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Did the Nanny Do It?

Aired January 23, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Has it happened again? A nanny who was supposed to care for an innocent, helpless child accused of betraying that trust and hurting the child who then dies?


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, who killed this precious 1- year-old girl? Family and friends in shock and disbelief over the massive head trauma that killed little Rehma. The toddler`s parents say their nanny, an illegal immigrant from Ireland, did it and now they`re learning about the nanny`s secret history. But did she really do it? Stunning parallels to a famous nanny case.

Plus Jodi Arias was such a good liar she even lied to herself in her own diary, asking what on earth happened to Travis, when we now know she`s the one who killed Travis. And will secretly-taped phone-sex conversations between Jodi and Travis be her ticket to freedom? We`re taking your calls.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Quincy (ph) nanny now accused of bodily abusing an infant girl in her care.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She ducked the cameras at every chance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s more to the story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was an angry, angry person. She`d go just off the hinges from, like, zero to 60 in, like, two seconds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turning away in the police cruiser that brought her into the courthouse. She faces charges she allegedly assaulted a baby girl she took care of, hiding behind a white wall with her attorney out front for the arraignment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a horrible situation for everybody, including the family.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Has it happened again? Another nanny accused of viciously attacking an innocent child in her care. A child who dies just two days later.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

The district attorney`s office says this woman, 34-year-old Aisling McCarthy Brady, shook 1-year-old Rehma Sabir and hurt her so violently that the little girl suffered massive brain trauma and fractures to her left arm. They say when cops got to this Cambridge, Massachusetts, apartment, they found the child unresponsive, breathing but unconscious.

Two days later, the nightmare gets worse. The child dies.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He found her at 4:30 that afternoon seizing in the crib. The diagnosis for the injuries is abusive head trauma. That would be consistent with a very violent shaking of the child.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The nanny says she didn`t do it, that there`s more to the story. But do secrets about her past restraining orders and stories of an angry woman from a neighbor tell a very troubling story?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn`t leave her watching my dog for an hour.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you say that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s angry. She was an angry, angry person. She`d go off the -- just off the hinges from, like, zero to 60 in, like, two seconds.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just about anything.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right now, the defendant, Aisling Brady, is charged with assault and battery to a child, but could she, should she be charged with murder? I want to hear from you. Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586- 7297.

Straight out to Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor and law professor at New England Law, Boston. Also, I think, a mother of five, if I`m not wrong.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re there in Massachusetts. Will this woman ultimately be charged with murder? Should she?

MURPHY: You bet -- you bet she will, and of course, she should.

Look, we don`t know everything the defense is planning. But what we know from the prosecution side is that this child had injuries that caused death and that the only person who could have done it was this nanny. We`re talking about classic signs -- classic signs of shaken impact trauma.

Now remember, you and I worked on the case together way back when, the nanny trial, Louise Woodward, the nanny from England who committed a similar kind of an offense and killed a little boy and was convicted of murder. They reduced it to manslaughter, and the defense made a lot about how she didn`t do it and these injuries are not always clearly caused by the nanny because maybe there`s some other explanation.

Well, make no mistake, the experts that testified in that trial back then are going to be even better in this case. And I don`t care what anybody says about where this child was before. When the prosecution says on day one the only person who could have caused these injuries was this nanny, you bet she`ll be charged with murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And by the way, we have attempted to reach the attorneys for this nanny, have been unable to, but the attorneys are invited on any time. Any representative for this woman can come on our show and give their side. We want to hear all sides. We`ve been able to piece together a rough timeline based on published reports.

Monday, January 14 -- this happened just a couple weeks ago -- the child wakes up at about 8 in the morning around the same time the nanny shows up for work.

And about 9:30 in the morning, the mother leaves for work, and the nanny is alone with little Rehma.

From 10 to 1:15 in the afternoon, the child reportedly naps and eats and she plays with the child. Rehma`s grandparents even come by.

Now, it`s a nanny share. So a different mother then drops off an additional child at the home.

Then suddenly, at 4:42 p.m., the call to 911 is made. Something is very wrong with this child.

Prosecutors believe the deadly injuries happened between 1:30 and 4:30 in the afternoon when little Rehma was found seizing in her crib. Two days later, the child dies.

Aisling Brady, the nanny, reportedly told cops the child woke up that morning, quote, "cranky as usual," and said she was a, quote, "fussy eater."

So Dr. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, do those not-so-nice statements about the child by the nanny reveal that she was very frustrated with his child to begin with and even had a hostile attitude toward her?

DR. JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think that`s certainly congruent with what we know about her past. She is somebody who can get emotional, can fly off the handle. We`re hearing this and we`re seeing the evidence from all of the different allegations that are now coming out about her violent history.

And so that could certainly be a precursor if she`s emotional about the child, especially those negative emotions. Later on, she just loses it.

And we know that sometimes people love their children, and yet, they still abuse their children when they get emotional. And so even if the defense is saying, hey, this nanny really loves the children he cares for, she cares about children, it doesn`t really matter. Because if she loses it when she gets emotional, she is capable of anything.

And some of the stories that are coming out about her from previous are so egregious. You know, her biting the pinky of her roommate and throwing bottles at people in a bar.


HO: It`s all making sense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In fact, we`ve got some stuff on that. We`ve done a little research on Annie`s (ph) neighbor, as you heard. But it bears repeating. The neighbor was not surprised to hear the accusations against this woman. He says she`s his neighbor, and he knows that she has a temper.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me and her have been like oil and water since the day she moved in. And she just has a really, really bad temper.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: "The Boston Herald" reports this woman, 34-year-old Aisling Brady, is an illegal immigrant. She reportedly arrived from Ireland back in 2002 on a visa waiver that allowed her to stay in the United States for just three months, but she stayed here afterwards illegally.

She has a history with the law. An assault and battery case against her about five years ago was dismissed.

Now, back in 005, a former boyfriend took out a restraining order against her, claiming that she attacked him in a bar and, quote, hit him -- hit him and scraped at him, throwing a beer bottle at a woman, and vowing to make his life a living hell.

And then just last year a woman took out a restraining order against her, saying that she accused her of abusing kids in the playground.

Let`s bring in our two attorneys to debate this. Brian Silver, you`re a criminal defense attorney, versus Alison Triessl.

That seems to me to be very damning indeed, that she has a history of having a very wicked temper.

BRIAN SILVER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in my opinion, it clearly is a red flag. And it`s something that investigators need to give close attention to.

But having a short fuse by itself does not mean she`s guilty of murder.

In my opinion, this case comes down to two very specific issues. No. 1, when did the child sustain the traumatic injury? The time of injury is going to be very important.

And No. 2, who had access to that child during that time? So far as they discuss this case, all we hear are allegations, but no one is talking about the evidence. We know grandparents were present. We know another mother was present. Who else was present? Answering those questions will tell us a lot more about this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alison Triessl?

ALISON TRIESSL, ATTORNEY: So Jane, I`ll tell you, I think this case really is very, very important to look at when the prior injuries occurred.

Apparently during the autopsy, it was found that there were some lacerations, there were some broken bones that had occurred a couple weeks before. That may show some type -- that this was a pattern for this woman.

I agree that I don`t think the prior record is as important. Although you can see that the 2005...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think the prior record will get in, Alison? Do you think this prior record...

TRIESSL: I don`t.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why not? To me, totally relevant.

TRIESSL: I don`t think it`s relevant.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The past is a predictor.

TRIESSL: They are not felony convictions. They`re not felony convictions. It`s restraining order stuff. The 2007 one was dismissed. Although I do think it`s very interesting to note that, in 2005 and in 2007, both incidents were at bars and involving alcohol.

So I think there`s going to be something there where this woman does have a history of becoming angry or violent when she`s drinking, but I don`t think they`re relevant for this case. I think what will be relevant and what will come in is what happened with those prior broken bones.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Alison, you make a good point about the bars.

Dr. Cathleen London, board-certified family practice physician, should cops have tested this nanny to see if she was drunk or high?

DR. CATHLEEN LONDON, FAMILY PHYSICIAN: Absolutely. And actually I want to go a little more on this it point about the prior injuries.

So the autopsy showed what is a pattern of an abused child, because there were -- there were fractures that were in all different stages of healing, from anywhere from two weeks to two months.

And if my recollection is correct and the reports I`m reading are correct, the child was out of the country. So that to me puts, well is it really the nanny or someone else abusing this child? And how can people not notice that the leg is fractured?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The devil`s in the details. We know that she had traveled around the world. We`re going to get to that on the other side of the break. The question is when. Stay right there.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He found her at 4:30 that afternoon seizing in the crib. The diagnosis for the injuries is abusive head trauma. That would be consistent with a very violent shaking of a child.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were bruising underneath the scalp of the child`s head. There was bruising on the child`s buttocks.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a story. Has it happened again? This woman, this nanny, who is from Ireland and was here on a visa, overstayed and is here illegally. Arrested now, accused of battery, assault and battery on a child who died. And they -- the charges are expected to be upgraded once the autopsy report comes out. Could she be charged with murder?

Let`s go to the phone lines. Mary, Washington, your question or thought. Mary, Washington.

CALLER: Yes. I know she came from overseas. I just heard you, Jane. I love you and I love your advocate -- you know, you advocate for animals. And I just think that you should keep on advocating for them.


CALLER: Where did they actually find her? Like, was it family or friends? Or...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that is an excellent question. And my understanding, Dr. Cathleen London -- and you`re a physician, board- certified family physician -- is that this was a nanny share.

And so that`s an important piece of the puzzle. Because if you go through an agency, maybe you have a background check that would have turned up all her history. Maybe if it`s a nanny share, you assume somebody else was doing the checking. And also, if she was here illegally, could there have been some way of being paid in a way that, well, she wouldn`t be working necessarily through an agency?

LONDON: Well, that`s it. She was registered on some online sites. And those vary very much. When my children were little, I used some of these. Some of them do checking. There are ways to pay to have background checks done. These parents didn`t look for visas, didn`t look for green cards, didn`t look for any of that.

So how much checking was done prior to even hiring? And so yes, we`re talking two different families let that go. And I know child care is difficult, but that certainly puts the message out there of please be careful when you`re hiring. We`ve had so many horror stories, you know, and -- of people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. And word of mouth and some of the old- fashioned ways that seem -- intuitively they feel like a good way to go. Not so much. Because people can present in a totally different way than what they really are. And they can have a smoke screen of a nice person and sometimes not so nice.

The prosecutors reportedly also claim, and this is where the story gets really tricky, so listen to this. They also claim the child had old fractures on her body. Now here they are: fractures to her elbow, her bone, her elbow bone, her shinbone, her leg bone, and these fractures were reportedly between two weeks and two months old. So how do they play into the case? Could they actually help the defense? Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My understanding is the last five weeks she`s been traveling to London, to Pakistan, and to Saudi Arabia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does she actually know who may have injured the child?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no idea what happened to this child. I hope no one injured this child.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That`s the defense attorney who`s representing the nanny. Our affiliate, WCVB, reports the defense attorney -- and by the way, while we talk, we`re going to show you some video of the area where all of this happened.

The defense attorney claims the baby showed signs of malnourishment and even though Brady, this woman, had been caring for the child for six months, she was not with the 1-year-old for some time before her death. So who is responsible for those injuries?

The defense attorney says the child`s parents had taken her to London as well as to Pakistan as well as to Saudi Arabia. She didn`t blame the injuries on anyone else, but I got to ask, let`s bring in the attorneys again, Brian Silver, Alison Triessl. Could those old injuries somehow help the defense -- Brian?

SILVER: Absolutely. You know, the question is at what point did this woman have access to the child? In other words, when they traveled to Saudi Arabia and to Pakistan, was she with them? Because if she wasn`t, then that raises a very big question. Because it`s clear that this child has been abused. And if someone else abused that child, it`s equally plausible that that same person is responsible for the murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, what do you make of it?

MURPHY: You know, look. It`s nice to speculate about the old injuries. And that`s fine. People can do it. The defense can raise issues. The child died from massive head trauma that occurred only in a window of time when this nanny had access to the child. You can make up all kinds of stories about Saudi Arabian bogeymen all day long. The jury is going to say, but what killed the child?

And we know, scientists told us, and this was true in the Louise Woodward case, the British nanny case, same county in Massachusetts, by the way, same prosecutor some of them still on board here. This is an Irish nanny. We may see some international brouhaha about this and her country standing up for her. But the evidence is going to be overwhelming.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, more calls. And we`ve got more information on this case. Just a fascinating but horrible tragedy. One- year-old girl, dead.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me and her have been like oil and water since the day she moved in. Just a really, really bad temper.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn`t leave her watching my dog for an hour.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you say that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s angry. She was an angry, angry person. She`d go off the -- just off the hinges from, like, zero to 60 in, like, two seconds.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just about anything.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is a neighbor of the nanny that this woman who has now been accused of assault and battery on a child. But those charges could be upgraded, because the 1-year-old girl she was watching ultimately died.

Now here`s some key pieces of evidence that were discovered in the apartment. And this is court records obtained by "The Boston Globe," allegedly show cops found blood-stained baby wipes and a blood-stained pillow and blanket in the 1-year-old`s crib, as well as a piece of damaged dry wall directly next to the changing table.

Still, the defense says the nanny is innocent. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This violence, it didn`t happen, your honor, by Ms. McCarthy`s hands. Again, nobody is blaming anyone else, including Ms. McCarthy, but there`s more to this story than you`ve heard.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alison Triessl, I`ve heard the old "there`s more to the story." We`re doing the Jodi Arias case, and we`re hearing "There`s more to this story." But here`s forensic evidence here.

And as Wendy Murphy said, the timeline shows she died within a very narrow period of time in which this nanny was reportedly alone with the baby.

TRIESSL: Yes, I think that there are big problems for the defense. Wendy`s absolutely right. You`ve got to rule out anybody else.

And this case is very new. And what we know so far is that she`s the only one that had access to the child at that time.

I do not discount the fact that there were prior injuries. And if she was not around at that time, I do think that`s significant.

But again, the defense has big problems if nobody else had access to this child at that time. And that appears to be the case early on.

I also very early on predication, there`s no way this is a first- degree murder case. I think it could be a second in Massachusetts or a manslaughter, but a first-degree murder charge in Massachusetts is a very, very high burden, that she somehow intended this result.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Doctor Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, what`s really sad about this, it`s happening all over the country. Every year there`s at least 1,300 cases of head trauma to children, the shaken baby syndrome. What people are just -- you know what? If you can`t deal with a crying baby, don`t have children, don`t become a nanny. That`s my opinion.

HO: I agree with you, Jane. I mean, it`s really sad that it`s happening everywhere. But babies are not allowed to defend themselves. They can`t defend themselves. And so in some ways, sadly, they are such an easy victim.

And I know you were saying earlier, too, that this baby appeared to be malnourished. And that`s one of the highest ways of abuse that we see around the nation, is this sort of neglect of the child. And, you know, not treating them medically, not giving them the food they need. And that`s another type of abuse. And it sounds like this child was exposed to that, as well.

And so there`s just multiple things that could happen. And because they can`t defend themselves, they`re an easy target for people who have anger issues, who get frustrated and don`t know what else to take it out on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s why -- that`s why you have to be so careful when you`re hiring somebody. This tragedy happening just a few months after another infamous nanny case that sent shock waves through the country. It was horrific, Yoselyn Ortega accused of stabbing two of the children she was looking after in their family`s prestigious New York City apartment. Ortega allegedly also stabbed herself. She`s pleaded not guilty. This was something that rattled -- I`m here in New York City, and it rattled people to the core.

There`s also the infamous case of Louise Woodward, the British au pair, who as Wendy mentioned, was convicted of manslaughter. She was 19 years old. For the shaking death of 8-month-old Matthew Eappen back in Massachusetts.

So the bottom line is, it takes a tremendous amount of trust to leave your child with anybody for even a minute. Parents must do, and this is not to blame any parents. All these parents are horrific, horrific victims, and my heart goes out to them and my condolences. But so that we can learn from these tragedies.

I think -- and I`ll put this back to Cathleen London. We really should actually probably pass laws to ensure that people who have restraining orders against them or who had a history of mental illness or whatever cannot get into these positions. Because they can be very, very convincing and charming when they want to, when they need cash.

LONDON: I agree with you. I do want to point out that it`s the prosecutors who have done this timeline of when the injuries happened.

That shaken baby, the baby started seizing at 4:30. We don`t know exactly when the injuries occurred. So I`m still -- personally, I`m not convinced until I know about this whole history. This is an abused child. Clearly.


LONDON: Clearly. And that needs to be unearthed. As to -- yes, I agree that someone who has raging, who`s had a history of restraining orders, who has an issue in bars, does not belong taking care of children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. Dr. Cathleen London and our fantastic panel, Dr. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, all of our attorneys, thank you so much. We`re going to stay on top of this case. It`s so important for parents.

New revolutions, meantime, in the Jodi Arias case. You won`t believe what investigators found when they arrested Jodi. That`s next.

And at the top of the hour, a 42-year-old high school teacher marries the student she`s accused of having sex with. Whoa. "NANCY GRACE" tonight, top of the hour, 8 p.m. Keep it right here on HLN.




If I`m found guilty, I don`t have a life.

If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

If Travis were here today he would tell you it wasn`t me.

My cat scratches me. She`s a feral cat.

If I was going to try to kill somebody, I would use gloves. I have plenty of them.

It`s hurting my reputation.

I`m all for the 10 commandments. Thou shalt not kill.

I`m still friends with my ex-boyfriends, they are all still alive.

I guess there`s something that`s wrong with me psychologically. I think of the butterfly effect.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight gearing up for round two of surprises in the Jodi Arias murder trial. Will Jodi be convicted of viciously murdering her ex-boyfriend? Or will the defense use the victim`s own words to defend the woman who admits I killed him.

This beautiful 32-year-old photographer confessed that she stabbed her ex-boyfriend 29 times, slit Travis Alexander`s throat from ear to ear and shot him in the face for good measure. But Jodi`s defense claimed she had absolutely no choice but to kill Travis in self-defense leaving behind his mutilated body.

You can see the autopsy photos. The defense claims Travis psychological abused and sexually degraded Jodi keeping her as his dirty little secret. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Behind the smiles in these photographs, there was a whole other reality for Jodi -- a reality that Travis created. Because in reality, Jodi was Travis`s dirty little secret.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And of course, this blame the victim strategy has really, really just horrified Travis Alexander`s family. And they plan to blame the victim and even use recorded phone sex calls between Travis and Jodi to try to prove their point. Listen to this.

This is the defense.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In this phone call, he talks about his fantasies. His fantasies with Jodi of tying her to a tree and putting it, forgive me, in her (EXPLETIVE DELETED) all the way. Jodi pretends to climax during this phone call. Travis tells her that she sounds like a 12- year-old girl who was having an orgasm for the first time. Then he tells her "It`s so hot."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You saw Travis`s furious family. Will they be able, the defense, to twist the triple x-rated photos that the prosecution showed to the jury and sort of manipulate that to try to prove that Travis abused Jodi? Photos like this of Jodi laying on Travis`s bed, seductively in pig tails. Will they try to turn that into some sexual role-playing game?

I want to hear from you. Call me 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

So to debate whether or not this is ok or it`s morally reprehensible, let`s bring in the attorneys: Alison Triessl and Brian Silber. Brian we begin with you. Is it dirty pool to use the dead man, the victim`s own words in phone sex conversations to try to prove the point that would benefit the person who has now admitted killing him?

BRIAN SILBER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, as a trial attorney, my opinion really is it comes down to the evidence. And if you`re using this information merely just to disparage this person, that`s an awful, disgusting, and unethical thing that no lawyer should ever do, prosecutor or defense lawyer.

However, my suspicion is that we`re going to learn about the Travis that Jodi knew -- not what the rest of us knew, not the Travis that went to church -- the Travis that had sex with her that degraded her and made her do things that drove her to the edge. That`s what this jury is going to hear. For that reason, it may be appropriate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, having a double life may be going to church or being conflicted, that doesn`t mean that you`re a sexual abuser. That`s quite a leap, Alison Triessl, criminal defense attorney.

ALISON TRIESSL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I mean I think the perverse thing that`s going on here is that for all the women that really have been victims of abuse from their boyfriend or their husband or their partner and she`s using it and there`s no claim and the defense, I do not believe is going to put up people who said yes, we saw him abuse her. There were no police reports filed where she was the victim of abuse.

So if they`re in fact using the fact that she was a victim of abuse when she was not, there may have been some weird, strange, fetish sex going on, but she in fact is really a killer and is using this as an excuse. It really minimizes all those women that really have suffered in abusive relationships and that`s what I`m worried about here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, absolutely. From the clues from the opening statements, it looks like the defense does plan to put Travis, the victim, the dead person who can`t speak for himself, on trial. Listen to this, again, the defense attorney.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While he continued this facade of being a good and virginal Mormon man, he was inwardly dealing with his own sexual issues. And in Jodi, in Jodi he found somebody who was easily manipulated and controlled, someone who would provide him with the secretive sexual relationship that he needed.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And to prove that so-called double life, the defense is reportedly going to play secretly-recorded phone sex conversations between Jodi and Travis.

But I want to go to Simone Bienne, psycho-sexual relationship therapist. A sexual fantasy over the phone, all right, is one thing. Acting that out in real life is something else entirely. Let me ask you as an expert. Isn`t it true that somebody can suggest a wild sex fantasy on the phone with absolutely no intention of whatsoever of ever acting it out in real life?

SIMONE BIENNE, PSYCHO-SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP THERAPIST: Absolutely, Jane. The clue is in exactly what you say, the word "fantasy". Fantasies are there so we step beyond our sexual safety zone and it doesn`t mean that you are going to act anything out.

And what really upsets me going off what Alison was saying, Jodi, it does not look like an abused woman, a woman who has been battered. She clearly was engaging with this -- these toxic, crazy, sexual games that they were playing -- she got off on it. She didn`t feel bad afterwards. She didn`t feel shame afterwards. She didn`t feel remorse afterwards. The attention was something that turned her on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well put. She never called 911; she never seemed to complain to anybody about bruises. And if it`s a game, well there`s two adults participating in a game -- two consenting adults.

On the other side, we`re going to talk to a juror in the Michael Jackson death trial about what these jurors who are on an extended break might be looking at right now.


ARIAS: I guess it`s really all I need. Sorry. Don`t roll the tape yet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you had nothing to do with Travis Alexander`s death?

ARIAS: Nothing to do with it.

ESTEBAN FLORES, DETECTIVE: Were you in Travis`s house on Wednesday?

ARIAS: Absolutely not. I was nowhere near Mesa. I was nowhere near Phoenix.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s a whole school of thought that you can save a ton of money eliminating unnecessary products by using white vinegar to clean a lot of surfaces in your house. Let`s test it out.

Here we go. Some white vinegar. Let`s see how it is for cleaning mirrors. And I`ve been told you can get a mirror really nice and clean with white vinegar. And I see that it is working.

Now guess what? You can clean so many things in your house with simple ingredients like white vinegar. It`s not harmful to the environment. It will save you money and it`s kind of fun.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As Travis would explain to Jodi, oral sex really isn`t as much of a sin for him as vaginal sex. So he was able to convince her to give him oral sex. And later in their relationship, Travis would tell her that anal sex really isn`t much of a sin compared to vaginal sex so he was able to persuade her to allow him to have anal sex with her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The big development coming up next is the defense case is going to start. The prosecution rested and now this trial is on an almost a two-week break in between the two opposing sides. You might call this half-time. That means the jury is -- they`re not sequestered by the way.

They are supposed to stay away from anything to do with this case. They shouldn`t talk about it. They shouldn`t read about it, nada.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You do not need to return until January 29th. You must be very diligent to avoid any contact with any outside information about this case.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is it like trying to avoid publicity and avoid news and headlines and Facebook posts on a huge trial? Well, we`re delighted to have us Juror Number 5, Debbie Franklin, who served on the Michael Jackson death trial involving the defendant Dr. Conrad Murray. You remember that case, we covered it here in depth.

Debbie you join us on the phone. You were also not sequestered, just as the Jodi Arias jurors are not sequestered. How difficult was it to stay away from any information on that case since that was also all over the news?

DEBBIE FRANKLIN, JUROR IN MICHAEL JACKSON DEATH TRIAL (via telephone): I didn`t think it was that difficult. We knew we weren`t supposed to watch TV, read anything in the paper about it or listen to anything related to the trial. And we followed those directions. If we happened to be watching TV and something came on, you turned the channel.

And honestly, after sitting on the trial all day long, listening to it in detail all day long, the last thing you really want to do is go home and hear anything more about it. I don`t think it`s that difficult at all not to listen to it or read things about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Debbie, didn`t people in the neighborhood want to talk to you about it? I mean I was covering -- I was right there. You were going inside the building, I was outside every day interviewing all the Jackson fans and all the chaos and the people arguing, chanting. And everybody wanted -- I`d go to dinner with a friend. They wanted to hear all about the trial. Didn`t people sort of bug you to get -- oh here`s my opinion?

FRANKLIN: Well, people didn`t know that I was on the jury. We didn`t see people as we came in and out of the building to the trial. We didn`t see people. We were brought up a different way. Nobody in my neighborhood knew that I was on the trial. So nobody was calling me or talking about it or anything because nobody knew that I was actually on the trial.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And are you following the Jodi Arias case?

FRANKLIN: I follow bits and pieces of it at night, just recaps here and there, but I haven`t been watching the trial.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have a real quick question. Do you agree with me, my opinion is that even though everybody is saying she`s guilty, the evidence is so overwhelming, it`s the most overwhelming case that the jurors see it totally differently?

FRANKLIN: Well, I think when you`re not hearing the outside opinions, you`re paying attention only to what the details of the case are and you make up your opinions based only on what`s presented in court. And sometimes that is different than what people are hearing when they are reading papers or listening to TV or commentators and things like that. You`re only getting the true facts of what`s presented in court.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Debbie Franklin, you sound like a super juror. I just hope the jurors in this case are as level-headed and as smart and as thoughtful as you are. Thank you for joining us.

Beth Karas, correspondent, "In Session"; you`re there in Arizona. What`s coming up in this case next?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, actually, before the defense case begins, Jane, there`s going to be a hearing Monday, it will be about 12:30 Eastern time. We just learned that the defense filed notice of witnesses they want to call at this hearing and that the hearing is because they are alleging prosecutorial misconduct. They have been alleging it throughout the case saying that the prosecution wasn`t telling them about text messages that they were able to recover from Travis Alexander`s telephone originally after he died. They couldn`t recover them and then technology became available a few years later and they could recover them. And it`s just sort of a question of what they knew, when they knew it and when they made it available.

I think that`s what the prosecutorial misconduct for Monday`s hearing is about.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me ask you this quickly, Beth. We have heard so much -- is Jodi going to testify? Isn`t she going to take the stand? But are there any potential bomb shell witnesses for the defense?

KARAS: Well, you know, they have a polygraph examiner. They have a computer forensic person, they have a psychologist. They have a battered women syndrome domestic violence expert.

And then they have friends. They have I think a guy she used to date. They have a woman Travis Alexander dated, Lisa Andrews; and a few others on your list as well as Jodi Arias. So, if we see some of these people who were in Travis Alexander`s life, that could be quite interesting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It could. And on the other side of the break, we`re going to talk to Shanna Hogan who is writing "Picture Perfect", a book about this case. And get her insight into this blame-the-victim strategy.

Stay right there. We`re also taking your calls.


ARIAS: I would never stab him. If I had it in me anywhere to kill him, the least I could have done was make it as humane as possible. Quick or something, you know?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re the Jodi Arias Show; we`re covering it every day. And Monday right here on the show, don`t miss a very special guest, a former co-worker of Jodi Arias. She has plenty to say about her. That is Monday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

We have more on the other side of this break. We`re going to bring you every day the very latest on this case.

The diaries of Jodi Arias -- next.



ARIAS: If I`m found guilty, I don`t have a life. I`m not guilty. I didn`t hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Careful what you wish for because she has now admitted she did kill Travis but she claims self-defense.

Let`s go out to the phone lines, Mike, Massachusetts -- your question or thought, Mike.

MIKE, MASSACHUSETTS (via telephone): Jane, love the show.


MIKE: Question -- actually a comment first. I`m the one guy in America who thinks everybody is innocent including O.J., Michael Jackson, Casey Anthony. I could give you 100 reasons they`re innocent. This girl takes the cake for me. The reason I say that is you`re claiming self- defense. If you`re trying to defend yourself, you don`t stab somebody 29 times and then shoot them.

My question is, is it possible that the defense is coming up with this crazy theory just in an effort to get the death penalty off the table?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect" I think you heard the question. Is this all just an attempt to avoid her being sentenced to death?

SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST: That`s a really good question and that`s the thing we`ve been speculating about in the media as well. Is they`re just trying to get her to not get the death penalty and a lot of that is putting that victim on the stand, giving her a reason in her mind, showing the jurors that she had a reason in her mind to kill him because she felt sexually abused or that, you know, she (inaudible) and tossed aside.

I mean that might work (inaudible). And I actually thought that as well so it`s up to speculation of whether or not that`s what their strategy is. It`s a very good point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi`s lies were so deep she even lied in her own diary. Cops found her journal and she had written, quote, "Travis is dead. What happened? Travis, what is this?"

Simone Bienne, psychosexual and relationship therapist, this woman is just beyond bizarre. She kills him. She admits that. Then she calls and leaves a voice mail, basically, hey, how are you doing? I would love to hang out with you. She knows he is dead and she`s leaving a voice mail.

Is she capable, do you think, of taking the stand and coming up with another crazy lie, like something that just takes the prosecution by surprise that they wouldn`t even be prepared for cross-examination? I`m not saying Martians landed and handed her the gun but close.

BIENNE: I think, Jane, we`re going to be surprised next week. We`re going to be glued to your show next week for all the updates. This is a woman who clinically speaking is utterly bonkers. I mean she is so pathological, it is scary. And she`s trying to present herself as the victim, as poor old me.

And I think, in that case, she is being very manipulative. We all know that victims can hold an awful lot of power and this is what she is trying to claw back. And you can see it in her body language, how she holds herself in the fetal position. She is very manipulative.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to ask on the other side of the break -- we have three attorneys, so listen to this question, think about it. Very quickly we`re going to ask them, can she take the stand and just make up just about anything? What`s to stop her? What does she have to lose?

On the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man. She knocked the blessings out of him by putting a bullet in his head.




FLORES: Have you ever shot that .25 auto? Have you ever touched it?

ARIAS: I never stole it. No, I`ve never seen it. My grandpa says it looks like a toy gun. I don`t know what a .25 looks like.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lies, lies, lies. Attorneys, she`s had four and a half years to rehearse in her jail cell more lies. Can she just state anything on the stand? Starting with Brian.

SILBER: I completely object to the premise of this question. Everyone here has her labeled, but nobody has given her the chance to say what she has to say or have this defense put on their defense.

She doesn`t look like a battered woman. Tell me, what does a battered woman look like to you? As a former domestic violence prosecutor, I can tell you there is no, quote, "look". They come in all walks of life, can be male, can be female.

What this will come down to is her version of events and, yes, under our constitution she has the right to tell her story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Thank you. Alison?

TRIESSL: Well, first of all, Brian, I absolutely disagree with you. I`m a criminal defense attorney and I have to tell you this is a case where there`s overwhelming evidence against her. What does she have to lose? She has her life to lose.

This jury may say yes she lied to the police but it will be another thing if she gets up and she lies to them, and then they`ll give her the death penalty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Beth Karas?

KARAS: It will be extremely risky for her if she gets on the stand and tells yet another story. Jodi Arias has had ample opportunity to tell police that she was abused and she had no choice. She reached out to them. She talked to them for hours. She never mentioned it, not until two years after she was incarcerated.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, thank you, panel. I know liars, they lie and they know how to do it well. We shall see.

Nancy Grace is up next.