Return to Transcripts main page
Arias: Deadly Details
Aired January 9, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Another shocking twist in the trial of Jodi Arias. Today`s testimony showed that just hours after killing Travis Alexander, she went to be with another man.
And what the jury saw today. More bloody crime scene evidence. Is the jury influenced by her claim of self-defense after having seen such graphic pictures?
And later, we`ve been talking about the 16-year-old girl who was allegedly raped by two high school players and how it has played out on social media. It appears alcohol was indeed involved.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And let`s be clear. They knew she was drunk.
PINSKY: This just as a rattling new report, binge drinking among young women is dangerous, deadly, unrecognized, especially amongst high school-age girls. Sixty-two percent of high school seniors are downing six or more drinks at a time. Do you know what your kid is up to?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: First up, though, we are getting into this Jodi Arias case. Relationship coach Laura Baron joins me this week.
Now, Laura, the day after Jodi Arias kills Travis Alexander, she has said she did this, she goes to visit another man, Ryan Burns, and here`s what he said in court today about their sexual encounter just hours after she in fact murdered Travis. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN BURNS, TESTIFIED TO KISSING JODI ARIAS THE NEXT DAY: At some point, I mean, we were talking and we kissed -- eventually we kissed probably many times. Every time we started kissing, it got a little more escalated.
She was kissing my neck. I was kissing hers. But the clothes never came off. I never touched her breasts or anything like that.
At one point I had my hands on her thighs. She was -- you know, things were -- she definitely seemed to be into the moment. As she got on top of me, pretty aggressively, and we were kissing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Laura, I want you to give a woman`s perspective. This young lady brutally kills a guy. Viciously.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: Lady.
PINSKY: A lady indeed.
PINSKY: Viciously kills a guy, then heads on over to this guy`s house and assaults him sexually. Good times.
BARON: Yes. Well, I`m sure he had a good time. I mean, I`m sure there was a little roughness in that, let`s be honest. Let`s just say. But I have such a difficult time feeling any sort of sympathy for this girl, especially after three different excuses she throws up the abuse excuse.
And for all of the women who are actually in abusive relationships, I feel like she`s just making a mockery of it. Woman to woman, I have no sympathy. Nothing.
PINSKY: So you can`t find anything sympathetic about this girl? Let`s say this guy had been abusing her in some way. She snapped. Even so, forget it?
BARON: If he had been abusing her, but I`ve got to tell you, Drew, I don`t buy it. I`m just not buying it.
PINSKY: I`m with you on that. I am. "In Session`s" Beth Karas joins us now.
All right. Bring us up-to-date and tell us the significant of Ryan Burns` testimony today.
BETH KARAS, IN SESSION: I think you really have hit the nail on the head here. It`s her demeanor and behavior just hours after this brutal killing. The state wanted the jury to see that this is a woman who is a cold and calculated murderer. Of course the defense says I`m not, you know, she`s not a murder, this is self-defense, she killed him because she had to.
But he also said he saw some cuts on her fingers which were bandaged. And she said she cut her hand at work on a glass. And she was only there for 15 hours. So, it was really just to kind of put her before the jury, her demeanor the day after the killing.
PINSKY: And, Beth, let me ask you something. I`m going to ask you to respond as a woman, because this case is sort of generating a lot of feelings in women today. Do you react to this woman in any way to help me understand who she is or what prompted this behavior?
KARAS: You know, we don`t know a lot about her. We know she was in a four-year relationship and then when she met -- and she was living with this man. And then when she met Travis Alexander within a week or so, they were still living in the same home but apart from each other apparently and then it ended right away.
So, she fell very hard for Travis Alexander. We don`t know if she carried on this way with other men, though, this stalking behavior, this obsessive behavior. But I do know that her parents told the police that she was hard to control as an adolescent, was always running away, and she dropped out of high school. But she didn`t have a criminal record.
But as a woman this obsessive behavior, the stalking, I mean, I really can`t relate to it, but maybe she saw him as a meal ticket for her because he was a very successful young man.
PINSKY: Beth, you have to think with pathology in your soul. You have to think about somebody who`s not well.
Laura has admitted to a little stalking behavior here and there. She admitted to it --
PINSKY: -- in younger years.
This is excessive stalking. What came out in court for me made me start to think about dissociative identity disorder.
BARON: Which is what?
PINSKY: Which used to be called -- thank -- by the way, thank you, Beth Karas, for keeping us up-to-date in the courtroom. We really do appreciate it.
Dissociate identity disorder is what used to be called multiple personality disorder.
BARON: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: So literally it`s kind of complicated but one person goes under and another one emerges. One can be a psychopathic killer. One can be a kindergarten teacher. One can be gay and one can be straight. One can be male, one can be female.
And all these different personalities emerge with time. And literally when one is control, in control, let`s say the guy who went to --
BARON: So there`s two personalities.
PINSKY: There may be many, many, many. Many personalities. There`s usually an executive personality.
Look at her in court crying. Look at that, Laura.
PINSKY: Do you feel like those tears are from a deep place? Do you connect to an emotion there? Or do you feel like that`s just somebody who`s crying because, well --
BARON: I definitely feel like she`s removed, if that`s what you`re saying.
PINSKY: It`s fascinating you say removed because, again, a dissociative person would be upset and angry and removed from what happened and yet reacting to what some part of her did. So, it literally is a disorder of being removed.
BARON: So there`s a part of her that knows that she boiled the bunny.
PINSKY: Boiled the bunny and I can`t believe it, could that really have happened, oh, I`m so ill, oh, my -- woe is me.
BARON: Is that why she`s crying in all of the pictures? Because she recognizes that something is guilty --
PINSKY: Maybe. Or she`s a true psychopath and is just behaving the way she thinks she should behave, emotions that a normal person would emit if, say, they weren`t guilty.
BARON: So which girl do you think he was dating? Because I bet that guy liked a little crazy.
PINSKY: Well, he got it. He certainly got that.
BARON: Yes, he did.
PINSKY: Again, you`re scaring me a little, Laura.
But joining us now, Judge Karen Mills Francis, author of "Stay in Your Lane: Judge Karen`s Guides to Your Best Life." And criminal defense attorney, he has a Web site, speaktomark.com, Mark Eiglarsh.
All right. Karen, what does it do to Jodi`s case to know that she killed a man viciously, I mean, just brutally, and then goes and hangs out with another guy and doesn`t seem fazed in the least?
JUDGE KAREN MILLS FRANCIS, "STAY IN YOUR LANE" AUTHOR: Well, you know, I think, and you should know this, I know you know this, dr. Drew, is when there is a dysfunctional relationship, usually that dysfunction is going on both ways. You know, in an alcoholic relationship usually somebody is an enabler.
The victim grew up in a home with two drug addict parents and spent a lot of his childhood homeless, in and out of homeless shelters, sometimes living in his car. That`s what I read about him.
So we don`t know what mental dynamics he brought to this relationship. But it was honestly a very dysfunctional relationship. I mean, she slashed his tires twice. She hacked into his Facebook page. She`s sending threatening e-mails to his girlfriends. She`s following him when he`s on dates.
And yet at 4:00 in the morning when she shows up, he welcomes her in and they have sex.
PINSKY: Yes. Karen, you are so right on with that. I mean, it takes two. And what I always say is that the traumas of the past attract us to a certain kind of people and certain kinds of situations. And why was he attracted to her? Laura says he liked crazy.
PINSKY: That`s one way of sort of summarizing and making it easy to understand that. But the reason he liked crazy is he grew up with crazy.
BARON: Of course.
MILLS-FRANCIS: He grew up with crazy. It feels comfortable, familiar.
PINSKY: Mark, do you agree with all that?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sounds good to me. But you know, who knows better is someone like yourself. You know, I`m only as good as the experts that I can call on a case.
And I`d like to put you on call right now and ask you, Drew. If I called you as a defense expert and I asked you to support the defense theory which they`re advancing, that somehow this was domestic violence related, it was self-defense, she finally just exploded. I`m putting you on the spot. What would you tell the jury to support the defense theory?
PINSKY: Now, remember, this is not my personal belief. This is me working for you, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Yes, that`s correct.
PINSKY: I would bring up exactly what Judge Karen just brought up and talk about the probability of that trauma inducing aggression and potential violence in him, which we don`t know if he had. I don`t want to -- I hate this idea of making the victim -
PINSKY: I hate it. It disgusts me. But you put me on the spot here.
EIGLARSH: But their expert is going to give facts that is going to support this theory.
PINSKY: That`s going to happen. And then I would talk about her having been triggered by al that and sort of playing it and maybe dissociating. All right, guys.
BARON: You don`t take responsibility away from anybody.
PINSKY: Well, unfortunately, you are on to something there, Laura.
BARON: All right. Next up, the tape played in court, Jodi talking to police after the killing and a physician who used the courtroom evidence to recreate the viciousness of Travis Alexander`s death.
And later, binge drinking putting large numbers of women in danger. That`s right, their lives in danger. This also harkens to our topics of the Steubenville, Ohio case.
All of that after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZACK BILLINGS, FOUND TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S BODY: They did end up seeing a pool of blood and looked down the hallway and saw just blood strewn throughout the hallway. I ended up going into the closet that`s adjacent to the hallway, and it opens up to the bathroom as well. And that`s when I saw his body, and I came back out, and I just told everybody, he`s dead. Call 911.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And that was one of Travis Alexander`s roommates talking about what he saw when he found Travis`s body after a brutal murder.
Mark first, then Karen -- what do you guys think the effect of seeing and hearing al this graphic evidence is doing to the jury?
EIGLARSH: It does the same thing in this case as it does in every single gruesome, atrocious, and cruel homicide case. It absolutely makes them more likely to want to hold responsible. That`s the human response.
And I don`t know. The defense in this case, I don`t see it. And I think you take the atrocious nature of this defense. You add in the fact that they`re blaming a guy who would have given you the shirt off his back according to witnesses, who`s like just a perfect type of fella, and you get an angry jury willing to convict and they`re going to then bring that into the penalty phase eventually and hold that against her.
PINSKY: Karen, do you agree, is this really about keeping her out of the death sentence?
MILLS-FRANCIS: Well, I think this defendant is in trouble --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
MILLS-FRANCIS: I think this defendant was in trouble before these pictures even came into evidence. I mean, for God`s sake, she`s given three different stories. I wasn`t there. Oh, yes, I was there, but then there were two masked people that came in and killed him. Oh, well, no, that didn`t happen, he beat me up. Oh, yes, I went to work after that at a Margaritaville and cut my hand and then went and made out with one of his co-workers. I think it --
PINSKY: Thank you. By the way, thank you, Karen. By laying it all out like that you see how ridiculous it is. You`re right. Lies and lies.
MILLS-FRANCIS: No jury is going to -- no jury is going to convict me. So she`s already built a hole for herself. These pictures just throw more dirt into that hole.
PINSKY: I wonder if the control room could please put alongside of me here the pictures of her with her attorney today because people are very fascinated by how alike she`s made herself up very much like her attorney. And when you see the two of them relating to each other, there`s the picture coming up now. Let`s see if we can get the attorney in the picture.
It`s un -- it`s spooky how much she wears the coloration, the glasses, and moves with and mirrors the attorney in a way that kind of gets spooky.
And my theory about dissociative identity disorder kind of fits with that, where people are so empty that they are just chameleon-like and take on the people they`re around. She sees the attorney as someone she needs to emulate because -- there she is. See how they`re kind of -- it`s just - - if you think of it in those terms, it gets spooky. But I`m going to bring in another guest.
Laura, you wanted to add something?
BARON: I just think it`s interesting they think she looks more psycho blond than brunette.
PINSKY: Who`s they?
BARON: One for the brunettes. Right?
PINSKY: What you`re saying is you shouldn`t die your hair blond is what you`re saying.
BURNETT: This is true.
PINSKY: Joining me to get further into this is a board-certified pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd. He`s performed over 500 autopsies.
Dr. Lloyd, thanks for joining us today.
Based on your experience, can you lay out for me -- just let`s forget that -- this is not a court of law. This is viewers and TV trying to make sense of this. Just paint the scene for me. Who was she? What kind of condition was she in? What does she do to this guy? What was the sequence?
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST AND SURGEON: Yes, every autopsy tells a story, including a murder autopsy. And I call this story reverse psycho.
Oh, yes. There was mayhem in the bathroom. But this time, the pretty woman was outside the shower. And she was the one that was wielding the knife.
Now, we have to understand the sequence of these injuries because they tell the story as to where the body was and how it ended up back in the shower. So this gentleman, Travis, took a couple of stabs perhaps to the back first, turning around and protecting himself. A defensive posture --
PINSKY: That`s the hand -- there are the hand injuries we`re looking at right now. Good. He tried to defend himself and pow, she attacks him.
BARON: So gross.
LLOYD: There`s two of them. There`s the active defensive posture. That`s the cut that`s right down in the webbing there. He`s actively defending himself.
And then on the back of the hand as he covers his face the knife cuts --
PINSKY: Go back to that one if you would to see that.
LLOYD: And those are called passive defensive injuries.
PINSKY: Got it.
LLOYD: So he`s had a couple of injuries now. Hands, on his back. And then comes the big lunge into his chest.
Now, Drew, you`re a doctor. You know, the human body, how about five quarts of blood?
And when you get near the major vessel like the vena cava, up in the middle of the chest --
LLOYD: -- your blood circulates through there six times per minute. Six times five, 30. That means he starts bleeding at a horrendous rate of 30 gallons a minute. He doesn`t last a minute.
PINSKY: Doesn`t last long.
LLOYD: There`s an enormous amount of blood. So now he`s --
PINSKY: Have you seen the neck footage? I wanted to show it tonight. I thought it was important. I really did.
BARON: It`s gross.
PINSKY: But the network -- it`s not gross. It is gross -- but it`s not gross but our job is to examine what happened here. When you see it, she cut him right up along the neck line all the way across down to his spine. It was uncanny -- did you see those pictures, Dr. Lloyd?
LLOYD: I did. And it`s a very clumsy Mafioso attempt to slit this gentleman`s throat.
But you bring up the very important point, layer upon layer. What kind of person? I`ll ask you. You are America`s expert on this behavior. What kind of person is it that stabs somebody in the chest, then slits their throat and then later shoots them in the head?
LLOYD: You mentioned dissociative behavior. What about borderline personality and that connection?
PINSKY: I agree with you. I think this is sort of -- again, I don`t want to cast aspersions on people with borderline. It`s a common condition. Doesn`t mean they`re going to be murderers.
But as you get into the severe borderline with love addiction, with a history of aggression, with perhaps violence perpetrated against her, they said she ran -- Karen tells us that she ran away from home as a child. That`s not normal behavior. Something was already going on.
And there`s none of the psychopathic antecedents like torturing animals or showing absolutely no empathy. There`s more of a chameleon-like sort of person here, and that is more in that borderline spectrum here to the point of what they call dissociative identity disorder.
Let me ask Mark. If the defense were wise, would they want to stay away from those kinds of explanations or is that something they should try to use?
EIGLARSH: They`re going to use it in the penalty phase once she`s convicted. All that becomes relevant to try to save her life, try to create some mitigators, reasons why they shouldn`t kill her versus the aggravators, which are obvious in this case. You don`t bring that up in the case in chief. They`re alleging self-defense. They`re alleging he was the aggressor and they`re just going to trash him throughout the trial, hope that it works.
It won`t. And then we`ll go into the penalty phase where they`ll bring all that in.
PINSKY: Laura, here`s what I want to do. You seem -- you`re worked up about all this, yes?
BARON: Well, first of all, this is so disgusting. I mean, to look at all the pictures --
PINSKY: There`s him in the bathroom now.
BARON: That was nauseating. I`m equally nauseous again.
PINSKY: It`s sick but this is what happens. If we`re going to examine this thing we have to unflinchingly look at this. Don`t bring our kids in the room to talk about it, but let`s -- if we`re going to look at this let`s look.
BARON: I agree. But I`m going to flinch.
PINSKY: Yes, yes. I`m not saying I want to look at it. Just if we`re going to do this, let`s do this.
BARON: Right. But all of those things you that talked about, like her running away and all of those like -- all of that craziness, addiction in her family earlier.
BARON: -- isn`t that enough? I know you guys are talking about dissociative and borderline. But all the of those things, isn`t that enough to just make her go --
PINSKY: Yes. It is all those things. What are the circumstances where someone could be out of their head quite literally? These are some of the conditions where that could happen. What Dr. Lloyd is referring to is borderline rage. Is that not what you meant?
PINSKY: Borderline rage.
LLOYD: But, you know, she has planned this, Drew. She planned this.
LLOYD: This had been all laid out. This was no snap decision. She`d been stalking this guy for a very long time.
PINSKY: And that`s that rage that`s unremitting and just consuming. It`s very different than some of these other sorts of crimes we`ve been talking about. Now, we`ve got lots of great calls coming in. I want to hear from you. The phone number is 855-DRDREW5.
And later, another thing that`s still got me upset is, of course, that Ohio case where the 16-year-old girl was allegedly raped by two teenage boys. There`s now some studies that have just come out connecting binge drinking and young girls with precisely these sorts of outcomes.
We`ll talk about that. Stay with us.
PINSKY: OK. Now, we are discussing the Jodi Arias case, and we are getting into it a little bit. I want to remind people what I`m trying to explain is this idea she may have an identity disorder where she sort of takes on people she`s around or may have these other identities that are sort of hidden within her that come out or one dates this guy, another dates another guy. It`s a very complicated disorder.
You still want to know, Laura, which one the victim was dating.
PINSKY: The sex addict.
BARON: And rightfully so.
PINSKY: There we go. Cynthia -- I`m going to go right to calls. Cynthia in New Jersey. Cynthia, go ahead.
CYNTHIA, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Yes, I`ve got one word for you, Dr. Drew. Psychopath.
CYNTHIA: Is her and Casey Anthony friends? They`re very similar. They`re both chronic liars. They both claim abuse.
You know? I mean, it`s ridiculous.
PINSKY: And, Karen, weren`t you saying earlier that it was the victim that had a history that was pretty chaotic in his childhood?
MILLS-FRANCIS: Yes. It was the victim who had the history. But you know what I`m willing to bet you, Dr. Drew? That once this jury convicts this defendant we`re going to hear about the type of childhood and life she grew up with, because I believe that they probably should have gone on some sort of defense of temporary insanity.
MILLS-FRANCIS: Because I believe issues of her mental state are going to be an issue in the death phase of this case. So why are we talking about that now? We created this smoke screen with domestic violence when the real issue is that you are dealing with somebody with some sort of serious emotional disconnect.
She planned to kill him when she went there because she had a gun and she had a knife. But guess what? She sexed him up before she killed him. Who does that?
PINSKY: Well --
BARON: Somebody with manners.
PINSKY: This chick does. That`s the bottom line.
Listen to this tape from a police interview with Jodi Arias two weeks after she killed Jodi -- after she killed Travis. Watch this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: I shouldn`t have done it but I grabbed his phone and I looked at his text messages. And I found, there were tons of girls that I`d never heard of. And I knew that he knew a lot of people from the business. So I didn`t worry too much about it.
There were like plans, like things like where do you want to meet? I don`t know. Where`s the best place for us -- wherever the best place for to us make out is.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Laura. You react to that. That`s what she came across. Made you pretty angry, right?
BARON: Well, it is just -- you know what it is? It`s that she gives girls that have moments of psychotic notions a really bad name. You know? I mean, as we were saying yesterday, everybody has their crazy moments. But can`t you have good sex and not slit the dude`s throat 27 times?
PINSKY: I guess that`s the question we`re asking.
Mark, let me go to you. Mark, this is, again, some of the Casey Anthony-esque qualities of this case, being defensive, trying to explain away just egregious behaviors.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Well, the analogy stops because the evidence in Casey Anthony, according to those jurors, fell short of showing exactly how this happened. In this particular case it`s not a whodunit. We know exactly how it took place.
And I agree with Judge Karen. The defense should have been -- and it wouldn`t have worked, by the way, should have been some type of insanity defense. It wouldn`t have worked. But winning in this case from a defense perspective is defined by doing everything you can to get the best possible outcome.
That defense, insanity, wouldn`t work. Neither is this going to work. But you`re trying to save her life. So by having the mental -- the state of mind come out during the guilt phase, that then will flow over into the penalty phase.
PINSKY: Got it. I want to bring panel --
EIGLARSH: You don`t insult the victim the way they`re doing.
PINSKY: I get it. Hey, Dr. Lloyd, before I let you go, I want you to hold up that knife again for me.
LLOYD: You bet.
PINSKY: And tell me this.
PINSKY: Is this -- is this likely to be the kind of weapon that she used?
LLOYD: In order to reach the vena cava, this thing`s going to have to be more than four or five inches in depth. And again, remember-w that cut on the hand, it`s clear that Travis was trying to actively stop the knife. He didn`t do a good enough job.
PINSKY: Please be careful. You`re making me feel the willies here.
All right. Thank you. Mark Eiglarsh and Dr. Lloyd. We will be talking much more about this case in the days to come. Please keep watching.
Next up, binge drinking and young women and what role it may have played in the alleged rape of an Ohio teen. The dangerous trends in teens and women and binge drinking when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`ve been talking about the 16-year-old girl who was allegedly raped by two high school football players and how it has played out on social media. It appears alcohol was indeed involved.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And let`s be clear. They knew she was drunk.
PINSKY: This just as a rattling new report, binge drinking among young women is dangerous, deadly, unrecognized, especially amongst high school-aged girls. Sixty-two percent of high school seniors are downing six or more drinks at a time. Do you know what your kid is up to?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): I simply cannot say this enough. Every time something bad happens to our young people, to a teenager, you find drugs and alcohol. Whether it is unwanted pregnancy, unwanted sexual contact, an STD, an accident, a fight, whatever it is, look for alcohol because it`s always there.
According to the Centers for Disease Control, binge drinking accounts for about 90 percent of all the alcohol consumed by young people. Binge drinking for women defined as four or more alcoholic beverages in one evening. And for women about one in five high school girls binge drink, one in eight women age 18 years and older binge drink.
Women who binge drink do it about three times per month. And the average binge is six drinks. So, let me ask this week`s host, Laura Baron, what do you think six drinks would do to you? We know what it would do to Jodi Arias.
LAURAN BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: I would not be -- I mean, I could be in a clown suit on the floor.
PINSKY: So, you`d really be out of it?
BARON: I would be down.
PINSKY: It`s a lot of alcohol.
BARON: I`d be down. What is -- how do women metabolize alcohol differently than men?
PINSKY: Women, obviously the body is smaller, sort of the water content is different, and there`s a stomach enzyme that women lack that converts alcohol into a less toxic substance. So, they metabolize it slower. They get more of it in their system more quickly, and they dilute it less so they get much more effects of alcohol.
BARON: OK, fine.
PINSKY: About five times more likely to get cirrosis than men.
BARON: Oh, my gosh! Can I ask you what I really want to know?
BARON: So, which goes down faster, vodka or champagne? Like which is more damaging?
PINSKY: I don`t even want to talk about the way kids are going around all that these days. They`re chugging in different directions, let`s just say. Just use your imagination.
PINSKY: Yes. It`s very serious.
BARON: Like --
PINSKY: And they -- here`s the problem is you can get in the alcohol overdose very, very easily. Now, what people don`t understand is people die of alcohol-related excess. Can you guys throw up the data in the control room? The data that shows the differences between gun deaths versus alcohol deaths and men versus women.
Do we have that up there? Can we pull that up? I think I may have it. No. Apparently, we don`t -- have it? Don`t have it? There we go. All right. Let`s compare now annual firearm deaths to drinking deaths. Last year 8,500 Americans were murdered using firearms. The annual number of alcohol-related deaths for female, 23,000.
BARON: Oh, my gosh.
PINSKY: And in 2009, over 18,000 males died. That`s 41,000 alcohol deaths compared to 8,500 gun deaths. Again, we have to shine a light on this. This is what kills me about the alcohol -- the Ohio case. That girl is so intoxicated she can`t walk, she can`t talk. She would stop breathing. She could aspirate.
That happens very, very commonly. Karen, do you have any sense of why these alcohol-related deaths aren`t getting the kind of attention they should be?
JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, AUTHOR, "STAY IN YOUR LANE": Well, we don`t know where they`re coming from. Are these people who died as a result of a DUI? I mean, how many people die because there`s a drunk driver? So, when you say alcohol-related deaths, maybe some of these deaths, the victim wasn`t under the influence of alcohol. But Dr. drew, you know where I`m going with this story, though.
PINSKY: Tell me.
MILLS-FRANCIS: Which is where I always go, which is back to the parents. This girl left her house at night, supposed to have been going to another friend`s house for a sleepover. Did mom call the friend`s mother to say did she make it there tonight? Is everything OK? Did she check in with her daughter? Did she drive her there?
PINSKY: Hold on, Karen. You may feel differently about -- well, you may or may not feel differently when I share the next story with you. This is Kathi Sullivan. She`s joining us from Massachusetts. Her 17-year-old daughter, Taylor, binged and died. Kathi, what happened?
KATHI SULLIVAN, TEEN DAUGHTER DIED AFTER BINGE DRINKING: Well, unfortunately, my daughter had gone out with some friends for the night. And she`d been at a homecoming party. And she ended up at two house parties. And then, at the end of the night, she was at an abandoned airport. And she ended up drowning in two feet of water. We found her three days later.
PINSKY: I am so sorry.
SULLIVAN: (INAUDIBLE) on her system.
PINSKY: This is --
SULLIVAN: It is, and unfortunately, I know that you just mentioned did the parent know. You know, unfortunately there`s a lot of parents out there that have, you know, the capabilities of knowing their child`s somewhere, but other times, you don`t. I mean, my personal circumstance, my daughter was supposed to be sleeping over at a friend`s house that night.
Somewhere she had slept over forever. Her car was there the next day. Nobody called to say she wasn`t there. And I started looking for Taylor in the morning on Saturday when she didn`t come home. And perfect example. You know, I know I`ve done myself many things that I wish I could take differently and do again.
But another example, you know, with the parents and the co-parenting, Taylor had been at a -- at the football game, sitting on the bleachers, and somebody I`d known my whole life had sat there with her, knew she was drinking, knew she was drunk, and just asked her simply, are you driving?
PINSKY: Yes. Kathi, I`ve got to interrupt you. I`m sorry. That drives me insane, because the parents, adults need to understand the seriousness of high school age kids drinking. It is not, well, kids will be kids, what are you going to do? That -- you are signing the death certificate of some of these kids. And if not that --
MILLS-FRANCIS: I don`t think their parents and friends of parents feel that they can say something to a child or that they can discipline a child. This is a different world we`re living in now. Everybody wants to mind their own business.
PINSKY: Yes. I think, Karen, that`s unfortunate. Look at this beautiful young girl in these pictures alongside Karen, alongside of me now. This is no joke. This is a healthy young vibrant girl, dead, alcohol-related death. It`s just --
SULLIVAN: It`s not acceptable anymore.
PINSKY: Kathi, thank you. And please, speak up more about this. Thank you for sharing the story. Go ahead, finish your thought.
SULLIVAN: And on another note, I know how you said, you know, parents are afraid to speak up. But that woman came to my house two weeks after Taylor`s funeral and had to sit on my couch and say to me, I am so sorry, I didn`t call you. And at that point, I couldn`t change anything. And I wasn`t going to put that on her.
But when I go to schools and I speak to talk about Taylor`s message, I talk about that with the parents. And the parents realize that you know what, that could have been a better phone call and it would have been my responsibility as her mom to make that choice what I did with her that night.
PINSKY: You`ve got to co-parent. We have to look out for kids. Big people take care of little people. We don`t be cool with them. We don`t support behaviors that we know adversely affects their health. Thank you, guys.
Next up, parents of boys, you`re not off the hook either. The numbers about boys and binge drinking are worse. What you must know? Stay with us.
PINSKY: Now, I know I said I was going to talk about boys, which I am in just a second, but Laura and I started getting into it during the break here and I wanted to give you a chance to do it. Go ahead.
BARON: Yes. Well, I know many parents who believe that if they know that their children are going to be drinking, they would rather have them drinking at their house. At least, they know where they are. At least, the kids are going to be safe. At least, they can take their car keys.
PINSKY: Generally, a huge mistake. Yes, great in terms of drinking and driving. Bad in terms of almost everything else you can imagine. First of all, that age group doesn`t understand it`s OK here but not here.
BARON: They don`t understand, but the parents are there to monitor them.
PINSKY: No, because they will do it here and here and here and here.
BARON: But at least you can contain the kids in your own house.
PINSKY: In that night. And by the way, if anything goes wrong, which it will if there`s --
BARON: You`re screwed.
PINSKY: If there`s an unwanted sexual contact, if there`s something - - some aggression that goes on, you, the parent, are responsible for whatever happens to all those kids because it`s so far out of line. I always told my kids, you go to a party where parents are giving to teenagers alcohol I will show up with the sheriffs and I`ll have those parents hauled away.
I`ll be laughing my butt off on the lawn because I know, I see in my practice all the time all the horrible consequences of that thinking. Yes --
BARON: I understand, but where are you going to put your kids, Drew?
PINSKY: No alcohol. You don`t drink. You don`t do it.
BARON: OK. Come on. And then, you`re also going to close your legs. You`re never going to have sex and you`re not going to get married until you`re 74.
PINSKY: You just don`t do it. And we have to -- Kathi, help me out on this. Don`t you agree -- have a unified friend (ph) on this.
BARON: Oh, my God. She`s going to agree with you.
PINSKY: Well, maybe not.
SULLIVAN: Obviously, I would agree with you. But you have to realize there`s no safe way for them to drink.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right.
SULLIVAN: I`ve heard stories after story, people falling down stairs, cracking their head up. The kid steps over them, they don`t know (INAUDIBLE)
PINSKY: And if it were the case, if it were the case that it was, you know, less adverse outcomes in certain circumstances, what we`d say, at least. this limits the -- it doesn`t work like that. The adverse outcomes are just as bad in whatever environment parents dream up other than saying we -- kids don`t understand other than very, very firm boundaries. Very firm. Clear.
It`s not OK to smoke here and not smoke here. No. You don`t smoke. And that`s that. Then that`s it. That`s all they can respond to. Let me try to take a call. Araceli in Arkansas. What do you got?
ARACELI, ARKANSAS: This conversation drives me insane for the simple fact that we can go on forever and ever about these stories and consequences. What I do want to say, and I`m glad to be on the show -- thank you for taking my call -- is to empower parents to say no. To stand up --
PINSKY: That`s right.
ARACELI: -- to the police, stand up to the television stations, to their cell phones. I`m a single mom of three kids.
PINSKY: Oh, boy. Hats off.
ARACELI: I`ve been a single mom for ten years.
ARACELI: I`ve been a single mom. You know why I was a single mom for ten years? Because I decided to get married. I decided to have kids. And when I was in college going to school to become a police officer and my kids were going wayward, I had to stop and say, you know what? Who is this education going to be good for, you or for your kids that you`re currently raising?
And the problem that I found out was that many parents, many teachers were afraid -- are afraid to say no. You know what? It`s no, and it`s no.
PINSKY: My dear, Araceli, you got it, baby. A lot of the conversations we have on these shows about these kids are entitled, that`s our fault. That`s the parents` fault, not the kids` fault. We`re the ones who create that. Thank you, Araceli.
Let me get through some of the data here about the men. Oh, I beg your pardon. This seems something more interesting to me. I`m going to pull the tape up of the young males reportedly drunk talking about that alleged rape in Steubenville, Ohio, and we`ll talk about that. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They peed on her. That`s how you know she`s dead because someone pissed on her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On a scale of 1-10 how dead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s at least a 14 dead. She`s deader than a doormail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is, she is, she is deader than Caylee Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s deader than Harvey Dent after Batman tackled him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Karen, I`m going to ask you to respond to that. I don`t know if you`ve seen those videos, but it just has me so worried that we have gone into a new zone with our young kids. What do you say?
MILLS-FRANCIS: You know what? We have to ask permission? We`re sitting here telling parents don`t be afraid of your children. I mean, where have we gone to? I look at this drinking problem. When we were growing up, they glamorized cigarettes, remember? So, cigarettes were cool and everybody smoked and we realized that it was leading to a whole lot of death. So, we ended it.
And I think that there`s a lot of glamorization of drinking. If you listen to these rap songs, "Blame it on the Alcohol." They have vodka bottles that are named after some of these musicians and performers. So, these kids are getting this idea that there`s something really cool and glamorous to drink.
MILLS-FRANCIS: But these children can look at these videos and laugh about it, it tells us there`s something really wrong with our society.
PINSKY: Karen, I`m with you. Let me give you some data here on binge drinking. Forty-five percent of current ninth-graders admit -- 45percent, current ninth graders. Fifty percent of 10th-graders, 58 percent of 11th graders, 62 percent of 12th graders admit to binge drinking. Kathi, do you feel like you`re having any effect on this? Are you reaching parents? Do you feel helpless?
SULLIVAN: I don`t feel helpless because I`m reaching parents and I`m reaching kids. And I know that they`re making better choices because of Taylor. I absolutely know it. One parent called me and said that their child was alive because they had heard of Taylor`s message and that they made better choices because of it.
And their 15-year-old son was passed out on the side of the road and his friends picked up his cell phone and they called his mother and said what do we do with him. Twenty hours in the ICU, that boy survived because of Taylor.
PINSKY: See, people don`t understand that. That is not a kid that was different than the young girl that was being hauled around those disgusting young kids were just talking about. And by the way, let me say something, too. That male that you just saw in that video, he, himself, is getting attacked now and had to leave college.
PINSKY: No, not good.
PINSKY: No, no. Not OK.
BARON: Are you kidding me?
PINSKY: You can`t vigilante this. Listen, that kid --
BARON: I go rogue on this thing, Drew.
PINSKY: Laura, that kid needs to be educated. We need to bring him along. He has to be endangered because of this. That`s as insane --
MILLS-FRANCIS: Are you going to go rogue on the whole gang?
PINSKY: Go ahead, Karen.
MILLS-FRANCIS: This thing went on all night -- this thing went on all night long from party to party to party. Several people. They said at least 50 people saw this girl being urinated on, being fondled sexually, and nobody called the police.
MILLS-FRANCIS: And nobody called their mother to say mom, this is going on, what should I do? It`s a bigger problem than just pointing the finger at one person.
BARON: Of course. But we --
BARON: We also need to shock these kids and instill some compassion. Maybe they --
BARON: Maybe there is a little humiliation that needs to go on.
BARON: But there is something because what we are doing is not working.
PINSKY: But he doesn`t need to be endangered.
BARON: Of course not.
PINSKY: He doesn`t need to lose his ability to go to school. That`s as sick as what he did, maybe sicker. And so, listen, guys, let`s get our heads around these things and start to form a community.
MILLS-FRANCIS: If we started to lock up some of these parents, if we started to lock up some of these parents for these children`s behavior, I think we`d start to see a change in the child`s behavior.
BARON: I agree.
MILLS-FRANCIS: I think it`s time for parents to be parents, not friends.
BARON: I agree.
PINSKY: Thank you to Judge Karen Mills and to Kathi Sullivan. Thank you so much.
Next up, we`re going to change gears entirely and talk about a social media website that maybe I can recommend, believe it or not. It`s for kids created by a kid. Back after this.
PINSKY: Easy access to adult`s social media is exposing our kids to content that may be harmful. Zach Marks created a website just for kids when he was only 11 years old after he got in trouble for doing something that most kids do. He`s here with his dad, Darren. Zack, what did you do, buddy?
ZACH MARKS, 12, CREATOR, GROMSOCIAL.COM: Well, when I convinced my dad to finally let me go on Facebook, he really wasn`t more of like a Facebook guy, so he didn`t really know at first. I convinced him, told him all these safe settings on there for him to do, so he let me on. I friended a bunch of people, adults. I probably had 600-plus friends.
I was seeing adult cursing, stuff I shouldn`t have seen, and my dad`s best friend caught me. My dad`s best friend told him, you`d better go on. You`d better check him out.
PINSKY: Darren, what did you think?
DARREN MARKS, CAUGHT SON USING FAKE FACEBOOK ACCOUNT: I wasn`t happy.
DARREN MARKS: I was kind of surprised that he built up 600 friends in a matter of a couple weeks. It was kind of disturbing to tell you the truth.
PINSKY: And so, what did he come back at you with now, Zach? What did you do?
ZACH MARKS: I was like -- we kind of had a little argument at first. And before that, I was like -- I went on, made another fake account, friended the exact same people.
ZACH MARKS: And my dad`s same friend caught me again. We had a pretty big argument, which I felt like he should be mad because I lied to him and everything. I told him what if I make my own safe social networking site out there.
PINSKY: Zach, slow down, buddy. So, let me understand this. You`re in the middle of a conflict with your dad. He`s telling you -- he`s being a good parent. He`s saying enough of this. It`s got to stop. And you, in the middle of that, got this idea, well, I`ll create my own world, my own social media world?
ZACH MARKS: Actually, before that, I looked if there was any more -- any social networking sites already out there, but they just weren`t -- they didn`t (INAUDIBLE). They were older guys creating it. They didn`t know what kids would like. So, me and my brothers and sisters, my sister, Caroline, my brother, Luke, my brother, Jack, my brother, Dawson, and not so much my really younger sister, Victoria, all sat there at the table. We drew sketches and everything.
PINSKY: We have some of those drawings, in fact. Let`s take a look at those while we`re talking here.
ZACH MARKS: OK.
PINSKY: And then, finally, they were executed. Now, Zach, what is it -- we`re running out of time here, but tell me what is different about this site and why would I ever recommend it to kids?
ZACH MARKS: Well, what`s different about the site is that there`s characters. It`s created by kids for kids. The characters will interact with you. There`s all stuff on there just for kids. It`s safe.
PINSKY: Why is it safe?
ZACH MARKS: Because it`s -- when you sign up, you put your parents` e-mail in. So, if someone`s friend requested you, it goes to your parents` e-mail. So, if you approve it, it still goes to your parent. So, you can approve it, but if your parent declines it, then you`re not friends with them. Everything goes to the parent. And --
PINSKY: You could go for this, couldn`t you?
BARON: Yes. Fantastic.
ZACH MARKS: And within like two or three weeks, a parent gets a Grom report card saying all their stuff, their chat history, who they were chatting with, what they clicked on, what they viewed most.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s fantastic. So, it`s like a little -- listen, Darren, good job, my friend.
ZACH MARKS: Thank you.
DARREN MARKS: Thank you.
PINSKY: And Zach, genius, my friend. I think that`s just kind of -- I think I could recommend this. I`ll go on it myself, take a look. It`s called Grom, G-R-O-M, social.com.
ZACH MARKS: Correct.
BARON: It`s safe.
PINSKY: I hope it`s safe. I`m going to take your word for it, Zachy.
ZACH MARKS: OK.
PINSKY: All right. I`ll be right back after this.
DARREN MARKS: Thank you.
PINSKY: Very interesting topics this evening. I want to thank Laura Baron for joining me all this week. It`s been a delight. You`ve done a great job.
BARON: Thank you.
PINSKY: You`ve really contributed. And what I like so much tonight is that you bring a perspective that so many people at home are thinking or doing. And you know, we want to make sure they`re represented in the show.
BARON: Well, thank you, but, you know, anytime we start talking about something I do, I put it out on Facebook, I put it out on Twitter, and I want to know what people are thinking. And you know what? We are a little uneducated about this stuff. I mean, these are really important topics.
PINSKY: And the Jodi Arias case is not going anywhere. We will stay on top of that.
BARON: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: I think we`re all going to be glued to the television as that sort of --
BARON: She riles me up, Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s interesting. Does she -- let me ask one quick question.
PINSKY: Does she evoke violent fantasies in you?
BARON: I mean, what are the violent fantasies --
PINSKY: Well, like you`d want to -- I don`t mean sexual fantasies.
BARON: No, I know.
PINSKY: Like I want to strangle her --
BARON: But I really do -- it bothers me. It most bothers me that she uses now abuse as a defense.
PINSKY: Well, she hasn`t yet. She hasn`t yet. And listen, I`m just saying I think she`s so empty inside that she takes on all these personas and we`re going to learn about that --
BARON: And women, I think, have a very difficult time even relating to her.
PINSKY: We`ll find out more about her, I think, in the penalty phase than in the actual trial.
PINSKY: Thank all my guests tonight. I really do appreciate all the input. Of course, those of you who called, we had excellent calls tonight.
PINSKY: And, of course, as well, the viewers at home, we appreciate your watching and staying with us. It`s going to be interesting next week. A reminder, "Nancy Grace" is up next. She starts right now.