact that I want people to understand, to get educated.

PINSKY: Be proactive, get treatment.


PINSKY: It can happen to you.

HARRIS: Exactly.

PINSKY: Thank you, Otis. Thank you to Otis Harris, Kelly Gluckman, Stephanie Brown. "I`m positive" airs this Saturday, 7:00 p.m., MTV. And then, join me online for the after-show at, 8:00 p.m. Be right back.


PINSKY: Thank you to all of my guests. I don`t have time to name each of you tonight. Check out the "I`m Positive" special on MTV, 7;00 p.m. this Saturday. See you next time. Thanks for watching. Thanks for calling. A reminder, Nancy Grace starts right now.