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Arias Trial Fireworks
Aired January 28, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, what do Jodi Arias` lawyer have to do to win? Former Casey Anthony attorney is with me exclusively. We`ll also hear from him on reports that Casey is bankrupt.
And later, a community buries three young children and their parents, all allegedly gunned down by their teenage son. I`m speaking to his uncle.
Plus, police released a confession for another family murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just killed my mom and my sister.
PINSKY: This young suspect reportedly said a movie inspired him. We`ll get into that, figure this out and more.
So let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome to the program. My co-host all this week is Laura Baron.
And tonight`s all-star panel: Marcia Clark, famous for prosecuting O.J. Simpson and author of "Guilty by Association." Jose Baez got Casey Anthony acquitted. And Dr. Casey Jordan, a criminologist and consultant for Discovery I.D. "Scorned! and I Almost Got Away with It". And "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas.
But before we go to this panel, we were supposed to have another exclusive with Jodi`s ex-boyfriend on tonight. But listen to what happened in court today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Abdelhadi, if I`m saying this correctly, he gave an interview on television saying that he would precluded from testifying here in court.
JUDGE SHERRY K. STEPHENS: I`m going to give you an opportunity to prepare for cross examination and we will call Mr. Abdelhadi back at a later date this week. But we will call him now for direct examination.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know somebody by the name of Gus Searcy.
ABDELHADI (via telephone): Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In regard to these phone calls that went unreturned by the prosecution, what was his demeanor when he was telling you about this?
HADI: It seemed to me that he was a little surprised, a little insulted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Beth, tell me about this. Did we create all this consternation in court by interviewing our friend?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": No, I don`t think you did anything wrong. It was perfectly fine that Mr. Abdelhadi came on your show.
What the defense -- it`s not really clear what their allegation on misconduct is, but I think it has more to do with another person reaching out to Gus Searcy who testified for the defense today. And maybe the defense is suggesting that the prosecution threw another coworker at Gus and was trying to persuade him from cooperating with the defense. But Mr. Abdelhadi simply supported the state position that that`s not so.
PINSKY: And, Casey, large part of the defense here is about her being a battered woman. Does she fit the profile for you as a battered woman?
CASEY JORDAN, PH.D., CRIMINOLOGIST AND BEHAVIORAL ANALYST: It would be the ultimate stretch to really plug her in. To what we know about women, especially who have been successful with the abuse defense. Think about Lorena Bobbitt or Martha Sheehan (ph) or Mary Hinkler (ph), they have long histories of abuse, moreover, anyone within the inner circles knows that they`ve never witnessed it, there are personality characteristics of the alleged abuser, that they can all imagine bad things have happened behind closed doors.
But all of Travis Alexander`s friends really stand by him and say he wasn`t capable of anger. They never saw -- he was a sweet, good-natured, gentle person, and we have no police reports, no change in her behavior, no introversion, no isolation. Really nothing to back that up except her word, which isn`t worth a whole lot given her string of lies.
PINSKY: And, Marcia, you are, of course, famous for the O.J. Simpson trial, author of "Guilt by Association" -- your thoughts on this?
MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION": That she fits the profile of a battered woman? I don`t see it at all. None of her behavior fits it.
PINSKY: Most of that is the strategy of the defense.
CLARK: I`m saying will a jury buy it? I`m talking about whether or not -- you asked my opinion whether or not I thought it was viable. I think it`s the only theory they have. It`s the only defense strategy there is. I don`t think it`s going to succeed.
Her inconsistent behavior -- and I`m not saying victims don`t sometimes behave inconsistently. But hers is so wildly out of sync with anything that fits within the battered person`s syndrome, I think it would be really difficult for an expert to sell that to the jury. I mean, we`ll see, but I think the prosecution has a wonderful, wonderful line of cross examination just waiting for them.
PINSKY: Laura, I want to ask you something --
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: You know, Marcia, as a woman, how insulting is it that she is coming up -- that they are coming out with this battered woman syndrome in the ninth hour to presumably just get her off? Does that bother you as much as it bothers me?
CLARK: But they have nothing else. They have to go whole hog with it. What else do they have? They have nothing else. It`s, I didn`t do it, I wasn`t there. Oops, I was there and some other attackers got me, and then it was, you know, oh, OK, he beat me up but it was self-defense.
It`s one of these -- it`s kind of the classic thing where the rat runs the light and look for any opportunity, any avenue. I would think a prosecutor is going to have a field day with all of the statements she made, all of them lies, provable lies, that she had accepted, OK, that wasn`t true, then it was this. That wasn`t true, then it was this. It`s really going to be easy for the prosecutor to kind of walk a knife through butter on this.
PINSKY: Casey, I`m going back to you. The fact that in the O.J. trial, Marcia, you`re the victim. And this trial, our victim, nearly had their heads cut off by these crimes of what seem to be passion.
So, what I`m asking, Casey, is there a pattern like that out there? Rather than the pattern of domestic violence, is this the pattern we should be looking at?
JORDAN: Perhaps. I actually host a show on I.D. called "Wives with Knives." It`s exactly about women who are generally scorned or plan an attack. You have to understand that when women attack, and there`s an interesting thing about this case in that she had a gun as well. That knife is something they`re familiar with.
The 27 stab wounds to me speaks for itself, and that is clearly rage. That`s not staging. I know that there is some conflicting evidence as to whether Travis was shot first or stabbed first, and I`m not really sure it matters, because there had to be rage for 27 stab wounds, including one straight through the heart and seven to the back.
And then the temerity of her to photograph it after the fact, which they`re not disputing, really does go toward the idea this was a crime of rage. Calculated or not, the rage was there. And I think it had everything to do with jealousy and the fact he was going on a cruise with another woman in a week.
PINSKY: OK, Jose, I`m going to go to you now. You, of course, have defended a nefarious out there, let`s just say. And people, I remember back when your trial was on, people were like, oh, is Casey going -- there were a lot of consternation of whether or not she would take the stand? Do you think Jodi should take the stand?
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, she has to if she`s asserting an affirmative defense. In this case, she is, which is self-defense. So there is a substantial likelihood that she will, but she doesn`t necessarily have to if she can somehow show through the physical evidence and the forensic evidence that perhaps there was a struggle and it was quite possible that it was done in self-defense.
But if she`s going to fully assert that self-defense, she`s going to have to take the stand. But we all know she doesn`t have to.
PINSKY: I don`t know. Anyone else have an opinion about that? It seems like maybe that`s what`s coming here. We`re all sort of anticipating that because we all look at this defense and go, nobody buys it, maybe she can sell it to somebody.
CLARK: She doesn`t need to take the stand, Drew. She doesn`t have to if she can get her experts to tell the story, and no, they won`t cut to the truth of the matter asserted, and that`s legal terminology for saying an expert can testify to an opinion and base his opinion on hearsay.
And then that hearsay that he bases an opinion on, for example, her statement to the expert or what he heard of her, that doesn`t have to be admissible in and of itself. He can just say, my opinion is she was suffering from battered person`s syndrome. She told me, da, da, da, da, da. You know, he attacked her, she was upset, it all fell out this way, and that way the testimony gets before the jury.
The jury will be instructed they aren`t to rely on that as evidence of actual statements made by her, just as material that the witness, that the expert, relies upon. But that`s fine shaving, that kind of fine line is something juries have a really hard time -- it`s like unringing the bell. How can they pretend they didn`t hear the expert testified to the statements that she made?
So, they can often get by with an expert saying, opining, that she was a battered person without her getting on the witness stand.
PINSKY: OKL. We need to take a break. Finish that thought.
Beth, finish that thought.
KARAS: I just want to say that the judge ruled already that the experts cannot testify to the basis of their opinions. However, they can`t do a run-around with Jodi being on the stand and being cross examined. But, it may come out anyway. The prosecution may not object in the end and may ask himself.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, we`re going to show you some footage of some interesting and heated exchange. We got to take a break here. That occurred in the courtroom.
And later, Jose`s reaction to the news that Casey Anthony is, guess what, she is bankrupt. We`re going to show you her belongings in that bankruptcy hearing today. And you`ll see what she`s worth, every bit of it, after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR You`ve attempted to call the Maricopa County attorney`s office, haven`t you?
GUS SEACY, WITNESS: Yes, I`ve tried to reach you plenty of times.
MARTINEZ: And, in fact, no one from the county`s attorney`s office ever return your call, right?
SEACY: Which I found really interesting.
MARTINEZ: Yes or no?
MARTINEZ: You were upset that you called the county prosecutor`s office and they didn`t return your call?
SEACY: I wouldn`t say I was upset, I was surprised.
MARTINEZ: You were upset with the prosecution because they weren`t calling you, right?
MARTIEZ: Isn`t your reputation, sir, that you want to make yourself the center of attention?
SEACY: Where do you get that from?
MARTINEZ: I`m asking you a question, sir. You don`t get to ask me questions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was the heated exchange -- he became the center of attention tonight for us, too.
Welcome back. Co-host is Laura Baron this week.
The jury was not present for that, Beth Karas. Tell us what that was about.
KARAS: Well, this was cross examination. Juan Martinez was really annoyed at Gus Searcy because he has just said that he had been trying to reach the prosecutor`s office, and that this guy, Jeff Hughes, another coworker, had called him two weeks ago saying, I`m looking for the prosecution and why are you testifying for the defense and trying to get information out of them?
Well, it turns out that Juan Martinez never did return Searcy`s call. It is true that Searcy called him. But he thinks that Searcy is trying to be the Kato Kaelin of this trial. That`s what it looks like.
BARON: Drew, what is that? What is it about people wanting to hang onto murderers, people who want to be in these major trials? What`s so sexy about it?
PINSKY: Well, you know, I think Kato is trying to hang onto his meal ticket there and it just so happened he got sucked into the murder trial. I don`t think he was expecting that.
Yes, I think people get fascinated by attention. That`s what the attorney was saying there. Jose, do you agree with any of this?
BAEZ: Well, I do. When you`re in a case like this, there are a lot of people who want to walk in the parade. They see a lot of attention going on, and they think that somehow they can catapult it or manipulate it into a second career of sorts. And I see that -- you see that all the time.
And many times they`ll create testimony or stretch testimony and talk about things they never saw, heard or smelled before, and you have this. It is par for the course with these types of cases, and I`m certain Marcia can speak of that as well. But it is just as common as can be.
PINSKY: Well, yes, the O.J. case sort of invented the phenomenon. Yes. So, tell us about it, Marcia.
CLARK: Jose is right. This is one of the things that happens in high-profile cases and it`s one of the downsides in having media involved in any of these trials, because you have witnesses coming forward who just want their 15 minutes of fame. They make up testimony or they heighten testimony, and it really so undermines the purpose of speaking truth and justice. It`s bad for the prosecution, it`s bad for the defense.
On the other hand, you also have witnesses who don`t want to come forward and actually scale back their testimony. Kato Kaelin is an example of someone who tried not to testify, tried not to tell us all that he knew about the domestic violence between Simpson and Nicole.
So, the media`s involvement is a devastating thing on both ends of the spectrum, and seeing it here with this Mr. Searcy, it was so clear to me watching everything that went down, and the description of him by others saying, he`s a media attention seeker, he likes to have the publicity. You saw me kind of hesitate, I almost said something else. But he likes to have the attention.
JORDAN: He`s a media whore.
CLARK: When the prosecution doesn`t call something like that, someone who comes forward a million times and keeps calling and saying, call me, call me, call me, please put me on, and we don`t, they get frustrated and then they go to the defense and find something the defense can use. Eventually, they find their way in.
JORDAN: By his body language, he`s being defiant. He`s holding his head in his hands like, why don`t you like me? I could be on your team if you had answered my phone calls.
So, he`s very ego driven, attention seeking. He`s being disrespectful to the prosecutor.
And in my defense work, I see self jurors, but I also see self- witnesses. Some people inject themselves into a case because they want to feel important.
PINSKY: One thing I`m seeing is something you don`t expect to see on the witness stand, which is glee. He seems to be gleeful about what`s going on here, and the glee is about the attention being directed towards him and not the gravity of a murder trial, which is really kind of story.
So, Laura, there you go. I didn`t know we were going to get such an elaborate answer. It`s kind I feel like I was on to something.
Let`s go to a call here. Alicia in California, do you have a comment for us? I`m going to go to Alicia first. Alicia, are you there?
ALICIA, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew.
ALICIA: I don`t think that Jodi is a battered woman. I think that we think of a battered woman as someone who has physical, you know, something you can see. I do think that, you know, she went along with it to a point thinking that somehow she was going to turn it around, because there`s always emotion when there`s physical contact, always. It goes hand in hand. Most females will attach somehow, and I think that`s what she`s doing now.
BARON: Alicia, is it almost -- are you conflicted because as a woman you want to support another woman, especially if she`s saying she`s getting abused, and at the same time, we`re looking at a massive liar. It`s very difficult to digest.
ALICIA: Yes. I think men are. I don`t think as a woman we can understand a male`s brain.
PINSKY: Let me -- let me ring in that probably true, but this is, after all, a murder trial.
Casey, I`m going to go to you since you do this kind of profiling. Is there a new category -- possibly they`re going to try to investigate here. Maybe new category isn`t the right language, but maybe something other than the physical domestic violence victim we see these days, something of a psychological nature where her liabilities, which are clearly substantial, were somehow played upon by this guy so he could get sex.
JORDAN: Yes. And we see -- let`s get away from the word battered and just consider abuse and its spectrum. The bottom line is there are women who are psychologically and emotionally, as well as physically or sexually, controlled by men, especially those cobra men. Not the pit bulls if you know your true typologies of batterers. They are the kind who psychologically tear down a woman`s self-esteem and make her a psychological and emotional slave to him so that she doesn`t have an identity outside of him.
But we have nothing of this with Jodi Arias. He breaks up with her. He pushes her away time after time. She moves away but she comes back. She goes to Los Angeles, she calls him up, basically for a booty call and says, I`m coming over to your house, and she takes a knife and a gun and already has her alibi worked out.
This isn`t going to work. There`s just nowhere on the abuse spectrum that we have a case that even remotely approaches this in terms of mind control. It`s pure denial on her part.
BARON: She really -- she really does look like the manipulator in this. I mean, she goes over, she has sex with him, she takes some sexy photos and then, it`s bam.
Drew, I want to know from you, what do you think her state of mind is when she`s being intimate with him? How does someone go from such an intimate phase to such a monster?
PINSKY: Yes, that to me -- you know, sometimes when there`s extreme alterations of somebody`s brain state, behavior state, psychiatric condition, for us to use our rational brains to try to understand is almost impossible. I can`t understand that shift.
I can understand that she`s a stalker, that she planned this, she was raged, as Casey has been saying, completely sinister ultimately in how she carried this out. But how she goes from the intimacy to the violence, that`s too much for me to get my head around.
Listen, next up, we`re going to talk again about -- well, here`s what we`re going to do. We`re going to talk about Casey Anthony and her bankruptcy. I`m going to show you what she has in her worldly possessions.
And later, two families killed, two teenage suspects.
We`re also going to talk about what is happening to kids and bribing these kids to become horrible murderers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: I made a little reach to find out candidly speaking if she was wearing thong panties or not. So, when she realized that she was, I made a little joke and I said, that`s not magic underwear. And she said, but there`s magic in them. And so, I thought, OK, this is fun. She`s going to be fun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, there you go. Back with my co-host all this week, Laura Baron, and that was Abe Abdelhadi who appeared on this show exclusive to talk about having dated Jodi Arias and her magic panties.
Abe says Jodi never said a word to him about Travis having abused her in any way. In fact, she only talked about him in the most glorious terms.
Jose, you have experience with a client that changes the story a little bit. What are your thoughts on Jodi?
BAEZ: Well, I think she`s got a long road ahead, but we`ve yet to hear the defense case. There may be some shockers out there that we just don`t know about.
With all due respect to my fellow panelists before me, I don`t see how anyone could say she doesn`t fit into the mode of a battered woman when they haven`t even heard the defense case yet or even examined her. So they may be absolutely correct, but until you hear someone and until they`re allowed to put on a proper defense, you have to wait and see. And if I don`t think we learned that lesson with my case, and if I don`t think I taught the pundits a little lesson in that regard, I guess they`ll never learn.
PINSKY: All right. Listen, I want to go to a call. I think it`s Bootsy? Is that the name? Buzzi in Connecticut?
BUZZI, CALLER FROM CONNECTICUT: Yes, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Buzzy. What`s going on?
BUZZI: I`m wondering, where are Jodi`s documentations? Where is her journal? Where are her pictures?
I`m 71, but I was battered for 20 years, and even after we were divorced for three years, he came over here and stalked me with his work truck and lifetime disabled me. Then he came over in 2010 and hit me with his truck three times.
The doctor said he`s a psychotic sociopath with psychopathic (ph) tendencies. I had no idea what that meant and they said he had no conscience. Where --
PINSKY: Buzzi, you`re making an association between your husband, who was a violent abuser, and Jodi.
BUZZI: And stalker.
PINSKY: Jodi was a stalker, too. And, Jose, we --
BUZZI: You don`t see any emotion from her. I have pictures in me that I had my friend take, she goes, are you sure you want me to take these? You can see the emotion in my eyes. I don`t have to be covered up. Nobody could see the bruises but you can tell me in my eyes that you know - -
PINSKY: So, Casey, I think what Jose was referring to was evidence, and what Buzzi is saying is that most women would have some history of evidence available to sort of point to. Maybe we`ll hear in court, who knows? But that`s what you`re looking for, right, Casey?
JORDAN: Yes, absolutely. And, of course, the defense has pretty much already laid out their plan with their expert testimony, but if there were photographs, if there were journals, as your caller indicates, they would be entered already and we would know about that.
I mean, the bottom line is it`s going to be her word, her claim. It does not help that she changed her story three times. And truly, what my big question is, you asked earlier if we think she`ll take the stand. I think her attorneys may tell her all day long, no, no, no, don`t do it, you`ll think yourself, but I think she is so self-absorbed and vain that she will insist.
I think there is a very good chance she will take the stand because she has self-brainwashed herself into believing she can do this if she just holds onto the role playing and the story that she was abused.
PINSKY: Beth, we have to say goodbye.
Beth, before you do go, do you agree with what Casey just said, that she`s likely to take the stand on her own demand?
KARAS: You know, I don`t know if she`ll go against her attorney`s advice, but I do believe she wants to testify. She did say that a few years ago when she was represented by other attorneys. She told some member of the media she was interview that she intended to testify.
No question this woman likes to talk, and I really don`t se how she can get her story out there without testifying, but I don`t know what`s going to happen.
PINSKY: I`m looking at that footage again, her mirroring precisely her attorney. It`s kind of spooky.
Thank you, Beth.
Next up, Casey Anthony is happy that two of her four lying convictions were reversed. I`ll be interested to hear what Jose thinks about that. Remember, she is bankrupt. We`re going to take a look at that as well.
And afterwards, a teenager is saying it`s a movie that caused him to kill his mom and sister. We`ll speak with -- we`ve heard it`s a movie for one kid, and we heard that it`s a video game for another. We`re going to speak to the aunt and uncle of one of these kids exclusively later on.
Be right back.
PINSKY: Welcome back. Co-host this week, Laura Baron, also back with our exclusive interview with, Jose Diaz. OK. Jose, people were shocked by this portion of your opening statement in the Casey Anthony murder trial. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CLAIMED CASEY WAS ABUSED BY HER FATHER: This child, at eight years old, learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: is this -- was that part of your sort of go to the math strategy? And is that what Jodi should be using as well?
BAEZ: Well, I don`t know if you can characterize it as go to the math, but I will tell you this. When you`re defending someone for their life, and when you`re defending your life, the gloves come off, and you have to bring it. And you have to basically not hold anything back, and if there are -- if you have ammunition, now is the time to use it.
So, I think in the defense case with Jodi Arias, you may see a lot of that. And, you may se and hear specific types of evidence that just haven`t come out yet. The defense doesn`t have a burden, but from what I`m hearing, they may have one or two things that basically have not been made public yet, so, we`ll just wait and see.
It could be nothing or it could actually be something, but what bothers me greatly is that a lot of people are already placing some type of a burden on women who are victims of abuse. Now, whether Jodi Arias is one or not, that remains to be seen, however, as we were talking about in the last segment, to kind of start placing requirements -- to place a requirement or a burden on a woman to document the times she`s been abused, I think that`s asking a bit much.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: I don`t know that -- Jose, just let me speak as a woman, but let -- let me just speak as a woman to say that it is very, very difficult to hear a woman constantly lying about what happened, and then at the end of the day, come out with, by the way, I was abused. We all know women that were violently abused.
And it is almost coming as a gut response, as a protection to our sisters. It just sounds like another excuse, which actually leads me to, as a defense attorney, do you think it`s easier for them because they`re dealing with a dead guy? I mean, he can`t defend himself. Does it make their case a little bit easier that they can say he`s an abuser?
BAEZ: Well, I wouldn`t say it`s easier, because you have the force of the state or the government fighting against you. It`s not necessarily easier. And I can understand that. I agree with you that there are a lot of women who probably are legitimate victims of some type of abuse that might be angered by looking at this situation.
But until we`ve heard her full say, how can we go off and say, well, she didn`t document it, there`s no witnesses. These things don`t happen in public. They happen in private situations. And many of these women are thinking about surviving, not necessarily documenting it.
PINSKY: Everybody, I got to stop. Here`s the deal.
PINSKY: If anybody is involved in an abusive situation and they think there`s a possibility that the abusive circumstance could end like this, the number one, two, three, four, and five things you have to do is get away from your abuser. That`s what everyone needs to learn from this situation if we think that has anything to do with it.
If Casey and I are intervening, Casey meaning my guest here, not Casey Anthony -- questions for you, Jose, about that in a second. If we were intervening, the first five priorities are get those two people apart. That`s what everyone needs to think about because yes, horrible things can happen. Let`s learn that.
Now, Jose. Bankruptcy. Casey claims -- Casey Anthony now claims she has just over $1,000. Here`s the quick breakdown. I think we got a full screen of this out, $474, $200 in furniture, family photos, DVDs, 25 bucks or 25 of them -- clothing and accessories, $100, watch and jewelry, $200, cameras and bike, 60 bucks.
So, Jose, that`s it. And I think she owes something like $700,000. Where do you fall in on this story?
BAEZ: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, you know I love you and Laura more so, but I don`t have --
BARON: Thank you.
BAEZ: -- I don`t have a waiver from Casey to discuss her finances. You know, just because I represented her doesn`t give me carte blanche to talk about her every time she`s in the news. She gave me a certain waiver at discussing her case, but as it relates to this stuff, I unfortunately, I really can`t discuss it because I`m not at liberty to.
PINSKY: OK. So, Jose, I learn one thing. You love -- wait, wait, wait. I learn one thing. You love Laura more than me. That`s all I just learned.
PINSKY: Yes, right. Well, that`s OK.
BAEZ: And you won`t hear that from me very often.
PINSKY: We know (ph) guilty from you. We`ll hear repeatedly how much you love Laura more than me, but that`s OK. I`m running out of time her. Marcia, I`ve got about less than a minute left. Answer this. It seems like defense attorneys take step on when there`s not likely to be reimbursement. Explain that to the average viewer.
MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTED OJ SIMPSON: Well, you know, in all these high-profile cases, there is something to be gained besides money. And, well, you have Casey Anthony was obviously not a wealthy girl and the defense of her case was going to take a great deal of time and energy. And a defense attorney looks at that and says, look, I`m going to get a lot of publicity.
I`m going to get a huge client list as a result of the exposure. And so, if she can`t really pay the full rate, I`m compensated in that way. It does build up a practice enormously, and it has done for many, many lawyers.
PINSKY: Got it. We got to go now. Thank you, Marcia. Thank you. I got to go, guys. Thank you, Jose Baez. The book, Jose`s book is "Presumed Guilty." And Jose, of course, you love Laura more than me. I completely understand that. Casey Jordan, thank you.
BARON: Well, I read his whole book. Did you, Drew?
PINSKY: I got to go. I got to go.
What drove a young man who allegedly killed his parents and siblings? We`ll speak to his aunt exclusively and his uncle.
And later, another accused teen killer who made a chilling 911 call just after the slayings. We`ll get into that. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): A community buries three young children and their parents, all gunned down by their teenage son. I`m speaking to his uncle.
Plus, police released a confession for another family murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just killed my mom and my sister.
PINSKY: This young suspect reportedly says a movie inspired him.
ERIC GRIEGO, UNCLE OF TEEN ACCUSED OF KILLING FAMILY: This poor, incredibly troubled 15-year-old is being essentially publicly crucified and made out to be something and maybe because we don`t want to accept the fact that this could happen anywhere, that we all missed the signs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes. Eric, that was a very profound statement. My co-host this week, relationship coach, Laura Baron. It`s pretty intense, the story. Don`t you agree, Laura?
BARON: Yes. I guess, it`s true. I mean, you see all of these stories about kids that are seemingly living normal lives that just flip. So what is that, Drew?
PINSKY: Well, the story is, just so people at home are watching, catching up with us, the clip you just saw was the young man`s uncle, Eric Griego, this is the New Mexico teen accused of gunning down parents and three siblings. Eric is going to join us again tonight with his sister, the young man`s aunt, for an exclusive interview.
And Laura, let me just answer your question before I get to our correspondent. And that is exactly the question people have to ask myself. It doesn`t -- everyone has to ask them themselves and I need to answer. These things don`t just happen. People have depression that becomes so severe they become psychotic.
They can have a first manifestation of a manic episode. Again, something disconnects them from reality --
PINSKY: A brain tumor. Go ahead, Laura.
BARON: What is the first emancipation of-- whatever you said, can you say it not in Spanish?
PINSKY: That depression can get so severe that, literally, you`re not in your right mind. The mania can make you not in your right mind. Schizophrenia like -- I want to direct your attention to Aurora, Colorado. I think we`re going to find out that was schizophrenia. The issues there are why don`t we identify these things properly and how do we get them to proper treatment before something horrible happens.
Following this case, Kyung -- right. Kyung, are you there? Kyung Lah. She`s been a correspondent from CNN following, and what is the latest?
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we can tell you is just that the community is trying to figure out exactly that. They don`t really know why. What they can tell you is that they were able to talk to the investigators. They were able to talk to the boy on this day.
And what investigators are releasing publicly is that they feel that there is no dispute. That the boy did confess to them shooting his mother, his brother, his nine-year-old brother, then his two-year-old and five- year-old sister who were sleeping right across the hall, and then, he waited for his father and then gunned down his father with his own AR-15.
He drove his family van to the church, loading -- reloading the weapon, filling the vehicle with ammunition, but he left the ammunition and the gun inside the family van and then he went inside the church. And it`s there that the church finally did corral him after information came from the boy`s girlfriend`s grandmother -- Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, Kyung. Joining me now is Nehemiah Griego`s uncle, Eric Griego, also joining us for her first interview is his aunt, Regina. I really appreciate you guys being here. Eric, how is the family coping?
ERIC GRIEGO: Well, it`s been a tough week for us. We held the services on Friday and Saturday, and sadly, in addition to taking care of our family, we had to really try to respond to some of the erroneous media and sort of media -- unfortunately, I`ve been trying to correct your colleague`s story there, and she`s got some of the facts so we can talk about that off camera.
But, it`s been tough, and we`re just -- we`re trying to understand it. As you said, Drew, how could something like this happen to what we thought was a normal, you know, kid who is just doing what normal kids do and something went wrong. And we`re learning a lot about brain development. We`re learning a lot about sort of these mental health issues that nobody seemed to detect in this case.
And so, we hope that we can try to present a more balanced view of what could happen other than just sort of all the sensational parts that the media seems to be keep focusing on.
REGINA GRIEGO, AUNT OF TEEN ACCUSED OF KILLING FAMILY: -- is that in these homicide cases, the young -- there`s often not any kind of signs from children that kill their parents.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, Regina, I want to hear more about that. We`re going to get much more into this when we get back. We`re going to take a break right now.
PINSKY: My co-host this week, relationship coach, Laura Baron. Back with me now is Nehemiah Griego`s uncle, Eric Griego, and joining us for her first interview, his aunt, Regina. Nehemiah is accused or having, apparently, he`s said that he has killed his parents and siblings. So, Regina, you were starting to talk about how scant the evidence can be for families when tragedies like this happen.
REGINA GRIEGO: Right. We`ve recently read articles on the fact that this an anomaly, statistical anomaly where they kill their parents and that when they do that, a lot of the children do not exhibit any kind of signs. We`re just trying to understand, you know, the fact that he`s a young 15- year-old and what goes on in the brain?
PINSKY: Well, again, if it is depression that becomes so severe -- by the way, you have to rule out things like brain tumors and brain infection, things like that, and other medical problems. But if it is, say, a depression that just got so severe, you know, part of this way of conceiving of this, and when kids do this kind of thing, is death by -- suicide by mass murder.
They literally are wanting to go out and have a big shoot-up and take on the cops. It`s really a sort of suicidal gesture. Why the parents necessarily get hit in the crossfire, I`m not sure anybody knows specifically. But they`re not in their right mind.
And Eric, that`s what you were telling us last time, which was that this is absolutely completely uncharacteristic of the young man you knew.
ERIC GRIEGO: Yes. I mean, you know, he spent the holidays with us, all of us as a family, as we always do. We`re very close family. And, you know, we didn`t see him every day, but when we saw him, he was clearly getting into those sort of teen sort of behaviors of being a little more withdrawn and so on.
But, you know, we`ve known this kid since he was born. He spent holidays with us and we spent a lot of time as a family together, and we never knew of any behavior where he was violent or you know, just -- and, you know, more importantly, he spent most of his time in this cavalry community.
And we`ve heard from so many of his friends and family and pastor that he was this -- you know, he spent time there doing music, playing basketball, skateboarding, all the things you expect a kid to do. Nobody ever said, you know, yes, we thought something was going on with him. It just came -- comes out of left field.
And we`re hoping this is a learning moment for everybody. How can this possibly happen? And rather than focus again on what -- let`s focus in on, you know, some the details of the crime, it`s like what is happening societally to our families and to our young people when this kind of thing is happening and nobody is picking up on it.
PINSKY: Before anybody else talks, I got to say, the one thing I would urge viewers is that if you have a young person or anybody in your family that you worried about, please get help. There are armies of professionals out there. I understand our health care system is broken. It`s difficult for some people.
But there`s always community health services if you don`t have specific access. Laura, what do you want to say?
BARON: Well, Regina and Eric, you know, I just want to let you know when Drew and I were talking about this before we came on, it was -- we are so sad for your family. We can only imagine what this must be going through, the media storm of this and then also the devastation of your family. I hope that you understand that what we`re really trying to get at is, what could be those small signals that we could all learn from about what`s going on in our youth today?
Those small signals. I`m sure he was a great kid and a great family member. But clearly, there was something going on. Are there smaller things you might be able to identify just to help the rest of us kind of understand in our own homes?
REGINA GRIEGO: Well, it`s interesting because I raised three children of my own, and my son was a little bit -- he`d get morbid sometimes to the point where I`d go in and read his journals just to see what was going on in his life to understand. Obviously, I did not live with Nehemiah.
But, I didn`t see anything so dramatically different about Nehemiah than I did to my own children. So, I don`t understand -- I guess, perhaps, if his mother and father read his journals, or I don`t know, looked at his phone, I mean, is that fair game to take their phone from them and see what kind of texting he`s doing and things.
PINSKY: Let`s think about it. It could have -- it`s a potentially life-saving move, so I say yes. Thank you, Regina and Eric. I thank you so much for being here. I`ve got to take a break. Next up -- yes.
And next up, we`re going to take a look at another scandal in Los Angeles, the unified school district, something we`re going to talk about tomorrow.
PINSKY: Laura, thanks for helping me out tonight and helping me with those great questions. We were blessed with great guests tonight and great stories. And so, we are almost completely out of time. Tomorrow, it`s been a year since the scandal rock L.A. school district, and now, there`s another one, new arrest.
We`re going to get into that tomorrow. I want to thank all my guests. It`s going to be -- it`s a very hot story out here in Los Angeles and we`re getting insights from on the ground out there in that community. Again, Laura, thank you and thank you to all my guest. And a reminder that "Nancy Grace" is beginning right now.