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"Perfect Son" Murder Police Interrogation Video Released
Aired December 5, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Highland township. The perfect son, the high school valedictorian, star athlete turned U of M biology major, at this hour accused in the vicious murder of his own mother, mother of two Ruth Pyne`s body found dead in the garage by her 10- year-old little girl, Pyne bludgeoned, stabled 16 times in the neck. We obtain the chilling 911 call. Hair clutched in the dead mother`s hand ID`d. Grainy surveillance video from the morning Mommy is murdered. Is a car spotted in front of the murder scene at the time of death?
Bombshell tonight. The so-called perfect son caught on tape, Jeffrey Pyne`s raw and uncensored police interrogation just hours after his mother found dead. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you do anything at all to hurt your mom?
JEFFREY PYNE, ACCUSED OF MURDERING MOTHER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In any way, shape or form?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no idea how your mom died or anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your mom was murdered. Someone killed your mom. It`s not an accident.
PYNE: I didn`t say anything hurtful to her, nothing. I can`t even -- how could somebody do this? I`m having a hard enough time...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) she was pale and there was blood.
PYNE: I really don`t know. I have no idea. I don`t think she would hurt herself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s wrong with your hands?
PYNE: This was from work today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coupled with massive blisters.
PYNE: I was flipping over a pallet (INAUDIBLE) check the (INAUDIBLE) I was flipping it over, my hand got caught in there, just tore off the skin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were the last person that we know that saw your mom alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. The perfect son accused in the vicious murder of his own mother caught on tape, Jeff Pyne`s raw, uncensored police interrogation just hours after his mother found dead. We have the video.
We are taking your calls. Roll that video, Liz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeff, obviously you talked to your dad and you know that your mom has passed away. What did he tell you happened?
PYNE: He doesn`t know what happened. He said he saw her -- (INAUDIBLE) he saw her by the door, that she was pale and there was blood. He doesn`t know what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think happened?
PYNE: I really don`t know. I have no idea. I don`t think she would hurt herself. She`s not that type of person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has she ever tried to hurt herself before?
PYNE: Not that I`d ever know of. She`s never talked to me of, like, suicide or anything like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you had the domestic situation with your mom, where your mom came at you upstairs, was there any bitterness going on between you and the mom at all, as far as her going to jail and being upset with you because she ended up in jail for the amount of time that she was there?
PYNE: No. She gets upset with my dad. She blames all of her problems on him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On your dad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that cause problems between you and your mom over the dynamics of how things are going on at the house?
PYNE: Not really. I mean, I don`t have a problem with my mom. I`ve never had a problem with her. All I -- the only issue I had was I wanted her to take medicine. And she -- the nature of the illness, she didn`t want to take it. That`s the only problem that I ever had with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Just hours after his mother is found brutally bludgeoned and stabbed to death, 16 stab wounds to the neck and torso, this is her son under police interrogation. You are seeing him within hours after learning his mother has been murdered.
What do we learn? First of all, out to you, Matt Zarrell. He`s talking about the situation with his mother. What we know -- I don`t know if the jury knows it yet or not -- is that she began attacking him, beating him, trying to strangle him to death when he was only 8 years old.
We also know that his little sister, Julia, is now the subject of her hatred. Now, remember, she`s not herself, so to speak. She`s manic- depressive. And when she becomes manic, she does these things. When she`s on meds, she regrets them immediately. But the bottom line is, Matt Zarrell, she has been attacking this son, now in his 20s, since he was 8 years old.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, you`re right. But what he details on the interrogation tape is that at the day of the murder, everything was fine. He says that when the mother got home from getting groceries, which we`ve seen -- which was revealed on surveillance tape, Pyne says, I gave her a hug after we put the groceries away and she was fine. He said, We didn`t even argue today.
GRACE: Out to Aaron Brehove, body language expert joining me out of D.C. Aaron, you have been evaluating his statement. He talks for hours. What do you see, Aaron?
AARON BREHOVE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, we see somebody that`s very emotional. This is obviously a very emotional case for him. His mother is passed away...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Wait! Wait, wait, wait, wait! Zarrell, doesn`t -- don`t police say he never shed a single tear?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy. They say, in fact, that he made motions to his eyes like he was crying, but there was no redness around his eyes and no tears.
GRACE: All right, what were you saying, Brehove, about emotional?
BREHOVE: He is displaying body language. You see, I can`t -- we can`t see in the video if there`s tears here, but it does look he`s having emotion. He is -- there is a lot of anxiety here.
He`s asked a -- he`s asked a question, or he`s told that, We need to get -- we need to clear you of this crime. He`s audible. He says no. He says, I agree, we need to clear me of this crime.
Then they say, You may have been the last person to see your mother alive. And he looks down, he pauses for a minute, doesn`t really -- doesn`t make any audible statement there, which is indicative of somebody that`s being deceptive. They aren`t able to make audible statements.
But then he comes back and he makes a statement a little bit later, and you`re wondering, is this because of the emotion or because of deception? It`s one or the other. But this is an emotional case, and I could -- and I could see how he may just not be crying there. But we need to watch a little bit more to see a little more detail about it.
GRACE: OK, you know what, Aaron? Let`s do just that. Here you see the so-called perfect son. He stands accused in the brutal murder of his own mother. His 10-year-old sister, Julia, comes home with her father to find the mother`s dead body, the blood already coagulating there in the family`s garage. The home is still neat as a pin. The mother`s blood is found on the laundry room water faucet. Someone attempted to clean up. But other than that, not much attaching this young man to his mother`s murder.
So let`s see his demeanor. This is just hours after he learns his mom is dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PYNE: She thought that I stole her debit card from her, which I hadn`t. I had given it back to her in the car. She was just being manic. And she just got really angry, and I was telling her, No, no, I didn`t do it, I didn`t take it.
And that was the first time that she hit me. She just open-handed, like, smacked me across the face.
I saw her getting really mad and she started, like, raising her hand and stuff. And I stood up and just kind of put my hands on her wrists, like, not grabbing them, just, like, trying to calm her down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.
PYNE: And -- but she just -- she just snapped and just smacked me. I mean, it wasn`t a big deal, but...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has your mom accused you of anything goofy or something out of the ordinary in the last few days?
PYNE: She (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, you say she`s been paranoid. I mean, has she -- has she been paranoid with you for any reason the last few days?
PYNE: No. It`s mostly just, like, with bank accounts and stuff with my dad, stuff like that, not anything, like, with me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your mom was not upset or anything today before you left?
PYNE: No. She was fine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
PYNE: I gave her a hug after we put the groceries away, and she was fine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was your car parked in the driveway or on the street when you left?
PYNE: When I left to come here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, when you left to go to work.
PYNE: It`s in the driveway. I always park it in the driveway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Michael Christian, senior field producer out of "In Session." He`s been following the case since the get-go.
Michael Christian, I find his demeanor -- and look, I`m not convinced the state has the evidence to convict this guy, all right? And the other thing, does the name O.J. Simpson ring a bell, Michael Christian, because that jury was so angry at perceived wrongs by the LAPD, many people believe they practiced jury nullification, that even though they thought there may have been evidence to convict Simpson, they were so angry about the way the case was handled, they came back with a not guilty. That`s one theory.
But what I`m saying here is, this jury may be so disgusted at this mother attacking her own defenseless children, trying to choke them, beat them, slap them, harangue them, abuse them, for years since they were tiny children, they may say, You know what? She had it coming. A lot of people feel that way about child abusers.
So I`m not saying that jury nullification may not happen here, but what I want to hear from you is, how did the jury react when they see Pyne sitting there, pretty much cool as a cucumber, just hours after his mom is found stabled in the neck to death in the garage?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, it`s fascinating, Nancy, because they`re clearly paying a lot of attention, these jurors. But those incidents that you showed he was describing, where his mother slapped him because she thought he`d stolen a debit card or where she attacked him in the house -- those were in the past. He said several times during this video he and his mother had been getting along very well, that when she was on her medication, everything was fine. He loved her. They had no argument that day whatsoever, that again, those incidents were in the past.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeff, somebody singled your mom out today and committed a violent act today against your mom for a reason that we can`t explain.
PYNE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s why we`re asking you the questions that we`re asking you.
PYNE: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, we have a lot of questions and not a lot of answers. And you know, we -- nobody can tell us why someone would do this to your mom and single your mom out of all people.
PYNE: I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Jenny in Illinois. Hi, Jenny. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Does the son have an alibi?
GRACE: Yes, he has an alibi, Jenny. He says that he fiddled around the house that morning. Then he had a good conversation with his mother. His mother wasn`t off the rocker. She was on her meds. Everything was fine, that his mom left sometime during the morning to get groceries or pick up something from the store, came back, he was still there, and she went upstairs to lay down, that soon after that, he left.
He says then he goes to a neighbor, not next door but in the neighborhood, and transplanted lilac bushes, all right? Then he says he left her a message that he thought she was out of town at the time, that he was leaving the house and that he went on to work.
Some of that has been corroborated, but the lilac story has got a problem. What about it, Matt Zarrell?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy. This witness`s name is Diane Needham. She was actually Jeffrey Pyne`s 10th grade geography teacher. And over the course of six years, Pyne has worked for her doing various odd jobs around the house.
Now, Needham testified in court that Pyne did not fix the lilac bushes the day he claims he does, the day of the murder, but in fact, did it four days earlier on May 23rd, not May 27th.
GRACE: Joining me right now is Diane Needham. Diane testified regarding Pyne`s alibi. She is one of his former teachers.
And at trial, Michael Christian, what did she say?
CHRISTIAN: She said that she is insistent, she`s absolutely sure that those lilac bushes, five of them, were transplanted on Monday, May 23rd, not Friday, May 27th. She says she knows that. She wasn`t home at the time. She was baby-sitting for her grandson at her daughter`s home, so she did not actually see Jeffrey Pyne doing it. But she says she knows it was done that day because she came home that night, they were done. And the next day, Tuesday the 24th, she personally mulched them.
Now, Jeffrey Pyne told police in this interrogation video that he did that on Friday the 27th, the day his mother was murdered. Now, the defense in cross-examination of Jeffrey Pyne said, Well, couldn`t you both be right and both be wrong? Maybe he did some of them on Monday and some of them on Friday? Diane Needham said, No, I`m sorry, they were all transplanted on Monday the 23rd.
GRACE: Oh! With me right now is Diane Needham, who went under oath and testified in this case not only regarding the transplant of the lilac bushes and the mulching and the timeline, she`s also a former teacher of Jeffrey Pyne`s. Ms. Needham, thank you for being with us.
DIANE NEEDHAM, JEFFREY PYNE`S FORMER TEACHER (via telephone): You`re welcome.
GRACE: Ms. Needham, I want to start before the mother was killed. What was he like in school, and what did you teach him?
NEEDHAM: I taught geography. He was an excellent student, never had any problems with him. I tried to not call on him all the time because I knew he always would know the answers, just a very bright student.
GRACE: Ms. Needham, at the time, did you know his mother had a mental illness?
NEEDHAM: I didn`t know that until 2010.
GRACE: And how did you learn about it?
NEEDHAM: Jeffrey came to work for me after the death of my husband. At that time, I had five acres, and so he helped me with all my gardens and yard work.
And in July of 2010, I called him right after the police had taken his mother away, and he just told me that she had come after him with a knife and that the police had come. And so I told him I would talk to him later. But he seemed very calm and taking it very well.
GRACE: Well, you know, I`ve been thinking about that, Ms. Needham, and I guess when you`ve been being attacked by your own mother violently since you were a little boy -- you know, as far back as I know, age 8, maybe earlier -- at a certain point, you become stoic. What else can you do? You`re in the home with her every single day, not knowing what`s going to happen next. It`s got to be awful.
GRACE: The day of the murder, what do you recall happening that day?
NEEDHAM: I didn`t have any contact with Jeffrey except that he called me. I was baby-sitting at my daughter`s, so he called me on my cell phone. At the time, my grandson was napping, so I didn`t answer the phone because I was holding him while he was napping.
And Jeffrey called me about 2:40 and said that he had been at my house, that he hadn`t seen me since I had gotten back from South Carolina, where I was gone for two weeks, and that he just would like to see me and that he had just been checking things out and sweeping up.
GRACE: So in that message, did he mention then the transplant of the lilac bushes?
NEEDHAM: No, he did not.
GRACE: OK. Did he mention anything else the day his mother was murdered?
GRACE: OK. Why are you so sure that he`s wrong about the day he did the yard work? Because that`s his alibi, he did yard work in your yard and then went on to work.
NEEDHAM: Well, I had been baby-sitting on that Monday, and the next day, I was not needed. And so when I drove in my yard that Monday evening and saw the lawn had been mowed and the lilacs had been transplanted, I was so surprised because Jeffrey doesn`t always -- isn`t always able to identify plants.
And I was just surprised that he realized which were the lilacs that I wanted transplanted, and there they were. And I had the next day free to mulch them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s wrong with your hands?
PYNE: This is from work today. I was flipping over a pallet on the way to check the bathrooms, and I was flipping it over and my hand got caught in there, and it just tore off the skin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I see it? Can you undo that?
PYNE: Yes, you can unpull that and see it. Just ripped the skin right off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) That looks painful.
PYNE: It kind of stings when you push on it. I`m just trying to keep it covered up, so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just -- it almost looks like a blister.
PYNE: It just tore the skin right off. There was, like, skin hanging on it, and I just, like, peeled it off, washed my hands, put some alcohol swab on it, so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was it?
PYNE: No. Well, I put on a bandage at work. But the lady at the ambulance, when I got here, she gave me this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And that from a pallet at work?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was that pallet near the bathroom you said?
PYNE: Yes, it`s around the back. As you`re walking to it, it just -- was putting it back on the stack there and got my hands caught.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it a wooden pallet?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you bleed a lot or just a little bit?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. You are seeing a long police interrogation caught on tape that we have obtained. Here you see the so-called perfect son. His name, Jeff Pyne, a U of M biology major, valedictorian, star athlete, the works. This is him just hours after he learns his mother, Ruth Pyne, has been bludgeoned and stabbed to death, found by his little sister in their own garage.
Now look at his demeanor.
Also with me tonight, a very special guest, his alibi, Diane Needham. He insists at the time his mother was murdered, he was in her yard transplanting lilac bushes for her. He also did jobs for her around her home, her lawn. She had several acres of land.
With me is Diane Needham. Miss Needham, you stated under oath that you found -- it was unusual for him to call and leave a detailed message that in all the years he had worked for you, he had never done that.
DIANE NEEDHAM, JEFFREY PYNE`S FORMER TEACHER: Not that I recall.
GRACE: And on that day, did he also tell you -- I`m looking at your testimony -- that he was on his, quote, "on his way to Spicer`s Orchard"?
GRACE: That is unusual. Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, Seema Iyer, Peter Odom.
All right, first to you, Seema Iyer, I find it highly unusual that of all the years he works for her, on this day of all, he calls this woman, who he believes to be out of town, and he says, by the way, I`m on my way to work. It`s almost as if he`s setting up an alibi. However, this is not conclusive. This has not convinced me beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed a murder on his own mother.
SEEMA IYER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Are you kidding, Nancy? This is a slam dunk for the prosecution. They have motive. They have opportunity. They have means --
GRACE: Motive? They have motive. She`s been beating him since he was 8. Why today? Why would he kill her today?
IYER: This has just been building --
GRACE: She`s on her meds. She`s behaving.
IYER: -- up for years, Nancy. You know what, I`ll tell you why today. Because Miss Needham, she got up there, not only did she crush the alibi, she gave more motive that the mother was restrictive, she was religious, she didn`t believe in premarital sex.
This is a 22-year-old guy with a girlfriend. He wants to have sex, he wants to have freedom, he wants her to be compliant. Got rid of her.
GRACE: Seema Iyer is -- somehow I notice no matter what case we discuss, it all, for you anyway, boils back down to sex. Sex in some way. You know what? I don`t think he cares what his mommy thinks about sex. If he`s 23 years old, he`s out doing it, all right?
So, Eleanor Odom, what about jury nullification here? Even if they cobble together these pieces, has the state proven it?
ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: I don`t know that they`ve proven it beyond a reasonable doubt. And I really take issue with a slam dunk case. Nothing is a slam dunk case, Nancy. You and I both know that.
GRACE: Well, you know what, Eleanor? When you`ve tried enough cases, when you`ve actually gone into court and tried a lot of cases, you know there`s never a slam dunk. Do I have to say O.J. Simpson and tot mom again?
All right, Odom, weigh in.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, they`ve got physical evidence in terms of the cuts on his hand. They`ve got the motive.
GRACE: Put him up, please.
P. ODOM: They`ve got the motive.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait.
P. ODOM: All the abuse -- the years of abuse. And here`s another --
GRACE: Why do you all keep talking about motive?
P. ODOM: And here`s another thing.
GRACE: And say he doesn`t have to prove motive, he`s got cuts on his hands, he did go to work at Spicer`s Orchard that day. He not only chased a goat -- have you ever done that, Peter Odom? I bet you haven`t. And he also moved palettes.
P. ODOM: But here`s what his defense seems to be, Nancy.
GRACE: I bet you don`t do that in your fancy law office where you`re charging all those dope dealers and all that money. Go ahead.
P. ODOM: His defense seems to be, my mother abused me for so many years and I was so mad that I didn`t kill her. Come on. He had motive and they have absolutely proven that he had the opportunity to do it.
GRACE: You know what?
P. ODOM: They`re going to get this guy.
GRACE: I`m really glad I went to Peter Odom and Seema Iyer because if all they can say is the state`s got motive.
IYER: And DNA.
GRACE: That`s the best you`ve got?
IYER: No. They`ve got --
GRACE: What DNA?
P. ODOM: Motive, opportunity and intent.
GRACE: What DNA?
IYER: The mitochondrial DNA also points it out to the defendant. That he cannot be excluded so they also have DNA.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa.
IYER: And they`ve also (INAUDIBLE) an alibi.
GRACE: Doesn`t identify -- you know, you can get a DNA match -- to Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, Columbia.
Isn`t it true, Doctor Dupre, that DNA can isolate an individual, say, to maybe one and two or three million, right?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, Nancy. Nuclear DNA especially can do that. It`s very good at that. However, mitochondrial DNA is totally different. So we look at mitochondrial DNA, it`s passed down from the maternal lineage. That means that basically multiple maternal relative, brothers, sisters, cousin, can actually have the same mitochondrial DNA.
GRACE: And also to you, Woodrow Tripp, former police commander.
Tripp, watch your monitor and see what I`m doing, please. In a case like this, we know that she was beaten. We know that she was stabbed around the neck. We know that there was hand-to-hand combat.
Woody, isn`t it true that very often homicide victims clutch at their neck during the struggle, they get fiber, they get DNA under their nails and the DNA under her nails is her DNA. So there`s nothing here pointing to Jeff Pyne.
WOODROW TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: You know, Nancy, we may be flipping the script on this, because we`ve got defense attorneys who are saying the state has got a great case and now we`ve got a cop with 30 plus years experience saying --
GRACE: Hey, I`m not -- I`m not saying he`s innocent. Don`t kid me wrong. I am saying, however, that I don`t think the state has proven the case and they don`t even have DNA. But talk to me, Woody, about how victims get their own, their own flesh under their fingernails and their own hair in their hands.
TRIPP: Absolutely they do. And in furtherance of that, Nancy, if this was a spontaneous crime, which we all believe from everything that was there, I can`t see where there`s just such an absence of evidence as it concerns the defendant and in reference to the victim. Very little evidence there with such a spontaneous crime.
You know, the hair fibers, they`re saying that it was a possibility that it was his. Well, there`s also the fact that they`re her hair. So I`m just not seeing that. And yes, fingernail filings, it`s her DNA that`s underneath it. Again, that seems very odd considering that this was a violent struggle that led to a stabbing.
GRACE: And you know, another thing, Woody, I`m not saying he didn`t do it. But this is America where you are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. All right? I get what the prosecution is doing. But here is the deal, Woody. If I`m sitting on the jury and I see this mother has been beating him and strangling him since he was 8 years old and now she`s doing it to the little sister, I might not be so worried about her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How well does everybody in the house get along?
PYNE: We all get along really well, especially since she`s been on her medication. She -- I don`t know if I told you, but she`s bipolar. Since I think it was about September we had her on medication, and she`s been getting better every week, really. And as she gets better, everybody`s relationship in the house gets better.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand there was a time it wasn`t so good?
PYNE: Well, it`s -- when she goes manic, it puts a lot of stress on us all. And it`s tough around the house. But it hasn`t been that way in a long time, since September.
I also work for a lady who lives a few miles down the road from me. I do yard work and I`m repainting her basement for her. I was just there today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You said she`s out of town right now?
PYNE: I`m thinking she is. I gave her a call actually today to let her know I was still working for her and taking care of stuff around the house. That I thought she would be back by now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. There`s a lot of confusion about the day that he was there doing yard work for his neighbor, Diane Needham.
To Dr. Bethany Marshal, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers." Now here`s a problem for me. And, while I`m not saying I think he`s innocent, I`m saying that this -- the evidence is not really proving it, but here`s the deal, Bethany. This is just hours after he was supposed to be on his hands and knees in that lady`s yard transplanting lilac bushes.
Now I know what I did today. I can tell you what I`ve been doing since 5:00 this morning, Bethany. OK?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Right.
GRACE: So for him to have lied about what he was doing that day makes me think that there`s a nefarious reason for the lie. Now, hey, you know what? It could have been something as simple as I circled back to my house because I forgot my work boots and my mom was dead on the garage floor and I left.
What if it`s that? I mean it could be anything. But when you lie about your alibi, you`re pretty much screwed.
MARSHALL: Not -- not only does he lie, Nancy, but he is not forthcoming with a lot of theories and details about what he thinks happen. For instance, if he wasn`t guilty, he might have said oh, my god, she was having a fight with the neighbor or my mom and dad were fighting or she`s been more homicidal or suicidal lately.
He`s giving the interrogator the bare minimum. You have to remember this guy has been interrogated his entire life. By whom? By his mother. She was the great interrogator. She was mentally ill. She hated him. She was punitive, abusive, malicious, probably had homicidal intent towards him so he`s doing what the interrogator what he did with her. He`s detached.
GRACE: What happens to a child when it gets beaten all the time and verbally attacked, you know, since a very young age? The first one he remembers is age 8.
MARSHALL: What happens is they have what`s called isolation of affect, meaning that they isolate their feelings and put them away in a little box. Primarily. Secondarily, because of that, they can`t metabolize or digest what`s happening to them, so at a certain point they do snap, because they don`t know how to cope. Remember, this mother hated him, and children feel about their parents how their parents feel about them.
GRACE: You know, Michael Christian, senior field producer, "In Session," you`ve been on the case from the very beginning. I can`t remember a time that I did not connect with a victim. But for some reason in this case, I`m connecting with him. Maybe it`s because of my son, John David.
I cannot even imagine somebody beating him, striking him in the face, trying to strangle him or hurt him, which is probably around the time all this started with Jeff Pyne, around 5 years old. We know it was 8, because that`s his first recollection of it. That doesn`t mean it didn`t happen before.
So she`s had this mental illness all these years, I just keep thinking about the little boy trying to hide in the house, trying to get away from his own mother. Nobody was at home to protect him. The father was out working. So he took the beatings and the outbursts and now it`s time for the little girl to start getting it. That`s who I`m just wondering if the jury is also identifying with Jeff Pyne?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, it`s interesting you say all that, Nancy, and yet at the same time we`ve heard how protective Jeff Pyne could be of his mother. He talked about how much he`d loved his mother. He told in the police interrogation that he loved his mother. At her funeral, the week after her death, he gave the eulogy.
He talked about how much he loved his mother, how he thanked her because of his love of reading came from her, his love of gardening and working with plants came from her. And how much he was going to miss her. So if he has those feelings, they`re certainly mixed in with kind feelings, with good feelings that other people saw as well.
GRACE: Well, the other thing is this. To you, Dave Mack, talk show host with Clear Channel.
Dave, I know when I was a tangential victim of murder, when my fiance was murdered, I was in no shape to have this conversation like he`s having with the police, no way. And he never asked how was my mother murdered? I mean at some point -- I mean, I recall finding out that Keith was murdered. I thought he had been killed in a car crash. And then I happened to find out -- I didn`t think to ask it either, but I was out of my mind. This guy is so coherent.
DAVE MACK, MORNING TALK SHOW HOST, CLEAR CHANNEL WAAX RADIO: Well, he`s so coherent because he is detached, Nancy. But break down that timeline of what he claims versus what`s been proven and you back up and you find out that he woke up at 10:00, his mom went to the grocery store. The car -- going and leaving and not -- and going to work. This guy just made up something that he thought was plausible, but if you noticed, he put himself in the garage with those groceries, which is where the body was found. That was kind of interesting.
And on top of that, we know that he`s got neighbors placing his car behind hers in the driveway from 11:00 to 1:40. He`s gone by 2:10. The body is found at 2:35.
GRACE: Welcome back. We`ve obtained hours of interrogation interviews of Jeffrey Pyne, the so-called perfect son. This is just hours after he finds out his mother is murdered.
Linda, Pennsylvania, hi, Linda, what`s your question?
LINDA, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. Love you and love the twins.
GRACE: Thank you.
LINDA: They`re really getting big. They`re beautiful.
GRACE: I know, I know.
LINDA: I`m calling because I have a question about this young man. Since there is a history of mental illness in the family, noted by the mother being slightly off, is it possible that this man, young man run free, or can they incarcerate him at this moment on suspicion?
GRACE: Well, actually --
LINDA: Or will he be free to just roam?
GRACE: No, no, no, no. He has been arrested and is in the middle of trial. So he`s not out roaming around.
GRACE: We remember American hero Army Sergeant Jonathan Richardson, 24, Bald Knob, Arkansas. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Meritorious Service Medal. Loved fishing, cars. Parents, James and Sharon, brother, Jason, sister, Jasmine, widow, Rachel.
Jonathan Richardson, American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anybody that you can think of that`s capable of harming your mother? Or anybody out there that you can think of that would want to harm your mother?
PYNE: I can`t. I mean, she`s always been a really nice lady.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can`t think of anyone?
PYNE: I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Look at his demeanor. Remember, this is just a couple of hours after he discovers his mother has been murdered.
To Josh in Florida. Hi, Josh, what`s your question?
JOSH, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hey, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
JOSH: Quick question. I just -- I don`t know why you don`t think these tapes are enough to convict him. I`m looking at his body language. I`ve seen pictures of his body language and even read that, you know, he barely shed a tear. And I mean -- I mean his mom was just murdered hours earlier. You know, stabbed 16 times. And if my mom was in the hospital with the flu, I`d be crying. And he --
GRACE: You know, Josh in Florida, I got to agree with you. I do not think that these interrogation tapes are helping him at all. No, he doesn`t outright breakdown and confess, but there`s two times, I believe, in all this time he`s been interrogated, he holds his hands to his face.
That`s it, Eleanor. In fact, I think, frankly, that these interrogation tapes are the most damning of all.
And, again, Josh in Florida, I`m not saying I don`t think he did it. I`m saying that I think there`s going to be somebody on that jury that said, you know what, you beat your child since he was 4, 5 years old, you got the death penalty. So be it. That`s what I`m saying, Eleanor.
E. ODOM: Well, Nancy, I agree. And also in court, remember the jury is looking at kind of mild mannered, smart man, who`s certainly not acting up in court and there`s a lot of sympathy going there. And that as prosecutors are kind of like, ah, we don`t want that sympathy going on. But the jury in this case, I think, Nancy, is going to look for reasonable doubt to find him not guilty.
GRACE: We are watching the trial.
Right now, everyone, tomorrow, a chance to save Wesley Glenn that provides a home for the disabled. Go to GAGivesDay.org. Type in Wesley Glen.
"DR. DREW" is up next. Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.