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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT

Hostage Drama in Alabama; Giffords Testifies on Guns; Tom Arnold Talks Guns; A Rare Interview with Joe Jackson

Aired January 30, 2013 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Tonight breaking news on that desperate standoff in Alabama. A kindergarten held hostage in a backyard bunker. I'll talk exclusively to the suspect's neighbors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has been like a time bomb waiting to go off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Plus the NRA and gun victims face-to-face.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GABBY GIFFORDS, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE, WOUNDED IN TUCSON SHOOTING: We must do something.

CAPT. MARK KELLY, GABBY GIFFORDS' HUSBAND: We're both gun owners and we take that right and the responsibilities that come with it very seriously.

WAYNE LAPIERRE, NRA EXECUTIVE V.P. AND CEO: Law-abiding gun owners will not accept blame for the acts of violent or deranged criminals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is only one thing that will stop the next copycat killer and that is lawful armed self-defense in the schools.

CHIEF JAMES JOHNSON, BALTIMORE POLICE: We urgently need Congress to address the rising epidemic of gun violence in this nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: I'll talk to that police chief.

And my exclusive interview with Michael Jackson's father. Joe Jackson speaks out as he rarely has before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S FATHER: They taught (ph) him how it's used. They couldn't -- apparently get to him like they should. (END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.

Good evening. We'll get to the gun debate in just a few moments. But -- including Gabby Giffords' dramatic appearance in the Capitol Hill today, but while she's speaking, another daily reminder of why this is so important. One person dead, two wounded, a shooter on the run after an attack in a Phoenix office building. Police say the attack did not appear to be random.

But we begin with breaking news on another situation. The hostage crisis in Alabama. Negotiators are desperately trying to free a 6-year-old held hostage in a backyard bunker since the suspect allegedly took him off his school bus yesterday after shooting and killing the driver.

Listen to this exclusive video of police negotiators talking to the gunman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jim Dykes, you need to exit your shelter. Lay down any weapon you have and approach the police. This isn't goo to end itself. You need to come out and talk to us. We are not going away. Please exit your shelter and come back out, lower any weapon you have. Place it on the ground and come and speak with law enforcement. We are not going away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Joining me now are two of the suspect's neighbors, Ronda Wilbur and Casper McNich.

Welcome to you both.

Let's start with you, if I may, Ronda Wilbur. You know this gentleman, Jimmy Lee Dykes. He's 65, I believe. And you've had concerns about him for some considerable time. Tell me why.

CASPER MCNICH, NEIGHBOR OF JIMMY LEE DYKES: Well, he's just strange. I sold him the property about two years ago. And I'd cleaned it out very nice. Trimmed all the trees and treated him. After he moved on the property and he put up a barbed wire fence, start cutting down all the trees like he had a clear view of anything so they wouldn't attack or something. And so really I pretty much just avoided him. Heard a lot of rumors and a lot of things that went on, but like I say, I basically just tried to avoid him.

MORGAN: Rhonda, you had an incident involving your dog, I believe, which was pretty terrifying.

RONDA WILBUR, NEIGHBOR OF JIMMY LEE DYKES: Yes, sir. I live directly across from the -- from him. And as a matter of fact, that video that was aired, that was taken by my son. In my front yard. And the -- he made it very clear as soon as he moved in that any animals or people that came onto his property would be killed. And he took -- one of my dogs went across the middle part of the road, and it was a 125-pound dog. He took a led pipe and he beat the dog until the dog was so badly injured that it died several days later.

But that wasn't enough for him. He felt the need to stop my husband and he bragged to my husband about having beaten our dog to death. And said if that was what was going to happen to anyone or anything that came onto his land.

I got the animal cruelly people out there. They were wonderful. They were out there within 24 hours. And I was hoping that would settle him down but it didn't. He just got increasingly more bizarre. He spent most of the last couple of years moving concrete blocks around and digging. Constantly digging. And moving dirt.

MORGAN: And Casper, did you see him with firearms or were you aware of him having firearms?

MCNICH: I was told that he had firearms and I know of a party that he had shot at. Also the day of the incident I was going uptown and I came by and I saw the school bus parked there and I saw him climbing over the fence. But I really didn't pay that much attention whether he had a gun because the school bus wasn't even on his property. And I -- by the sounds of it, I didn't get even to the middle of the city before he shot the bus driver.

(CROSSTALK)

WILBUR: And as far as him --

MORGAN: And Ronda, were you aware -- Ronda, that he -- sorry, after you, Ronda.

WILBUR: Go ahead. No, as far as him having weapons, he had two weapons that he always carried with him. He always would have a rifle, sitting near him and a shovel. He almost decapitated one of my dogs with his shovel. He would -- I work late, I would come home at almost midnight, and he would be patrolling his fence line with his rifle and a flashlight. And he would shoot at anything that moved. Any sort of -- even a rabbit, a squirrel, a bird, there was not to be anything inside his fence.

And I was very concerned because when he shot, it was always towards my house. There was even incident where I was outside with my 6-year-old granddaughter and he saw that I was talking to a neighbor and he brought over a deer stand and put it over the fence, climbed up on it and sat with his rifle in his lap just watching my granddaughter and I. And so I grabbed my granddaughter and we went inside and stayed inside.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: I mean, from all you've -- if all you've been telling me -- I mean, Casper, I was going to ask you, I mean, from what you've both been telling me, a pretty scary individual. From what we hear he was very anti-American, very anti-government. Very insular, building this extraordinary bunker. He had arms and so on. Were you therefore surprised or shocked when you heard what had happened?

MCNICH: No, I wasn't.

WILBUR: No. Not at all.

MCNICH: See, just a little over a month ago he shot at a friend of mine with his wife, baby and mother in the truck. And the -- Dale County sheriff came out and the man told him he didn't have a gun. And the sheriffs didn't even look for the gun. If they had looked for the gun, they'd have found it. At least now it wouldn't have taken place.

WILBUR: And that's the whole thing.

MORGAN: Well --

WILBUR: Is that this man has been an accident waiting to happen. He has been a ticking time bomb. But we live in an unincorporated area. And unless you have enough witnesses there is nothing that you can do.

MORGAN: Well, Ronda Wilbur and Casper McNich, thank you both very much for providing so much fascinating details about this. And I really appreciate you for coming on the show.

MCNICH: You are quite welcome.

WILBUR: Thank you.

MORGAN: Now I want to turn to today's Senate gun hearing. The NRA, gun control advocates, victims and police all in one room, addressing one of the biggest issues in America today. The most dramatic moment, powerful testimony from former Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. And joining me now is Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, a good friend of Gabby Giffords. Also Chief James Johnson of the Baltimore County Police and chair of the National Law Enforcement Partnership to Prevent Gun Violence.

Welcome to you both.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz, a very, very powerful moment, I thought. Though not just Gabby, but also her husband Mark Kelly. Gabby didn't speak for very long, but what she said carried huge resonance. Basically a clarion call to Washington's politicians. This is the time you must act.

What was your reaction watching your good friend?

REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, CHAIR, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, it was pride, and you know just my heart was full. She spoke with conviction and she was resolute and determined to use the ability that she has in her strong and clear voice. Even with the brevity of her remarks to get across how imperative it is, the moral imperative that we have now to be courageous and be bold and do this for America's children.

MORGAN: Let's see a clip here from Gabby on the floor today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIFFORDS: We must do something. It will be hard but the time is now. You must act. Be bold, be courageous. Americans are counting on you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: It really was incredibly impressive and I thought very effective because she made the point that she can't really speak that well, and it reminded everyone --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Right.

MORGAN: -- of the hideous injury she sustained. In terms of what she wants to achieve here, again, the powerful aspect to me is that both her and Mark Kelly are gun owners, they both used to fire at an NRA range and so on.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That's right.

MORGAN: They just believe that enough is enough. And action must be taken.

With all your political acumen, Debbie, how do you see this debate now playing out? Is there any realistic chance of, say, a renewal of the assault weapons ban?

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I think we have a realistic chance at getting some common sense reforms passed. I mean, I'm a glass is half full person. But I'll tell you why I'm optimistic, it's not just Gabby's strong voice and Mark's strong voice today. But for example, I had a roundtable here in South Florida today with about 10 gun rights supporters, NRA members, avid hunters, people who believe strongly in the Second Amendment.

And to a person, they were supportive of universal background checks, of making sure that we deal with this in a comprehensive commonsense way. They said look, the NRA doesn't speak for them. That -- I mean, in my opinion and in the opinion of so many, the NRA proved again today that they are essentially a fringe group now. And that what we need to do is have Americans from all across the spectrum on this issue come together and really give the moral authority and the courage that Gabby tried to convey today to legislators in the House and the Senate.

So that we can come together and -- you know, we're not going to be able to -- Rome wasn't built in a day. We're not going to be able to do everything that anyone could possibly dream of so solve this gun violence problem. But there are some basic things that we can do. Not the least of which is making sure that every transaction -- of a sale of a gun has a background check attached to it. That we keep the --

(CROSSTALK) MORGAN: Yes, but, I mean, it seems to me --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Those weapons out of the hands of people who don't belong.

MORGAN: Right. It seems to be completely obvious that should happen.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I'm sorry.

MORGAN: Chief Johnson --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Yes.

MORGAN: You're in charge of the police in Baltimore and it's clearly a pretty violent city. A lot of gun violence to deal with. What was your take? You were up there today. What was your takeaway from the day and the sort of level of optimism you may feel about actual action being done?

JOHNSON: Well, my jurisdiction surrounds the entire city of Baltimore and as you stated the Baltimore has -- the city itself has seen significant, you know, gun violence as well as other cities across America.

I'm very optimistic today. I thought today was a very long hearing. Some four hours where the National Law Enforcement to Prevent Gun Violence was able to get across to the room that we're looking for universal background checks. Nearly 40 percent of gun transfers are done outside of that background check process. We also are looking for -- on magazines. No more than 10 rounds. And certainly a ban on assault weapons. I think these and other measured taken, frankly, and the president's plan will make our nation a safer place.

MORGAN: Yes. I want you a bit of sound actually that we've unearthed of Wayne LaPierre, the head of the NRA, who has been very vocal and he was again today that he doesn't believe in mandatory background checks and that's not what he said in 1999. Let's watch this clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WAYNE LAPIERRE, NRA EXECUTIVE V.P. AND CEO: We think it's reasonable to provide mandatory instant criminal background checks for every sale at every gun show. No loopholes anywhere for anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: So there we have it. In Wayne LaPierre's own words, the man is a shameless hypocrite. I've asked him to come on the show many times. He always refuses, but there he is in 1999 absolutely endorsing a mandatory background check on all gun trades. Now he endorses the complete opposite. And it's hard to escape, I would argue, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the conclusion that he changed his mind because he realized that that would impact on gun sales and gun profits.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That's right. That's right. They -- the NRA is nothing more now than a voice for gun manufacturers. They are not a voice for sensible solutions. They're not a voice of reason. They're not even the voice of the majority of gun owners on how to deal with gun -- reducing gun violence.

And, you know, at the end of the day, we have to make sure that we do things like what Gabby and Mark are proposing, through their organization, Americans for Responsible Solutions. We can solve this problem, I agree with the chief, we absolutely have the opportunity here. This is going to need to come from the grassroots, though, Piers. I mean, in order to give the members from tough congressional districts where the NRA is very powerful the courage of their convictions and the ability to cast the right vote, we're going to need Americans from all across this country to let their legislators now that we -- they want us to do something.

MORGAN: Yes.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: And to do something now.

MORGAN: That is true. We also need politicians with guns who are going to stand up and say, I'm going to have my voice counted.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: It's true. Absolutely.

MORGAN: And I'm going to act on my conscience and not just on the chance I may lose my seat.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Chief Johnson, thank you both very much indeed.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Thank you.

MORGAN: Coming next, Tom Arnold and later my exclusive interview with Michael Jackson's father. A very rare encounter with emotional Joe Jackson's past. It's a fascinating interview. That's coming up later on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will defend our people and uphold our values through strength of arms and rule of law.

TOM ARNOLD, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: We'll always fight for what we believe in so you can hold on to your guns and by guns, I'm being vague, so as to suggest arm wrestling might be an interesting alternative.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Funny take on the president's address from actor/comedian Tom Arnold, the host of CMT's "My Big Red Neck Vacation." Tom knows jokes, but there's a serious side of him when talking about issues facing America.

Tom, welcome back.

ARNOLD: Well, it's good to be back, Piers. You know, it's funny, I tweeted that I was coming on the show, and you have a lot of supporters.

MORGAN: Angry people --

ARNOLD: Oh my gosh, I've never seen anything like it. They're fired up.

MORGAN: It's funny and also because you do this show about rednecks.

ARNOLD: Yes.

MORGAN: You portrayed them on a very positive light, and people sort of assume I've got some issue with rednecks or people in Texas --

ARNOLD: Rural people is what they say.

MORGAN: Right.

ARNOLD: Yes.

MORGAN: And to me it's ridiculous. I toured all around America many times on "America's Got Talent", went to many states which was supposedly full of people that, you know, supposed to disagree with me about this. I can totally respect people's views. Here's where it was fascinating to talk to you because you use guns. You grew up around guns.

ARNOLD: Yes. I grew up in Ottumwa, Iowa. Everybody, we hunted, we did -- you know, we did that. That's what we did. It's part of our culture.

MORGAN: And because of the show you spend a lot of time, as I say, with -- you know, with rednecks and we'll use that phrase because it's in the title of the show.

ARNOLD: They love the term.

MORGAN: Right. Where is the compromise here? Where do you see a sensible resolution? Just because as you rightly said, the problem is positions on the left and right and extremity.

ARNOLD: Right.

MORGAN: Are so extreme, they tend to shout the loudest and dominate the debate. ARNOLD: That's right. It's pretty simple for me. You know, these -- when I hunt, you know, I grew up hunting with my grandpa, it's one of the best experiences of my life. You know, I loved it. But we didn't see anybody out there with military-style assault weapons. And that's where you draw the line because those guys -- you know, if I was out hunting tomorrow and a guy -- some kid shows up with one of those guns, we'd freak out.

We'd be, you know, very upset. That's not part of sport or part of the culture. You know, they're posers. If they want to be in the military join the freaking military. You can't dress up like a military guy and put on a Purple Heart and walk around, and act like you're in the military. And those guys -- most rednecks think those guys are idiots. And that's a fact and when people lump the redneck all together, they do like to shoot, they do like sports, they do have guns, which they have the right to, but it's those crazy people that need to blow up meat and that's all those guns do is explode meat. They're not for hunting. There's not for any other purpose.

MORGAN: You see, I believe -- actually I believe strongly that in places like Texas, Alabama, or other paces, people assume that would all completely disagree with me or the president or whoever it is who's trying to bring in some form of something to do with the gun (INAUDIBLE). I'm not sure that's true.

ARNOLD: The rednecks on our "Big Redneck Vacation," they're an extended family of 14 and they have kids. And when you have kids, you think about it differently.

MORGAN: Yes.

ARNOLD: You know, it's not all -- you know, crazy time. And so --

MORGAN: You're about to be a father for --

ARNOLD: I am. I am.

MORGAN: But -- that must have got you thinking about parenthood and being a father and all that comes with it. And it does change everything, I think, in terms of perspective.

ARNOLD: Right. Well, you're more cavalier when you don't have kids.

MORGAN: Yes.

ARNOLD: You know, you're like whatever, I'm going to teach my kids, I'm going to do this, I'm going to teach him how to drink and shoot and whatever. And then if you're having a kid, it's a little different. You're very -- guns are very dangerous. I knew that growing up. I'm the oldest of seven kids. The minute my dad left the house, we knew we had a semiautomatic rifle, and we knew he had a cartridge. And me and my four brothers would start searching and try to break in. That was our goal. And little boys have that, from the time they're born, they like cars and they like guns. We wanted to get that thing and put it together. And one day we did. And we took it out on the street. People could have gotten hurt. My dad came home and he beat our butts. And you know, but boys can't help themselves and bad things happen if you have stuff around.

MORGAN: What strikes me as odd is that people think as the kind of gun grabbing scenario.

ARNOLD: Right.

MORGAN: But nobody is actually asking to remove anybody's guns.

ARNOLD: Right.

MORGAN: Nobody is talking about confiscation.

ARNOLD: Right.

MORGAN: The president doesn't want it. I haven't said that. Nobody is talking about I want your guns.

ARNOLD: But the crazy --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Right. Right. But what -- the situation is just trying to limit the number of these military-style weapons in circulation.

ARNOLD: Right.

MORGAN: Under the proposal put forth by Senator Feinstein, for example, there would still be 2,200 different types of guns legally available to Americans. That has to be enough, doesn't it?

ARNOLD: Right.

MORGAN: To sate the shooters, the hunters, those doing it for sport.

ARNOLD: Right. Well, here's the problem, too. The NRA -- and they are a lobbying group and people -- they go up to the NRA, they look out for me. No, they sell guns and they do a great job. And that Wayne LaPierre guy. He's doing a great job of trying to scare people into buying more guns.

MORGAN: And it worked.

ARNOLD: But you've got to remember, Charlton Heston, when he said that, pry it out on my cold dead hands, he was holding up an antique rifle. He wasn't holding up an AK-47 or AR-15 or whatever they are. And it's ridiculous. And now they aim it towards kids. Little kids. I always wanted to get guns for Christmas. You know, but I was 6 years, I was little, and if I had seen those kind of guns potentially, any young boy is going to want, hey, that would be awesome.

And now they're aiming their -- they're aiming for kids. They -- like they used to with BB guns with those kids.

MORGAN: Yes. Because they're target of them.

ARNOLD: Yes.

MORGAN: And they're making millions, billions of dollars. What's the way through -- it seems to me, the only way through is for the gun owners of America, the respectable one, to come together and say, we get it, enough is enough, you need the background checks, you need the mental health investment, you need the assault weapons removed, you need all these things to come together.

And you know what, if it saves one mass shooting from happening and saves a bunch of kids' lives it's worth it for America.

ARNOLD: And it'll save them shooting themselves because -- at gun shows they accidentally shoot themselves all the time. These guns are dangerous. I think it's a -- I think those are very reasonable. Some people that were just going to have to take their guns away from them. The assault weapons. When it's banned, you just can't have a go-around with those. You'll have to get some other -- you'll have to figure it out. But most people with any intelligence say, OK, this is -- well, you know, they used to have M-80s when I was a kid. They're like quarter of sixth of dynamite. And that's what we use for firecrackers.

And then they outlawed them because we were blowing up our hands. Now if you take a bunch of regular firecrackers and tape them together, you'll probably blow up your fingers still. But it was common sense. And that's what it is with these guns.

MORGAN: Yes.

ARNOLD: It's common sense.

MORGAN: It totally is. Tom Arnold, great to see you.

(CROSSTALK)

The third season of "My Big Redneck Vacation" is Saturdays on CMT.

ARNOLD: It's a great show. Great show. Fun.

MORGAN: Me, you and the rednecks will sort this out.

ARNOLD: Yes, absolutely, buddy. Thank you, man.

MORGAN: Good to see you.

Coming next my exclusive and emotional interview with Michael Jackson's father, Joe Jackson. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: It's hard to imagine but it's been three and a half years since Michael Jackson died. Millions of people around the world loved him. But of course no one knew him quite the way than his own father did.

Joseph Jackson rarely gives interviews, but he joins me tonight exclusively, along with Deiter Wiesner, his former manager.

Welcome to you both.

JOSEPH W. JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S FATHER: Thank you.

MORGAN: So, Joe, I've interviewed almost every single member of your family, your wife, your sons, your daughters, Michael. And finally I get to interview the boss.

JACKSON: Yes, the boss. Yes.

MORGAN: The boss.

JACKSON: That's great. Yes. I'm glad to have you interviewing me, because I'm going all over the world. I want all over the world to know me.

MORGAN: Everyone says the same thing about you. Very tough, but you had to be. That you wanted the best for your family and you decided right from the start you were going to be firm, tough when you had to be disciplined and do what it took to give them the lives that many of them have since enjoyed. How do you respond to that?

JACKSON: Well, I had to be like that way because during those times it's hard and you had a lot of games there, you know, in the area where we were living.

MORGAN: This is Gary, Indiana.

JACKSON: Gary, Indiana, and I had to make sure that they didn't get into any type of trouble and things of that sort.

MORGAN: What your children have told me, almost all of them, is that you found it hard, because you were tough with them and disciplined, and wanted to me, you found it hard to be too demonstrative, to tell them too much that you love them. And some of them found that quite difficult to deal with.

JACKSON: Well --

MORGAN: Let me play you an example. I interviewed Janet and she said this. Watch this clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET JACKSON, SINGER: One time I tried to call him dad.

MORGAN: What happened. J. JACKSON: He said no, I'm Joseph. You call me Joseph. I'm Joseph to you. When your father tells you one time, you don't do it again. I always called him Joseph.

MORGAN: Sad, isn't it?

J. JACKSON: Yeah, it is. I wish our relationship was different but I know that he loves me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: So come on, why wouldn't you let your daughter call you dad?

JACKSON: Well you had all those kids running around hollering around and hollering, dad, dad, dad, you know, and it gets to be -- it sounds kind of funny to me. But I didn't care too much about what they called me as long as they were able to listen to me and what I had to tell them, you know, in order to make their life successful. This was the main thing.

My kids was brought up in a way so they respect people, and they never was on drugs. They never went to jail, wasn't in no gangs or nothing. They were brought up professionally. And it was nice, yes.

MORGAN: But do you have any regrets that you may have been a little bit too tough on some of them?

JACKSON: Well, I'm glad I was tough, because look what I came out with. I came out with some kids that everybody loved all over the world. And they treated everybody right. You know Michael, he was a nice guy. But the world don't know anything too much about Michael as far as how he was brought up.

But He was brought up -- I made sure that he respected the older people, yes.

MORGAN: Tell me about the young Michael and your relationship with him.

JACKSON: Michael was the type of kid -- you know, he was a good kid and very easy to learn. One thing once and he could really do it just like the person that he listened to doing it. By him being that way, he was able to be Michael Jackson, because he looked good on stage. When he performed, everybody loved the way that he did it because he was that good.

MORGAN: You physically disciplined your kids. Do you parents today are too soft on their children? Do you think there is a lack of respect because of that.

JACKSON: Yes, they are too soft. One of the reasons I say that is because kids now a days are killing their parents, in some cases. And the parents say let's get into this beating thing. There is no such thing as beating a kid. You hit them or punch them for something they did, and they will remember that. They remember it in such a way they won't do it again. That's the way I was.

MORGAN: It is not like that anymore. You know, many people say, well, you know, you can't hit a child. I interviewed your wife Katherine and she said this about you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHERINE JACKSON, WIFE OF JOE JACKSON: I didn't think he was too tough. But back in those days, everybody raises their children the same. If you did something wrong, that was terribly wrong, you got a scolding for it and you also got a licking, as they called it.

But today you can't do that. So Michael looked back at those times and he said he was abused.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: In those days, kids was real bad. And the parents should have made sure what I did, made sure that my kids was good kids, made sure that they understand what I was trying to do. Since Michael got grown and has kids of his own, he understands what I was going through with it.

MORGAN: Let's take a short break. Let's come back and talk about your life as a grandfather. You're a grandfather to Michael's three children, as well as others. I want to talk to you about whether you are as tough with them as you were with your own children. I suspect you're not.

(SINGING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PARIS JACKSON, DAUGHTER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Ever since I was born, daddy has been the best father you can ever imagine. And I just wanted to say I love him so much.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Perhaps the most touching moment for many at Michael Jackson's memorial, the heartbreak of his daughter, Paris. Back with me now exclusively is Michael's father, Joseph Jackson, and his former manager, Dieter Wiesner.

Tough for the kids that, Joe, more than anybody, I felt. It was such a public thing. And poor Paris, you know, she's just a young girl who has lost her father. Very, very hard. What could you say to her, for somebody who has been through so much yourself? What would you say to her afterwards?

JACKSON: Well, Paris is -- even Michael said, she a piece of work, you know, because, most girls are hard to raise. Piers, they are hard to raise. They are more harder than boys. But she is a nice girl. And most girls take to their father anyway.

But she -- she -- she is a good girl. And you have to work with her a little bit too.

MORGAN: Are you as tough with Michael's kids, because he is not around, as you were with Michael and his siblings?

JACKSON: Oh, no. They are my grand kids. They be glad -- I was just with them yesterday. Paris wouldn't get out of the bed. She was still in the bed. Prince and Blanket was there. As matter of fact, Blanket was making a video himself.

MORGAN: Really?

JACKSON: Yes.

MORGAN: When you see them, does it take you back to when your kids were young? Do you see Michael in them?

JACKSON: In Blanket I do.

MORGAN: Really?

JACKSON: Yes. In Blanket, I see Michael. Yes. But they are good kids. They are being handled well. And Katherine is really looking after those kids. And they love their grandma. They really love her. And they obey her, too.

MORGAN: Where were you when you heard that Michael had died?

JACKSON: I was -- I was in Las Vegas. I got a call -- Piers, I got a call from a fan. And he says, Mr. Jackson, something is wrong. I see ambulance there at Michael's place. And the ambulance took off and the fire department is following the ambulance. Something is wrong.

MORGAN: What did you do when you heard that, after you took the call?

JACKSON: Well, the saddest part about the whole thing was, Michael tried to reach me He says call my father. This was before he passed. He would know how to get me out of this. But they didn't get in touch with me. They said they couldn't find me. But I was right there.

And what bothers me, when he called for my help, I couldn't help him.

MORGAN: What was your relationship like with Michael towards the end? Because there was a sense that he was surrounded by people that were kind of keeping the family away, and that the family couldn't get to him how they wanted to.

JACKSON: That is very true. He was like -- well, they treated him like Howard Hughes. They couldn't -- family couldn't get to him like they should have. And that was very wrong for that to happen. But I guess that they had a motive to keep family away. But I guess because they were saying to the fact that too many families were hanging around, may cause some type of a disturbance in what we're trying to do with this young man. Yes.

MORGAN: This huge concert tour that he had lined up, 50 concerts -- knowing him as you did, do you think he was physically capable of doing that number of shows? Did you know he was doing that number of shows?

JACKSON: Yes, I did know he was doing that number of shows. There was a reason why. There was a motive for those shows. Because Michael was going to take that money and build a children's hospital. That's he wanted to do, build for all the sick kids. He needed to make sure that he had the right type of help.

MORGAN: When you think about Michael and the children like that, I can't not ask you about the court cases which scandalized his later years. As his father, how did you feel when he was accused of abusing children?

JACKSON: Well, you know, that -- there was a reason why that happened. They were trying to take control over Michael so that Michael paid out a lot of money. What is it, something like 22 million dollars, you know, to keep the (inaudible) done.

MORGAN: Do you wish he had never done that?

JACKSON: I wish he had never done that. But since he done it, the media, you know, didn't grab it as much as they did because it was hushed up. But Michael was afraid of the media, because they would never get nothing right, you know.

MORGAN: Did Michael, at any stage -- did his behavior ever worry you around children? The reason I ask you is a lot of people felt here is a man in his 40s -- mid 40s, having sleep overs with young boys. And most people would think that is inappropriate. Michael wasn't a normal guy. Everybody knows that.

But did you ever worry that the perception of what he was doing wasn't good for him or his image?

JACKSON: Well, Piers, Michael was a big old kid himself. He was still -- had the mind of a kid. But he loved kids so much. And the things that he didn't have, he tried to help them to have it.

MORGAN: You never saw anything that concerned you?

JACKSON: There's nothing concerning.

MORGAN: You never felt --

JACKSON: We knew Michael. We knew our son. We knew how we raised him. We knew that, yes.

MORGAN: Let's take another break. Let's come back and talk more about Michael, more about his legacy, more about him as a businessman. I'll talk to you about that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Back with me now exclusively is Michael Jackson's father, Joseph, and his former manager, Dieter Wiesner. Dieter, we'll come to Michael's business side in a moment. I just want to ask you one thing, Joe. Do you wish you had been able to do more for Michael towards the end? Do you wish you had been able to get in there, get him away from these drugs, get him away from the --

JACKSON: I tried. I tried. I tried very hard. And many times. But I couldn't get to him. Just like I told you earlier, they treated him just like Howard Hughes. You couldn't --

MORGAN: I find that a fascinating analogy, Howard Hughes. I studied a lot of Howard Hughes' life. And by the end, he was completely protected. I mean, you couldn't get past the walls to get near him. And it seemed like Michael, in his last few months, that was his life too.

JACKSON: Yeah. But what -- but that is the way it was. It was hard to get to him. And maybe, you know, his mother could get to him better than me, because naturally, you know -- Katherine is a very good woman and I love her much. I still do. And right now, they are trying to get my wife to divorce me. Yes.

MORGAN: Really?

JACKSON: Yes. But that will never happen. The people that surrounded --

MORGAN: When you say they, Joe, who are you talking about?

MORGAN: People that surrounded them, and around my wife, people that was involved with her.

MORGAN: Are these family members or --

JACKSON: Some are and some are not. None of my kids, no. They are not like that. It's other people that's around.

MORGAN: And they are trying to get you divorced so they can get their hands on Michael's money? Or what is it?

JACKSON: Well, they've got motives, you know. If they get Michael's mother away from me or me away from their mother, then they got her free. Right now, I'm only in their way. I'm the strong one. But the point is this: there will never be a divorce. I was with her last night.

MORGAN: Do you still love each other?

JACKSON: Of course. Yeah. If I didn't, there would be some divorces going on. But there will never be a divorce, Piers. She will tell you that.

MORGAN: Well, she did say the same thing.

JACKSON: Yeah. Yeah. But --

MORGAN: The problem is that Michael's empire is hugely valuable and will always attract sharks. Let me bring you in here, because you were a business manager for Michael for a very long time. You've brought some fascinating tapes. These are audiotapes. I want to go through some of this, because I once interviewed Michael in the late '90s. And I was struck that there was another Michael Jackson here, the businessman.

And I want to play a tape before I come to you. This is him discussing with you, I think, about a plan to buy Marvel, the comic business, back in 2001 or '02, I think it was. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. JACKSON: We could easily go in to Universal and buy it. We would own Jaws, E.T., Close Encounters, you know, all of the classics from Universal, own all of that stuff. And that would allow us to do a Universal -- I mean, a channel -- a Marvel Channel, not only the Marvel characters but Marvel films like the catalog.

We can do anything we want from restaurants to retail, theme parks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Now, you actually got the financing in place, I believe, for this deal. Then came the scandal court cases and it all got put back on the back burner. Disney ended up buying Marvel and doing exactly what Michael had predicted, and making a fortune at it. Tell me about this.

WIESNER: That was the second part of his life. He did want to do this. And he knew exactly every single detail, what he wants to do. And he was absolutely right. Because he was saying, so the music career -- I cannot do more than what I did. That's it.

And I have the Beatles catalog on one side. If buy this Marvel catalog, he has second part -- a big part in his life. He would be the richest person in the world.

MORGAN: Yes. He understood the power of owning rights to things.

WIESNER: Right.

MORGAN: I remember Paul McCartney giving an interview saying he couldn't even play some of his own songs because Michael had bought them. But that -- he realized the power of publishing rights, which is to say, in music, in movies, in television, in all of that.

There were lot of reports when Katherine went missing for a few days that some of the members of the family, the siblings had all fallen out with each other. What's the truth? JACKSON: The truth is that they had a big fight up there. I wasn't there. So it would have been much different if I had been there. But you don't cut a tree down by cutting the top off of it. I don't care how tall the tree is, by cutting top of it down. You start at the bottom.

MORGAN: Michael's three children, how are things going to work out for them? Are they going to have a lot of money? Or are you going to try and protect that, make sure they are not too rich too young?

JACKSON: I don't think you can get too rich too young. You can get rich and be young, young rich kids. You know, a trust is being set up for them. And I think that just started just recently, you know. But they do get the moneys, you know, going into a trust, retirement type situation. I don't know how much. But I know it's something.

MORGAN: Let me play you one last clip of Michael talking, which is very prophetic, given what we've just been discussing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. JACKSON: We don't want to die knowing that we didn't accomplish our goals. I want to die knowing that I did it. I did everything that I wanted to do and I did it my way, you know? That's it. We changed the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: What would you like Michael's legacy to be?

JACKSON: I'd like his legacy to be what he wanted to be. I want everybody to care about him and to love him and keep doing the things that he wanted to do. He wanted to make people happy all over the world. You see, Piers, Michael's situation -- if the world was like Michael, there would never be any wars. Everybody would get along. That's the type of kid he was.

MORGAN: Joe, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. It's fascinating. You're one of the most iconic fathers in the history of American entertainment. And I've never had a chance to sit down with you. I think you've been very honest.

JACKSON: Am I ending up with this now or what?

MORGAN: What else would you like to say?

JACKSON: I've got a documentary coming out and it's a big one.

MORGAN: Tell me about it.

JACKSON: It's a big one. It's called "Journey in My Shoes." And the reason it ain't out yet because I'm making sure everything is right. It goes all the way back to the Native-American family.

MORGAN: And what is the thesis of the documentary?

JACKSON: "Journey in My Shoes".

MORGAN: Tell me what it's about.

JACKSON: It's about my life story.

MORGAN: Right from start to finish.

JACKSON: Right from start to finish, coming up.

MORGAN: Joe, it's been a riveting interview. Thank you so much. I wish we could talk for longer, but we've run out of time. But it's been a great insight into your son. I'm so glad that you came on.

JACKSON: I didn't get a chance to promo my other stuff.

MORGAN: Joe, good to see you. Thank you so much.

: Thank you.

MORGAN: Listening to the tapes was fascinating. And he was a complex man, Michael, in many ways, a great businessman, amazing entertainer, and a great son, I think. And someone who had a father who maybe got a pretty rough rap over the years, perhaps unfairly. Joe, thank you very much.

JACKSON: You take care, man.

MORGAN: Thank you.

Joe Jackson and Dieter Wiesner. And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: That's all for us. Tomorrow, Anderson Cooper hosts a special town hall, "Guns Under Fire." And we'll follow Anderson's show with much, much more on the number one issue facing America. That's tomorrow night.

And Anderson Cooper starts right now.