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NANCY GRACE

Man Drives 500 Miles to Murder Wife`s On-Line Friend

Aired December 27, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, residential small town Clymer. A suburban dad of four drives 500 miles. Why? To gun down the local school superintendent, there, standing in his front yard. Why? Suburban dad reads his wife`s e-mails, and then convinces himself she`s having a sex affair with a guy 500 miles away, a school superintendent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A national lookout for 42-year-old Anthony Robb (ph) Taglianetti.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We consider him to be armed and dangerous.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wanted for the murder of 51-year-old Keith Reed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A school superintendent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shot several times at his home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did hear something that sounded like gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taglianetti`s wife, Mary...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve had a rough marital history.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Taglianetti and his wife lived separately for a time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources say Mary Taglianetti and Reed met on line. Neighbors say the couple had a relationship, texting and e-mailing. Police suspect Taglianetti drove to confront Reed after finding those messages, police finding evidence tying Taglianetti to the murder scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Texting and e-mailing? You mean body parts never touched, and he goes 500 miles and guns down the school superintendent?

And tonight, live to North Carolina. Mommy gives her 11-year-old girl a tattoo right there on the girl`s right shoulder! Hey, thanks, Mom!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mommy dearest turns tattoo artist on her 11-year- old daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mom reportedly says she didn`t know tattooing a minor is illegal in North Carolina, says her daughter wanted it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Odessa Clay tattooed a small heart on her daughter`s shoulder, used her own tools to do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clay says she did not hurt her daughter. She numbed her arm and she wasn`t in pain. She says it was her own daughter`s idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just -- it makes no sense, no sense at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now Mom is facing jail time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. Live to residential small town Clymer. A suburban dad of four drives 500 miles to pull the trigger to gun down a local school superintendent standing out in his own front yard. Why? Suburban dad does a little sleuthing. He gets onto his wife`s e-mails. I tried that with my husband. My head nearly blew off, it was so boring!

He reads his wife`s e-mails and is convinced she`s still having a sex affair with a school superintendent 500 miles away. Well, he had plenty of time to plan that!

Straight out to Maki Becker, reporter with "The Buffalo News," co- author of "The Bike Path Killer." Maki, did -- how many times did he shoot the school superintendent?

MAKI BECKER, "BUFFALO NEWS" (via telephone): Our understanding is that he shot him three times in the body.

GRACE: Oh! And the guy`s standing out in his own front yard, right?

BECKER: Well, it sounds like that Mr. Taglianetti was waiting for Mr. Reed. He had just returned home, and confronted him there, and about 150 feet from his home in a field-type area. That`s where he was shot. That`s where his body was found.

GRACE: You know, I don`t get it. I don`t get it, Maki Becker -- Maki with "The Buffalo News" joining us. You know, I think if your spouse cheats, you know, just send them to their lover COD, cash on delivery, no return address. But murder?

You know, let`s start at the beginning. Let`s go out to Andy Alm, news director with WMGW. Andy, how did this whole thing get started?

ANDY ALM, WMGW RADIO (via telephone): Well, Nancy, the superintendent was believed to have been shot dead, I believe on the 21st of September. They found his body, actually, on the 24th.

GRACE: Andy...

ALM: Again, he`s the superintendent of schools...

GRACE: ... Andy, Andy, I said let`s go back to the beginning. The beginning would not start with a dead body. The beginning would start with the husband getting into his wife`s e-mail.

ALM: Well, that we don`t know, when he accessed the e-mails, but do know had he e-mails in his car at the time he was apprehended.

GRACE: What else do we know, Andy?

ALM: Well, we know that the wife of Mr. Taglianetti and Reed did previously have a relationship. I believe it was in 2010. So it is pretty clear there is a love triangle scenario going on. I think the thing that`s difficult here to know is exactly how long that relationship lasted. Was it still really going on or -- you know, it`s unclear...

GRACE: Why, Andy? Why does it matter if it`s still going on? Is that motive for murder in your book, Andy Alm with WMGW?

ALM: Well, it is obviously not justified...

GRACE: Your wife`s having an affair, so go ahead and pull the trigger?

ALM: Oh, it`s obviously not justified.

GRACE: Well, you know, another thing I don`t understand is a 2010 affair? He gets mad in 2012 over something that happened two years ago?

Maki Becker, back to you, with "The Buffalo News." What was this, a slow burn? Was he just percolating this whole time until it finally turned into a murder? What happened?

BECKER: Well, it`s unclear whether he knew about the previous relationship. Back a couple years before the murder, the Taglianettis had separated, and it sounded like the wife had moved back to Saratoga Springs, New York, and somehow went on an on-line dating service, and that`s how she met Mr. Reed. And...

GRACE: Well, isn`t he married, too, the school superintendent?

BECKER: He`s divorced. He`s divorced. He has three older daughters. I believe they`re all grown. And he at some point was engaged, but that engagement had broken off, as well. So it`s not really clear exactly what his status -- but he was single. He was living alone when the shooting happened, certainly.

GRACE: OK, let`s go with this, Maki Becker. You`ve got suburban dad and you`ve got school superintendent and you`ve got wife. Now, school superintendent -- he`s divorced. He`s unattached, all right? So he can look for love on line all he wants to. No problem.

BECKER: Sure.

GRACE: Now, here`s my question, Maki. Was the suburban dad and the wife separated when wife meets school super on line?

BECKER: We think so. We think that`s what happened. And then we know that in the summer, I believe, of 2010, the Taglianettis reunited. There`s a posting on his Facebook site saying that he got married. And we know they`d been married before, so I don`t know if they had a ceremony or it was just kind of a symbolic thing, saying that, My wife and my children have returned and I`m so happy. And then she posts back on it with a bunch of X`s and O`s.

So we know that they were at least trying to get back together, or at least he thought that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taglianetti, a former Marine, is accused of the shooting death of 51-year-old Keith Reed, a school superintendent, outside his home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can tell you he was a very controlling man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities have not released a motive, but sources say Mary Taglianetti and Reed met on line during an earlier period of separation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve had a rough marital history.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police suspect Taglianetti drove to confront Reed after finding those messages.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We consider him to be armed and dangerous.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sheriff Joe Gerace says Reed was shot several times at his home.Taglianetti

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Evidence left at the scene connected him to...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Armed and dangerous? A suburban dad of four? He gets a bee in his bonnet when he breaks into his wife`s e-mail and believes that she`s having affair with a male school superintendent about 500 miles away.

Now, here`s the kicker. Back in about 2010, she did have a romance with this guy, the school superintendent. He`s divorced. He`s free and single. She was separated at the time. She subsequently got back together with her husband, suburban dad. And now he reads e-mails and thinks it`s back on long-distance?

Unleash the lawyers, Dan Winslow, Kirby Clements and Marla Chicotsky.

Marla Chicotsky, body parts were not even bumping together. Nothing was happening except a couple of, Ticka-ticka-ticka-ticka-ticka! It takes 10 seconds to shoot off an e-mail. I can just see it, Hey, babe! And he commits murder over that?

MARLA CHICOTSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the details are very unclear. There was a relationship in 2010. Is there a relationship that was occurring in 2012?

GRACE: No.

CHICOTSKY: Also, what`s very interesting in this case is the wife, or the estranged wife of Mr. Taglianetti was the person who called the police saying, You know what? I think it was my husband who committed this murder.

Does she have some information that she`s not telling the law enforcement or the public about this case?

GRACE: OK, now, hold on. You can`t have your cake and eat it, too. You can`t say, Eh, eh, she called police! Hey, wait! Does she have information? She`s the one that called police. Of course she`s got information. So you can`t blame the wife for calling police and giving information, and then saying she`s withholding information, too.

Kirby Clements, my point is, as opposed to trying to somehow rope the wife into this murder, my point is that this is not going to rise to provocation. An e-mail or a text related to an affair that happened almost three years ago, that may have happened almost three years ago, is not going to provide enough provocation under the law for it to lower itself to voluntary manslaughter.

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, I think you would be right, if those are the facts. But I have to agree with counsel that there are some other facts here. I mean, look at that wife`s video.

GRACE: What? What?

CLEMENTS: She seemed a little -- she seemed a little calm as she discusses the fact that her husband supposedly killed the guy she was involved in a relationship with.

GRACE: And what`s your point, Kirby?

CLEMENTS: My point -- my point is...

GRACE: What`s your point?

CLEMENTS: ... perhaps she...

GRACE: Her husband`s in jail, and her old boyfriend is dead in the front yard. What do you want her to do, be happy?

CLEMENTS: No, I want her to at least show some remorse. So I`m suggesting to you, Nancy, that perhaps...

GRACE: Oh!

CLEMENTS: Perhaps she...

GRACE: Sorry?

CLEMENTS: ... egged this husband on. And I`m saying to raise to the level...

GRACE: Liz, can you play back that sound bite...

CLEMENTS: ... of manslaughter...

GRACE: ... of Kirby Clements saying, There`s no playbook for grief, Nancy.

CLEMENTS: No, I`m not talking about that. I`m talking about whether she egged him on, the husband, in an effort to have him...

GRACE: Egged him on.

CLEMENTS: ... do something, egged him on, knowing full well that he had a hair trigger, that he was -- I mean, even the guy`s co-workers talked about how this man was. So perhaps she utilized that.

GRACE: Why are you trying to point your finger at the wife? She wasn`t in the car. She didn`t pull the trigger. All right, let`s...

CLEMENTS: I`m not blaming her. I`m saying that...

GRACE: Yes, you are.

(CROSSTALK)

CLEMENTS: No, reducing it to manslaughter is all I`m saying. I think it -- the murder could be reduced to manslaughter once the facts come out. I think there`s some facts here (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: He drove 500 miles, Dan Winslow, former judge out of Boston. Dan Winslow, he had 500 miles to stew as he drove to the front yard of the school superintendent. That in my book is a cooling-off period.

Could you explain to the viewers what I mean by that? Let`s talk about the law, not fantasy, not sci-fi, but the law as it applies to this fact scenario.

DAN WINSLOW, FORMER JUDGE: Different -- different characteristics of the crime of homicide. First-degree murder, malice aforethought, a planned, calculated killing of another human being without justification.

I believe that the defendant here has been charged with second degree murder, indicating that the prosecutor, at least in that case, believes that he was under the influence of some emotional impact.

But the point that you made, Nancy, is 530 miles to drive, and perhaps even if the evidence bears out, being the same person who was at the school, plenty of time to think about it.

GRACE: Joining me right now, I`m hearing in my ear, is a special guest, is Sheriff Joe Gerace. He is the Chautauqua County sheriff -- from their office. He`s the elected sheriff. Sheriff, thank you for being with us.

SHERIFF JOSEPH GERACE, CHAUTAUQUA COUNTY, NY (via telephone): My pleasure.

GRACE: Man, this has thrown me for a loop, how you can be so angry over an affair that may have happened about three years ago. You see a text or an e-mail and blast off, driving 500 miles to gun down some guy you don`t even know.

What evidence at the crime scene, Sheriff Gerace, connected Keith Reed`s murder to Anthony Taglianetti?

GERACE: Well, we know that at this point in time, we have ballistic evidence that`s in the lab. We have every reason to believe that`s going to return as a match to the gun that was found in Virginia when he was apprehended.

We also have a couple of other items that we`re not disclosing at this point in time as the investigation continues, but we do have ties to the crime scene by the suspect.

GRACE: Sheriff Joseph Gerace is with us. He`s the Chautauqua County sheriff. Sheriff, when you say ballistics match, a lot of people may believe that simply means the caliber matches the weapon. But it`s much more in-depth than that. It`s like a fingerprint. Explain, Sheriff.

GERACE: Well, we do not have that result back. It`s just our belief that they`re going to be -- they`re similar. The caliber of the firearm that was recovered and what we believe the projectile is very similar. We have every reason to believe that it will be matched because the condition of the bullet is very good.

And it will be examined for striations and against the similar test rounds. It`ll be fired through his firearm at the lab, and they`ll be able to match it as a direct match to that firearm. That is our hope.

GRACE: Sheriff Gerace...

GERACE: That has not been done yet.

GRACE: ... isn`t it true, Sheriff Gerace, that when you do a ballistics test, you take the known bullet -- for instance the bullet that was found in Keith Reed`s body or that had exited Keith Reed`s body, the school superintendent -- you take that bullet and you put it under a microscope.

Then you take the gun, the suspected gun, i.e. the gun found in the car of the suburban dad. You take a bullet. You fire through that gun into, for instance, a barrel of water or a series of bed mattresses, and you compare that bullet to the known bullet.

And isn`t it true, Sheriff, that when a gun is made at the manufacturer, the metal is heated up and it dries a certain way, and it makes certain marks inside the gun barrel that are unique only to that gun. So as a bullet hurls down the chamber, hurls down the barrel, it marks the bullet in a way that only one gun can.

GERACE: Well, that`s true. And in addition to that, any cleaning or any specific things that were done with that firearm are going to make it an individual versus a class characteristic. That`s our hope, that that comes back as an individual characteristic, and we can pinpoint that weapon as being the weapon that was used in Mr. Reed`s murder.

GRACE: Sheriff, is it true that e-mails between the school superintendent and suburban dad`s wife had been printed out and were in the car?

GERACE: That is correct. They were located with the firearm in the suspect`s vehicle when he was apprehended.

GRACE: Sheriff, how long ago was the alleged affair between the two? And was it ongoing?

GERACE: No. It`s my understanding that they had met on line. When the victim -- or the suspect`s wife and the suspect were separated, she went onto an on-line dating site, and so did Mr. Reed. They met on line, and then later had a physical relationship, but that was several years ago.

We know that recently, just before the homicide, there was an e-mail that was discovered by Taglianetti, and he was irate and left his home, his whereabouts unknown by his wife.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She and her husband had separated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father of four young kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former Marine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was a very controlling man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wanted for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of 51-year-old Keith Reed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A local school superintendent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They tracked his cell phone, spotted Taglianetti`s Buick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have uncovered some evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found a handgun in the car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Marty in Kentucky. Hi, Marty. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Nancy, my wife and I are prayerful supporters of your cause, and we watch your program regularly.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question -- my question is, two years is an awful long time to have some e-mails. It seems -- do they have more evidence other than just some e-mails that this husband -- that this man`s wife was involved with this guy? And it seems like driving 500 miles, anybody`s temper would have cooled down after that.

GRACE: You know what, Marty in Kentucky? I agree with you 300 percent.

I want to go back to the sheriff, who`s kind enough to take a brief break in his schedule. Sheriff Joseph Gerace is joining us from the Chautauqua County sheriff`s office.

Sheriff, even though the alleged sex affair between suburban dad`s wife and the school superintendent may have been about three years ago, two to three years ago, was there a recent e-mail or text that set this dad off?

GERACE: Yes, there was. According to the information we have been able to develop, there -- an e-mail had been discovered by him that was very recent, just prior to him leaving Virginia for New York state. And it obviously set him off. It`s very hard to rationalize an irrational act, but we do believe that`s what began his quest to New York.

GRACE: Did that e-mail suggest, Sheriff, that the affair had rekindled? Were they having sex again? Or was this just an, Oh, hey, miss you, e-mail.

GERACE: Well, I don`t want to disclose the contents at this point in time, but it -- my assumption is that there was enough content there that it really upset the suspect in this case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A national lookout for 42-year-old Anthony Robb (ph) Taglianetti.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We consider him to be armed and dangerous.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wanted for the murder of 51-year-old Keith Reed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A school superintendent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shot several times at his home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did hear something that sounded like gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taglianetti`s wife, Mary...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve had a rough marital history.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Taglianetti and his wife lived separately for a time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources say Mary Taglianetti and Reed met on line. Neighbors say the couple had a relationship, texting and e-mailing. Police suspect Taglianetti drove to confront Reed after finding those messages, police finding evidence tying Taglianetti to the murder scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. A suburban dad of four drives over 500 miles to gun down a male school superintendent standing in his own front yard? Why?

Dad of four finds an e-mail or text between his wife and the school super. The two had a relationship while the wife was separated. And the school superintendent was divorced.

With me amongst our panel, also Sheriff Joseph Gerace, Chautauqua County sheriff.

Sheriff, I know you`re not telling me the content of the e-mail. I totally understand that, but what I`m trying to figure out is, was the school superintendent still having sex with the dad`s wife?

SHERIFF JOSEPH GERACE, CHAUTAUQUA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: We have no reason to believe that whatsoever.

GRACE: OK. Back to you lawyers. Winslow, Clements and Chicotsky.

Chicotsky, the sex was over. It happened almost three years ago. So he gets a bee in his bonnet? What`s your defense?

MARLA CHICOTSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Who knows what was said by the wife to Mr. Taglianetti. We don`t know what was going on, we don`t know what it was that set him off to drive from Virginia to New York. Furthermore, the evidence that has come out is not 100 percent clear that it is him who commit this murder.

They still have to test the ballistics, Nancy. They still have to go through the surveillance to even show that it`s him that went to the school that day.

GRACE: There is so much more evidence.

Bonnie Druker, what`s the evidence that we know of so far that has been marshaled by the sheriff?

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: You know, I just can`t even believe what she just said. But this guy was so upset, so pissed off, so angry he went to the superintendent`s school, asked for the superintendent. Superintendent wasn`t there and Taglianetti left the school and it was caught on videotape. Police believe it is the same man and it is him.

GRACE: Not only that, what about the cell phone? What can you tell me about the school superintendent`s cell phone, Sheriff Gerace? What do we know about the victim`s cell phone?

GERACE: Well, we received a complaint as a missing person initially and deputies arrived there and investigated that. They were unable -- at his residence, unable to locate him. He was located the following Monday - - the following day which was Monday by one of our canine units and right away we have began pinging cell phones -- actually prior to finding his body, we began pinging his cell phone and it disclosed the location in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

We later were able to recover that cell phone. It was -- it`s our belief he tried to throw it into the water on I-18 outside of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, didn`t make it into the water, and we did recover that.

And obviously, we`ve got a lot of evidence that is still being evaluated and analyzed but you`ve got cell phone records that are going to be a key part of putting this case together.

GRACE: Let me go out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. So I guess the defense theory is that suburban dad drives 500 miles, tries to catch the school super at school. He`s seen by everybody. He`s caught on video. He then leaves. The bullets match up to his gun without a doubt, it`s like a fingerprint. And the gun is found discarded en route back to suburban dad`s home. But somebody else did the crime?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "ONLY THE TRUTH": Well, Nancy, I think we`re pretty sure who`s going to be arrested for this one, and as far as his defense goes, the problem is it`s extremely premeditated.

Now I understand the rage personally, because his wife was not divorced when she had the affair, separated yes, but still not a divorced woman and then she gets back with him and she starts texting and e-mailing her ex-lover. That would make anybody enraged if their spouse did that.

However, just because we`re enraged and angry at something, doesn`t mean we go pick up our gun and go shoot them, especially in planning this whole thing out. So rage is understandable, murder is not.

GRACE: Joining me right now from WOAI, Michael Board.

Michael, what more facts do I need to know?

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: You need to know that he is a retired military member.

Nancy, I covered a lot of trials involving former veterans, formerly military members and seeing a disturbing trend recently that a large number are claiming post-traumatic stress for doing what they do. And -- when this does go to trial, he`s got -- I bet when he does go before a judge, his defense lawyers (INAUDIBLE) will argue (INAUDIBLE) my client has PTSD. He was out of his mind. That proves why he drove 500 miles to shoot somebody.

GRACE: You know, Caryn Stark, psychologist in New York, I think what he is saying is something about his activity, his service in the military, and him going, quote, "out of his mind"?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, post traumatic stress, Nancy, is definitely something that happens as a result of being in the military. But it doesn`t cause somebody --

GRACE: He`s a ex-Marine sniper, Caryn Stark.

STARK: But it doesn`t cause him to murder.

GRACE: He`s an ex-Marine sniper.

STARK: Yes. I`m hearing that. But I still -- I still feel that this is somebody who has such aggression and rage that he got so affected by someone taking his property, he had to go out there and kill the guy. He drove all that distance, and what was he doing? He was looking at these e- mails. He wasn`t pumping iron. He was using this to fuel him and to get him to commit this crime.

GRACE: To Stacy Dietrich, former detective, author of "Murder Mountain." What Michael Board I believe was saying -- from WOAI, he was cutting in and out on me is that this suburban dad of four, this married father of four, is an ex-Marine sniper. And that the day after the shooting, he shows up to work bald and disheveled. He`s apparently shaved his head. He shows up and he says that he`s found a new job and resigns. This is the day after the body is found.

STACY DIETRICH, FORMER DETECTIVE, AUTHOR OF "MURDER MOUNTAIN": I`m actually kind of surprised that he didn`t take his wife out, too, especially when somebody snaps to that magnitude.

GRACE: To the lawyers, Dan Winslow, Kirby Clements and Marla Chicotsky, we now know that the dad, the suburban dad of four, is a -- an ex-Marine sniper. And the day after the body is found, he shows up to work bald. He has apparently shaved his head and completely disheveled and announces he`s quitting, he`s got a new job, and he`s leaving.

All right, Kirby, coincidence?

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy, it`s not coincidence. And in fact, I would go so far as to say this PTSD may have some credence here. This man was -- if in fact he was a Marine sniper who actually had kills and actually killed someone, a number of people --

GRACE: You mean other than the school superintendent?

CLEMENTS: Other than the school superintendent and you have this other -- this stimuli, the allegation of the affair, the recent text, I would suggest to you, Nancy, that people with those types of problems and that type of history can react in a way that we would find in our sane world irrational.

GRACE: OK. You know what?

CLEMENTS: But nonetheless would reduce it down to voluntary.

GRACE: Veterans are going to be very angry at you.

CLEMENTS: They can be mad.

GRACE: My father being one of them. As I was saying --

CLEMENTS: Yes, they could be mad.

GRACE: Because you can`t use military service as a blanket defense with post-traumatic stress syndrome.

Everybody, all you defense lawyers are rolling out PTSD. They`re talking about post traumatic stress syndrome.

CLEMENTS: Yes.

GRACE: Back to the sheriff, Sheriff Joseph Gerace, did the -- did the suburban dad serve overseas?

GERACE: I don`t have that knowledge personally. I`m sure my investigators have a full background on his military service but I do not know that myself.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist.

Dr. Arnall, what would the injuries to the body tell you, if anything?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, the injuries are going to tell you the distance between assailant and the victim when this confrontation occurred. If this guy`s a sniper he could have killed this gentleman at 200 yards, but he`s decided to confront the gentleman. There`s got to be a reason for that, and he may be looking for -- for instance, the computer and the cell phone, as a predicate for finding evidence to justify murdering his wife.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: A mom gets a tattoo for her 11-year-old -- whoa, is that mom? She`s covered with ink.

Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com, joining me from L.A. -- Alexis, I know tattoos are all the rage in your neck of the woods. But even in L.A., even in L.A., tattooing an 11-year-old girl yourself?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: Completely outrageous. This mom did it. She is only 11. She gave her a tattoo at home all on her own. And her reasoning? Her defense is, well, it`s what she wanted and we talked about it and that`s -- so I decided to go ahead and give her a tattoo.

GRACE: OK. To Clark Goldband, also on the story. Clark, what charges if any are the -- is the mother -- is the mother facing?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: She`s facing 60 days in jail, Nancy, and also a $1,000 fine. Now interesting enough, she`s not facing child abuse or child neglect charges at the moment. However, some investigators have said they`re considering it.

GRACE: You know, Clark Goldband, when you say 60 days behind bars you almost sound happy. Do you have any tattoos, Clark, that you`d like to share?

GOLDBAND: No, I do not.

GRACE: Well, 60 days and a $1,000 fine for permanently marking your child?

GOLDBAND: Yes, yes.

GRACE: With me is Ami James, tattoo artist at Miami Ink and New York Ink owner.

Ami, thank you for being with us. When you see an 11-year-old little girl come in, would anybody in your shop give her a tattoo?

AMI JAMES, TATTOO ARTIST, MIAMI INK AND NY INK OWNER: Absolutely not. It`s really funny that you ask, but in my shops, I do have minors coming in with their parents and my shops, I -- the legal age is 16 in Florida, but I still choose to only tattoo 18-year-olds and over. For the mere fact that you`re just not mature enough to make a life-altering decision that the age, and I feel consciously a lot better knowing that at 18 you make the choice for yourself and not your parent.

Being a parent of two, you know, I can`t even imagine my daughter coming up and saying, dad, I want to do drugs, and I just say yes, no problem, as long as you do it with me, we`ll be fine. You know, it`s just absurd.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Dan Winslow, Kirby Clements, Marla Chicotsky.

Dan, there are a lot of things that the law does not allow children to do. We do not allow children to buy liquor, buy cigarettes. They cannot enter into a contract. They can`t get married. They cannot consent to sex. Why? There`s a legal reason for that, Dan.

DAN WINSLOW, FORMER JUDGE: Well, the children aren`t capable of consent and in circumstances like this the legislature in North Carolina has decided that no child, even with their parents` permission, should have permanent ink on their bodies any where.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Evan in Kentucky. Hi, Evan, what`s your question?

EVAN, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Yes. I don`t understand what you guys are all coming down on this mom. She was a tattoo artist and it is her own daughter.

GRACE: Evan, did you say you`re from Kentucky?

EVAN: Yes.

GRACE: Well, I`m sure the whole state is embarrassed tonight.

All right. Let me go to you, Caryn Stark. Help me before I jump through the screen and grab Evan in Kentucky around his neck with a little finger necklace.

What`s wrong with tattooing your little girl?

STARK: It`s permanent. It`s permanent. When she gets older, if she changes her mind, you have to go through laser treatment to get that off. You`re making a decision for a child and a child cannot make a permanent decision. It doesn`t make any sense.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Pam in South Dakota. Hi, Pam, what`s your question?

PAM, CALLER FROM SOUTH DAKOTA: Hi, Nancy. I`m just wondering, if your child is under 18, they usually need consent of the parents. Since this was her parent, what`s the big deal?

GRACE: Well, Pam, you also need consent to drink, or to smoke cigarette. If the parent lets a child drink, is that OK with you?

PAM: It`s not OK with me, but you know, tattooing is a little different than, you know, letting (INAUDIBLE).

GRACE: Really? Why? Because after the hangover, you`re dome with the drink. It`s out of your system. A tattoo is forever, Pam. So why is that OK with you?

PAM: It`s not that it`s OK with me, but some people, you know, they actually, you know, pierce their baby`s ears. I mean, I almost feel like it`s the same things.

GRACE: I don`t know why you feel that way. I appreciate your emotions, but ears, when you don`t wear an earring for a long time, they grow back. It`s normal again.

With me right now is detective Christopher Morning from the Havelock PD.

Detective, thank you for being with us.

DETECTIVE CHRISTOPHER MORNING, HAVELOCK POLICE DEPARTMENT: Thank you for having me.

GRACE: Hi, Detective. How did you guys first become alerted to this?

MORNING: I was informed by the Carteret County Sheriff`s Department of this tattooing incident. They had originally investigated the grandfather of this same 11-year-old girl for an alleged incident of peeping tom.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. What did you say about peeping tom?

MORNING: The Carteret County Sheriff`s Department first learned about this tattooing of this 11-year-old girl because they were investigating a case of alleged peeping tom against the grandfather.

GRACE: OK. I get it. What is -- Detective Christopher Morning with us.

Detective, what is the mom`s explanation as to why she gave a permanent tattoo to her daughter? By her own hand, she just happened to have tattoo utensils.

MORNING: She does have her own tattoo kit and all the supplies. I guess it`s a hobby of hers, and a year and a half ago when she was here in Havelock, she told me that she and her daughter were just having a conversation about tattoos and it came up, and that`s when she gave her her -- her daughter that heart-shaped tattoo.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: American hero Marine Private 1st Class Jason Estopinal, 21, Dallas, Georgia. Purple Heart, National Defense Service medal, loved running, soccer, paintball. Parents Claire and Jason, brother Parker.

Jason Estopinal, American hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It makes no sense. No sense at all.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mommy dearest turns tattoo artist on her 11- year-old daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Odessa Clay tattooed a small heart on her daughter`s shoulder.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This is Odessa Clay.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And she lives in North Carolina where tattooing children is illegal even with a parent`s consent. But Clay says she didn`t know that and her daughter asked her for the tattoo.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist, in-home tattooing? What are the dangers?

ARNALL: Well, this individual apparently tattoos for a hobby. It`d be no surprise if that equipment is contaminated with hepatitis virus or even AIDS virus, so I think you have to have the kid tested now and then test her later to determine whether mom has infected this kid a potentially deadly hepatitis virus.

GRACE: Renee, Connecticut, what`s your question?

RENEE, CALLER FROM CONNECTICUT: What about a temporary tattoo or something so she could see what a tattoo was like, so that she would learn about it rather than to have a permanent ink injected into her.

GRACE: Renee in Connecticut, you`re absolutely correct.

Celine in New York. Hi, dear, what`s your question?

CELINE, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. It`s so great to talk to you.

GRACE: Thank you.

CELINE: But my question is, has the mother ever been in jail before? Because she looks so happy in her mug shot.

GRACE: Good question. Yes.

CELINE: It`s nothing to her.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Celine, you`re right.

Let`s go out to Detective Christopher Morning with the Havelock PD. Has this mom ever been arrested?

MORNING: Yes, ma`am. She does have some prior charges, yes, ma`am.

GRACE: For what?

MORNING: Possession of stolen goods, possession of drug paraphernalia, and misdemeanor larceny.

GRACE: Oh, here we go. Sam in Texas, what`s your question, Sam?

SAM, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Has the daughter complained about the tattoo since? Is she already sick of it?

GRACE: Good question.

Alexis Tereszcuk, Radaronline.com, what do we know?

TERESZCUK: Well, what we know is that this mother no longer has custody of her child. The child`s grandmother actually has custody.

GRACE: Congratulations tonight to Michelle, graduating cum laude in communications, and to Sam, graduating with a double major in biology and IT.

And happy birthday to Florida friend, Annie. She loves bingo, bowling and dominoes.

Happy birthday, Annie.

I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END