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Mall Killings

Aired December 12, 2012 - 21:00   ET



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got multiple shell casings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mag laying out here that`s fully loaded. About 15, 10 rounds out here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Multiple witnesses are making accounts of a single person.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Last night`s shooting rampage inside an Oregon mall full of holiday shoppers has us asking yet again: why? What drives someone to bring an assault rifle to a mall and kill strangers, then himself?

Tonight, up-to-the-minute news on what his mother says, his neighbor, and witnesses to the shooting.

And Lindsay Lohan`s probation was revoked today. Is she headed back to jail? We will speak to her father, Michael, about his fears for her and what`s behind the scenes in the Lohan family.


PINSKY: Police say the shooter in the Oregon mall rampage was 22- year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts.

The two victims we want to pay homage to them tonight, Cindy Ann Yule. She was a hospice nurse. Her family called her everybody`s friend.

We also lost Steven Forsyth, a father, husband, youth sports coach.

Both of their pictures are alongside of me here.

Joining me to discuss, psychologist David Swanson.

David, let`s talk for just a quick second about this guy. People are trying to understand. First, one of the things I keep getting asked, why males? Are we hearing about young men, 18 to 22, all the time doing these senseless things?

DAVID SWANSON, PSY.D., LICENSED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, look, you know, 18 to 24 we see a lot of mental illnesses kind of break out at this period of time in our lives, right?

PINSKY: Right. So 18 to 24 is the window where things like schizophrenia, bipolar mania.


PINKSY: Drug addiction often manifests then.

SWANSON: Exactly.

PINSKY: These things come on then. And in their earliest phases is when people don`t identify them or are in denial about them, so they can be kind of severe, right?

SWANSON: Very severe.


SWANSON: And in addition to that, you can`t take out the time of year that this occurred. We have seasonal affective disorder. We have a lot of stress during this time of the year. And all of these disorders you just mentioned really kind of -- they peak at times of stress.

PINSKY: They get worse, yes.


PINSKY: OK. So while they may be percolating along, al of a sudden comes on fiercely.

SWANSON: That`s right.

PINSKY: But somebody -- I think people -- people aren`t accustomed to thinking about this. When you look at the West Virginia shooting, for instance. The -- Virginia Tech, I beg your pardon -- Virginia Tech shooting. That was sort of a manic episode.

We look at the Colorado shootings in the theaters. That seemed to have been a schizophrenic episode.


PINSKY: Columbine was a little different, wasn`t it?

SWANSON: Well, Columbine, yes. There were specific targets. Specific victims.

PINSKY: Goal-oriented. Goal-oriented.

SWANSON: It was. And you knew that this was more of a rage crime or an acting out for a wrongdoing. In this case, it`s not that way, is it?

PINSKY: Doesn`t seem that way. And again, I talked to a psychopath expert last night. And she said the same thing.

Psychopaths usually do things that are more goal-directed.


PINSKY: When we talk about somebody being evil, we`re really talking about psychopathy then. When we talk about somebody being sick, which it sounds like this guy may have been, I think that`s sort of the zone we`re going to be with this case, aren`t we?

SWANSON: I think so. I think you`re going to find that in some way, he did have some type of a break. You know, if it`s true that he walked in and said "I`m the shooter," that`s kind of an odd thing to say.

PINSKY: It`s bizarre, right?

SWANSON: It sounds like he`s acting something out. So, yes, I think we`re going to find out in the end.

PINSKY: And is -- would you call that "I`m a shooter" thing sort of grandiosity?

SWANSON: I think grandiosity or there was some psychosis going on where he actually was playing out a part.

PINSKY: He believed something was going on and he was the shooter in that scenario in his head.


PINSKY: Oh, that`s awful.

Now, we`re learning a bit about him. We got something from his Facebook page where he writes, "Hey, my name is Jake. I`m an alcoholic. LOL. Just kidding." I don`t know if he was kidding or not.

"If you were to ask someone that knows me, they would probably say I`m a pretty funny person that takes sarcasm to the max. I`m the kind of person that`s going to do what I want." That`s sort of drug addict stuff.

"I like to think of myself as a bit of an adrenaline junkie." Drug addict thing.

"Yup, that`s right. I`m a junkie LOL." I hope that`s LOL.

So, to me when you read that, you wonder, geez, is he sort of addict- prone? Is that, you know, because methamphetamine can make people do this crazy stuff also, right?


PINSKY: OK. And then this business, you keep hearing him being spoken of by the people as highly energetic, which makes me think about bipolar mania too. So, those --

SWANSON: What caught my attention there was "I`m the kind of person who does what I want." And again, I`m thinking this might have been a person -- I heard he was popular, by the way. So this might have been a person who was acting out some sort of rage as well. You see this sort of start to come to the surface.


PINSKY: Jacob Roberts` mother Tami issued this statement through a friend.

Tami Roberts, is this from -- can control tell me, is this her mom? I thought the mother was -- he had a mother that had died in his youth. I think this is his aunt saying this actually. I think we`re wrong, it`s not the mother.

It`s the woman that raised him who is the aunt. Actually, the biological mother had died.

She says, "Tami Roberts wishes to express her shock and grief at the events at Clackamas Town Center Tuesday." Everything is saying -- everyone`s saying they`re shocked, amazed, quiet guy, well-behaved at school. We have these photos from his Facebook. He evidently was into guns a bit.

Take a look at these. You guys can put them up in the control room.

They include a picture of him, there`s it, with -- no, that`s not it. There`s one of him with a firearm.


PINSKY: Oh, we apparently don`t have clearance to -- he lists on his Facebook shooting as one of his 10 interests.


PINSKY: So there he is sort of -- and again, just because he had a mom that died in his youth, just because he likes shooting, still doesn`t add up to somebody going out and --

SWANSON: Of course not. But --

PINSKY: All right. Go ahead, David, please?

SWANSON: I was going to say, you know, you look at a situation like this, it`s not as odd and bizarre as the Colorado shooter, right?

PINSKY: Right.

SWANSON: But in that case you had --

PINSKY: Is this more impulsive?

SWANSON: Very impulsive.


SWANSON: And in that case you had somebody who was very sophisticated, very intellectual, had like an obsessive interest in rigging and bombing and all of that stuff.

PINSKY: Really bizarre.

SWANSON: This is somebody who was triggered, acted out randomly. Typically, if it`s a crime of passion like you mentioned before, you`re looking for a very specific victim. There was no specific victim here. This was a random act, which makes you think it was a snap.

PINSKY: Yes. I think that`s it. I think you`re right.

And again, people have to think also that the manic patients, the bipolars, are more likely to kill themselves when they`re manic than when they`re depressed and this could have been a manic episode with an impulsive self-destructive impulse.

Joining me by phone, I`ve got this from Oregon, Christi Welday. She actually witnessed events in the Clackamas Town Center. It`s not an easy word to say. She was one of the 10,000 people that were in the mall.

Christi, how are you doing now?

CHRISTIE WELDAY, WITNESSED MALL SHOOTING (via telephone): Well, it`s been a lot harder today than yesterday. I thought I was dealing with it better yesterday. And today, I`ve actually had a rough day. So --

PINSKY: And that`s kind of normal, Christi. People sort of in shock and in sort of the self-preservation mode, and when they let down on the other side is when they feel irritable, jittery, anxious, overwhelmed, flashing back to the events.

Are you having all that stuff?

WELDAY: Oh, yes. I had to actually leave work today and go see a counselor. I have just been bawling all day yesterday. I couldn`t sleep all night. I`ve probably gotten maybe an hour sleep.


WELDAY: And --

PINSKY: And that`s normal.

And, David, I would say hats off to her for getting help because getting help early reduces the risk of acute stress to post-traumatic and - -

SWANSON: Definitely so. Definitely so.

And, you know, you need to tell that story, Christi, over and over and over. You`re going to vacillate between feeling really depressed and really angry. And if you start to feel guilty, that`s normal as well.

So I think having a counselor for anybody who`s exposed to this is the first step to a very healthy recovery in a very traumatic situation.

PINSKY: Christi, it`s certainly not my intent to re-traumatize or revivify the experience. Do you feel comfortable telling us what you saw or too much today?

WELDAY: No, I`m fine. I didn`t even see the gunman. You know, I didn`t even see it. I`m really -- I feel saddened that it was just such a young man, too. You know. But -- I mean, I`ll tell you -- my experience.

PINSKY: Please. Go ahead.

WELDAY: We -- my girlfriend Paula and I just stopped in to have lunch only. We weren`t shopping or anything. And then we had just finished and stood up from the table and pushed in my chair. And when I heard this loud noise, I thought that it was actually like a table or something falling to the ground. And then I heard two more and was looking for it. I didn`t know what it was.

And then, all of a sudden, it was just pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. It kept going. And I knew it was a gun.

My girlfriend Paula had just kind of froze and she just kept screaming, "Are you freaking kidding me right now? Are you freaking kidding me right now?" She just panicked. Then, she was angry about what she was hearing at the same time.


WELDAY: I don`t -- I remember thinking I didn`t know whether to just drop to the ground or to run. And then I just remember grabbing her by her arm and telling her, "Get out! Let`s go." And we were just running to the back door.

And people got -- you know, we got out to the back door, and people were surrounding the back door area like -- I just feel that it was crazy that people stopped right there because if he would have came towards the back door all of those people could have been endangered, you know?

PINSKY: It would have been disastrous. It`s that feeling of helplessness.

You know, Dr. Swanson was telling us something very specific, which is keep retelling the story, own it, you`re fine, you`re here, you`re in one piece -- and we do appreciate your sharing the story, Christi. We`re all trying to make sense of it. Thank you for joining us.

SWANSON: Thanks, Christi.

PINSKY: We have -- now, SWAT teams helping thousands of people out of the mall last night. We`re going to talk to a security expert, he himself a former Navy SEAL, about how that may have helped save lives.

Be right back.


PINSKY: Ten thousand people were in the Portland-area mall when the shooting began. Did they do something right that saved their lives?

First off, I`m going to talk to Justin Turnbow, who saw the gunman outside the mall before the shooting. Justin, what did you see him doing?

JUSTIN TURNBOW, SAW GUNMAN PACING OUTSIDE BEFORE SHOOTING (via telephone): I`d seen him just basically standing around outside when I walked outside, and he was just kind of pacing around over by the Macy`s entrance and everything. And he just was kind of walking around and he just looked really suspicious. He had his hood on and he had a white hockey mask over -- like over his whole face but --

PINKY: Wait, Justin, Justin. Now, we understood that he actually put the gun like in a guitar case or something. Did you see him holding a weapon? Did you see him holding a guitar case?

I mean, there`s a guy pacing around with a -- looking like Freddie Krueger. I mean -- that would freak me out.

TURNBOW: No, it really -- it freaked me out a lot too. But at the time I didn`t see no gun case. I didn`t see anything. He just -- he must have had it somewhere -- one lady I talked to she seen him drop a bunch of bullets and she scared -- or he scared her. And I couldn`t figure out what that was about.

And, all of a sudden, he walked up and he walked right past me as I`m walking out toward the parking lot. And right as that all happened that`s when the shooting started happening.

PINSKY: Did you run the other way? Did you try to do something? What did you do?

TURNBOW: Yes. We -- I had my baby with me, and I had my girlfriend. And honestly, we didn`t know anything that quick or anything that happened. We basically got into the car and right as we`re driving off, we see an ambulance coming up all of a sudden and I counted immediately right then and there, I counted 40 cop cars, and there`s all sorts of cop cars.

PINSKY: But, Justin, do you think oh, my God, that guy must have done something, I`d better go back and talk to the cops?

TURNBOW: Oh, yes. But the whole entire mall right as I got to the mall for some reason, when we were walking around, I just felt a weird vibe. I just -- I felt something was going to happen for some reason. I felt like odd. It was just -- it was just different.

PINSKY: OK. Justin, thank you for that.

Listen, I want to flip over, before I go to another eyewitness, I want to talk to Cade, who is a Navy SEAL.

Cade, I saw you shaking your head when you heard Justin`s report of feeling -- seeing this guy, freaking out. What should you do?

What is -- we`re not trained. What, do you go jump a guy in a -- do you know what I mean? He`s got a baby with him. I feel bad for Justin. What is he supposed to have done?

CADE COURTLEY, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well, what Justin just said, it felt odd. It was weird. Then report it. What`s the worst thing that happens? You say, hey, sorry.

But we`re now living in a time where you go to a public place that you have to be looking around. You have to be aware of what`s going on. It`s putting the cell phone in your pocket, taking the music out of your ears, and look around. You`re surrounded by strangers.

And it`s that one glimpse. It`s that -- I saw somebody in a hockey mask or I saw a piece of weapon sticking below a coat. It`s that one little view, that glimpse that could potentially save you and save a lot of people around you. Report it.

PINSKY: But who do you report it to? What should he have done? Gone to the mall security? Called the cops? Do a 911 call?

I mean, we`re not -- we need specific direction. And this is a great example, because I`m not sure -- if I had a child with me, I see a guy in a ski mask, my instinct would be to get out of there and maybe then call 911. And you call 911 here you`re going to be on hold for five minutes. By then, the whole thing`s over.

COURTLEY: I fully appreciate that. You do whatever you can.

You`ve got a baby? Get out of there.


COURTLEY: Clear the area. I mean, that`s one of the first things. If you see something that doesn`t make sense, clear the area.

PINSKY: All right.

COURTLEY: And if you can tell other people to clear the area, you`re doing a good thing already.

PINSKY: OK. Cade, I`m going to get more tips from you in just a second.

I want to go to another eyewitness. This is Holli Bautista. She was in the mall during the shooting. She joins us via phone.

Holli, what did you see, and how is the community dealing with this?

HOLLI BAUTISTA, EVACUATED FROM MALL AFTER SHOOTING (via telephone): You know, it`s a pretty big shock. This is Portland. You know, in my mind, the area is, you know, fairly safe. I`ve lived here my whole life. I`ve shopped at that mall for years.

You know, I was in the Macy`s up toward the end where it opens up into the food court, and, you know, I think that he makes a good point. Be aware of your surroundings. I was not. I was not paying attention when I heard, you know, loud sounds, just brief. And then a succession of louder sounds and people running, you know, saying, "He`s shooting."

And, you know, at that point you`re kind of going to the fight or flight mode. You know, there were children around me. We were focused on getting toward an exit at the side of the store.

You know, by the time we got there it was fairly populated, so it was difficult getting out briefly. But you know, you look back, I saw people ducking. I am lucky. I did not see him.

But you know, it`s just a really unfortunate event. Very traumatizing for many people.

PINSKY: Dave Swanson, I think people go into a certain amount of denial in something like this, this can`t be happening. This isn`t what this is. Isn`t that sort of a natural defensive reaction?

SWANSON: Completely. I mean, if you`re hearing this and seeing it happen in front of your eyes, it`s almost surreal. It`s almost like you can`t believe what you`re actually seeing.

And the thing that`s most upsetting about this to me is the fact that so many of us -- that we`re in California here. And yet we`re afraid to go shopping in the malls for fear that something like this can happen.

So, look, the fact is we live in a society now where you`re afraid to let your kids play out in front of the house. You know, statistically speaking, when it comes to homicide, you`ve got about a four or five in 100,000 chance of being murdered.

And this was a situation where you had somebody who was psychotic. I`m going to tell you right now, I`m predicting this. And you know I`m on to something. Things like this don`t happen all the time. And for us as a population I think it`s important to be vigilant.


SWANSON: But you`ve got to live your life. And I think it`s so difficult for us to do that nowadays because we`re a society of fear.

PINSKY: Well, but Cade makes the point that even though we`re a society of fear, things do happen, we need to be prepared for them and we can be less afraid if we are prepared.

Teri in Pennsylvania -- Teri.



TERI: I was just curious as to whether anybody`s keeping any kind of data as to whether any of these random shooters have a history of playing these violent video games and whether that could somehow be tied into their actions.

PINSKY: I know that kind of thing in terms of violence in young males has been brought up many, many times. I don`t know that anyone has correlated with people that actually do these things.

Do you know of any data like that?

SWANSON: Well, there is data that would suggest that programming, violent video game or TV programming, more than eight hours a week, would lead to more violent behavior.

PINSKY: But I don`t think it`s been associated with these acts.

SWANSON: Not this kind of act. Most people know the difference between picking up a video game controller and an actual gun.

PINSKY: Right. That`s the psychotic thing.

SWANSON: Exactly.

PINSKY: OK. When we come back, I`m going to go back to Cade and I`m going to get the specific tips that he has that can allow us to live without fear and could potentially save your life if you`re ever in a situation like this.

Be right back.


PINSKY: Welcome back.

We`ve been discussing the shooting tragedy outside of Portland, Oregon. A hospice nurse, a youth sports coach killed by a gunman in a local mall.

Cade Courtley is a Navy SEAL, former Navy SEAL, author of "SEAL Survival Guide."

All right, Cade, we talked about being aware. That`s tip number one.

What other tips do you have for us?

COURTLEY: Well, the concept of the entire book, and you spoke about it earlier, is if you`re prepared, you don`t have to live scared.

Now, what we do is you have to deal with what`s called immediate actions. You`re in a mall and you hear crack, crack. You have to worry about two things -- get down and move. That`s all you have to do in the near term. If you freeze, you don`t want to die that way. It`s harder to hit a moving target.

Now, when you`re moving, you`re trying to move to what`s called cover. And this is any object in the mall that will stop a bullet -- a big planter, a wall, anything like that. That`s what you`re trying to get to.

PINSKY: OK. Let me ask you -- wait, Cade, we don`t know what cover is. I imagine if I were in the mall I would run behind cabinets and clothing racks and things. None of that`s cover, is it?

COURTLEY: If a bullet can go through it, like -- like you said clothing, no, that`s not cover.

PINSKY: So it`s not hiding. It`s getting away from the bullet.

COURTLEY: It is. You`re just trying -- you are moving, moving, and getting behind something that will stop a bullet. And then you will take a second. And I mean really maybe just a second and try and identify the source of that gunfire and move away from it. If there are multiple shooters, the last thing you want to do is you just got out of the "kill zone" and then you just moved into the other shooter.

So just take a second, try and identify it, and continue to move away from the shooting. Do not bunch up.

PINSKY: OK. What`s next?

COURTLEY: Well, your guest earlier spoke about it. She said everybody ran and then they stopped.

Well, a shooter sees a group of people, you know, that`s a huge target right there. And that`s also an opportunity where one bullet can go through multiple people.

So do not group up. And again, continue. I mean, you literally are just bounced one to the next to the next to the next, moving faster and faster the further away from the shooter you are. And go for any kind of an exit you can find. I mean, identifying exits should be something you do when you`re walking through a mall before shooting starts.

If this happens there`s that there, there`s that there, and there`s that there. And then continue on.

PINSKY: Cade, you`ve also explained to me that when people are in extreme situations they lose their fine motor skills. That`s one of the first things to go. So, don`t pick up your phone and start dialing 911. Though imagine there is a time when you do do that. That`s probably when you`ve cleared the scene?

COURTLEY: Absolutely. When you feel like you are out of -- again, the kill zone, you are out of immediate danger. That`s the only time when you`re like OK, let me check myself out, am I hit? Am I wounded?

OK. What can I do to help people around me? What can I do to help the situation?

That`s the only time when you would be getting on your phone and then trying to give as much information to the police as possible -- number of shooters, type of weapons. Are they wearing body armor? Anything you can do to help those cops outside.

And good on those cops. One minute. They responded in one minute. That`s awesome.

PINSKY: And also, you said, also, if you see the cops running in, show your hands, raise your hands up and yell "friendly"?

COURTLEY: Try and imagine what`s going through their mind. All of a sudden their radios are freaking out and they`re saying hey, there`s an active shooting situation at the mall. They don`t know anything. They`re rushing there. They don`t know how many shooters, who the shooters are.

So what you have to do, if you think you`re going to come face to face with law enforcement, is let them see your hands because then trained police officer in law enforcement will know if I see hands, I know there`s not a gun in it and probably not a shooter. Let them see those things.

PINSKY: All right. Thanks, Cade.

Next up, more of your calls. Please call in.

Later on, we`re going to talk about Lindsay Lohan, whether she should go to jail. Talk to her father.

Stay with us.


PINSKY: All right. Now, we want to take your calls on this topic at 855-373-7395. And on the phone, I have a caller, Christopher Dahrens. Now, Christopher, you say you knew Jacob Roberts?


PINSKY: Tell us how and what your relationship --

DAHRENS: He was my roommate.

PINSKY: He was your roommate. When?

DAHRENS: Up until yesterday. For the last three months.

PINSKY: And what can you tell us about him?

DAHRENS: He`s a happy kid. He`s not -- he`s not a person that you would think this would ever happen from. I mean, everything about him wouldn`t point to this direction. You know, I mean, I just -- I don`t know. You know, I don`t know how else to describe him because he`s just a happy kid.

He was a good kid. He had a lot going for him. He was excited to move to Hawaii and just live his life, live as a young wild kid. Free kid.

PINSKY: All right. Christopher, now, you called us as a viewer, and so we can`t confirm that this is, in fact, what you`re telling us is true. So --

DAHRENS: Well, that`s fine, you know? But the things that you guys - - the things that I`ve seen as -- when I first turned on the show, I mean, it made me sick to my stomach, to hear Dr. Drew who`s supposed to be a professional person that people look forward -- look forward to listening to, to say things after every remark that was said from his Facebook page that he`s an addict or he`s a druggie.

PINSKY: Christopher, I didn`t say he was anything.

DAHRENS: You did.

PINSKY: Hang on a second, Christopher. Hold on a second. Put him on hold a second. I have a licensed clinical psychologist. I`m a board certified physician. We`re speculating about someone like this in the news. We`re reporting the news. What could possibly -- how do we make sense of this.

What could it possibly be? We don`t know him. We don`t know the facts yet. We will figure them out one day. Anything further you`d like to add to that?

DAVID SWANSON, PSY.D., LICENSED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: No. Christopher, again, I`m sorry to hear about your loss. Obviously, there is no way to explain something like this. And very oftentimes, when things like this occur, it`s a very quick snap and a lot of people who do love and care, the family, friends, they`re not aware of this stuff when it goes down. Sometimes, there are signs leading up to it, and sometimes, it`s a very quick reaction time.

PINSKY: Right. And it`s no different than us looking at something in the news where somebody has a fever or has some sort of symptom and you go what could have caused that? Well, there are things we can speculate that might have caused that. We don`t know him.

We can`t say what did cause it. We certainly aren`t making any presumptions about it. Christopher, what did Jacob do for a living?

DAHRENS: Jacob worked at a hero (ph) shop. He was a sandwich maker. He was a people person.

PINSKY: That`s what it sounds like. You know, and by the way --

DAHRENS: Because if it sounds like that, then why would you guys try to make him out for a druggie or a horrible person?

PINSKY: Nobody said that. Just to be clear.

DAHRENS: You did.

PINSKY: Let`s be clear. One of the possibilities -- hang on, Christopher, what of the possibilities is, he could have a frontal lobe tumor or something crazy like that that made him behave in ways that`s very uncharacteristic. That`s certainly another possibility. We`re just sort of listing all the possibilities here.

That`s just the nature of what we`re trying to do here today is make sense of something that seems so incomprehensible. And as you`re saying, so out of character for this guy, there`s going to be an explanation. There`s going to be. We`re going to find out someday what it is. Can you help us understand what it might have been?

DAHRENS: You know, sir, I don`t know. I ask myself.

PINSKY: What it could have been.

SWANSON: Well, I think the thing that is just a shocking distortion is how Christopher can be a roommate and live right next door and feel no fear whatsoever, and yet, 24 hours later, he`s dead in a mall after shooting three people.

PINSKY: Yes. It`s extraordinary. One day, we, hopefully, will make sense of this. And we`ll be right here on top of it trying to -- as the evidence comes in trying to put it together. So, if for no other reason, if we can learn something from this. Cade, I`d just go back to you quickly. If we learn something from these things, again, we are armed with information.

We can see evidence so these kinds of things don`t happen in the future. Maybe Christopher, maybe if we can find out what did happen, people like Christopher see a roommate behaving in a certain way. We don`t know what it is yet with this particular case. Might be armed with information that could prevent something like this in the future. Yes? Cade, do you agree?

CADE COURTLEY, FORMER NAVY SEAL: I can`t believe what I just heard. I can`t. And that`s part of the bigger problem.

PINSKY: Tell me.

COURTLEY: He`s upset because we`re making him sound like a bad guy? He killed people yesterday. He is a bad guy. I can`t believe -- there`s a total lack of accountability with this generation that I just listened to. And it`s sad. I fear for -- I fear for the future.

PINSKY: Well, let`s all be part of the change for the future and try to keep ahead of these things and not be passive. Listen, Cade, I`m trying to take a page from your book here and be armed and be ready and move forward and be positive and, you know, stay on top of these things. These things are comprehensible.

We can understand them. And it`s up to all of us to do so, so these things don`t happen. Listen, a bunch of things tonight I`ve learned just myself thinking through what I would do in a mall if I saw somebody acting kind of weird.

SWANSON: Can I add something here?


SWANSON: And I want to talk to the victims. There were 10,000 people in this mall. OK? And if you`re listening tonight, what you`re hearing is Cade offering some very good advice on how to protect yourself, but if you were in that mall, you went into fight or flight. And whatever your reaction was, this was your reaction.

It`s not something you should look back and beat yourself up over. During the Colorado shooting, there was a father who ran out of the theater and left his wife and child there. This was his autonomic response. This was something that came instantaneously to him without thought. The toughest thing to do to implement any of these great suggestions Cade`s coming up with is the idea in the moment for you to think clearly and not react.

So, if you were in this scenario, take it easy on yourself, because you`ve been through a horrible trauma and you really need to seek counseling, take care of yourself, and not beat yourself up.

PINSKY: Agreed. And Cade, finally, I`m going to take on one last thing. Let me see Cade in the monitor with me here if I could, is that, he did horrible things. He did bad things. He may have been a sick guy who may not have been a bad guy. We`re going to find out about that. He may have been a bad guy, did bad things. But, you think, I think he may have been a sick guy and just no one knew it.

COURTLEY: I think --

PINSKY: Hold on. We`ll see. Doug Swanson, thank you very much. Cade, as always, thank you.

I`ve got to switch gears. This is going to be a hard turn, everybody. Here we go. Ready? Lindsay Lohan. We`re going to talk about her, because I`ve got her dad, Michael, waiting in the wings for me. Could she go to jail? Will she? Should she? Everyone`s angry with her as well.

Again, I think Lindsay not a bad person, someone who needs our prayers, and we`ll think about what her dad has to say about this. We`ll talk to him directly and hear from you as well. Again, the phone number, 855-373-7395. Be right back.



PINSKY (voice-over): Lindsay Lohan`s probation was revoked today. Is she headed back to jail? We will speak to her father, Michael, about his fears for her and what`s behind the scenes in the Lohan Family.


PINSKY (on-camera): So, is she going to jail? Should she? A judge revoked her probation today. And joining me to discuss, Kim Serafin, senior editor for "In Touch Weekly," Attorney Areva Martin, and then, as I said, I`ve got Michael Lohan here in just a second. Kim, can you give us the details of what happened in court today?

KIM SERAFIN, SR. EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Yes. Basically, as you mentioned, Lindsay Lohan`s probation was revoked because of these charges. Now, she was on an informal probation. Back in March, the judge lifted her formal probation, but she was still on an informal probation going back to that necklace theft that she pled no contest to. But, then in June, she was in this car accident. People probably remember that.

And, she was charged with lying to a police officer, obstructing a police officer, and reckless driving. This is because she, apparently, told the police officers that her assistant was driving, but detectives believe that she was the one who was driving. So, this is why her probation was revoked. She`s due back in court. There`s another hearing on January 15th.

PINSKY: So, Areva, what does this mean from a legal standpoint? I don`t quite get it. So, probation is revoked. So what?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: When you`re on probation, there`s a basic rule. You can`t break the law.

PINSKY: You can`t misbehave.

MARTIN: You cannot misbehave. You have to be on your best behave. You don`t even want to get a traffic ticket when you`re on probation. And what happened in this case, the car accident that Kim talked about, the Santa Monica district attorney has filed four misdemeanor charges arising out of that accident, reckless driving, making a false statement to a police officer, resisting arrest, et cetera.

And so, now, the L.A. district attorney upon learning of the charges filed by Santa Monica went into court and said she`s violated her probation. So, the judge says be back in court January 15th and she`s going to look at whether to reinstate the jail time for the necklace charge. So, she could be looking at eight months of jail time.

PINSKY: So, that`s the worst case.

MARTIN: That`s the worst case.

PINSKY: Is there any chance that they will refer her for treatment?

MARTIN: You know, Lindsay has been to rehab over -- you know, since 2007. I think four or five different, you know, times she`s tried rehab. She`s had some actual jail time. So, the judge could go the rehab route again. She could extend the probation or she could go somewhere between the eight months and maybe a couple months of jail time.

So, lots of discretion left to the court to make a decision about how best to deal with Lindsay`s ongoing legal issues.

PINSKY: OK. Michael, dad to dad, I just feel so -- so anxious for you, I guess. I mean, it`s -- you`re watching your daughter do this stuff. What does that feel like? What are you hoping and praying happens? Where are you at with this?

MICHAEL LOHAN, LINDSAY`S FATHER: I don`t even know anymore. I mean, my hands are in the air. We`ve discussed this only a couple of days ago. I tried to get you to get Dina in touch and sit down so that we can at least be there for Lindsay. I really don`t know what to do anymore. I need help. I need people to get behind me.

And I hope the court gets behind me and does put her in rehab, because look, I`ve known many people, and you have too, that have gone into treatment so many times, but they haven`t been given the right treatment. They haven`t addressed a trauma in someone`s life. And Lindsay has trauma. The divorce that Dina and I went through really traumatized her.

And from that point on, she really spun out of control. And I think that if she goes to jail being in jail myself, it`s a very traumatic thing. It will only make matters worse. I know in my case when I was on probation, if you violate, if you do anything wrong, you go to jail. There`s no ands, ifs, or buts. I don`t know what the state of California has in mind.

But when you`re on probation, especially if you have a drug violation in the past, they urine test you constantly, and if you violate and you`re dirty, you go to jail or to rehab, in some cases.

PINSKY: Michael, Michael --

LOHAN: As we discussed, Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: What do you want -- what is your message -- first of all, I think, people are frustrated that the court doesn`t really take action on Lindsay. And then, I think you, I think I understand, would wish the court would take action and send her to prolonged treatment. Is that accurate?

LOHAN: Yes. I believe -- and I`ve -- you know, discussed this with you and even her team, so to speak, and I think that she needs to be in a program. I don`t care where it is, where they take her off all the medication she`s on, and she comes out 100 percent clean. And when I just tried to do that intervention which I referred to you on, I said that she should be in for at least six months, up to a year, and hold the sentence, the suspended sentence over her head.

So, if she does fail in any way, even if she goes to treatment for six months and she fails, she should be on probation and urine tested, if she fails, she goes to jail. She needs those guidelines, those boundaries, and she needs to hold herself accountable --

PINSKY: Because Michael -- right. Because she`s in denial. That`s really the bottom line. She`s in denial about her condition.

LOHAN: And everyone else around her is. And they`re all enablers. I mean, and I may get darts thrown at me constantly, but I`m her dad. I love her. I see her as the Lindsay I knew growing up, not the one that`s transformed her life after this divorce. And I just wish her mother would just get on the same page, put the indifference aside and say you know what? You`re our main focus.

Nothing else matters. You`re not my source of income. You are my daughter. And your life is all that matters to me.

PINSKY: OK. Now, Mike, I`ve got a lot more questions for you. Kim, before we go to break, why are people -- you hear a dad`s plea here. Why are people so negative on Lindsay and Michael and what they`re struggling with?

SERAFIN: You know, I actually think that there are a lot of people that really are on Lindsay`s side. I mean, look at anyone else. If they had been through what Lindsay has been through, would they be given as many chances as Lindsay`s been given? I don`t think so. I think, first of all, Hollywood loves to see a comeback.

They love a comeback story and I think a lot of people have had hope for Lindsay at least in her career aspects. Even with the "Liz and Dick," yes, it got some terrible reviews but there are a lot of people that also said, you know what, she wasn`t that bad. This wasn`t, you know, Lincoln. It wasn`t an Oscar-winning performance, but she`s getting back on track.

So, a lot of people really do want to see her get back on track and that`s why you see so many people give her chances again.

PINSKY: And Areva, do you see what`s going on here? I mean, this is -- what?

MARTIN: You know, we just see this so often, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: But you see the dad is suffering, the kid`s suffering, the mom`s suffering. Why can`t the legal system step in and go, we`re going to do this --

MARTIN: Well, you know, even if the legal system steps in, which it`s going to do something in January. Something`s going to have to happen with this case. She can`t keep violating probation, you know, continue the lifestyle that she`s living without some legal consequences.

And I think like Kim said, people are pulling for Lindsay. They want her to grow up. They want her to mature --

PINSKY: I hope so.

MARTIN: -- they want her to take responsibility for her actions. But when you`ve been in the limelight like this young woman has been all of her life, you know, we see these tragic stories again and again and again. And unfortunately, some of them don`t have very nice endings.

PINSKY: They don`t have nice endings --

MARTIN: People end up addicted. They end up broke. They end up, you know, a mess.

PINSKY: They end up dead. And Michael knows this. He`s a recovering addict. He knows how bad this can get. We`re going to talk more about this after the break. And I want your calls as well. I`ll be right with you.


PINSKY: We`re back with Michael Lohan and my guests talking about Lindsay`s probation revocation that happened today. And she could be sent back to jail. Kim, do you have any question for Michael? I mean, this is your chance to sort of -- because I know Michael. I know how he struggles with this. And I don`t think the world really gets that.

SERAFIN: Yes. Well, obviously. I mean, I`ve certainly seen Michael, heard Michael talk many times. I mean, I guess, Michael, one question would be, are you in contact with Lindsay now? Because there`s always differing reports whether you`re in contact with her. Are you, guys, in contact and is she listening to you? Is she taking any of your advice?

LOHAN: Well, after the situation with Dina in the car that night, there was limited contact, but she did -- Lindsay did contact me about three days ago at about three o`clock in the morning, my time. You know, I just don`t understand how she doesn`t see or look in the mirror and see what her life has become.

I mean, she is such a talented kid. We all know that. And I think that`s why she`s getting the chances. But if she doesn`t -- I mean, I envision the picture of her, you know, in the "new York Post" that time where I thought she was dead, when she was passed out in the car. And quite frankly, I`m going to do all I can just to try to steer her or get the court to do something, because for lack of better terms, I`m not going to have her blood on my hands.

She`s my daughter. I will try and try and try. If the judge, if Dina, if Lindsay`s so-called friends, or even her team don`t do something, and they don`t try to do something to help her, then you know, it`s on them, not me. I`m doing all I can. And I know you are, too, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: And Areva, I think the legal team thinks they`re protecting her by keeping her out of jail and things. And I don`t think they`re doing her any favors. They should be mandating treatment.

MARTIN: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, we`re talking about an adult here. We`re talking about a 26-year-old woman.

PINSKY: That`s right. Absolutely.

MARTIN: So, when you say the team should be mandating her to do something, you know in this case is how difficult it is to get someone that is in denial to be affirmative, to go into treatment, to take the help. So, we don`t know. The team may be sitting back just like dad saying we`re doing everything we can to get her.

I know her lawyer personally. I know she`s a fantastic lawyer. So, I know that she wants her to follow the law.

LOHAN: Yes, she is.

MARTIN: I know she wants her to show up in court. I know she wants this probation not to be revoked.


LOHAN: She also wants her in treatment.


LOHAN: And that came from Shaun`s mouth herself.

PINSKY: That`s great.

LOHAN: Along with the rest of her team.

PINSKY: That`s fantastic.

LOHAN: Shaun is a great attorney. Her job is to keep Lindsay out of jail, but her job is not to prevent her from going to treatment. And I think Shaun`s behind that. And I think the judge needs to be spoken to in chambers by anybody to say your honor, this girl has a future.

She`s going to -- and she can`t go on like this anymore or like you said, Dr. Drew, and I agree, it`s going to end up very tragically. And I don`t want to see my daughter in a casket like six of her friends are right now because of the same damn thing.

PINSKY: OK. I`ve got to take a break. I`m running out of time here. Michael, listen, my thing is say our prayers for your daughter and for you. I`ve seen miracles. I hope for miracles for her. And I know she`ll be a spectacular recovering person if we can just get her to that point. Be right back after this.


PINSKY: I`m going to ask my guests to bear with me. I have very limited time. I`m going to try to slip in a phone call here from Jeff. Jeff, go right ahead.

JEFF, CALIFORNIA: Yes. I`m 47. The number of times I`ve been arrested is zero. The number of speeding tickets I`ve gotten is zero. I just wish these people would -- they`ve got talent. They`ve got money. You know, use their time more productively.

PINSKY: Well, Jeff, let me interrupt you. I think that`s what I was talking about when I said Lindsay`s going to make a great recovering person. She is talented. She is well-liked. She`s endowed with all sorts of richness as a human being. That`s why we`re interested in her. She`s an interesting, rich person.

She has a disorder. And that disorder, she`s in denial about. Michael, back me up on this. I`ve got about 15 seconds. She`s in denial. And if she is able to deal with the condition, which is something that requires daily management, we will see a very rich, lovely person emerge.

JEFF: OK. Can I just tell you something?

PINSKY: No, Jeff, I`m sorry. Michael, go ahead.

LOHAN: I agree with you 100 percent. She can turn it around, but she`s got to want to. And she`s got to just follow the people like us that really want her to get in. And you know, it`s going to be tough, but I think she can do it. I know she can do it.

PINSKY: I know she can, too. I`ve got to take a break here, guys. Thank you, Michael, Kim Serafin, Areva Martin, Cade Courtley, David Swanson, and the people of Portland area for being with us tonight. Those of you who had called in. Those of you that are watching, of course, thank you.