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What Tactics Will Jodi Arias`s Defense Use?

Aired January 21, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Will Jodi Arias walk free after arguing she killed her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander, in self-defense? Can a defense attorney repeat anything their client claims, even if that client is a pathological liar and known to be a liar?

Tonight, the secret that could get Jodi Arias off.


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, life or death for Jodi Arias? Now it`s her side`s turn to try to prove she stabbed and shot her ex-, Travis Alexander, to death in self-defense. Can she use the abuse excuse without taking the stand? Will her defense team drop a bomb on day one?

And ever since the O.J. trial, have criminal defense attorneys felt free to play fast and loose, leaving prosecutors at a disadvantage?

Plus, a stunning slew of similarities between Jodi Arias and Casey Anthony.

Plus, we`re taking your calls.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is telling me that you did this to him.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine-one-one emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom.

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: So I`m as good as done?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.

ARIAS: Pigtails?

If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When people lie, there`s an effort to throw a little truth in there to make the lie more believable.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, it`s life or death inside the Jodi Arias courtroom as the defense gears up to defend the woman cops call a cold- blooded killer. Will Jodi`s team be able to convince the jury she killed her ex-boyfriend in self-defense?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.

The beautiful 32-year-old photographer admits she stabbed her ex- boyfriend 29 times, slitting Travis Alexander`s throat from ear to ear and shooting him in the face. But she claims it was all in self-defense.

Still, after the jury saw pictures of the very bloody crime scene, like this one, or pictures from Travis`s autopsy, like this one, will they believe self-defense?

Jodi`s defense team claims Travis emotionally abused and sexually degraded Jodi. Listening to the explosive defense claims made in opening statements. We warn you: it`s graphic, but it was said in open court.


JENNIFER WILLMOTT, ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: As Travis would explain to Jodi, oral sex really isn`t as much of a sin for him as vaginal sex. And so he was able to convince her to give him oral sex. And later in their relationship, Travis would tell her that anal sex really isn`t much of a sin compared to vaginal sex. And so he was able to persuade her to allow him to have anal sex with her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then the jury got an eyeful when the prosecution showed triple-X-rated photos like this one, presumably shot by the victim, Travis, of Jodi wearing pigtails in a possible sexual role-playing thing and laying seductively on Travis`s bed. And they also saw this photo of Jodi, shot from knees up. And these are just some of the tamer photos to give you an idea.

So will Jodi have to take the stand if she hopes to use these photos somehow to prove, oh, she was abused and degraded, and she did this in self-defense? Will a jury believe her after listening to her litany of lies?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The camera actually took a couple photos by accident during the time he was being killed.

ARIAS: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Jodi, really. You were there. Quit playing this game. It`s time for you to just come out and tell me.

ARIAS: I did not -- I did not hurt Travis.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, you did.

I want to hear from you. Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. What are your questions for our experts?

Who on earth would want to testify on behalf of this pathological liar? And is there any way she can prove self-defense without taking the stand herself?

Straight out to our expert panel to debate it all. We begin our faceoff with criminal defense attorney Gina Longarzo. Gina, does Jodi have a snowball`s chance in hell of proving self-defense?

GINA LONGARZO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Jane. I believe that she does have all the elements needed to prove that she was a battered woman and that she was not premeditating a murder. She did not know what she was doing. She was pathological, but she`s not a liar. She doesn`t know what she said.

And she went there, like a battered woman, because she was tragically still in love with this man. But she knew there was a chance that something could go awry, and it did. And she dropped the camera, and she just snapped. And I think she does have a valid defense.

And the state has to convince 12 jurors beyond a reasonable doubt to convict this woman that -- decide that she should get the death penalty. I don`t know that they`re going to be able to do that, because they already lied, in my opinion, and said he`s a good, wholesome guy. He`s a Mormon who`s calling her the three-holed wonder and telling her to have anal sex. So I think there`s a chance.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You made your case. Jon Lieberman?

JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: I`m in disbelief. I mean, first of all, the victim is not on trial here. Travis Alexander is not on trial, as much as the defense will want to paint that.

But there`s so much evidence in this case, not to mention evidence of premeditation. The dying of her hair, going 90 miles away to rent the car. The gun is stolen from her house, reported missing. She brings a gun and a knife to Travis`s house.

And look at the blog entries, and everything. There`s absolutely no evidence that she was a battered woman, that she had ever been abused. And I just don`t think there`s a snowball`s chance in hell that this self- defense is going to stand up.


LIEBERMAN: Plus in order to show self-defense, she`s going to have to take the stand...


LIEBERMAN: ... and explain to this jury that she felt in danger.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s see about that. Darren Kavinoky, host of "Deadly Sins" on Investigation Discovery.

DARREN KAVINOKY, HOST, INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY`S "DEADLY SINS": Well, I think the snowball may have a better chance than Jodi Arias in this case. At least on the first phase, which is the guilt or proven or not proven phase, before we even get to all this death penalty stuff.

The prosecution`s case is elegant in its simplicity. It`s very straightforward: she stalked him. This was premeditated and planned. She put him in an especially vulnerable position in terms of the shower. She lied to cover it up, consciousness of guilt. All of that really works in the prosecution`s favor.

Then we get to this issue, assuming they come back and convict. Then we get to the issue about whether or not she deserved the death penalty. And I`ll point out that, generally speaking, being a Caucasian attractive female seems to work in your favor in death penalty cases, with one notable exception, Arizona. All the women on Death Row in Arizona, Caucasian females.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say a couple things. One, you`re all making excellent arguments, but this idea that, oh, the prosecution`s proved she`s a stalker, actually, some of the worst stalking evidence never got in, because the prosecution itself decided it would be too prejudicial and could form the basis of an appeal, if she was convicted.

We`ve got to remember to distinguish what we are hearing and what the jury is hearing.

Now, the defense has already laid some important groundwork to try to prove that, in their claims, Travis degraded Jodi. Remember this from the defense attorney`s opening statement.


WILLMOTT: She knew that the one thing that calmed his temper the quickest is sex. So as she`s telling him "It`s OK. I`ll fix it. Don`t worry," Travis grabbed her and spun her around. Afraid that he was going to hurt her, Jodi was actually relieved when all he did was bend her over the desk.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Marla Chicotsky, you are a former prosecutor. Here`s what -- I don`t -- it just drives me mad. Nobody knows what happens behind closed doors. All these naked photos prove that, for sure.

Can the defense simply repeat any claim that Jodi, a known pathological liar, makes? As long as those claims refer to something that happened behind closed doors, given that the only person who could prove her a liar is dead and can`t defend himself.

MARLA CHICOTSKY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, Jodi has a really big problem in this case. She`s given multiple statements to law enforcement, which have been shown to not be credible. She`s going to have to take the stand in the case.

And the prosecution is going to be able to admit, which they did in their case in chief, all those statements that show that you cannot believe, if you`re the jury on this case, that what she`s telling you is the truth. It`s lie after lie after lie.

And yes, what happened is behind closed doors, but there is no physical evidence or anything of a struggle on Jodi. There`s furthermore no circumstantial evidence or direct evidence in this case that she was being physically abused or emotionally abused by Travis in this case.


CHICOTSKY: So I think the main problem the defense has is that she is a known liar in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And there is no 911 call, her complaining about Travis beating her. There`s nothing like that.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Sharon, New York. Your question or thoughts -- Sharon.

CALLER: Hi, Jane. I definitely think it was premeditated. However, why didn`t she die her hair back to blond after -- before she saw someone that she knew?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re right. Jean Casarez, "In Session" correspondent, you`re out there in Phoenix, and you`ve been covering this. She -- she`s watched one too many TV movies. She sort of does stuff that people do on television, like dye their hair.

But she really doesn`t die it back to where it was, the original color before seeing other people. Therefore, it doesn`t really work, does it?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": First, no it doesn`t. First of all, I think her original color is brown. And she -- maybe she didn`t have the time to change it back, because you know, it was about a month before she was arrested and she was a suspect. She gave her DNA. She -- they were scrutinizing her, and maybe she believed that it`s just best for her to leave it the way she was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Jean, let me ask you this: who on earth is going to want to testify in defense of this woman? If she doesn`t take the stand, what kind of case? Do they have a witness list? Who are they going to call?

CASAREZ: You know, Jane, they`ve really got some witnesses for the defense. I`ve been researching one. They`ve got a domestic violence expert. Her name is Alyce LaViolette. And she is one of the leading domestic violence experts, at least on the West Coast. She`s out of Southern California.

She has developed anger management courses -- that`s a key word right there, I think anger. That tells where the defense is going to go. She has developed programs for men who abused their intimate partners. In 1979 she formulated a course that has really gone nationwide: "Alternatives to Violence."

You know, we heard in the opening statements about he got so angry -- angry -- and they`d say this several times. I think they`re going to put her on to talk about what anger does to the victim who receives that anger.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but basically, it`s still her claiming it and nobody else. Nobody corroborating his temper, except an expert who`s been paid by the defense. Just how far...

CASAREZ: You know, Jane...


CASAREZ: Maybe they`re using it as a mitigator and not actually as a complete defense for an acquittal. Maybe they`re using it so somebody out there will have a little empathy for her, jury nullification, so they won`t convict on first degree.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s possible. Just how far will the defense go in this case?

Do you remember the O.J. Simpson trial? "If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit"? Will Jodi try to use the abuse excuse?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man. She knocked the blessings out of him by putting a bullet in his head.




ARIAS: What`s my motive?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jealousy, anger, fear, fear of being alone, angry at him for not keeping you in his life. I don`t know. That`s why I`m trying to figure it out. There`s so many motives with you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jealousy, rage, Jodi`s past is a big mystery. How did she get to that place? Travis`s friends who knew Jodi said she never spoke about her past. Jodi did a "48 Hours" interview where she described her childhood in the most classic generic terms. Listen to this.


ARIAS: My childhood was almost ideal. I have a big family; we`re all very close.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. So ideal that you`re now accused of murder.

She went to Yreka High School. We know that. That was in her hometown, near the Oregon border. She dropped out in 11th grade. Prior to Travis, she dated a respectable man who had a good job as a hospitality consultant, and he had a child, for four years. They actually bought a house together.

We know that her last job was as a waitress. She quit just a couple of days before killing Travis. She aspired to be a photographer.

Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect," you are writing a book on this case. Why is her life such a mystery? Fill in some of the other pieces? Where did he come from? What is her story?

SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST/AUTHOR (via phone): Well, I think one of the reasons why her life is such a mystery and why she doesn`t have a lot of people coming forward supporting her is because she was a relationship hopper. She went from one relationship to the next, and that was her entire focus.

You know, when she was with Travis, she gave up her entire life. She moved to Mesa, made all new friends. And everything was about Travis and being part of his life. So that`s one of the reasons that she doesn`t have a lot of friends.

The other reason she`s kind of mysterious about her background, I think that she probably had a pretty traumatic childhood, the opposite of what she described. Like the parents, I know that there`s some animosity there. That`s why she didn`t move back with her parents when she moved back to Yreka but she actually moved in with her grandparents. We know that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Gina Longarzo, you wanted to jump in.

LONGARZO: Yes, I do, because I have a problem with the way this debate is going, because we`re all forgetting that the defendant has not presented any evidence yet. You`re only looking at the state`s case at this point.

So everything you`re saying -- she`s a liar, she changed her story -- we have not heard from the defense as of yet. We`ve only heard the state`s witnesses.

And I`m sorry, but nobody is that good of a liar. Nobody is that good of an actress. I really think she was a true battered woman. And...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Marla. Marla, you wanted to respond.

CHICOTSKY: Yes, I think we have heard from this defendant. She`s given multiple statements. We know exactly what she`s said to law enforcement. We know -- at one point she said she didn`t do it. The second time, she said that she wasn`t there at all. And then now we have her actually confessing to the murder.

So it`s not about whether she`s battered or not. It`s whether she can prove in her affirmative defense that she was in fear of her life or that she was going to be injured by her -- or by Travis in this case. And that evidence is just not there yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Darren.

KAVINOKY: Jane -- Jane, look, it`s true that we`ve not heard from the defense, and jurors are often told that, if they have to vote at the end of the prosecution`s case before hearing from the defense, how would you vote. And if anybody says anything other than not guilty, then that`s a great opportunity to teach them about the presumption of innocence. Everybody gets that.

The problem in this particular case is that there have been so many conflicting stories that have come out of Jodi Arias`s own mouth that she`s already going into her case with the presumption of being a liar.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s a story like Casey Anthony, and she was found not guilty of murder and guilty of lying.

LIEBERMAN: This is totally different.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Robi Ludwig -- hold on a second -- psychotherapist, I find it fascinating that we don`t know anything about her past. What is that a signal of?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. Well, she doesn`t want us to know about her past. Probably because it might present her in a way that she doesn`t really like. If she reveals that she was abused, she knows that she would come off in a particular way.

This is a woman who is escaping her family, who`s trying to connect and recreate her life each and every time she finds a new relationship. The fact that she`s doing that speaks to a character pathology.

And I just want to say, listen, if I were her defense attorney, I would go with battered wife syndrome, absolutely, even though she`s not a wife, because look at what she did, and that`s the way some women do overreact when they are abused.

Having said that, if you have a borderline personality disorder, you could feel abused, even though there wasn`t actual abuse going on, because you`re sensitive to being abandoned and feeling like you`re not being treated properly. And that can contribute to revenge.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. In other words, anybody can feel abused. "Oh, you look at me the wrong way. I feel abused right now. Therefore, I`m going to kill you." It`s a crazy, mixed-up world that somebody can use that as a justification for killing somebody, slicing -- practically decapitating them.

On the other side, more of your calls, and we`re diving deeper into this case.


ARIAS: I would never stab him. If -- if I had it in me anywhere to kill him, the least I could have done was make it as humane as possible. Quick or something, you know?




ARIAS: We were together a lot. He got a lot of grief from his friends about the amount of time we spent together.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They didn`t like you?

ARIAS: I don`t think it was so much that. I think they were concerned with his future prospects for marriage.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right now Jodi Arias`s defense team is probably huddling, trying to figure out how to present their case, and they may not have decided yet whether Jodi Arias should take the stand or not. A lot of times, that decision is made at the 11th hour, because they want to try to use other possibilities.

Let`s go out to the phone lines. Linda in California, your question or thought. Linda, California.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi, how you doing?

CALLER: Can you hear me?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Your question or thought, Linda.

CALLER: Hey, Jan. San Diego thinks you rock. We love you in San Diego.


CALLER: Hey, there`s a picture of Jodi and Travis that the TV stations keep showing. And it really haunts me. It`s the picture of where they`re under a waterfall, and she has her hands around his throat. And to me, it looks like she wants to strangle him. Could that be a sign of premeditation?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I know the photo you`re talking about. And we`re scrolling through our photos. It`s coming up in a second. I think that`s absolutely fascinating.

There`s been a lot of foreshadowing, Dr. Robi Ludwig, in this case. They were reading the book, "A Thousand Places to Visit Before You Die." There were many others. He had predicted his own death, told friends, "I think she could kill me."

And something as subtle as putting her hands around his throat in a happy, so-called happy picture -- it`s coming up -- but what would it mean?

LUDWIG: Well, I think it shows that there`s aggression there. I would guess he`d something or did something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right there. There it is. Look at that!

LUDWIG: But it also shows how she`s really -- she`s so in his space, you know. She`s holding onto him for dear life. And I show -- I think it shows her inability to not be with him. She needed to be with him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Selin Darkalstanian, our producer who has been covering this case from the start, you`ve been talking to sources. And it`s -- you`ve learned something fascinating about her relationships, gender-wise.

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: It seems like a lot of people who we talked to have all told us that she didn`t have many girlfriends. And all her friends were either guy friends or boyfriends that she was either dating or in a relationship with. So we`re having trouble coming across any females or girlfriends in the past that will come up and speak up for her.

But everybody we reached out to says that she didn`t like a lot of girls. She always thought that she was pretty. She thought when she was around girls, the girls were jealous of her. And so that`s why she surrounded herself with guys.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to go back. There`s another boyfriend. There`s no -- there`s no commonality to these boyfriends. They`re sort of all over the map. Except that they`re guys.

LUDWIG: Yes. That might be enough, but she probably idealized them. She probably thought they had something to offer. A serious relationship. They would...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They were her ticket out of Yreka. Let me say it. Let me boil it down to the basic terms.

She thought her guys, whatever guys she could get, were her ticket out of this town, out of this little town, Yreka, that`s close to the Oregon border. I don`t want to say anything negative about Yreka. I`ve never been there. But it`s a very small town. And this is a woman with very big ambitions and a grandiose narcissist who probably thinks she should be treated like a princess and be wealthy and have her own reality show.

Unfortunately, she does sort of have her own reality show now, and it`s a tragedy, because somebody is dead. This is not a happy story. This is a very, very sad story of where narcissism, malignant narcissism, and an aggressive desire to possess others will take you.

Chilling parallels between Jodi Arias and Casey Anthony. In just a minute, we`re going to look a closer look at the many, many creepy similarities between these two women.

Top of the hour, Nancy Grace goes inside the Arias police interrogation tapes. That`s at top of the hour, at 8 on HLN. Right here.


WILLMOTT: Jodi was Travis`s dirty little secret.

It is just one minute, just one minute of time between the camera falling until you see the picture of Travis with blood. One minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man.






UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who has her? Do you have a name?

CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED FOR DEATH OF DAUGHTER: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzales.

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I just wanted to offer any assistance (inaudible). I was a really good friend of Travis.

ANTHONY: I still have that feeling, that presence, I know that she`s alive.

ESTEBAN FLORES, POLICE DETECTIVE: Jodi this is over. This is absolutely over. You need to tell me the truth.

ARIAS: Listen, the truth is I did not hurt Travis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For years, she pretended she had a job and pretended she had a nanny.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi did not always tell the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m very confident, just after talking to you a short period of time, you know where she is.

ANTHONY: I don`t.


ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is.


ANTHONY: If I knew in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: If the Jodi Arias case has a weird, familiar ring to it, chances are you watched the Casey Anthony trial. We covered it in-depth right here on the show.

Tonight, a look at the stunning, even creepy similarities between these two women and these two cases. First of all, both cases involve horrific deaths that occurred in June of 2008. And both women, get this, were arrested within a day of each other. Casey was taken in on July 15th, right after her mom Cindy called 911.


CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.


CINDY ANTHONY: Get someone here now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ok, what is the address that you`re calling from?

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a three-year-old little girl. My daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her. I need to find her.

There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: At the very moment that Cindy was hysterically realizing her precious granddaughter Caylee was missing in Orlando, Florida, across the country in Yreka, California, cops were grilling -- yes, you guessed it -- Jodi Arias about her role in Travis Alexander`s bloody death, getting ready to arrest her. Unbelievable.


FLORES: There`s pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.

ARIAS: Pigtails?

FLORES: Yes. I`ve got pictures of you that I`ve blown up and you have got the little mole right there. It`s the same one. It`s you, it`s obvious.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s just some of the creepy parallels between these two cases, but really it`s bizarre.

Jean Casarez, both women were in their 20s at the time of the crime. Stains were found in both cars the women were driving. Both lied about where they worked and cops say both stole from friends and family. And that`s just for starters, Jean.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": You know, It`s amazing, Jane. And I don`t think anybody has put together like you have that it happened in the same year and the same month and the culmination is the same because both women face the death penalty. One is now facing it right now. More or less, they were liars, they lived at home, they dropped out of high school. I mean -- many, many similarities.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. We really were astounded as we went through the list. We`re just getting started. Now, a former acquaintance of Casey Anthony`s think anger over Casey`s not guilty verdict will impact the Jodi Arias jury. Listen to his argument, it makes a lot of sense. .


NATHAN LEZNIEWICZ, KNEW CASEY ANTHONY: The only thing that Jodi has working against her at this point was the severe backlash from the public in general that Casey Anthony was not convicted. So the public has had an opportunity to view all that and these jurors were well aware of that case and they have to feel that. And you wonder if it they are still not outraged from the Casey Anthony trial. That could make its way into this particular trial.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The public, of course, furious when the jury failed to convict Casey. There were huge protests outside the courthouse. I was there that day -- so much rage. Some of the jurors actually had to go into hiding.

Let`s bring in our expert legal panel. Could these Jodi jurors want to convict Jodi to avoid a backlash or just to show, hey, we won`t be fooled again? And I`m going to start with Jon Leiberman on that.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first of all, there are a lot of significant differences in these cases. I mean Arias has admitted to the killing. That`s the one big thing. And now, I don`t think these jurors are going to be impacted by Casey Anthony at all.

There`s a lot more physical evidence in this case. As I mentioned, Arias has admitted to the killing. Just says -- now says it`s self- defense.

And I want to point out one other thing, Jane. The prosecutor in this case, Mr. Martinez, there are three other women -- right now there are three women on death row in Arizona. Mr. Martinez put one of them there and her defense was self-defense also.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gina, I heard you were raising your hand and you wanted to get in.

GINA MENDOLA LONGARZO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I did. First of all, if jurors consider something that has nothing to do with this trial, it`s a mistrial. They can`t think about anything but what is going on in this trial. In my experience, jurors care about getting it right. They look at everything. They consider everything. And they don`t like to give people the death penalty.

So that first issue of them thinking about the Casey Anthony case and applying it here, I think that`s preposterous and I think that that will not happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well they`ll -- go ahead.

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They are not supposed to. Well Jane, they are not supposed to, but they are human beings. And of course, Casey Anthony was not convicted in a court of law, but well tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. That has to be there on some level in a case like this.

Let`s not forget that in Casey Anthony, those jurors were sequestered. They had no opportunity to be influenced by anything going on in the media, any conversation outside of what happened in court. These jurors are not. Hopefully they are minding their oath.

LONGARZO: These jurors are asking a lot questions. They`re asking questions -- the right questions.

KAVINOKY: Yes, but hopefully these jurors -- hopefully these jurors are paying attention to the oath that they gave that they are not going to look receive any evidence other than what is given to them in the courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, they both -- we were showing a second ago a very good ability to actually cry on the drop of a dime. They are both wearing pastel, librarian-style shirts.

You were talking about the eerie similarities between Casey Anthony and Jodi Arias. Here`s another one. They both made up fictional -- not just lying but they actually both made up fictional -- elaborate fictional characters to explain why the people they loved ended up dead.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I have seen with my daughter, yes.

ARIAS: (inaudible) argued.

FLORES: About what?

ARIAS: About whether or not to kill me.

FLORES: For what reason?

ARIAS: Because I`m a witness.

FLORES: A witness of what?

ARIAS: Him. Travis.

FLORES: Of Travis`s murder?

ARIAS: Yes, but I didn`t really witness it. I didn`t see much.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Casey made up Zanny the nanny. And she also alleged that domestic abuse -- Casey said she was sexually abused by her father George beginning in childhood. Jodi, of course, talked about ninjas doing a home invasion, which now she admits was a big, phony story. She claims she was sexually degraded by Travis.

So, both lied multiple times in their police interrogations. Both, by the way, just here`s a weird thing -- both watched movies with a guy within the hour of the death of their supposed loved ones. And again, both lied about their jobs.

So I`ve got to go back to my central question of the night. Please, somebody, I`m begging you, answer it. Marla Chicotsky, you`re a former prosecutor. Are defense attorneys legally allowed to just go with any cockamamie story their client comes up with, especially when they know that client is a pathological liar? Or do they have an ethical and moral obligation to vet claims given that their client lies and lies and lies.

MARLA CHICOTSKY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, absolutely. A defense attorney has to keep their morals and ethics separate from when they`re defending their client. They can`t mix and mesh the two. I think in this case, they are being very specific about getting expert witnesses involved because they need someone to explain this pathological behavior.

Both Casey and Jodi were very manipulative women. They would steal. They would lie. They would use their sexuality to get what they wanted. And I think you can see it with the detectives that they are trying to continuously keep lying. I didn`t do it. I didn`t do it. I wasn`t involved. But that wasn`t working when there`s overwhelming evidence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I understand -- you answered a little bit. But Darren Kavinoky, can a defense attorney listen to somebody say, hey he beat the bleep out of me behind closed doors. And you know they made up the story about ninjas doing a home invasion. You know they are pathological liars. Do you, as a defense attorney, feel comfortable in taking that to a jury and with cameras in the courtroom to the world destroying somebody`s character in death or do you have to say honey, you`re a big fat liar, I want you to show me some proof before I take that claim before the jury or before -- in a courtroom.

KAVINOKY: The defense attorney`s comfort level is absolutely not part of the calculus that fits into this at all. So as long as there are some facts, some evidence that allow the defense attorney to make a particular argument, they are duty bound to make that argument in their client`s favor regardless of whether they think their client is a liar pants on 100 other points.

So the fact that she lied about ninjas and changed her stories, it doesn`t allow the defense attorneys to circumvent her defense that she was, in fact, a battered person and she did all this in self-defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. You have answered my question. Thank you so much.

On the other side of the break, we are going to talk about O.J. Simpson and how the O.J. Simpson case has had repercussions and reverberations that affect criminal trial like the Jodi Arias case today.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told that (inaudible) wasn`t dating her and he thought that she was following him around. That`s when she had been caught snooping around and peeking into his windows at his house. He had told my older brother, Gary on the phone that he thought it was her that was for sure slashing his tires and he really had a strong feeling that it was Jodi.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Up next we`re going to talk about the O.J. Simpson case and the impact that the O.J. Simpson defense has had on so many criminal trials after it and how it really changed the rules of the game. It`s really not a game -- we`re talking life and death. But the rules did change. That`s next.



ARIAS: The other night, a lot of people that have been speaking out and saying things on their side. And this isn`t a two-sided story. This is a multifaceted story. There are many sides to the story. And I just don`t feel like mine has been represented.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: As we gear up for Jodi Arias` defense, many wonder if her team is going to pull a fast one as it were. It seems defense lawyers have changed the rules of combat when it comes to high-profile murder defendants. And many say the big moment the rules changed was during the O.J. Simpson murder trial. Remember this?


JOHNNIE COCHRAN, O.J. SIMPSON`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: O.J. Simpson in a knit cap from two blocks away is still O.J. Simpson. It`s no disguise, it`s no disguise, it makes no sense, it doesn`t fit, if it doesn`t fit you must acquit.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit -- rhyming closing arguments by the late Johnnie Cochran, O.J. Simpson`s brilliant defense attorney, who obviously won the case. Cochran was talking about O.J. Simpson trying on the infamous glove in front of the jury. One bloody glove was found at the home where his ex-wife Nicole Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman were murdered. The other glove was found at O.J.`s nearby estate.

There was testimony that the gloves had shrunk due to moisture and the defense insisted O.J. first put on latex gloves and then before the jury tried the leather gloves on and the gloves did not fit. And it became the defining moment of the trial.

Another O.J. defense mantra -- garbage in, garbage out; if the forensics against you are overwhelming, attack the way police collect the evidence. It`s a trick that now every high profile defense attorney uses. Did O.J.`s trial and this whole new approach to lawyering set the stage for other monumental trial verdicts like the Casey Anthony acquittal?

I got to go to Darren Kavinoky, you`re there in L.A. I`m sure you remember the O.J. Simpson.

KAVINOKY: Oh, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It seems like the rules of the game really changed then and there.

KAVINOKY: Well, the O.J. Simpson case certainly put a highlight on things that lawyers were already doing. I don`t know there had been a case before that captured America`s attention, the world`s attention in the way that O.J. Simpson did. Although your point about the --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, you`re telling me that defense attorneys put on caps and rhyme during their closing arguments before O.J. Simpson? I have never seen a defense attorney wearing a cap.

KAVINOKY: It was certainly something that was broadcast around the world. You had a greater level of interest; a heightened level of coverage that the world had never seen before. But the techniques that were used in O.J. Simpson, which were essentially if the facts aren`t on your side, argue the law; if the law`s not on your side, argue the facts and to focus particularly on the weaknesses of the investigation. That`s been something that`s been in a good lawyer`s repertoire since time immemorial.

LONGARZO: Hey, listen, listen. I will do anything during a trial to get -- I will do anything during a trial to get the jury`s attention. I have done push-ups during trials. I have done a lot of different things. What I`m taking issue with here is all of these characteristics that you`re all attributing to the defendant on trial here, let`s remember she has no history of violence. She`s not hiding her past. She doesn`t have any history of violence. The tragic victim did have a punching bag in his house. She doesn`t have this history.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh my God. We`re going to convict everybody with a punching bag?

LONGARZO: No, no but


LONGARZO: When there`s a true defense. There is a true defense.

CHICOTSKY: We can name a lot of killers who had no prior history. There are many killers out there who had no prior history. You know sometimes it`s a little bit like a volcanic anger that erupts.

LONGARZO: But he has a history of being raised by meth addicts. He has a history of leading a double life. He`s an insurance salesman.

CHICOTSKY: What kind of double life?

LONGARZO: There`s picture proof she was sexually degraded. So there is definitely --

CHICOTSKY: I don`t think --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to pick it up on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Our panel started debating whether Travis Alexander really lived a double life or if that`s all been blown out of proportion. Yes, he was a Mormon. Yes, he wasn`t supposed to have premarital sex but there are many religions that preclude premarital sex and people still do it. That doesn`t mean they`re living double lives necessarily. We`ll debate it.



FLORES: This is absolutely some of the best evidence I`ve ever had in a case. And I`ve convicted a few people on less than this.

ARIAS: Well, so I`m as good as done?

FLORES: That`s not for me to say. But eventually those photos will come out.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did Travis Alexander, who is not here to speak for himself, have a double life or was he just a guy with urges not living up to all the moral strictures or the religious strictures of his faith? And was he trying to placate a woman who apparently would become very upset when he tried to leave her?

We have some new information from Shanna Hogan who is writing a book about this case "Picture Perfect". Shanna, what have you learned?

SHANNA HOGAN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Yes, we know that she doesn`t have a history of actual violence but she did have a history of being extremely manipulative. I spoke to a lot of Travis` friends and one of the things I`ve heard multiple times is when Travis tried to break up with her, she would actually try to threaten and commit suicide and Travis would came back and said I could not live with that on my conscience and he would placate her.

So she did use those type of strategies to manipulate him and keep that hold on him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know why -- darn. My gosh, Marla Chicotsky, why didn`t the prosecution bring that in? You know, let me tell you something, the jury hasn`t heard the stalking evidence that she stalked him. Now, they didn`t hear this, that every time he tried to break it off like a gentleman, she threatened to commit suicide. Maybe that`s the reason why she`s in his bed that day. Why didn`t they bring that in?

CHICOTSKY: They don`t necessarily need to bring in the bad character evidence of her. Sometimes it`s not admissible in a court of law. What they have in this case is such overwhelming evidence of guilt. You have an admission. You have DNA evidence. You have pictures with time/date stamps on it that show Jodi with Travis the day of the murder.

The prosecution doesn`t need to attack Jodi in this case. There`s so much evidence towards guilt that evidence speaks for itself. I think that there`s no proof that they have, you know, a sexual relationship that was abusive, so why go into whether she was going to commit suicide and why she stalked him? Things of that nature because frankly it`s not relevant to prove the elements of murder in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it wouldn`t hurt. All right, more on the other side.


FLORES: They think that you are absolutely obsessed. Obsessed is the word that they use. That`s the word I hear from everyone -- fatal attraction. I don`t know how many times I`ve heard that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not going to be ignored here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He thought he had a stalker.





LESLIE UDY, JODI ARIAS FRIEND: The person that I had known was a very quiet, soft spoken, gentle person. And so that person that I knew, I couldn`t imagine could have done something like that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jean Casarez, that was technically a prosecution witness, and she ended up saying that she thought Jodi Arias was a kind and gentle person. Who is on the defense witness list aside from this expert? Friends? Anybody like that?

CASAREZ: Besides the domestic violence expert, there is a psychologist. There is a forensics polygraph expert which is really interesting because polygraphs aren`t allowed in criminal prosecutions. Arizona has the rule that if both sides agree ahead of time to allow it in, then it can come in, but I don`t think that`s been done here. That person is on their witness list.

Also a forensic computer specialist is on the witness list, some lay witnesses and a former girlfriend of Travis Alexander, someone that he truly loved in his past.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. That is the most interesting of everything you have told me, and again, I`ve been told by very high-powered attorneys, they often don`t decide whether their client is going to take the stand until the 11th hour. They want to see if they can get by without it. And if they can`t, then they say, "Ok, Hail Mary Pass".

Nancy`s next.