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Jodi Arias Trial; Too Sexy Too Soon
Aired January 8, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): A day of graphic, bloody testimony in the Jodi Arias trial today. Arias cried while the jury was shocked at crime scene photos and sexually explicit pictures.
I want to know -- is Jodi Arias yet another Casey Anthony trying to fool the jury with emotional outbursts? And who do you think is ahead so far, the defense or the prosecution?
I`m also talking about a case in Steubenville, Ohio, where a 16-year- old girl was allegedly raped while boys photographed her and videotaped themselves joking about the tragedy. I think our kids have crossed into dangerous territory. But why? One answer may be overexposure to pornography at a young age.
We`ll speak to a teenager who is part of a movie about just that and hear what she has to say.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome to the program.
We`ve got a lot of territory to cover this evening. Joining me this entire week is my co-host, relationship coach Laura Baron.
And want to first pick up, Laura, where we left off last night with the Steubenville case, which is, we said in that intro, this is a situation where there`s allegations of rape, a girl was, a young age girl, 16, 15, severely intoxicated, allegedly taken advantage of.
But the part that I find most vivid and most disturbing was the commission by omission. That is to say, kids all around watched this go down and didn`t step in. They omitted their obligation. They didn`t understand the obligation and then went further, videotaped themselves, these young males, a group of them -- not the same ones who allegedly perpetrated the act.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: Right.
PINSKY: These young males having fun at her expense, laughing about how she was dead. Laura, we`re going to show footage of this later in the show tonight. But I insisted Laura sit down and watch all 12 minutes.
BARON: It was horrifying.
PINSKY: I needed to do give her some nausea medication before she did it.
PINSKY: But what are your thoughts now?
BARON: It was the most horrifying thing, Drew, that I have seen. The most horrifying, the things that these young boys were saying is that she`s dead, who knows if this was rape or not because you wouldn`t be able to ask her because she wouldn`t be able to respond --
PINSKY: Because she`s dead.
BARON: Because she`s dead.
PINSKY: And who cares.
BARON: And who cares. And then there was one guy on the tape saying, what if it was your sister? And the guy was -- and they had even made fun of that. Just every aspect of objectifying this girl --
PINSKY: Degrading, objectifying. Sexually abusing -- I mean, there was every sort of -- you know, if they had just sliced her into pieces, it would have been the next step, right?
BARON: It almost would have been kinder -- honestly, it almost would have been kinder if she really was just dead, because what they were saying about her and what they were willing to participate in, they knew their buddies were raping her. They knew that their buddies were in the next room with a girl that was practically unconscious.
PINSKY: Yes. And for me, the fact that, again, we have young people that don`t know when somebody has used a substance to the point of un- arousability, they need to go to the emergency room right away. People die of alcohol excesses. But we`re going to get to that later in the show in great detail.
First up, we`re going to visit the Jodi Arias story. She hid her hair -- she hid behind her hair and cried today. Some people called it a veil of hair as grisly photos were shown to the jurors. She is on trial for murder in the death of her former boyfriend, Travis Alexander.
She first denied any involvement with him and then finally said, oh, no, no -- sounds like Casey Anthony again, right -- I had it wrong. I did kill him. I killed him in self-defense.
Joining me to discuss: attorney and legal analyst for Avo.com, Lisa Bloom.
Also, I`ve got attorney Darren Kavinoky, host of "Deadly Sins." This is on Investigation Discovery. A new season begins Saturday at 9:00 p.m.
And "In Session`s" Beth Karas, who is at the courthouse tonight.
Beth, please bring us up to date. I know you`ve been on "Nancy" and she`s been crawling all over the story. But bring us up-to-date with the highlights.
BETH KARAS, IN SESSION: Well, today was another gruesome day with photos. I believe the worst is over because the medical examiner testified and he detailed all those numerous knife wounds, the combination of incise wound slices, as well as stab wounds all over his body. And he did say he basically bled to death and there were three fatal injuries.
He gave what he thought was an order: at least a stab wound to the heart had to be first because he had defensive wounds on his hands. And he said a shot to the head which went through the brain and that slashed throat, which was four to five inches deep.
It went back to his spine and severed his windpipe. He never could have had defensive wounds. He wouldn`t have been able to fight with those two wounds. So, the stab to the heart had to have come first.
So photos of these were shown, and you just talked about Jodi Arias hiding in her hair.
You know what I thought, Dr. Drew? I watched Jodi throughout this. She was sneaking a peek at all of these photos.
It`s as though those photos, one could argue, made her cry a little bit more. So she kept crying, but she was looking and then she`d cry, and she would always sneak a peek as they put up a new photo.
PINSKY: Beth, you --
KARAS: She wasn`t hiding her head from those photos.
PINSKY: Do you get a spidey sense about here? Does anything in your gut tell you about who this woman is, Jodi Arias?
In fact, the footage, I like the way -- before you answer that, I want to say the footage being played alongside of me is her sort of looking like a librarian.
And what I find fascinating also, we`re going to have an expert in here to talk about psychopaths and how they behave. But she seems to have adopted I lot of the demeanor and physical properties of her attorney.
PINSKY: What does your spidey sense tell you, Beth?
KARAS: You know, it`s interesting. She is a woman that has such self-confidence. She told "Inside Edition" months ago, years ago, actually, that no jury would ever convict her. That`s a statement that may come back to haunt her, because the defense fought to keep that out, and the judge said, no, it`s coming in, but a latter part of that, she kept out, which was I`ll never spend a day in jail, and she`s been in jail since July 15, 2008.
So she`s spent time in jail for plenty of days. But she said, no jury will ever convict me. She took on this jury.
This is a woman who makes up stories that will kind of fit whatever the evidence is at the time. As she learned, apparently, that there was more and more forensic evidence placing her there and incriminating her, she kept changing her story to fit it.
And the other thing, Dr. Drew, is if she hadn`t thrown that camera, the digital camera, in the washing machine after deleting all the incriminating photos, if she had taken it with her like she did the gun and the knife, this would be a very different case. I don`t know if she ever would have been charged.
Maybe she would have been charged, but it would have been a very different case.
PINSKY: What is it about that camera? Help me understand that.
KARAS: Well, she had taken a series of -- she and Travis had taken a series of photos that day -- the camera, the digital camera, was Travis`, a new camera, and she loved photography. She was a photographer. It had date and time stamps on the photos.
There was three sets of photos as the prosecution described them. The first set is the two of them naked having sex, then they took pictures of each other naked, some of them very, very explicit. That`s 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon.
And then closer to 5:00, 5:30, Jodi is taking pictures of Travis in the shower, tasteful pictures. She`s not in the shower with him because it`s a small shower stall separate from the tub. She`s taking waist-up pictures, and he`s posing.
He`s about to go to Cancun with another woman, Marie Hall, who was a witness in the case, and Jodi knows that. And he had been losing weight and getting in shape and he`s posing. And then the last photo of about 20 she takes of him, he`s crouched in the shower and she takes a picture. She`s got him in the vulnerable position she needs him in, says the state.
KARAS: And she stabs him and then fight begins.
PINSKY: The fight begins.
KARAS: And the last photos are inadvertent photos, by the way. The camera went off accidentally. There are actually a couple photos during the killing.
PINSKY: Gives you chills, doesn`t it? You have disgust in your face.
BARON: Yes, it`s horrifying. Well, clearly, sometimes crazy sex is just crazy.
PINSKY: Well, that`s a whole conversation.
Lisa, a quick question before we go to break. How is this woman going to avoid the death penalty?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s what this whole trial is about, Dr. Drew, trying to make her look more relatable, the glasses, the hair in face, you know, she`s Ms. Nicey-nice. There`s just hoping that a couple of jurors are going to spare her for the death penalty.
And I got to tell you, women do better when they were accused of violent crimes. White women do best of all. If she were male, if she were African-American, she`s more likely to get the death penalty in our system, I`m sorry to say so.
There is a possibility she gets found guilty but does not get the death penalty. Let`s see how it turns out.
PINSKY: Thank you to Beth Karas for that report.
And we`re asking a question of our viewers, who is the bigger monster, Jodi Arias or Casey Anthony? Call me to discuss. We`ll put you on the air. The number is 855-DRDREW5. That`s 373-7395.
Be right back.
PINSKY: Welcome back.
My co-host this week, Laura Baron and I are discussing the Jodi Arias trial. And what Jodi perhaps has in common with Casey Anthony. Both are criers, both are liars.
Joining me now to dig further into this is clinical neuroscientist, Michelle Ward.
Now, Michelle, I made an observation last break that everyone seemed very interested in, including Beth Karas who was in the courtroom all day, is that when you look at these images of Jodi standing next to her attorney, she looks like -- if you can play that tape next to me here.
See that, Michelle, she seems to have adopted the demeanor and appearance of her attorney, which to me is something a psychopath would do.
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., CLINICAL NEUROSCIENTIST: Well, right. Or she could be under the advice of a jury consultant or her attorney. And they`re playing to the jury. I am also --
PINSKY: No, but, Michelle, you`re a jury consultant, I understand that. But it`s too good. You know what I mean? It`s one thing to say I`m going to show you how to act, it`s almost like they`re attuned to each other in some kind of way. I`m looking at the way they`re standing. They even kind of move in unison. That`s a weird thing.
WARD: How good is it if we can obviously pick up on it?
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough, fair enough.
WARD: I mean, she`s playing to the jury. And, you know, I mean, and, of course she should. I mean, she`s trying to, you know, get a lighter sentence if convicted.
But -- I mean, in reality, she should. I mean, she is looking like the part of the innocent victim here where it`s a very different picture than what we`ve seen before. I mean, she`s not the blond bombshell that we saw before. This is a demure, innocent person.
I don`t know if this is of her own accord or if someone is advising her, but it`s very obvious.
PINSKY: And what I`m trying to sort shine a light on it, I`m bringing this issue up. What psychopaths is they behave the way they think people would behave if they were having an emotion.
WARD: That`s right. And that`s why we see her crying as well.
PINSKY: Right. So the crying is what she thinks a person would do, if sad, having looked at these horrible images.
WARD: One of the researchers of psychopathy said this that, a psychopath knows the words of emotion, but the music of it.
PINSKY: Oh, it`s --
WARD: It`s a second language to them. So, they can learn it, oh, OK, this is what I do here. This is what normal people want to see, but they don`t feel it. They don`t experience it, they just learn how to mimic it.
PINSKY: Darren Kavinoky, you seem to want to get in here. I know you have a ton of things you want to address. Let me start out with this one thing. It seems like the courtroom has a tendency to want to blame the victim. That seems to be a big part of the defense here, to make the poor guy that got slashed and slaughtered the problem.
Is that a good defense?
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I don`t know whether it`s a good defense or not. Ultimately, it`s going to be up to the jury to decide whether that`s a defense that`s ultimately effective. From the defense case perspective, you`ve got to play the cards that you`re dealt, and if their defense that they`re hitching their wagon to is, indeed, self defense, you`ve got to put the victim on trial, as it were.
But I do agree that this is a case that ultimately a victory would be keeping her off death row.
And, of course, as Lisa pointed out, and I agree with this and the data supports it, that women tend to fare better, and Caucasian women in particular, when they`re accused of capital offenses.
That said, in Arizona, of the four women that had been put on death row since 1973, all four of them are Caucasian women. So if we`re going to be playing the odds there, perhaps being a white female in Arizona isn`t the best.
But that`s certainly something the defense has to be considering if they`re putting the victim on trial, is, number one, how to do it so that they can effectively defend their client, but how to do so in a soft enough way so that the jurors don`t hate her and punish her if they do finally get to a sentencing hearing.
The one final thing, Drew --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Darren.
KAVINOKY: -- that really puzzles me is about this whole lookalike business between her -- between Arias and her lawyer. Lawyers typically exert a lot of control in their client, because, of course, trial courts really are a theater. And effective trial lawyers like to control every element that they can.
It`s a little surprising to me to see this doppelganger thing going on here, because you would think the lawyer would be saying to her, look, we need to dress you a particular way, you need to look a particular way, and this lookalike business is pretty off-putting.
I`m wondering, Dr. Drew, given your background in behavioral health, how do you think this thing comes off?
PINSKY: Well, first, it immediately struck me as something a psychopath would do, frankly, because it`s just too much of an -- you know, behaving as if, behaving the way I think someone is supposed to behave. Oh, my attorney, she would be a good person to -- is that your gut tell you that, too, Laura?
BARON: Yes. The question that I have actually is that you still see her psycho eyes. I mean, she might have little glasses on them, but doesn`t it get to a point where somebody is so -- I guess the clinical term is psycho -- that they start physicalizing whatever is going on in their head? You cannot look at this woman and not think, like, whoop.
PINSKY: Well, it`s technically, I`m sure that, Lisa, the jury is being instructed not to jump to those kinds of conclusions. Would you have an issue with your client dressing and looking like you? I know --
PINSKY: Yes, that`s what I would say.
BLOOM: Yes, because I`m a lawyer, but I`m also a human being, and that`s creepy and, you know, get your own look, I`m sorry.
But I also say this, Dr. Drew, I noticed today, one of the clips, she`s got her glasses on -- you know, I have reading glasses I put on when I have to read something, right? But when she`s reading, she`s looking over her glasses as though the glasses are just completely blank, clear glass and not actually there to help her read.
If the jury saw that, they know it`s just part of a costume, too, then.
PINSKY: To be fair, I look over my glasses to read because I`m near- sighted. Maybe she wears contacts. Maybe those are really her glasses.
BLOOM: She`d never worn them before.
PINSKY: Which I find -- that`s bizarre, too, if she`s wearing near- sighted. She wears contacts in prison? That`s kind of weird. OK, anyway.
Let`s take a call. This is George in Massachusetts -- George.
GEORGE, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Yes, Dr. Drew. I`m a retired law enforcement officer.
And first and foremost, this crime was absolutely horrendous.
GEORGE: She killed an unarmed man inside of a shower. He had defensive wounds. She had no wounds, no visible injuries that she`s reporting or anything else like this.
I think it`s an absolute crock. I hope the jury gets it right. I hope they don`t let her walk like they did Casey Anthony. This is an absolute atrocity.
And shame on the defense team for putting the victim on trial. He was a victim. How do you accuse somebody who was taking a shower of physical abuse? She just calmly, coolly and collectively walks away from a crime scene. Never even cries for help.
PINSKY: George, let me ask something -- have you ever dealt with somebody that`s that cold-blooded in your career?
PINSKY: Oh, man.
GEORGE: Absolutely. And it`s absolutely sickening. The only thing that the D.A.`s office can do right now is to put the evidence out there and let her be seen for the vicious little nasty woman that she is.
PINSKY: Fair enough, my friend. I`ve got to go to break. I`m sorry, George.
I want to ask my attorneys, too, when we get back, also, do you think -- I don`t want to use all the adjectives that George used there -- do you think the defendant will be likely to be seen on the stand? I`ll ask that. Also the effect the grisly crime scene photos have had on our jury.
We`ll find these things out when we get back.
PINSKY: Laura Baron is back with me talking about the Jodi Arias trial.
The question is, what will the graphic crime scene, photos and autopsy, photos as well, have on these jurors? How can they be objective?
And, Lisa, the second part of that question is will we likely see her on the stand?
BLOOM: I think no. And I`ll tell you, that`s because she lied a couple times about what happened, and it`s hard to imagine that they`re going to actually put her on the stand and subject her to cross examination by a prosecutor who is going to shove all those lies down her throat.
So I`m sure her attorney is going to say no. If she wants to, it`s her right. She can get up there and she`ll definitely be convicted if that happens.
PINSKY: And, Darren, is the grisly nature of the photos likely going to play into the jury`s decision-making?
KAVINOKY: Yes, you can`t unsee those things once you`ve seen them. It`s powerful evidence. Prosecutors love them, defense lawyers hate them. It`s highly likely it will be influential.
And I absolutely agree with Lisa on this one. It would be a horrific move for her to take the witness stand. You generally only want to do so if there is some essential element only the defendant can speak to. But, of course, she`s got the absolute right to do so.
And if everybody is as crazy as everybody thinks, you may just see her up there on that stand.
PINSKY: And, Michelle, you`re a jury consultant. And imagine when a jury sees these sorts of grisly, horrible crimes, they want to -- they want justice. They want to take out their retribution on somebody.
So, do you advise defense attorneys? Do you -- does it matter who is sitting in those seats? Is that the bottom line here? How does that work?
WARD: Well, it`s interesting, with human psychology, of course, they`re going to be incredibly affected by these photos, but they habituate to them. So, if they`re going to see them, as a defense attorney, I want them to see -- well, I`m not -- but if I were I was advising a defense attorney, I`d want them to see them over and over and over again because they habituate to them.
I`ve worked on a lot of crazy murder cases, and that`s what I say. Hey, if they`re going to see it, let`s over-show it, because they do eventually get used to it and it doesn`t have the impact.
PINSKY: So it`s not as bad after repeated exposure.
PINSKY: Michelle, let me ask you this question. What do you suspect could make somebody snap like this? Was it premeditated and she`s just a psychopath and she was getting retribution for this guy cheating, or did they get in an altercation where suddenly they have her violent?
WARD: It`s worse than that. She`s a stalker. She`s an absolute stalker.
She presented like a typical female stalker, the obsessive thoughts. She tied up her identity with this relationship. As soon as there was an infidelity, she responded with rage, and that`s what we see, this kind of irrational thinking.
And on top of that, she now looks like she`s an absolute psychopath. I don`t normally see that presented that way. I mean, obviously stalkers have a similar pattern to one another, and she fit perfectly into that. And now, I`m looking at her just like a regular murder I deal with.
PINSKY: So, Laura, you have her parked outside an old boyfriend`s home, and kind of waiting to see if his car is there.
BARON: Like five times.
PINSKY: That`s stalking behavior.
BARON: But I did not kill them.
PINSKY: I understand that. I understand that.
BARON: Because I`m a lady, Drew. Because I`m a lady.
PINSKY: So, Michelle, just for the record, she`s not a psychopath. Stalker, but not a psychopath.
WARD: Hey, we`ve all gone to the crazy place.
PINSKY: I don`t need to know that about my guests, by the way.
BARON: Now you do, drew.
PINSKY: Lisa, you? No, Lisa, no?
PINSKY: Thank you, Lisa. I know I could count on you.
BLOOM: Let them go! If they don`t want you, let them go!
KAVINOKY: Drew --
PINSKY: Darren, real quick, go ahead.
KAVINOKY: Yes, one quick thing. On this issue of self-defense, if the jury is buying self-defense, and that`s a big if, the number of stab wounds may actually be helpful and here`s where those grisly photos can work, because people --
PINSKY: Show the hand wound here if we can.
Go ahead, Darren. Go.
KAVINOKY: When people are engaged in self-defense, the number one thing on their mind is stop the threat. And so that means repeated behavior. So typically if you`re shooting with a gun and it`s truly self- defense, you`re going to empty the magazine. You`re going to empty the gun.
If a knife is your weapon of choice, you`re going to see multiple stab wounds. If you`re truly defending yourself, you`re not going to just strike once and hope that`s doing the job. So, if they`re buying it, and that`s a monumental if, that`s something we can expect the defense team to try to spin to their advantage. A tough sell but that`s what we`re going to see.
PINSKY: Guys, I`ve got to take a break.
Thank you, my excellent panel. Darren Kavinoky, thank you for joining us.
Next up, we`re discussing the Steubenville rape case. I`m going to call the local authorities about my stalking, other than Lisa, just on Michelle and Laura, to be clear.
BARON: Oh, great. Thanks, Lisa.
PINSKY: So, the question here, could porn -- the Steubenville thing, we`re going to talk about -- whether or not porn at an early age could be hurting your kid without you actually knowing it. That`s coming up in the show. Be right back.
PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m joined by my co-host this week, Laura Baron. I have been, I like to say, like exercised about this Steubenville, Ohio, rape case. I`ve been worked up about it. It`s not just that two teen boys are charged with violating a 16-year-old girl. It`s bad enough. It`s -- and she -- apparently there is footage out there of her looking not just drunk, but like unconscious, basically.
And then other videos that I made Laura watch today of these young males making light of, is the kindest thing I can say about what they thought they were doing, and instead they ended up going into territory that -- just the territory they entered makes it sad, makes me concerned that we`ve entered new territory with our young people, and we, as parents, better be really paying attention here.
So, back to discuss with me is Attorney Lisa Bloom from Avo.com and clinical neuroscientist, Michelle Ward. So, Michelle, I haven`t really talked to you about this case at all. Did you have a reaction to the males` behavior here?
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., CLINICAL NEUROSCIENTIST: You`re not going to like my reaction.
PINSKY: Oh, really? Go ahead.
WARD: It happened in my high school at least three times I can think of. I went -- you know when I grew up -- you know where I grew up, right next to you, and I think this happens a lot. I think it`s an unfortunate, horrible phenomenon --
PINSKY: Hang on, Michelle.
PINSKY: I agree with you that unwanted sexual contact and the consequences of intoxication of alcohol happen a lot. But for me, what graduated this to a new territory was the way the males around this event talked about it and recorded it and made it entertainment. That happened in your high school?
WARD: It absolutely did. It absolutely did. Police were even involved. But, the difference is, there weren`t mechanisms in all of our pockets to record it and put it on the internet. I mean, I don`t know the stats on it, but I know this isn`t a new crime, and I know the males joking about it and egging people on is also not a new phenomenon.
PINSKY: Well, yes, I know -- again, I understand a couple of males maybe not getting it right, but it seems like every male in the community, nobody is stepping in. Lisa --
WARD: Yes. It`s sick.
PINSKY: That`s the word. And Lisa, you`ve written a book about this.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Right.
PINSKY: Are you surprised that we`re seeing this?
BLOOM: I`m not. And I talk about this a lot in my bag "Swagger." This is the values of subculture. Look, when teenage boys are consistently showing these values, thinking that rape is funny, this is really the fault of all of us, parents, the media, everybody, because we give them the message that rape is OK, that it`s cool, that it`s funny.
Look in the video that we`re talking about from Ohio. The young man is talking About Mike Tyson and the movie "Pulp Fiction." Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist, and he now has a fabulous career and a lot of boys look up to him. And very few people even mention anymore that he is a convicted, forcible rapist.
I mentioned it, but very few other people do, right? And he`s a hero to boys. The movie "Pulp Fiction" in practically every video, TV, movie, and video game celebrates violence, the type of boys like.
So, this is where we are, and I wrote a book about what parents can do to push back and instill better values in our boys. Parents, teachers, all of us have to stand up and say, this is wrong. It is sick. It is harmful.
BLOOM: And don`t you dare celebrate this kind of behavior.
PINSKY: Well, and also, let`s look at the video of what these kids were doing. Just a second. We`ll take a couple of glimpses at it, but we have to also really counter-parent. We really have to recognize what`s raining down on these kids and discuss that, not ignore it.
Not say, oh, don`t look at that porn. They`re exposed to it. They`re getting it and got to go -- that is not love, that is not sex, that is not how two human -- normal humans interact with each other. Watch this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They peed on her. That`s how you know she`s dead because someone pissed on her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On a scale of 1-10 how dead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s at least a 14 dead. She`s deader than a doormail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is, she is, she is deader than Caylee Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s deader than Harvey Dent after Batman tackled him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There you go, Laura. Young men in America.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: It is so horrifying, because this could really be in any city, in anyplace.
PINSKY: That`s right.
BARON: Look at even the sex tapes that are getting sold. You know, there are girls who come up and say, no, I don`t want this sex tape sold, and then, suddenly, they`re huge megastars. There are no boundaries between what is private and what can be public, what is saying no, and what is saying yes. Girls need to take responsibility for this, too, by the way.
PINSKY: We`re going to get into that topic in the next segment. Lisa, you have a son and a daughter. I have sons and a daughter. What do you tell your kids? What have you done?
BLOOM: Well, first of all, they shouldn`t be watching or playing games or doing things that are celebrating violence at an inappropriate age. I agree with you after a certain point they`re going to watch it. And so, we, as parents, have to speak out loudly and consistently about our values.
We have to say, I don`t like it in the music video, the way that the women are being objectified. When we talk about rape, let`s talk about the life-long damage that causes to a woman. Death is not something to make light of. Rape is not something to make light of. You get some out there doing community service.
You teach them how to be good people. You instill good values. That`s one of the most important things that we need to do as parents.
PINSKY: We have a little more to say, but let`s listen to what`s being said on the tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if that was your daughter?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it isn`t
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it was?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If that was my daughter, I wouldn`t care. I`d just let her be dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen to yourself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m listening to myself fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARON: It`s really -- there`s just no empathy. There is no compassion. And that is what I think is so scary about this. That even if you have to sit down and watch this video with your kids, if you have to watch porn with your kids and then say, how do you think that girl felt when that happened to her? Have a realistic conversation. What did you say to your kids?
PINSKY: I haven`t discussed it with them yet, to be honest. It`s very uncomfortable to be -- I appreciate that it`s very uncomfortable to bring this stuff up. You want to avoid it. You don`t want to talk about it, but I will.
BARON: But why haven`t -- but why not discuss it yet?
PINSKY: I`ve been so upset about it, frankly, to tell you the truth. I`ve been like -- I have wanted to -- I`ve got to calm down before I can address this with my kids.
BARON: What would you say?
PINSKY: Tonight, I will say -- first, ask if they`re aware of it.
PINSKY: And just get their thoughts on it, and then talk about what it is that I think caused this.
BARON: What is it?
PINSKY: Michelle, I`m going to include you in this conversation. I think it`s these images that kids are being exposed to -- I think it`s two things. I think it`s -- like you said, lack of empathy, and Michelle, you and I both know that empathy is a very complicated process that develops late developmentally, and it happens in context of stable families. Would you agree?
PINSKY: OK. So, that I would tell them they`re lucky they`ve been in a stable family, and do they understand what empathy is? And do they understand what, like you said, what that girl would feel like in this situation? So, test to see if your kids have empathy. And then, secondly, question -- I`ll question you, Michelle, is there any research on the effect of all these crazy images just raining down on young kids?
WARD: Yes. You know, I know there is some research and I know a lot of it has to do with how children react immediately responding or immediately after watching violent video games --
PINSKY: I don`t care about the violent video games. I want to know about -- has anybody studied sexual objectification of women? Has that been really studied yet?
WARD: I don`t have any --
PINSKY: I don`t think it has been yet, but I think --
PINSKY: I don`t -- not the way it should be, anyway. I think this stuff, when the kids are exposed to at a certain age, picking the young males, I think it gets in their brain a bit.
WARD: But what do you think about the alcohol? I mean, these kids are three sheets to the wind. You know, this is your specialty.
PINSKY: It is. I don`t want to bore you with it because I`m very interested in that, but yes, I will talk about that more tomorrow. If adults are not paying attention to alcohol use by adolescents, every adverse outcome, you find alcohol. So, I`ll talk about how to address that tomorrow.
Thank you, Michelle Ward, Lisa Bloom. We`ll talk more about this.
Next, as I`ve said, we talked a little bit about young kids and porn. Huge problem that many parents are not -- it`s uncomfortable, but we are now going to talk about its effect on the young women. Young girls are going to tell us about that after this.
PINSKY: We keep asking questions about the Steubenville story. It may be one answer is the fact that kids at a very young age -- I`m not saying that kids are seeking this stuff. I`m saying if they can sit at a computer, which our kids do -- how old were your kids when they sat at a computer, eight, nine, and stuff pours down to them, they`re exposed to stuff, and we have trouble screening it out or they`re at the friend`s house and stuff pours down.
This just electronic stuff is everywhere. Joining me to discuss this are the co-creators and producers of documentary called "Sexy Baby," Ronna Gradus, and a teenager who appeared in that movie, Winnifred Bonjean, is that right, Alpart. Did I pronounce your name right, Winnifred? Bonjean.
WINNIFRED BONJEAN ALPART, STAR, "SEXY BABY": Yes.
PINSKY: Bonjean. Bonjean. Bonjean. OK. So, Ronna, before we talk about it, let`s watch a little clip from this documentary, "Sexy Baby."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED KID: I looked on the screen and there was this one Black guy, one Hispanic guy, and this one very blond woman. And, they were out on a lawn, and they were just, like, ferociously banging each other. It was very -- I mean, I came home. I was bawling my eyes out. I`ll never forget it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Winifred, I want to start with you. I really do appreciate you being willing to come forward and talk about this.
PINSKY: What`s happening? What`s your perspective on this? We didn`t grow up with this, and you and your friends do, or maybe, you haven`t been, but certainly, your friends -- have been exposed. What does it look like from your perspective?
ALPART: I mean, I think it`s really difficult, because as you said, I mean, our parents and all the generations before us have never had this so accessible. And because me and all of my friends do, we don`t really have anyone to kind of show us what to do. So, I think that`s a really difficult part of porn being so easy to get to.
PINSKY: Ronna, out of the mouths of babes, often great insight is produced.
RONNA GRADUS, CO-DIRECTOR, PRODUCER OF "SEXY BABY": Yes.
PINSKY: Did you learn something from these young ladies?
GRADUS: I think one of the most shocking things about making the film was sort of seeing how much kids know, and they`re very savvy, and we can pretend that they`re not exposed. I mean, not every child is, but a lot of them are. And, we just need to be able to speak to them about it, honestly.
And that`s why we made the film was because it`s time to have honest conversations about what they are really seeing.
PINSKY: And Winnifred, what do you think would be helpful for parents to do? Exactly what would that conversation look like?
ALPART: I think it`s really important for parents to make an effort to be available to their children. I think that if their kids have a question or concern or they see something that they don`t think that they`re supposed to see, they should be able to come to an adult, and especially their parents, someone that they trust, to talk about it.
I mean, they are going to -- I think I`ve said this before, but trust their parents over a porn star or Google.
PINSKY: Laura, do you have a question for the young ladies?
BARON: Yes, I do. First of all, I thought "Sexy Baby" was unbelievable. And Winnifred, I think you are so brave to share your life. You were brilliant in this. Brilliant. One question I did have for you is when your mom took away Facebook, your Facebook privileges a couple of times for you, and I know that you were very upset, what else could she do? What else could parents do to help control that access?
ALPART: Well, even now my parents have access to my Facebook. I mean, we`re friends and I`m not allowed to unfriend them. So, I think it`s important that even if your parents don`t really have your password, that they`re at least able to see what you`re posting. I know if I was a lot older and have children, I would do the same thing. At least be involved.
PINSKY: Lisa Bloom, you`re still here with us. Do you have a question for Winnifred or comment on this documentary?
BLOOM: Hear, hear. Look, I just salute both of you. And I want to say this is exactly what I advocate in my book. Parents would never let their children roam the globe unsupervised. They should not be online unsupervised. Kids should not be watching porn. Parents should not to give themselves over to the web as if we have no control.
We should absolutely have the user name and password to every site our kids visit. If the kids don`t like it too bad, they don`t get to go on Facebook. There`s too many suicide, bullying, porn. I mean, we have to assert control here. We have to not just sit back and assume that this is going to happen.
It does not have to happen. And the last thing I would say is the good news is is that all of the studies that I cite in my book are that kids` number one role model is mom and dad.
PINSKY: Of course.
BLOOM: And so, what we say is tremendously important to them. Yes, ask open-ended questions and have conversations, but stand up for your values. Speak clearly about your values. It has a huge effect on our kids even if they`re teenagers and they`re rebellious and they act like it doesn`t.
PINSKY: That`s right.
BLOOM: Trust me, it does.
PINSKY: Let`s go to Sarah in Ohio real quick. Sarah, what do you got?
SARAH, OHIO: It`s exactly what terrifies me everyday when I send my kids to school. All the kids have a cell phones and access to the internet, and I have no idea what my kids are looking at when they`re out of my house. It scares me.
PINSKY: That`s right. And so, Winnifred, you`re telling us that assume your kids have been exposed (INAUDIBLE) massively exposed, there` some exposure, and so, I`m still a little -- you know, I agree with what Lisa said. I understand the directions about staying on top of the internet, but once there`s been exposure, what kind of conversation, Winnifred, do you think would help you and your friends?
ALPART: Well, I think the most important thing is porn sex is not real sex, and I think a lot of kids are exposed to porn early, boys and girls, have a misconception that that`s what sex is and that`s what their role in sex is, and the roles are really defined, especially for male versus female.
And, I think if a parent is able to say, listen, like yes, that`s one part of sex, but that`s not going to be everyone`s experience, and hopefully, not your experience.
PINSKY: And Ronna -- go ahead, Lisa or Ronna.
GRADUS: If I can just add that -- oh, sorry.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Ronna.
GRADUS: That it`s also really important if a child breaks the rule -- I mean, we can give them rules, but they will likely break them or they`ll be on a school bus and see something, so it`s important that they do not feel ashamed like I broke -- I broke the rule, so I`m just not going to tell.
PINSKY: That`s right.
GRADUS: Because they need to talk to an adult.
BARON: Clearly crave guidance.
PINSKY: From parents, yes, they do. Again, I think the assumption is assumed the rules are broken, act accordingly. Just keep very powerful rules in place and try to anticipate what to do with broken rules. We`re going to talk more about this. I just got a million question. This is such an important topic. You can ask your questions, too, at 855-Drdrew5.
PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host, Laura Baron, and we`ve been talking about children being exposed to pornography before puberty, and the documentary called "Sexy Baby." Now, I think this is a massive parenting issue, but most, I think this is a woman and woman empowerment issue here.
PINSKY: I almost feel -- the whole story makes me very, very sad, I got to tell you, as a man and as a father. But I almost feel -- I don`t want to say embarrassed, but like I shouldn`t be here. This should be a conversation amongst women. So, I`m going to have you --
BARON: Drew, let me tell you this, though. After we discussed Steubenville last night, I got a ridiculous amount of e-mails thanking us for having this open conversation. And one of the things that these young girls are saying is thank goodness that there`s someone like Dr. Drew that maybe I can date someday. I mean, not that they`re wanting to date you, no offense. But I`m just saying --
PINSKY: But my sons are available.
BARON: Oh, this is true. We should talk about your sons. We should sell (ph) your sons.
PINSKY: I`m so glad you`re here, Laura.
PINSKY: But that`s sad that women have to look to television for their potential --
BARON: Or it`s amazing that -- or it is amazing that there is a gentleman that can come forward, and all of us, women, get to be aw women talking about such important issue.
PINSKY: Such important stuff. OK. I want you to take -- grab the crucible now. I want you to talk to Winnifred and Ronna.
BARON: OK. Winnifred, you know, one of the things I thought was really interesting in the movie is when you were talking about the difference between your online persona and your real persona. And I would love moms at home to get a full appreciation and understanding of what that pressure is for you. Can you help us understand that a little bit more?
ALPART: Yes. I mean, I think Facebook especially, when you`re kind of young and figuring it out, 12, 13, it`s a platform for you to give this tailored version of yourself, and it`s to -- I don`t know, 11,000 people. It`s a lot different than having a conversation one-on-one with a friend.
So, you have to put this, I guess, persona on to just be your perfect self. I think that`s really difficult when you`re 12 and you don`t know what perfect means.
BARON: And you also -- yes. And you also talked about those personas really fusing together and not really recognizing which one is you and which one is your persona. Is that what you experienced?
ALPART: Yes. I think sometimes you have to carry over your online persona to your real life persona, because if you`re saying something on Facebook, and then, in real life you`re contradicting yourself, that could pose a problem, I guess, socially.
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness.
GRADUS: I think it`s really important for kids to talk about this in their classrooms as well with teachers. I think we have a really antiquated sex ed. We actually have a version of the film for schools if your kids are too young to see the film. And everyone can watch it on iTunes, by the way. But, the thing is, kids need to have these conversations in front of each other.
PINSKY: And Ronna, how young is too young for this film, because you know, I would think 12 would be OK for this film. No?
GRADUS: Probably not 12.
GRADUS: Maybe 15, 16.
GRADUS: It depends on your kid, I would say.
PINSKY: The parents make that decision for sure.
BARON: It`s interesting because, I mean, porn is really the new homec.
BARON: It really is. I mean, this is where kids are getting their information. So with all due respect, I loved your film, and I would love to see it in the school systems, and I hope we push that to a younger audience, because they need it. Yes. They need that truth. They need that language. You made it so relatable.
GRADUS: We were actually on another show recently where they would not let us say the word "porn" on air. And meanwhile, kids are watching porn, but then, you know, responsible adults cannot use these words and talk about it.
PINSKY: Ronna, I`ve got to go to break, but I just want to thank you for doing this film. I think this is really a brilliant piece and it goes right at the issues we`ve been talking about. Before I go to break, though, Winnifred, just give me a couple of seconds on whether -- what your take is on at Steubenville tape. Did you see that?
ALPART: Yes. I mean, I think it`s atrocious, obviously. I think a lot of the shaming that`s happening is almost as atrocious as the actual act, and I really hope that there is, I guess, justice for the victim.
PINSKY: And finally, Winnifred, did you see male -- do you see males behaving like you saw on that tape? Is that something that`s going on, and do you think what you`re talking about in this movie has something to do with it?
ALPART: I think where you live in the country is important to, like, the kind of people you`re hanging out with. I think in my school, none of the boys would really act the way that the boys are acting in that video, but I definitely see a lot of the judging of the victim in my friends.
PINSKY: OK. Well, listen, hats off to you, Ronna. Thank you, Winnifred.
PINSKY: Yes, Winnifred, please come back and be a guest on my show.
GRADUS: Yes. Brilliant (ph) girl.
PINSKY: As soon as you become an attorney or a commentator or whatever is ahead for you, I see good things and would be happy to have you back. Ronna, "Sexy Baby" is available on iTunes. I want to thank Lisa Bloom also. I`ll be right back after this.
PINSKY: All right. Welcome back. Laura, now, all this that we`ve been talking about is terribly disturbing as it pertains to adolescents and young girls, but this is -- again, I see this as a bigger sort of women`s issue that we`re sort of unearthing here, no?
BARON: Absolutely. I mean, those young girls don`t know what healthy sex should look like, but I got to tell you, neither do older women, either. Neither do adult women. All women have this pressure that they`re supposed to be swinging from chandeliers and that`s how they`re supposed to be a great sex partner.
PINSKY: Yes. I`ve actually written a book about intimacy. And when people -- when you say intimacy, people think you`re talking about physicality.
PINSKY: Intimacy is an emotional -- it`s two people being close to each other, and we`ve lost the capacity for that. And to take this all the way back where we started from, talking about people with empathic failure, people have no empathy, empathy, the capacity for empathy is not an intellectual thing. You can`t teach it.
PINSKY: It builds in intimacy.
PINSKY: And you took issue with me for saying stable families.
BARON: Well, yes, because nobody knows what a stable family is these days.
PINSKY: So, let me refine that and say stable, intimate, sustained, close, healthy relationships.
BARON: But I don`t know that people understand what that looks like. I don`t.
PINSKY: I agree. Well, I`m writing a book about that.
BARON: Oh, good. I`ll buy it.
PINSKY: Laura, thank you.
PINSKY: When it comes out, I`ll let you know about it. Laura will be back with us here tomorrow. I want to thank you all for watching. We will see you next time and of course to our callers (ph) as well and to my guest. And a reminder that "Nancy Grace" begins right now.