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Jodi Arias Defense Demands Mistrial

Aired January 10, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: The defense in the Jodi Arias trial just dropped a bombshell in court moments ago, demanding a mistrial. What`s the uproar around one investigator`s testimony? We`re going to tell you in a second.

Also what`s it like to be the victim of a stalker? We`re going inside obsessive relationships with people who survived. Two women who have survived serious stalking tonight.


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tracking Jodi Arias. In court today, Jodi Arias`s long, strange journey from California to Arizona. Prosecutors say she was on a mission to murder Travis Alexander. Do these receipts reveal a secret murder plan?

Plus inside the world Jodi Arias came from and why it might have made Travis`s life seem even more glamorous and appealing.

Plus, I`ll talk to another stalking victim who sees creepy parallels with her case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was what again?


RYAN BURNS, WITNESS: She got on top of me pretty aggressively, and we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some type of romantic event within hours of basically barbarically brutally killing someone you professed your love to?

STEVE FLORES, LEAD DETECTIVE: I answered that the gunshot was possibly first.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How deep was this wound?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It goes all the way back to the spine.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s 3 1/2 inches. That`s how deep that stab wound.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She could sneak into his house through the doggie door and sleep on his couch at night without knowing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had long hair, and when she came in and got in the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said she got lost. She got on the wrong freeway, and she was kind of airheaded like that.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER SUSPECT: There is an explanation for all of that. And that will be made known very soon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is saying she wasn`t present in their sexual behavior. She wasn`t emotional. She was dead inside.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight fireworks just now in the Jodi Arias courtroom as the defense demands that the judge throw the whole case out and ask for a mistrial. Jodi`s lawyers say that one cop made a huge blunder.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

The stunning 32-year-old admits she stabbed her ex-boyfriend 29 times, slit Travis Alexander`s throat from ear to ear, and she shot him in the face. Just look at these vicious wounds she left on his hands. Look at that. But Jodi claims she killed Travis in self-defense.

Of course, that wasn`t always her story. The prosecution played this clip from "Inside Edition," showing just one set -- just one set of Jodi`s many lies.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What really happened in there?

ARIAS: In a nutshell, two people took Travis`s life. Two monsters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did not shoot Travis?

ARIAS: No, I`ve never even shot a real gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did not stab him 27 times?

ARIAS: No. That`s heinous. I`d never...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t slit his throat from ear to ear?

ARIAS: I can`t imagine slitting anyone`s throat.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is heinous, and of course, she now admits, "Yes, I did it." In self-defense, she claims.

Now, Jodi`s defense hopes none of those lies will matter. Just a few minutes ago, they attacked the lead detective, Steve Flores, saying he made a big mistake, so much so that it should be a mistrial, throw out the whole case.

The medical examiner says Jodi first stabbed Travis and then slit his throat and, at the very end, shot him in the forehead as a final goodbye.

But Detective Flores testified Jodi shot him first before slitting his throat, before stabbing him. Listen to the courtroom battle.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what I asked you a few moments ago: did you take any steps to correct your inaccurate testimony? And you said no, it wasn`t inaccurate. It was a -- it was a misunderstanding. I`m confused. Is it -- is it inaccurate or is it a misunderstanding? Which is it?

FLORES: Well, it`s a misunderstanding of what Dr. Horn told me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a pretty big one, isn`t it?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Does the sequence of the attacks that led to Travis`s death prove self-defense? Or was Jodi a deranged, love-obsessed stalker, determined to kill him one way or the other.

Again, I`m going to talk to a woman in a moment who was stalked for a long time. Terrifying.

I want to hear from you. Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS; 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to "In Session`s" Beth Karas. You were in the courtroom for this extremely dramatic development. Take us there. What happened?

BETH KARAS, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Jane, you know, this was after the jury left, and everyone thought court was over, but all of a sudden the judge takes the bench again.

Jodi Arias comes out, not looking exactly the way she did throughout the day today in front of the jury. She now is not wearing her glasses, sitting up straight listening to all of this argument.

We don`t cover a lot of death penalty cases. We`re on the edges of our seat, wondering, "Oh, no is this going to be a dismissal or a mistrial, starting all over again?"

And that is because what you just said Detective Flores said at a hearing, that goes to the death-penalty issues, that the sequence of shots was the gun -- the sequence of wounds was a gunshot to the head first. And yet at trial it actually came out that it was last, that that`s what the evidence supports.

So the defense says, "We need to go start all over again with a new hearing to determine probable cause with this aggravating factor for the death penalty."

But the judge said, "No, it is cruel" -- that`s the aggravating factor -- "it`s cruel whether the shot to the head is first, or the stab wound to the heart is first. Regardless, all those wounds on his body were made while he was still alive or he wouldn`t have bled so much. He suffered. He suffered mental anguish. He suffered physical pain. This man knew he was going to die.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. One of the reasons it`s a death penalty case is because it`s extremely cruel, like you said, an aggravating factor that puts it over the top to a death penalty case.

But the defense is saying, well, basically, if she shot him first, it`s not as cruel. Therefore, maybe it`s not a death penalty case after all. Jodi Arias`s attorneys -- whoa -- they tried to get the judge to throw this whole case out.

Well, as you might imagine, prosecutors fought back, and they fought back hard. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis Alexander suffered. He was in physical anguish and mental anguish. And the defendant knew about it, because she killed him three different ways, and he had defensive wounds. Therefore, we ask that you deny them what they`re asking.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, host of "Deadly Sins." Season two premiers this Saturday, 9 p.m. on Investigation Discovery. Why did the defense make this such a big deal? I think the average person at home says, "Who cares whether she shot him first or stabbed him first? She killed him."

DARREN KAVINOKY, HOST, "DEADLY SINS": Well, first of all, the defense, especially in a case like this where, on balance, when you just look at this, you think, "Gosh, which side would I rather be arguing?" Most folks would rather be arguing the side of the prosecution. It seems to be the better reasoned pace.

When you`re in that position, the defense is in the business of making mounds out of molehills. So they`ve got to get whatever leverage they can.

But as you`ve pointed out with Beth, this is a death-penalty case. Very unusual, by the way, that you see women as defendants in death-penalty cases, but here it is, and the state is trying to execute her.

So in that particular case, the theory upon which to support that death penalty is that the crime was carried out with a particular callous, cruel manner. And if he was indeed shot first and then the stabbing happened later, then as you`ve articulated, he would not be conscious. He wouldn`t have that conscious awareness of his imminent demise, and therefore, this should be a do-over.


KAVINOKY: If you buy the defense position, this should be a do-over.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Jordan Rose, do you think it should be a do-over? That`s a pretty big mistake by a detective.

JORDAN ROSE: Look, this was not as much about if she was -- if she shot him or she stabbed him 27 times first. It was much more about discrediting this particular detective`s testimony. Because think about this. They just need -- they just need one juror in that jury room to say, "Wow, I really don`t trust that guy."

It doesn`t matter if it was a shooting or a stabbing, it`s all bad. Certainly, you can make a case either way that if she shot him first, if she stabbed him first, it`s better for her self-defense.

But this was all about discrediting the witness and causing some sort of reasonable doubt in the mind of just at least one juror.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Eric Swartzreit (ph), criminal defense attorney, does the defense have a point here? This is a pretty big mistake. I mean, it`s a high-profile trial. Figure it out, people. Figure it out, prosecution witnesses. It`s shooting, stabbing, throat slitting. It`s not that complicated. Figure out the order.

ERIC SWARTZREIT (PH), CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Death penalty cases are reserved for the most egregious cases there are. You have a female here, this alleged femme fatale. But you always want issues in a criminal case. A mistrial. Sometimes be careful what you ask for. If the case was going really well, I`ll tell you that they probably wouldn`t want this mistrial. But this girl has told more tales than Pinocchio. This case is spinning out of control for them. They want to ask for a mistrial. They want the issue.

Does it matter? Stabbed, shot, what happened first? Cruel, heinous, atrocious. Those are the issues for the death penalty, and it matters.

But I think is an issue of credibility, not an issue that the judge should grant a mistrial. That goes to the detective`s credibility and that`s an issue. And it`s a point for the defense with the jury, but not a point to get a brand-new trial and not a point for a do-over.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Lieberman, my producer tells me you`re champing at the bit. What do you have to say?

JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Let`s talk about credibility. I mean, the prosecution has done such a good job at destroying Jodi Arias`s credibility. She has zero. If you watching the case, the prosecution has done an excellent job of meticulously walking us through each one of Jodi Arias`s lies. She even lied about things that were inconsequential, like where she worked at a certain time. This case is about credibility, but it`s about Jodi not having it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, this is exhibit A for don`t predict the outcome of these high-profile trials. As I`ve said a million times, they are runaway freight trains. They can go this way and that at a moment`s notice. It`s like a Perry Mason show. Somebody walks in, and the whole thing explodes in your face. So don`t assume that this case is over. It`s just getting started. There is no such thing as a an open-and-shut case.

Let`s go out to the phone lines. Mary, South Carolina, your question or thought, Mary?

CALLER: Yes. Thank you, Jane, and thank you for all you do for our animals.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you for caring, as well.

CALLER: OK. I have two quick questions. One, why was Jodi living with Grandma and Grandpa instead of Mom and Dad? And...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. What you`re saying...

CALLER: ... the second one is, the ex-boyfriend with the child she lived with, is he going to testify about their breakup?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, take it away.

KARAS: Well, Darryl Brewer (ph) is the ex-boyfriend you`re talking about. And the defense did talk about him and show a photograph of him during opening statements, so I do believe we`ll hear from him or about him. But I think he may testify.

As for why she was living with her grandparents from April 2008 until she killed Travis or until she was arrested, we don`t have the answer to that yet. Her mother has been in the courtroom, however, but we don`t have the reason why.

I do know that she was a problem as an adolescent. Her parents had a hard time controlling her. And she used to run away a lot, and she dropped out of high school, but she did come from what sounds like a stable home.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we are going to be comparing Jodi Arias`s grandparents` home with Travis Alexander`s home coming up to show you why she may have gravitated towards Travis`s home.

And we`re also going to be talking to a woman who was stalked by her ex-husband for years. It`s a -- really, an epic case. She and a couple of other stalking victims are going to tell their incredible stories in a moment.


BROOKS: This is one of the knives that I carry. This has a three- inch blade on it, Vinny. And it`s a very, very heavy duty knife. And you see where this orange mark is? That`s 3 1/2 inches. That`s how deep that stab wound that the prosecution thinks was the first stab wound in the chest, just right over his heart. That`s how deep it went.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wants to paint the picture to the jury that this is a feeble little bookworm that could no way do these horrible things.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would sneak into his house through the doggie door and sleep on his couch at night without him knowing it.

ARIAS: He always said, "We`re not dating anyone else."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had followed us on the first date that we went on.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The victim, Travis Alexander`s, friends all talked about Jodi`s obsession with Travis even after they broke up. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that`s been bothering him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had followed us on the first date that we went on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve heard stories of her watching them sleep or I`ve heard stories of her watching through windows or doorways.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Following him around on dates, watching him sleep? This is very sick behavior. Could this kind of obsessive love lead somebody to inflict wounds like the ones we saw on Travis during the autopsy photos, if that love was taken away, if she felt rejected?

I want to go to Michelle Ward, psychologist, but also you are a stalking victim. And we are trying to figure out when love goes from, well, healthy love to obsessive love to stalking and when this one crossed the line. And I think part of the problem was that she could still get access to him. Whatever her allure was, she managed to convince him, I think. She`s the one convincing him to have just one more one-night stand.

MICHELLE WARD, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s what I would guess, also. And the thing is that the mind of a stalker is an awful place. I mean, they ruminate and just really fixate on this obsession. I mean, she`s not brushing her teeth without thinking of him. She`s not showering without thinking of him. And that`s what we`re seeing here.

You know, they translate every action into something having to do with them, the stalker does, and they can`t let it go. And you know the saying, "If I can`t have you, nobody else can"? That`s when we get a murdering stalker.


WARD: That`s exactly what Jodi Arias was feeling. I mean, she was not going to let Travis go. She couldn`t escape the hell that was her head. She wasn`t going to live any more with him on this planet. And that`s what I think happens here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think that the inciting incident -- and I agree with him -- the inciting incident was his decision to take another woman on vacation to Cancun, a woman who didn`t particularly like him. She said, "Well, I`ll go, but I`ll go as your friend. I don`t want to date you."

So it was almost like salt in the wounds: "Oh, you`re having sex with me, and you`re going to take this woman who doesn`t even want you, on vacation? I`m not good enough to take on vacation, much less marry?"

In one of her online conversations with this new love interest -- remember, after she kills Travis Alexander, she goes up to Utah and canoodles with another guy, Ryan Burns. Jodi admits to him that she secretly went through Travis`s phone -- cell phone, and on it, she finds the number of a woman she thinks Travis is dating, sort of two-timing her. Listen to what she decides. Listen to how Jodi Arias thinks.


BURNS: "I decided to text her back," quote, "`Time to cuddle with Jodi. Good night.` Then I deleted the message, went to sleep and never mentioned it to him.

"One day while he was taking a nap, I took his phone and read his text messages. Bad, I know."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bad, I know. She knows she`s doing something bad. She`s also accused of tire slashing, anonymous emailing, moving near Travis, hacking his Facebook.

Kristen Pratz (ph), you are a stalking victim and a victim`s advocate out of Orlando, Florida. What -- when you hear this litany of stalking behavior, does it remind you of what you went through?

KRISTEN PRATZ (PH), VICTIM`S ADVOCATE: It really does, actually. It`s almost textbook what probably happened to me, if Patrick my stalker, didn`t -- wasn`t arrested and wasn`t put on trial for stalking. It`s a really scary thing to hear.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What were some of the things that he did to you?

PRATZ (PH): He would send me Facebook messages. He`d call me. He`d hitchhike to Orlando. He didn`t live in Orlando. And he would hang out in places he thought I would be. He would send messages to my boyfriend and tell them that I was the one he was supposed to be with. He would make YouTube videos. It was -- it was tiresome and really scary.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s very similar to what Jodi did. She allegedly sent an e-mail to Travis`s new girlfriend, basically in weirdly religious language, saying, "Ye have sinned," if -- words to the effect of "if you lay with him, you have sinned." Kooky stuff, crazy stuff.

More on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think the hardest thing for me is just how much of an effect he had on not only myself, but everyone that came in contact with him. You know, like you said, it`s something that was so hard for me that, four plus years later, I`m still crying about it. You know, it`s not something I like to think about. It`s not something I like to talk about. And...




JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, OVERSEEING TRIAL: There is probable cause to believe that this offense was especially cruel, under the theory that it did involve both physical and mental suffering of the victim. So the motion for a mistrial is denied. The motion for a new finding of probable cause in the aggravators is denied.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Faced with overwhelming forensic evidence from the autopsy that is just shocking the jury, the defense decides to counteract with a wild card, calling for a mistrial, saying, "Wow, the medical examiner told one story about the order in which Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander, and the lead detective tells a totally different order. So the medical examiner says he was shot at the end, and the detective said he was shot first. Well, they can`t get their stories straight. That`s huge. Let`s call for a mistrial."

The judge said, "Nah, not so huge. We`re going to continue with the trial." That happened just moments ago.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Lisa, Ontario, your question or thought. Lisa, Ontario.

CALLER: Well, hi, Jane. Can I please ask, if this woman Jodi was so in love with Travis, No. 1, why did she till him? And then No. 2, after she did so, why did she go to another guy`s house and fool around with him?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, excellent question. Listen to an e-mail read in court. Now, this is allegedly from Travis about Jodi, in which he refers to Jodi`s sexual talents but also refers to her in terms that are not flattering, to say the least.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember seeing e-mails in which Mr. Alexander referred to Ms. Arias as a, quote, "(EXPLETIVE DELETED) wonder"?








VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michelle Ward, again, you were a victim of stalking, and you`re a psychologist. Could this whole bloody case boil down to a woman who didn`t like Travis`s attitude toward her and grew to feel a murderous rage against her supposedly secret lover? Could it be that simple?

WARD: Yes. She`s a mixed bag of a lot of different psychopathologies. I mean, she fits the exact profile of a love-obsessed stalker. I mean, she`s absolutely that.

But once she kills him, she does not behave in a way that a scorned lover, you know, who was fighting for her life and just lost it one day, would behave. She behaves like a psychopath. I mean, she has -- devoid of no emotion, no guilt, no remorse. She`s not a typical person, and it`s not love that she ever felt for this poor victim. She`s a whole different beast.

And unfortunately, you know, we come across them -- the girl that you have on your show, Kristen, she had a horrible stalker. And in fact, I`ve seen all of the videos. He`s worse than she even described him. He`s one of the scariest people I`ve ever read about and looked into. These people are nuts...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kristen Pratz (ph)...

WARD: ... and they are dangerous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kristen Pratz (ph), stalking victim out of Orlando and victim advocate, when you hear these things that Jodi Arias has done and said, does it give you chills, like, "Oh, my gosh, that could have been me"?

PRATZ (ph): Oh, yes. It`s a lot different. For someone who`s just in love with someone and then someone who`s violently obsessed with someone, to -- to watch and to hear what Jodi has done. It`s really terrifying to think that that probably could have happened to me, and it`s something that I have to think about every day.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m so glad it didn`t happen to you. And that`s part of the importance of listening and watching this case, is that we learned from this horror so that we can avoid similar outcomes and protect ourselves is somebody is obsessed with you, you think they`re becoming obsessed with you, if you think you`re getting stalked, you can take action to protect yourself and have nothing to do with the person. Never interact with them, not for any reason whatsoever.

More on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anyone that could kill anybody, then not be physically ill, let alone how brutal it was, to then turn around and you don`t have some kind of romantic event within hours, basically barbarically, brutally killing someone you professed your love to, it`s beyond me.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think most people that know her can see through this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had two small bandages, it seems like, on one of her fingers -- a couple of fingers.

She told me that she worked at Margaritaville and she had cut her finger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a business establishment, a bar or restaurant by the name of Margaritaville?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a day in court, the defense asked for a mistrial but they don`t get it. They said well, the medical examiner tells one story about the order in which Travis Alexander is killed and the lead detective says that well, it happened a different way and therefore they don`t know what their stories are and let`s throw out the case and the judge said no to that.

Meanwhile in court today, the prosecution, they basically took us through Jodi Arias` bizarre journey, her "mission to murder" as the prosecutors would say, from California, it started just before Travis is killed obviously. Receipts show Jodi rents a car from Redding, California June 2, 2008. She drives through various parts of the state on that day and the next day. And she gets to Arizona on June 4, kills Travis Alexander.

Then she takes off. By June 6, receipts show that she`s gone into Nevada and then she ends up in Utah where she makes outs with a friend of Travis Alexander, somebody who wasn`t a close friend but who knew him and worked with him. And by June 7, she returns her car back to Redding, California.

Wow, that`s what I call a murderous road trip, at least according to the prosecution. Shanna Hogan, author of "Picture Perfect", you are writing a book about this case. To me, that is evidence of premeditation, they believe she took the gun from her house. She drives quite a distance in order to rent a car. And then she goes on this crazy trip where she kills Travis and then ends up making out with his friend in another state.

SHANNA HOGAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It`s absolutely premeditated and evidence of a premeditated murder. But it actually goes even further than what was presented in court today that the car that she rented in Redding, they originally tried to give her a red car and she returned it and said it smelled like smoke. She didn`t want something too flashy. She ended up getting like a white, more modest car that she ended up turning the license plate upside down when she was in Travis` neighborhood.

Also her phone was turned off for a 24-hour period of time that day that he went missing and murdered that he`s presumed dead. Her phone was turned off. She stopped making purchases on her debit card. She was clearly trying to hide her trail and that type of stuff is going to come in court as we go forward.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the guy she was supposed to visit a couple of days earlier, she says the reason I`m late is that I got lost, I lost my charger, I was tired and I slept. He bought it until he found out that Travis Alexander was killed. And then he remembers oh yes she had cuts on her fingers.

Travis` friends find it disgusting that Jodi Arias killed their friends. She admits she killed him, she just says it`s self-defense and then drives to Utah and makes out with this new love interest Ryan Burns. And he testified that she was the aggressive one. She kind of jumped on him. Listen to this.

RYAN BURNS, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: From the second we woke up, we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what else happened?

BURNS: She got on top of me, pretty aggressively and we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she got on top of you very aggressively, where was her genital area compare with yours?

BURNS: She was right on top of me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anyone that could kill anybody then not be physically ill, let alone how brutal it was to then turn around and go have some type of romantic event within hours of basically, barbarically, brutally killing someone you profess your love to -- we told Travis, you can do so much better than this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jordan Rose, isn`t that game, set, match. You kill somebody, you say it`s self-defense, but you go and have -- basically make out -- not full-on sex -- but make out and fool around with another guy the next day?

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: This was the best witness for the defense (SIC) -- meaning here we have her at best being a liar, at worst cold blooded killer showing virgin turned vixen right there in the courtroom because we can all imagine if somehow you end up killing someone in self- defense, with all of the trauma ma, the mental trauma that that may cause, you still cannot imagine, a couple of hours later, driving to another state and making out with some stranger. That`s crazy.

So, I think that particular witness was credibly effective in his testimony and the state is just lucky to have found the guy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a very good witness for the prosecution -- I think that`s what you meant to say.

Jon Leiberman, again, jump in.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Not to mention that the prosecution also showed today that Jodi Arias tried to clean up the crime scene and in fact she tried to use water to wipe the blood off of many of the different spots in the house where they found blood. That is so telling as well.

And another thing, Jane, after she meets this other new love interest we now know, she also went to the memorial service for Travis and on her MySpace page, she created a whole photo album quote, "In loving memory of Travis". All of that is coming out now as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Eric Schwartzreich, you`re a criminal defense attorney. Do you see any chance whatsoever that she could successfully use the self-defense argument. Yes or no because if it`s no we don`t need to go any further.

ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She has a very difficult hurdle Jane but yes, absolutely. It is a 12-round fight as you said or alluded to. The trial is never over. She`s going to have to take the stand. In a criminal case criminal defendants do not have to go on the stand to testify, it`s the Fifth Amendment. But if you`re asserting affirmative defense, if you`re asserting self-defense, you`ve got to look those jurors in the eyes and you have tell them why this happened and what you did. What you did and why you did it. The problem for Arias, big problem, is she spun all these tales. Defendants shouldn`t be speaking -- loose lips, they sink ships. In criminal cases they say the whole navy -- the defense is sunk.

And I know it sounds funny.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s not just speaking, she`s singing. She`s singing. She`s giving interviews. That`s why she can`t take the stand. Listen, everybody says she`s going to take the stand.

Jon Leiberman, I don`t believe she is going to take the stand because they would cross-examine her about all her lies.

SCHWARTZREICH: Jane, she has to. She has to.

LEIBERMAN: I believe more than anything in this world, she wants to take the stand.


LEIBERMAN: This woman, if you look at her pattern of behavior, she truly believes that she can lie her way through anything and people will believe her lies so. So I agree that in order to show self-defense, she will have to testify because she needs to make that emotional plea to one juror that she can be believed. But she will get ripped apart on cross- examination --


LEIBERMAN: -- and I`ll bet her attorneys are telling her, do not testify.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s why I don`t expect her to take the stand. Just like everybody said Casey Anthony is going to take the stand because she`s a narcissist and she loves to see her name in the papers and on television. She didn`t take the stand. I don`t think Jodi Arias is going to take the stand either but we`ll see. Maybe she will. She`s very hard to predict.

On the other side of the break, we`re going to introduce you to a woman who was involved in one of the most -- she`s a victim of the most high profile longest-running stalking case in U.S. history. Stay right there.


BURNS: From the second we woke up we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what else happened?

BURNS: She got on top of me, pretty aggressively and we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she got on top of you pretty aggressively, where was her genital area compared to yours?

BURNS: She was right on top of me.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tomorrow on this show, an exclusive guest. I will talk to Travis Alexander`s mentor, a man who has been described as a father figure to Travis Alexander. We`re going to get insights into this victim. Don`t miss it tomorrow, 7:00 p.m. And of course, much more on the Jodi Arias trial tomorrow and in just a minute; we`ve got some more for you.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It says, "Hey there, handsome. This is a test."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her saying to you, "Hey hottie-biscotti, what`s new?"


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she`s a real flirt this one. And those are some of the e-mails she sent not to Travis Alexander -- to another guy. A guy she ended up fooling around with the day after -- maybe even less than a day after -- she killed Travis Alexander.

Quickly to the phone calls -- before we get to our next guest, an extraordinary guest.

Christine, North Carolina, your question or thought?

CHRISTINE, NORTH CAROLINA (via telephone): Yes, Jane, like I always tell you I love you, Rico and God bless your mother.


CHRISTINE: I`m learning more and more because I`m into this trial Jane. So I`ll probably be calling you a few more times.


CHRISTINE: I noticed today when the forensic lady got up talking about all the blood. There was a lot of blood that was very low to the ground and if it was that low to the ground, then he had to be on the ground.


CHRISTINE: There was no way that he was attacking her, none, because the blood would not have been that low.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect" that`s a very, very good observation by Christine in North Carolina.

HOGAN: Not only were the blood droplets really low and there were signs that the knife was plunged maybe and that there`s blood droplets flicked at like six inches above the wall, there`s also drag marks that are on the base boards that kind of show that maybe his body was dragged through that entire bathroom hallway. And that left a void in the blood path. So there`s definitely signs that he was attacked and at least some of the wounds were delivered very low in the bathroom. So that was a very good point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to our next guest Sherry Meinberg, who is an advocate for stalking and she is the survivor of one of the most infamous, perhaps the most infamous stalking case in U.S. history. I understand, Sherry, first of all thank you for joining us and having the courage to speak out because this is something that happens to so many women and as we see in this tragic case to men too.

This victim, Travis Alexander who was allegedly stalked by Jodi, was stabbed 29 times. Your story, you were stalked by your ex-husband -- correct me if I`m wrong -- and in the course of trying to get to you, he then, instead abducts another woman, a random stranger and stabs her how many times?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: 27 times. Tell me.

MEINBERG: Not only that, he had grabbed her off of a corner, took her home, beat her up, took a beer bottle, cracked it in half, gouged out her stomach, then he rapes her and then he stabbed her 27 times. So I`m very happy that he couldn`t find me at that point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So he was looking for you, couldn`t find you and he just says, we`ll, this person is available, I`m going to grab this victim that I don`t even know and attack them.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you see commonalities given that Travis Alexander was stabbed 29 times -- at first we thought it was 27 and the victim that could have been you but wasn`t, thank God, you`re here, was stabbed 27 times. Do you see that and other commonalities between these two cases?

MEINBERG: Yes, that was my first thought and also, they believed so strongly that they can have everybody believe their stories and they have told stories and told lies for so many years that people have believed that I think this is one of her problems. She keeps changing her story but everybody is aware now that she`s told too many and they`re not believing her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It must give you a chill when you see this case play out. I could imagine it must send a chill down your spine to thing "Oh, my god, it`s happened again."

MEINBERG: Yes. I was reading some of the articles about your show and what`s going on, and my stomach started shaking so it was just like I was back with Chuck. So there are a lot of similarities.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m glad that you`re here, you`re ok, and take a deep breath and it`s going to be all right, you are safe.

MEINBERG: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side of the break, is there a connection between pathological lying and violence? Some might think so.


ARIAS: I wouldn`t use obsession. Travis was a wonderful person, but he was also very persuasive and he was hard to say no to. He wouldn`t allow me to not answer his text message. If I didn`t respond, he would keep calling and calling until I did.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: This case is proving one thing at least overwhelmingly beyond a reasonable doubt. This woman is definitely a pathological liar. Just as Casey Anthony was a pathological liar but, you know, one of the jurors said the Casey Anthony case said that you didn`t charge her so much with lying as you charged her with murder. Is lying sort of a distraction?



BURNS: She had two small bandages it seems like on one of her fingers, a couple of her fingers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did she tell you about those cuts?

BURNS: She worked at Margaritaville, and I guess she broke a glass.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a business establishment, a bar, a restaurant by the name of Margaritaville?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So there is no restaurant by the name of Margaritaville?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Check one more lie by Jodi Arias. Shades of Casey Anthony who lied, of course, about where she worked, Universal Studios. She didn`t. The list goes on and on.

Scott Peterson who killed his pregnant wife he lied like a master. Even called his mistress pretending to be in Paris, France, at the Eiffel Tower when he was at a vigil for his supposedly missing wife, the one he killed.

Darren Kavinoky, host of "Deadly Sins", which premieres on Investigation Discovery Saturday night at 9:00, is there a connection between liars and violence?

DARREN KAVINOKY, HOST, "DEADLY SINS": Well, first Jane, just to clarify, it`s the premiere of Season 2 this Saturday night on Investigation Discovery.


KAVINOKY: Thank you. As far as this connection with lying, the prosecution, of course, is going to try and use every single one of those lies to demonstrate consciousness of guilt. It`s just like fleeing the scene, anything that you might do after the fact that to throw investigators off the trail, they`re going to argue that that is consciousness of guilt.

But just wait for the spoiler alert that when we get into the defense case, they`re going to need to put the victim on trial, and they`re going to have to put on somebody that can try and explain away these lies as being the manifestation of some kind of a battered person syndrome. That somehow Travis was such a bad guy that he had her under this mind control and that has to be the reason to explain not only her lies but obviously this whole self-defense path that now the defense is committed to taking.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Selin Darkalstanian, senior producer on the scene in Arizona, the prosecution better make sure they don`t make the mistake that the Casey Anthony prosecution did of really focusing so much on her lies that basically, yes, she was convicted of lying. That`s a problem.

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Yes, I mean they`re playing her phone conversations in court. And she`s -- you can hear her and she`s believing her lies like she`s actually saying it and she believes it. And the prosecutor is not even asking her another question and she`s delivering another lie and another lie. It`s almost like she`s really into it. She`s believing her story as it`s happening.

Yes, the prosecution needs to bring it right back to the photos, the bloody photos, the facts in the case. And I think they are doing that. They`re weaving in her lies as they`re showing you the evidence of the case. They`re weaving into her lies.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michelle Ward, is there a connection between pathological liars and a propensity to violence?

MICHELLE WARD, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you mentioned Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony and now Jodi Arias. They`re all psychopaths. Come on. I mean that`s what they are. Not all psychopaths kill people, these psychopaths did. You`re just seeing the lying behavior, which is one of the hallmarks of psychopathy. You also have the lack of guilt, no remorse. They have no conscience. That`s what we`re seeing here.

Yes, liars aren`t necessarily murders but psychopaths are always liars.


More on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was certainly displaying evidence of borderline personality disorder, wildly emotionally unstable, inability to maintain this relationship and she tied a lot of her identity up to Travis. I mean she became a Mormon to try to be somebody he could marry and she was really controlling. I mean, from what I`ve read, she was trying to control all aspects of his life.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My examination did show that the jugular vein and the carotid artery on the right side were both cut.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How deep is this wound?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It goes all the way back to the spine. So it`s three inches, four inches.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, this case has already gotten a little crazy; the defense asking for a mistrial today saying, oh, the medical examiner and the lead detective can`t get their stories straight. It was denied, but you`ve got to wonder and I`m going to bring in my three expert panelists here to debate this.

If this is going to be a Casey Anthony where the prosecution focuses so much on Jodi Alexander`s lies that the jury is left with the impression, wow, she`s a pathological liar but I can`t necessarily say for sure she didn`t kill him in self-defense, that she`s a murderess. Starting with Eric.

SCHWARTZREICH: Jane, she`s beautiful, she`s smart, she`s attractive. She doesn`t look like that dark, deep, dangerous place like a murderer. It`s a good thing for the defense.

The problem is that she is spinning so many tales and the courtroom and her wardrobe changes, I mean she`s had more wardrobe changes than Vanna White. The courtroom is supposed to be staged -- it`s supposed to be staged but this looks staged. The bottom line is, are they going to believe because she`s lying and we saw Casey Anthony get the acquittal, does that mean that she`s a murderer.



SCHWARTZREICH: Does that mean the death penalty should apply here? I don`t think she gets the death penalty in this case.


LEIBERMAN: Completely different case than Casey Anthony. This case has so much physical evidence, the Anthony case did not. This you have the defendant on tape lying. It`s actually documented.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re going to having to see. I remember, you know, watching that Casey Anthony case. And say focus not on the lies but on the killing.

Tomorrow, an exclusive guest, Travis Alexander`s mentor. Join us.