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JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Will Jodi Arias Jury Hear Phone Sex Tape?

Aired January 31, 2013 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST; Another explosive day in the Jodi Arias murder trial. Is there a behind-the-scenes struggle to play a phone sex tape between Travis and Jodi to smear victim Travis Alexander without Jodi ever having to take the stand?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias` downward spiral. How did she go from popular student to accused murder? Did a failed affair make her snap and kill Travis Alexander in cold blood?

Plus Jodi`s jailhouse paintings have sold for hundreds of dollars online. I`ll talk exclusively to her high-school art teacher who calls Jodi the perfect student. What was she really like back in high school?

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT (via phone): I know that I talked to him early Monday morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You told her that Travis was gone. There was a moment of silence. And then she began to what, cry?

ARIAS: I wasn`t there that day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi, you were there that day.

ARIAS: I ran. And he was still like conscious and still alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You didn`t want to be alone with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was always dressed very conservative.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He took a picture of you while you were in the shower, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t ask her to take that picture. She took that picture of you, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

ARIAS: I asked him if I could take pictures in the shower and he`s like, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He liked that when I was there or when I or my sister were there, that they weren`t as physical.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was Travis ever abusive to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe not the physical abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever see him strike anything?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think Jodi just -- she snapped.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, an epic battle of the tapes inside the Jodi Arias courtroom. Will the jury hear the graphic X-rated phone sex call between Jodi and the man cops say she murdered in cold blood?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

The stunning 32-year-old photographer admitted she stabbed Travis Alexander 29 times, slit his throat ear to ear and shot him in the face, but she says, oh, it was all done in self-defense.

During opening statements, the defense promised the jury would hear a scandalous and explicit phone conversation between Jodi and Travis they say proves Travis sexually degraded Jodi. We`ve got to warn you this language is graphic, but this is what Jodi`s defense attorney said in open court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In this phone call he talks about his fantasies, his fantasies with Jodi of tying her to a tree and putting it -- forgive me -- in her (EXPLETIVE DELETED) all the way.

Jodi pretends to climax during this phone call. Travis tells her that she sounds like a 12-year-old girl who was having an orgasm for the first time. And then he tells her, it`s so hot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This afternoon, the judge suddenly booted everybody out of the courtroom for hours. The speculation: that she wanted to hear that phone sex call before it could be played in open court.

Can the defense play this incriminating tape without making Jodi take the stand in order to do it? Or does she need to sing on the witness stand if they want these tapes admitted?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS (singing): O holy night the stars are brightly shining. It is the night of our dear savior`s birth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Should the jury hear these steamy phone sex calls? What do you think? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

But first, just moments ago, an explosive end to the day`s court session.

Straight out to "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas. You were in court. You say what happened when a forensics technology expert may have inadvertently shown us where the defense is going. You saw the photo. Tell us what you saw, what happened immediately after, and what it portends for the defense.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Well, he was talking about looking at a hard drive that belonged to a laptop. Now the laptop he had just been describing was in Travis Alexander`s home and had been used at about 4 to 4:30 in the morning the day Jodi Arias arrived. That was June 4. He would be dead about 12 hours later.

Now, he said he looked at this hard drive, and he retrieved photos from it. And he could not say whose photo it -- who it belonged to, but we could see the photo.

And Jennifer Willmott, the defense attorney, tried to have it admitted into evidence. It was objected to. But it was a photo of a large, erect penis. And that`s all that was in the photo. And it was a big one.

And the prosecutor stood up to do a voir dire, because he was challenging the basis for admitting this evidence. He says, "You don`t know who this photo belongs to."

He said, "No."

"That`s not your area of expertise."

He said, "No."

Objection, sidebar. They talked in a sidebar with the judge, the attorneys, and then the judge said, "Bye, you`re going home for the weekend. See you next Monday."

So we don`t know what`s going to happen with this photo, whether it`s ever going to come in, but if it was on Travis Alexander`s hard drive, then, of course, the defense is going to use this as part of Travis Alexander`s deviancy, that he`s keeping pictures of -- maybe there are other penises. Maybe it`s his own. Why he`s doing it, they`ll question that. I don`t know if there`s anything wrong with this, but they will use it for their defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you for that explanation.

Remember the good old days where, if you`re accused of killing somebody, you`ve got to take the stand in your own defense and swear to tell the truth, the truth and nothing but the truth?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry it happened.

SAM WATTERSON, ACTOR: Yes. After your birthday like that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just sorry it happened.

WATTERSON: Nothing you can say will make it better, is that right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess not.

WATTERSON: Not even the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean?

WATTERSON: I mean the truth about why you killed this man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That kind of testimony, is it becoming old-fashioned?

Now social media changing the game of the courtroom. Attorneys are using texts and e-mails and voice mails to get testimony in without ever calling the defendant.

This defense just had their forensics guy refer to evidence he found on Travis` computer showing somebody at 4 in the morning hours before he was killed, watching a YouTube video called "Daft Punk Harder, Faster, Stronger." Appears to be a music video. But then you hear about this photograph of an erect penis. This is the kind of stuff that is now maybe replacing testimony in court.

Let`s debate it with our extraordinary team of legal experts. We`re delighted to have with us Gloria Allred, the famed victims` rights attorney; as well as other excellent attorneys, Areva Martin, Evangeline Gomez and Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor.

We start with you, Wendy. Has the game changed?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, there`s no question prosecutors and defense attorneys and investigators are looking deeper into these sources of technological private space, if you will, but just because something exists on your laptop doesn`t change the very old legal standard of relevancy.

In other words, just because it`s there doesn`t make it probative, doesn`t help us to understand the truth any better, in this case or in any other case. Technology doesn`t change the fact that the jury, even if it sees the picture of the penis from the hard drive, wink, is going to say, "Oh, well, there you go. Now we know whether she`s guilty or not."

They`re probably going to look at that kind of evidence and say to themselves, "Boy, this really emphasizes the fact that Jodi never herself got on the stand," which is going to make her look even more guilty.

So I don`t see why this helps her at all. It`s a little titillating. It`s a lot distracting, but it tells us nothing about what happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a second. Let`s debate this. Because Gloria Allred, famed victims` rights attorney, you were telling me how you have two I.T. people in your staff because this is the kind of evidence that really sings to a jury.

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Yes, they`re just downloading evidence all the time. Texts, e-mails, photos.

I don`t know, is this a dancing penis? Is this just an erect penis? Whose penis is it? I don`t know. But here we are in the middle of the murder trial discussing it. So Wendy`s right: is there relevancy? That`s going to have to be shown. How does this get tied up to the defense? We`ll have to wait and see.

But people need to be aware that, you know, when you`re using social media, somehow that might end up either in a criminal case or a civil case, or even somebody from your job may view it like an employer.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and don`t lose your phone.

Evangeline Gomez, here`s my question. They`ve got this sex tape. They`ve got a phone sex tape. She records it. Should they be able to play it without her having to take the stand?

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, ATTORNEY: Yes. They should be able to play it without Jodi taking the stand. Let`s remember, she is not required to take the stand. She has constitutional rights that allow her not to take the stand. And again she`s not going to be held to be presumptively guilty if she doesn`t take the stand.

They can have it come on in through the use of experts. Experts can testify. You can have someone testify as to whether or not that`s her voice, whether or not that`s his voice; psychological experts; social workers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Areva Martin, a lot of people find that concept offensive, that, oh, you`ve got to lay the foundation. You can`t just throw up this tape out of context.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You`re right, Jane. There are a lot of issues with foundation with respect to this tape.

And more importantly, I don`t know how this tape helps the defense. It just shows that this man and this woman were engaged in some pretty salacious sexual activity both, you know, when they got together as well as over the phone. And we`ve heard about these, you know, sex-texting that they were doing, as well.

But what we haven`t heard to date is anything that suggests that Travis was aggressive or that he was violent. And for the defense to have a chance in this case, they`ve got to make Travis a violent person. They`ve got to give us a reason why Jodi stabbed this guy 29 times, shot him in the face, left the scene of this crime, told people the exact opposite of what happened, and has recanted her story, and now has told us two or three different stories...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or do they? This man was not here to defend himself anymore and paint him to be somebody who is a sex pervert with sex on the brain, sex on the computer, sex on the phone, and make him less sympathetic to the jurors so they don`t give her the death penalty?

We`ve seen some of Jodi Arias` artwork sell for hundreds of dollars on eBay. And next we are going to talk to her high-school art teacher, who knew Jodi very well and has the missing piece of the puzzle. What makes this woman tick?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLMOTT: While he continued this facade of being a good and virginal Mormon man, he was inwardly dealing with his own sexual issues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did your sex life with Jodi Arias involve wearing little boys` underwear? Did it involve bending her over desks?

DARRYL BREWER, EX-BOYFRIEND OF JODI ARIAS: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, 911 emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state of Arizona versus Jodi Ann Arias.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s lots of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Count one, first degree murder, premeditated murder.

WILLMOTT: Jodi was Travis` dirty little secret.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he been threatened by anyone lately?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he has.

ARIAS: I wouldn`t use obsession. It was a two-way street.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caused the death of Travis D. Alexander.

ARIAS: I need to be honest. The evidence is very compelling, but none of it proves that I committed a murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How`s Jodi passing the time in jail? Well, she`s doing artwork, that`s how. Check out some of her drawings, done both in color and black and white. They`re pretty extraordinary, I have to say. Some of them -- a couple of the pieces have sold for hundreds of dollars on eBay. And I hope we can give you a tight shot of some of those. That`s very good. There`s Grace Kelly. So she`s doing these famous artists like Grace Kelly and Lucille Ball and Frank Sinatra. You can see he`s down there. She`s pretty good, right?

And she`s been doing these for some time. Well, joining me exclusively right now is the man who helped her create this art, become an artist, Jodi`s high-school art teacher Richard Rangel.

Richard, first of all, thank you so much for joining us, this exclusive interview tonight. I want to ask you, I understand that Jodi is from a very good family, Yreka, which is near the Oregon border in California and that you went to the business that the family still has in Yreka. Tell us about that business. And when you talked to them not so long ago about Jodi being behind bars. Tell us about that, sir.

RICHARD RANGEL, JODI`S ART TEACHER (via phone): Well, the business, the restaurant is called Daddio`s. It`s a franchise here in Yreka. And I went there to get my daughter a gift certificate so that she could go to the various places in town with friends and have lunch and dessert and that sort of thing.

And when I showed up, both parents were there as well as Joey, Jodi`s brother. And so they gave me the gift certificate. Then, of course, I had to ask how Jodi was. They said that -- the mom said that she was pretty nervous awaiting the trial that was up and coming.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you taught her art. She`s a great artist. I love some of these color drawings. What went wrong? In your opinion, first, describe what she was like in high school. Did you ever see her ending up like this?

RANGEL: No. No, no clues whatsoever. In school -- you know, in high school we teach single subjects, so you get a small snapshot of a student throughout the day just while they`re in your class.

So in my class, she enjoyed art. So when I saw her, she was ready to participate, enthusiastic, very conscientious, always prompt, and she was just a good art student. Took instruction well, was very skillful, very smart. And so, because of her intelligence, she was able to deal with any problem I would throw at the students. She was very skillful and just the kind of student that you would like all your students to be like, very modest and conservative, always clean-cut, soft-spoken and just -- just pleasant always.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you never saw any evidence of her being, let`s say, a sociopath. Some people have said later, maybe more recent to this horror, that she seemed sort of -- there was nothing there. You look in her eyes, and it was kind of empty. And maybe it`s easy to be a 20/20 quarterback/psychiatrist, but did you ever see anything that was just off?

RANGEL: Well, no. She was the -- you know, there was nothing that would indicate anything like this, that`s for sure. And, you know, as a high-school teacher, you see students all the time, and this is my 21st year. So I`ve had several thousand. And I work with them on their individual projects. They`re not coming up with an answer that they all should have. They all work independently. And so you get a chance...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Richard, can I jump in here and ask you about -- I want to ask you about her siblings. I just want to ask you about her siblings, because she has four siblings. And you said you ran into Joey, her brother. We haven`t seen -- I haven`t been in court, so correct me if I`m wrong, but I haven`t seen siblings there, especially boy siblings. What are her siblings like?

RANGEL: Well, Joey, very nice young kid. I knew him in high school, as well. He was very bright. We have something called the academic challenge where they put teams together and answer questions of various sorts. He`s a very bright kid. When I ran into him at the restaurant, he was working on some calculus at the local college.

The daughter -- I met one of the daughters, Angelina -- I was very impressed with, because we also have a talent show at the high school. And people put together groups, dance groups or performing groups, but they`re usually in company, safety in numbers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

RANGEL: But she walks out by herself, holding a banner singing a cappella native American song I thought it was pretty brave.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you`re saying that these kids, Jodi, her sibling, they all seem -- they`re from a good family, they own a franchise in Yreka. She`s above average intelligence. Her brother is above average intelligence. They were never in trouble. She`s a great artist. It doesn`t add up.

Richard, something doesn`t add up. This Travis Alexander, by her own admission, was stabbed 29 times. His throat was slit almost to the spine, shot in the face. That is a very, very violent crime.

There is a missing piece to the puzzle here. I don`t understand it. I don`t know how you can get from "A" to "Z." And we`ve got a great team here. So we`re going to analyze. I want to thank you, Richard, for your insights. There`s a missing piece. There`s still a missing piece. More on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you telling us that he acted differently privately with Jodi than he did, shall we say, publicly with Jodi?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So your impression was he kept Jodi into a different compartment, is that right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I guess you can say that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BREWER: When we moved to Palm Desert she started working at the California Pizza Kitchen and then eventually got a second job. The relationship was -- was slowly deteriorating over the summer of 2006. She got more involved with Prepaid Legal. She became less responsible to -- to the household bills. The house eventually foreclosed in the following year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Jodi`s previous boyfriend before Travis. And he says, yes, she`s working two jobs to make ends meet. Their relationship with this longtime boyfriend deteriorating, and then she gets this new job with Prepaid Legal thinking it`s going to be a bonanza, still can`t pay the bills.

Then she joins this new religion, new for her, converting to Mormonism. And all these people are coming over having Bible study meetings with her, and then her house gets foreclosed on.

Not only that, but Robi Ludwig, she`s competing for Travis` affection with two other women. One he has planned to take to Mexico, Mimi. When he was killed she was supposed to be going to Mexico with Mimi. Lisa, he wanted to date her, but she said, "I`m not interested in marriage."

So Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, that`s a lot of triggers.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right. I mean, it`s one thing to look at a personality when everything is going OK. Perhaps when Jodi was younger, you know, this side didn`t manifest, it didn`t reveal itself. But she is somebody that didn`t graduate high school, right? Didn`t she get her GED?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She dropped out in 11th grade.

LUDWIG: So that says something wasn`t going right.

It sounds like Jodi was looking to be loved. That was very important to her. She wanted to feel connected to a group, and she wanted to feel loved. And Travis was the person that she wanted to feel loved by.

And clearly, he was just using her for sex or enjoying her for sex. And you know what? He`s allowed to do that. That doesn`t make him abusive. But if he said the wrong thing at the wrong time, who knows what happened in Jodi`s mind?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gloria Allred, you are a victims` rights attorney, but you often speak for women in particular. Now they`re trying to say she was a victim, because he had phone sex with her that was kinky, he was engaged in sex with her right before she killed him. He`s pretending to be a virgin, because he`s a Mormon, but he`s not. He`s maybe got these photos.

So what? Does that have anything to do with self-defense?

ALLRED: I don`t see it as a strong self-defense argument, but maybe that`s all she`s got, and so they`re going with whatever they can.

But I mean, she`s got financial pressure, if she had that. She might have had the thought that perhaps they would marry, perhaps they would live happily ever after.

And it may be that he felt that, you know, because he had sex with her, that she could not be acceptable as a wife, that she could not meet the standard that he hoped for in the Mormon community. Of course, he wasn`t meeting the standard either, of being a virgin, but he may have felt that he needed someone pure, pristine, a virgin in order to marry. And maybe she just couldn`t accept it. Maybe she couldn`t accept that he wanted someone else for a wife. It`s all speculation, but it`s possible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. She`s good enough to have sex with, but she`s not good enough, in his mind, to get married to.

ALLRED: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That might not be a good thing, but it`s no excuse to kill somebody.

ALLRED: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And if we are participants in our own degradation, then it`s our fault, too. You know, we have -- and I`ve learned this in sobriety. We all have the right to not interact with anybody who makes us feel less than or put down.

ALLRED: And for him, he may have been thinking that, if he married her, that`s a reminder of his own hypocrisy, that in fact, he`d been having sex with her before they married, something not allowed in the Mormon church, and here after all, he was an elder in the church.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s fascinating. And there are lessons for women. Do not participate in your own degradation, because you can`t complain about it afterwards if you are participating of your own free will as an adult female.

We`re back to Phoenix for much more on the Arias trial. At the top of the 8, a former girlfriend of Travis Alexander speaks to Nancy Grace. That`s coming up in just a couple of minutes. But first, we are back with more debate over the highly sexual nature of this case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which entrance did she come in through?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The front door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when she came in and saw the two of you there, she turned around and just left, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, she ran out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She ran out. And these incidents were the reasons why you indicated that strange things were happening and that`s why you ended up breaking up with him, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: In this phone call he talks about his fantasies. That`s Travis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made a joking comment to the waitress about him and Jodi not dating.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Became infatuated and fell in love.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember the first time you and she had sex, though, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do remember, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she was very aggressive, wasn`t she?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were both aggressive.

LISA ANDREWS, FORMER GIRLFRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I came to the understanding that he was cheating on me.

WILLMOTT: With?

ANDREWS: Jodi Arias.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had an immediate suspicion that it was Jodi who had done this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had told us that he wasn`t dating her, and he thought that she was following him around.

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: There was a point in time when we were in love, but it was short lived.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: An explosive and explicit end to court today -- fireworks in the last couple of seconds. Let`s go out to Arizona and to Jean Casarez -- what happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, I think the big -- the big news is the jury was just released for the weekend. And here is the image that they`re leaving with because it couldn`t be ignored in that courtroom.

They had their computer expert on the stand. He`s going through what was found on Travis Alexander`s hard drive. Well, the defense attorney picks up a picture, and it is of the male genitalia, erect, and she`s just holding it up and she`s wanting to enter it into evidence. Of course, the prosecutor objects, but that is what the jury is now going home with, that Travis Alexander has on his own computer male genitalia.

We don`t know whose it is, if it`s his or somebody else`s, but that, I think, could help the defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How might it help the defense, Evangeline Gomez, criminal defense attorney, given that they found it, it`s dated just a couple of hours before she kills him and she`s arguing self-defense?

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he could have definitely sent it to her via text message, via e-mail. It could be his. He could have been looking at it. Perhaps it`s someone else`s. But Jane, it goes to show that this man is a sexual deviant. That is what the jury is leaving with this weekend.

Second, the other important issue is that we know he is sex crazed. We know he has this obsession with little girls or women who look like little girls.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wendy Murphy, help me out here.

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, my God. First of all, I am just stunned than an erect penis proves that someone is a deviant. Who does that leave for the normal guy?

GOMEZ: Who normally has one? I mean, who has -- what normal guy who`s in a healthy relationship has a picture of that on his lap top?

MURPHY: It`s the dumbest argument I`ve ever heard in my life. The guy was clearly sexual, and he may have been kinky and he did dirty talk, but you know what? I think 11 guys are on the jury. Every one of them has done some of those things, I guarantee it. They`re going home this weekend saying, boy, that guy was just like me. And I do those things too.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, wait, wait.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: No way do they thing that justifies murder, no way. No way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But let me say this, to back up Evangeline just a little bit, not that I agree with anything she said. But you have to put it in the context, Gloria Allred that it`s later in the afternoon that he ends up taking photos of her, Jodi Arias` genitalia, which is shown in court, those photos. There`s only two of them in the room and so presumably he had taken those photos of her.

So it`s a cumulative effect of the naked photos, the penis photo and then the photos that he takes of her, very tight shots of her genitalia right before the photos that lead to him being killed.

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: By the way, it`s pretty disturbing. You`ve got a deceased victim here. And I don`t know if it`s his penis or not, but if it is, to show a deceased victim`s penis in court, it`s really -- maybe I shouldn`t use this term -- but stretching it to do it?

In any event, so they took pictures of each other, what else is new? I mean in the world of social media, which we`re living in people are doing it all the time. I mean even without social media, haven`t men always been kind of checking out their own penises -- I don`t know if that`s his or other people`s -- comparing themselves to other people`s penises.

GOMEZ: Not a sign of normalcy.

ALLRED: This is not new.

GOMEZ: Not a sign of normalcy.

MURPHY: That`s ridiculous. There`s nothing abnormal.

GOMEZ: Not healthy, not healthy.

MURPHY: There`s nothing abnormal about this. Nothing abnormal about taking a picture of body parts when you`re sexually active and you`re an adult and that`s something you like to do. It doesn`t hurt anybody. That`s a big leap from sexual erotic stuff to --

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time, lady. Ladies, let`s get -- Areva Martin, you`re starting to look like the voice of reason over there. What do you have to say?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I just want to agree with Wendy. I think what the penis shows us is that these were two consenting adults that liked to engage in all kind of sexual fantasies. They took pictures of each other. Jodi was just as involved in this, quote, unquote, "deviant behavior" as Travis was. It wasn`t like she was sitting on the sidelines and this was happening around her. She was fully participating in all of this, we can`t lose sight of that. And the 11 men on the jury pool will recognize that Jodi liked to mix it up with Travis.

GOMEZ: Oh, yes. Devout Mormons don`t do this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. I think you`ve raised a very important point, Areva. If we are to say that a woman who as an adult participates in kinky sexual activity is somehow a victim, aren`t we reducing her to the status of being some kind of child and aren`t we diminishing all women as a consequence?

If we`re adults, we`re adults. If we`re not, we`re not. If we`re equal, we`re equal. If we`re not, we`re not. You represent women and women`s rights. I mean that is almost really a statement against women`s rights. Like, oh, we`re the victims here. We can`t be trusted to be --

MARTIN: I don`t think she`s a victim, Jane. I don`t think she`s a victim at all. I don`t think she was a victim. I think she was a full participant that enjoyed sex just as much as Travis. She kept going back to this guy. She had an opportunity to leave him. She did on numerous occasions, and she kept going back.

Every indication from every photo, everything we`ve learned in this trial so far is that Jodi loved, liked, enjoyed Travis sexually.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean this almost is --

MARTIN: And nothing. And Jane --

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There are cultures where women can`t go out of the house because, oh, my gosh, something might happen to them. There`s cultures where women can`t drive. No. Our culture is we`re adults, we`re equal, but that brings a certain sense of responsibility, Gloria.

ALLRED: Well, there is a certain responsibility, but you know what; they are adults. If they want to take pictures of each other`s genitals and send it to each other and enjoy it, ok. It`s not a defense. It`s not an excuse for murder or for any kind of violence whatsoever. And I think they`re going to have to tie it up pretty soon because I still don`t see a nexus here to any crime that`s being alleged.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, an exclusive interview with another co-worker friend of Jodi Arias, and she knew Jodi not too long before this horror occurred.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: She took the picture of you when you were in the shower, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

MARTINEZ: You didn`t ask her to take that picture, she took that picture of you, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

ARIAS: I asked him if I could take pictures in the shower and he was like, no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In just a couple of minutes, we`re going to talk to a woman, seconds actually, who served as a mother figure to Jodi Arias. And we have more of this intense debate on sex and the Jodi Arias trial.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did you first find out what happened to him?

ARIAS: Dan called me. I think, like late Monday night, like 11- something. I said, hey, how you doing? He said, great. I said I`m thinking of making a trip out there. He said, yes, I think you`re going to have to. I was like, yes, yes. (inaudible). Then he`s like, yes, there`s something about Travis. And I was like, what? You know, like, that`s never good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who is Jodi Arias? And how did she get from being a very good student in high school according to her art teacher who we just spoke to, to being an accused murderess, who admits she stabbed her lover 29 times, slit his throat and shot him in the face? There`s a missing piece to the puzzle, and we can`t figure it out but we`re going to try to.

Our exclusive guest tonight and we`re delighted to have with us tonight, Patty Goodman, a former co-worker of Jodi Arias`. Patty, thank you so much for joining us. I understand that you both worked at an exclusive restaurant in Palm Desert, California, which is a very nice town. I`ve been there. This was approximately two years before this terrible killing occurred. And you were apparently a mother figure to Jodi. Tell us about that. Why would she need a mother figure when she has her own mom?

PATTY GOODMAN, FORMER CO-WORKER OF JODI ARIAS (via telephone): Well, thank you, but I don`t know that I was a mother figure as much as I was motherly to her. I was a coordinator there at Quisto. It`s a very fine exclusive French restaurant in Palm Desert. And she worked there and, you know, the girl I remember was this perfectly groomed professional on-time, efficient -- she worked the lunch crowd at Quisto.

And we talked. She had mentioned -- she wasn`t really happy in her relationship. We didn`t really get into that. But we`d talk about options that she might have.

And she was so pretty. I mean, I just think of her with that pretty beautiful blond ponytail. She always had it up in a ponytail. And I remember suggesting that maybe she would be a flight attendant and she could get out and see the world; or, you know, different occupations where she wouldn`t have to have a college education.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So she seemed lost, in other words. You know, people -- waitressing is a very respectable job. I was a waitress, although I was fired because I refused to serve meat. I`m a vegan. I was fired from that job very quickly. But it`s a respectable profession. There are people do it, I applaud it. But sometimes people want to move on or they do it while like in Hollywood, there`s so many people who are actors who work waiting tables.

GOODMAN: Sure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you get a sense that she was frustrated with where life was? That she thought of herself maybe as I am to the manor born. My parents own a business even though it`s a restaurant, like a coffee shop type restaurant or a restaurant that`s not a fancy restaurant. But did you get the sense that she felt like I should be somewhere better than I am at some point in my life?

GOODMAN: Not really because I know that she didn`t want to go back up to Yreka. She had mentioned that, you know, she felt that she wanted to do something different with her life and she didn`t want to go back to northern California. I never heard her demean her family or demean what she was doing. She was very professional. I mean, we wouldn`t have her at the restaurant if she wasn`t professional. And she always had a smile on her face.

You know, it was just the quiet times where we would talk or after the shift was over and, you know, she was finalizing her paperwork and her moneys and all. But I never had that sense that she felt that she was working below herself or -- she just seemed to me to be lost. And I know that, again, she wasn`t happy where she was in her relationship and all, but she never went into great detail. I just told her at her age and with her presence and intelligence and professionalism, that she had options.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And what was your reaction when you heard that she was accused of this horrific killing?

GOODMAN: Oh, my gosh. It`s not at all what -- I wouldn`t connect the dots. You know, the girl I knew -- but can anybody imagine anybody doing this to anybody else, you know? I guess if you`re some type of a perverted whacko that you`ve experienced that with someone, but I experienced nothing but professionalism and sweetness with Jodi.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is the second person tonight who has said this. We talked to her high school teacher. Oh, she was great. She was a straight A student, super smart. You`re saying pretty much the same thing, responsible.

GOODMAN: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. But we do know she was unhappy in her relationship, this was prior to Travis and also she was having mounting money troubles and wanted a way out and as you said, was lost.

More on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLMOTT: Did Travis ever call you names?

ANDREWS: No.

WILLMOTT: Did you personally feel threatened by Travis?

ANDREWS: No.

WILLMOTT: Was Travis ever abusive to you?

ANDREWS: No.

WILLMOTT: Did he ask you to have sex with him?

ANDREWS: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for "Pet o` the Day. Send your pet pics to hlntv.com/Jane. Brody, oh, wow. You`re stunning. Handsome. Oh. Let`s see what we`ve got here. Cookie, oh, Cookie is just a beauty. What a beauty. And Melody. Look at that, with the armed forces. And Toby rocks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And one of the most shocking sound bites of this trial -- we have to warn you, graphic language, but the defense is doing everything it can for portray the victim who`s not here to defend himself as a cad who called Jodi horrible names. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember seeing e-mails in which Mr. Alexander referred to Miss Arias as a quote, "(EXPLETIVE DELETED) wonder?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a slut?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a whore?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gloria Allred, as an attorney, you said that that is perhaps of everything you`ve heard in the defense case thus far the most incriminating. Why?

ALLRED: Well, I mean I think it may be they`re trying to dirty up the victim, Travis Alexander. How could he call someone he`s intimate with in bed a whore? On the other hand, that could cut both ways. If in fact he`s saying it to her in bed, I mean there are some women who like the idea of their male partner calling them a whore in bed because in a way it`s a suggestion they`re that good at sex in bed. And that they really like the woman, they`re really enjoying it.

You know, we`ll have to see how this plays. I don`t think it`s going to be the determining factor one way or another.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jean Casarez, you`ve covered so many court cases, have you ever seen a case especially one focused on by the nation with such graphic sexual content?

CASAREZ: No, no, not at all. I think rarely have I seen a defense so weak at this point. I know it`s not over. But I just visualize the jury deliberating self-defense? There`s no self-defense here. So the argument is going to be between heat of passion, manslaughter and probably first degree, maybe second.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Robi Ludwig, just a couple of seconds. This is just throwing stuff and seeing what sticks at the wall.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree. I`m not hearing how she`s abused. I`m hearing how Jodi might be offended and there was something unique about this relationship. Perhaps she put all her hope in this guy. But no defense here, I`m not hearing it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, but then again, you never know how sex impacts the unconscious and 90 percent of communication is nonverbal. This pretty woman sitting there, looking demure; these male jurors may be connecting with her in some way. They`re hearing all this stuff, who knows what that equals.

More on the other side.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will Jodi Arias take the stand? Yes or no from our panel starting with Gloria Allred.

ALLRED: No.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy?

MURPHY: She should, she won`t. And it doesn`t matter. She`s doomed either way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Evangeline?

GOMEZ: Nope, she doesn`t need to. The defense has already proven that TA, Mr. Alexander is a liar, cheater, and abuser. The only thing they need is domestic violence experts.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s not a yes or no.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And Areva?

MARTIN: No, absolutely not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And I will say I don`t know. Because you can never predict what`s going to happen in there`s mega-trials. I don`t even think Jodi Arias knows right now. She`s trying to figure out what she should do next.

And Nancy Grace is up next.

END