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Jodi`s Sex Claims
Aired February 6, 2013 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are discussing Jodi Arias` testimony, day three.
JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: He had been requesting photos, naked pictures.
PINSKY: Graphic details and intimate confessions.
ARIAS: Kind of felt like a used piece of toilet paper. I kind of felt like -- like a prostitute.
PINSKY: What does this have to do with murder?
And he`s back. A pathologist tells us about the brutality of the slaying and the instruments of death.
Also, my jury`s reaction to the problematic sensational photos revealed in open court.
And two exclusive interviews with people who knew Jodi and Travis.
Let us get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome to the program.
With me this week my co-host, psychologist Wendy Walsh.
WENDY WALSH, CO-HOST: Good evening.
PINSKY: And we are talking about sex tonight in graphic terms. That`s what went down in court. Beware. You are forewarned.
Here we go.
Joining us: attorney Darren Kavinoky.
I also have Casey Jordan, criminologist and consultant on Discovery ID`s "Wives with Knives." A very appropriate show for Casey to have been a part of given the material we`re coming into tonight.
Jodi made stunning claims today about Travis` sexual behaviors and appetite, in front -- all of this in front of his mom, his family, and a jury that is predominantly male, and the TV cameras.
And a reminder, we are getting into this. So this is not for everyone tonight. Hang on tight.
WALSH: Not for children. That`s for sure.
PINSKY: No, that`s for sure.
Let us first go out to "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas.
OK, Beth. What was all this about? Why all the sex talk? And what was it building to?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Oh, you know, Dr. Drew, I`ve been around a long time, and I`ve seen it all. But even the most seasoned of us, myself included, were a little shocked at today`s testimony. And it wasn`t just the words that were spoken. It was what was displayed.
Remember, not too long ago, a few days ago, a computer forensic guy said that he had taken a couple of photos off of Jodi Arias` hard drive and they were male genitals, actually an erection very close up. Well, these photos were identified today. They were sent to Jodi by Travis Alexander 15 days before he baptized her. And they were displayed in the courtroom.
And there on a huge screen in front of the jury, this huge erection on a monitor to the left, on a monitor to the right. Anywhere you looked, it was just -- it was -- that`s all you saw.
And the jurors were like, oh, God. They were looking up. They were looking down. They were looking everywhere. Once they saw it, they didn`t need to look at it again for a long time.
PINSKY: And, Beth -- and, Beth, if I understand, this was even on the heels of testimony about anal sex and real specific, intimate details --
PINSKY: There`s some tape. We`re going to look at this right now, Beth. Hold on one second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: We were in my bedroom. We were not on the bed, but we were standing next to it. And we were kissing.
And I was in my church clothes. And then he spun me around. He bent me over the bed. I was face down. I had restraint (ph) inside.
He lifted up my skirt. And -- and he pulled down my underwear. I could feel an erection. He began to have anal sex with me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he entered you, you said you didn`t stop him. Did you say anything? Did you tell him no?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it pleasurable for you physically?
ARIAS: At that time, it was painful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Darren Kavinoky, here`s the deal, my friend. I want to vomit. I want to vomit not because I`m prudish or have difficulty talking about these things. I want to vomit because poor Travis` family is sitting there being dragged through all this.
What in the world does the defense think they`re doing with this?
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Well, they have to do things to set her up as a victim. They have to do things to suggest Travis led a double life, that he had a lot of secrets, that he wasn`t just all nice guy, because according to everybody that knew him he was a great guy.
So they need to do some things to at least plant the seed that what you see with Travis isn`t all what you get. And, of course, ultimately, what this has to build to is somehow justifying the ultimate act, which is Travis` death.
And so, if we can`t lay a foundation where she`s constantly being victimized, where she`s fearful that she`s going to be attacked again, where it`s going to be one brutal thing after another, then you just don`t get there. So, that`s ultimately why all of this matters.
PINSKY: All right. I --
WALSH: I`ve got to say something here. You say you feel like vomiting. But remember, this kind of sexually provocative talk sometimes arouses men. There are 11 men on that jury, all right?
PINSKY: Hold on.
WALSH: So there may have been a sympathy thing to talk about this.
PINSKY: I`m not ready to pull the jury into this cesspool. I`ve got on the line our buddy Abe Abdelhadi, or Abdelhadi, I beg your pardon, who had dated Jodi just weeks after she was "baptized" by Travis.
Abe, thank you for joining us again. We`ve learned a lot about that baptism.
I want you to listen to this, Abe. Are you there with me?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI (via telephone): Yes.
PINSKY: OK. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many dates did you have with Mr. Abdelhadi?
ARIAS: Just one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was Travis angry about your date with Mr. Abdelhadi? Was his distaste for your date with Mr. Abdelhadi, was it different than that with John Dixon?
ARIAS: From the tone of his voice, he seemed upset.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Abe, I want you to get a reaction. Give us your reaction to this testimony.
ABDELHADI: OK. Well, first of all, what was amazing is she told him at all at that time. Approximately, a year later, we`d had several conversations, maybe six or seven between -- we stopped going out. In an 18-month period, 10, 15 conversations.
At this point, about a year later, she had given me a call out of the blue. A couple of months I hadn`t spoken to her. And then she told me that Travis was upset with me.
PINSKY: A year later?
WALSH: Upset with you or upset with her?
PINSKY: Upset with him.
ABDELHADI: Upset with me. So I said why? She said, well, he knows about us. And I asked her, what us? She goes, well, we went out.
I said, when you guys were broken up? I mean, you can go out with the National Guard. It`s your business when you`re broken up. Why am I getting dragged into this? This is not my affair.
She said, well, I wanted to be honest and forthcoming. And I interrupted her and I got upset. I was like, no, you wanted to manipulate him. And you told me already that he had a problem committing to you. The reason he has a problem committing to you is because you`re pulling this crap on a regular basis. He`s going to have trust issues with you. Are you --
PINSKY: Abe, I`m going to interrupt you because it`s interesting. You got hot with her. You got angry, right?
ABDELHADI: I`m getting angry now thinking about it. I watched this and I was angry. I had no idea she had even told him at the time we had gone out. It was not an issue.
PINSKY: So for you --
KAVINOKY: As a rebuttal witness on this stuff.
PINSKY: Yes, maybe after they see this, he`ll be called back up again.
WALSH: This is a classic thing that girls do, Drew. They love to make them jealous about another guy --
PINSKY: Listen, if I didn`t know better, I would say Wendy --
ABDELHADI: I don`t go out -- hang on one second. I don`t go out with girls like that. That`s called drama.
WALSH: But you did. I`ll just say that.
PINSKY: You found your way to this one, Ab. I`ll give Wendy that. It sounds like she`s about to defend Jodi.
But I want to get at this one issue with you. She is presenting herself -- I keep hearing she`d get Academy Award for what she`s doing. She`s presenting herself as sort of this passive victim that`s violated repeatedly by this guy. You had a very different experience with her. Tell us what that was.
ABDELHADI: Well, first of all, let`s break down what she`s saying now and then I`m going to go back and address your question. I`ll be very, very brief.
First of all, I`m looking through this abuse. I watched this testimony today. What I heard was normal couples stuff. I`m waiting for the dungeons and whips. I`m waiting for all this stuff --
WALSH: Normal couple stuff.
ABDELHADI: A compound and Travis was David Koresh was visiting her in the middle of the night like she`s a 12-year-old.
So, I don`t understand any of this.
Now, back to your original point now, what really angers me is she is not some little prissy miss. I mean, she was -- we had one date. We fooled around. It was in a parking lot. We were against her car. She was very assertive sexually confident.
By the way, this whole battered woman nonsense, in our business, in legal (INAUDIBLE), we`re a small fiefdom, OK? And people that have a lot of success, go to the conventions and make a half a million or million a year, make a lot of money and she had the temerity to go up to every one of these guys. By their peers and people they work with. They`re not out trolling for people.
PINSKY: Abe, I`m going to interrupt you. Your connection is really rocky and I`m not getting all of what you`re saying. So I`m going to see if we can improve --
WALSH: I think what he`s saying is basically --
PINSKY: She was sexually aggressive.
WALSH: She was a slut, all right, is what she`s saying. But I don`t like to hear the slut shaming. You know that, Dr. Drew.
PINKSY: My understanding -- hold on, everybody. Everybody hold on. Host here.
My understanding is women felt a little more sympathetic towards her today. I want to get into that because I don`t think the men did. You`re hearing Abe certainly didn`t.
Next, I`m going to speak -- Abe, hang on, I`ll be with you in a sec. I`m going to speak next to a man who knew Jodi and says he actually worked with her and lent her money to go on the trip that ended in her killing Travis. I wonder if she paid him back.
And later, how could a petite woman so savagely kill a man so much larger than herself, even if it is self-defense? Dr. Bill Lloyd is here with his theory. There he is right now. You`re going to hear that later.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: It was a little confusing. The -- the sex. It just seemed like he sort of had the Bill Clinton version where his -- over here, it seemed like oral and anal sex were also sex to me. I felt a little bit used.
He gets a hotel room and I show up. We hang out. We have sex.
He`s not really there presently. Like he`s not mentally present. I`m getting a lot of attention but only while we`re engaging in sexual activity. And then we check out and he takes off. I kind of felt like -- like a prostitute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Interesting. I am not surprised. But I am disturbed and sick and tired of people making technicalities out of sex acts. It`s all sex. Let`s face it.
WALSH: Technical virgins out there I`m always suspect of.
PINSKY: It`s really just people trying not to feel guilty about being sexual when in fact they`re -- if this were 30 years ago -- by the way, that comes after you touch home base, the stuff that she was getting into. That was another stunning flip --
WALSH: It`s the wrong order of events.
PINSKY: Then you go back -- I`m not even going to say. Straight from Jodi Arias` mouth. This was about her sexual relationship with Travis Alexander. His poor family had to hear all this all day long.
And a warning for the viewers: this content may -- is in fact not appropriate for young people.
WALSH: Put your kids to bed now.
I am back with my co-host, psychologist Wendy Walsh.
Joining me, Paul Stern, who I`d said worked with her. I was wrong about that. He got know Jodi in 2008 before she killed Travis.
I guess, Paul, she worked at the Ventana Inn up in Big Sur and you were a customer there. She was a bartender, is that correct?
PAUL STERN, KNEW JODI ARIAS (via telephone): I own a house there. So, she frequented a bar and grill and restaurant every night to get on the computer.
PINSKY: So, she was not -- well, hold on a second. So, she was not an employee of this place. You guys both just went to this inn, this restaurant?
STERN: Yes. She was an employee of Ventana but I wasn`t. I just lived there.
PINSKY: I see. And you actually loaned her the money that ended up on the trip where she actually killed Travis?
STERN: Well, the day before she left, she was pretty frantic that she had to go back and see Travis, and she talked about how he was seeing other people and she asked to borrow money and I gave her money.
PINSKY: Paul, when you say she was frantic, describe how you -- who you thought she was and what you mean by frantic.
STERN: Well, I spent a lot of hours with Jodi. She would sit right next to me.
And you know more about Jodi by what she doesn`t say. She never talked about her family, her friends, her boyfriends, her hobbies. And she never talked about her feelings or emotions.
WALSH: What did she talk about?
STERN: But she was on the computer constantly and she kept a journal. She would show me pictures on the computer. There had to be thousands of them. I only looked at a few.
But I really wasn`t interested in time that much in her pictures.
PINSKY: In spite of her talking about her obsessions -- by the way, did she pay you back?
STERN: She did pay me back.
PINSKY: OK. And despite her talking about the obsessions about the boyfriend, was she sexually provocative with you?
STERN: No. No. I have a girlfriend that I`m still with at that time. And I`m not available. And I think she sensed that.
PINSKY: OK, so fair enough.
STERN: She would come and sit next to me whenever she was in there.
PINSKY: OK. Casey --
STERN: And --
PINSKY: What, Paul? Finish that up.
STERN: When you engage in conversation with Jodi and look into her eyes, it`s like looking in a two-way mirror. But Jodi`s looking at the reflective part of the mirror. And her eye beams never really meet your eyes.
And she`s very coy, enigmatic, and very articulate. And she`s also the same way about how she dresses, postures herself, and what she does without saying any words.
PINSKY: OK, Paul, I`m going to put you on hold for a second.
Casey, I see you shaking your head. What are your thoughts on this?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, a few things. First of all, it`s great to hear from Paul Stern the fact that she had to borrow the money because she was obsessed about getting to Travis Alexander because she was in the middle of a terrible break-up and this was simply not acceptable to her. So his description of her obsession is really on cue with what we know happened thereafter.
But that blank look in her eyes is what we very often call in sociology and criminology Cooley`s looking-glass self. It`s part of her chameleon and her actress affect. She`s constantly gauging or scanning whoever she`s talking to.
And without even thinking about it, she mirrors back. We see her do it all the time in court. We see her do it with her defense attorney, even looking like her all the time.
But she wants to know what will please people. This is a behavior she probably learned in her childhood. The bottom line is, he noticed it even though he wasn`t involved with her.
WALSH: And Dr. Drew, isn`t that a survival instinct for many people who have survived child abuse?
PINSKY: That`s right. It makes sense in the context, this kind of abuse.
But, Casey, what`s it called? What`s the syndrome called? Cooley`s looking glass?
JORDAN: We call it the Cooley`s looking-glass self. It means we are reflective and reactive. We are constantly modifying and interacting with everyone we communicate with, but some people take it to a much higher level to where they don`t even know who they are or what they --
PINSKY: That -- Casey, all right, Casey, I`ve got to go to a break. But I want you to take me from that syndrome to how we get somebody who is a murderer in your mind.
Thank you, Paul Stern. Very enlightening.
Next, we`re going to hear from a woman who lived with Travis Alexander. She was in court today. There she is. And she has a lot to say about what Jodi did today.
Thank you for joining us.
And later on, my jurors from the courtroom, not the actual jury but some of the people you see in the gallery there, will tell us how they reacted to some of this testimony and having to sit in a room with these sexually charged photographs and the poor family`s having to sit through that.
That`s all next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Travis was a friend to everybody, and even when things were bad between us he was always -- he would give his last -- he would give his last dollar, his last whatever. He was selling me his BMW.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jodi Arias telling police that Travis was a friend to everyone, a great guy. Hmm.
I`m back with my co-host Wendy Walsh.
And again, a warning to everyone, this is very adult topics and very frank language tonight.
I`m joined now by one of Travis` friends, Elisha Schabel.
And, Elisha, I appreciate you being here so much.
WALSH: Hi, Elisha.
PINSKY: And I know this must be really tough to sit through all this.
ELISHA SCHABEL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Hi.
PINSKY: Let me just start with that. How do you yourself react emotionally to what you`re having to sit through?
SCHABEL: Well, it is actually very emotional for me. And I apologize if I get emotional. It`s been very difficult actually to come on any show. I`ve been approached by several different shows.
And for the first couple of weeks, it`s been very difficult to talk about because I was so close to Travis and, you know, having to hear her in court today go on and on, it`s very difficult to hear.
PINSKY: What -- can you imagine -- I guess let me ask this. What is she like? And what do you experience when you watch her testimony?
SCHABEL: You know, she`s just -- no emotion, whatsoever. It seems inappropriate emotions that she gives. And you know, if I were in her shoes and if I had committed such, you know, a heinous act, for example, I would feel some sort of remorse. And she doesn`t show any signs of remorse.
Even if it was in self-defense, which by the way it wasn`t, I would feel for the rest of my life so remorseful and so sad for what I have done. You know, taken another person`s life. And that`s what`s really difficult to see.
PINSKY: And, Elisha, you strike me as a very emotionally connected, well- put together person, who talking about some difficult material, trying to hold it together.
I just want people who are watching compare Elisha to Jodi, who`s next to me in the footage we`re look at right now. See how distinctly different -- Elisha`s a very real and open and talking, it all makes sense --
WALSH: Have you met her outside of the courtroom? Is she a different person outside of the courtroom?
SCHABEL: You know, I haven`t personally seen her outside of the courtroom. I see her, you know, when court ends and she`s talking with her attorneys. And you know, we`ve made eye contact. And --
WALSH: Ooh, what`s that like?
SCHABEL: It`s kind of disturbing, actually.
PINSKY: Yes. And today -- I`m going to ask you a really tough question. But this is -- let me put it this way. If I were a friend of Travis` and had to sit through the defense throwing a picture up on the wall of my friend`s genitalia for an extended period of time, I would be furious with the defense.
How did you react?
SCHABEL: Well, I actually wasn`t in court for that. And thank goodness, because I don`t want to have to see that, to be honest. So, I`m glad I was late to court today.
PINSKY: But his family did, Elisha. His family did.
SCHABEL: I know.
PINSKY: And when I think about that, it just sort of adds more misery to this whole thing, doesn`t it?
SCHABEL: You know, I was watching from home when that happened. And, you know, that would be horrible. I have four younger brothers and to have to see that. I mean, I don`t want to have to see my brothers` genitalia. I mean, they --
WALSH: And Dr. Drew introduced you as someone who had -- Dr. Drew introduced you as someone who had lived with Travis. But you were roommates, right? He`s not an ex-boyfriend?
SCHABEL: Well, Travis took me in when I was in transition in my life back in about April, May of 2005. And I needed a place to stay. He said stay with me, I have a huge house.
And, you know, so I crashed there for a couple of days. And those couple of days turned into about 30 days, until I could find a more permanent place. And, you know --
PINSKY: Elisha, I`m sorry. I have to interrupt because I have to go to break. And I`m going to have you stay with me because I want to hear more about how you experienced him, how different he was for you as compared to what`s being portrayed in court.
Also, a reminder that I have my -- what I call my jurors coming up reacting to all this sexually graphic testimony today. What was that like in the galley? There`s -- the poor family, there they are again.
PINSKY: Plus, we`re going to look at a crime scene and wander and look. There it is. Does this look like the work of a woman defending herself? Pathologist and surgeon, Dr. Bill Lloyd, is going to break it down for us.
Be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recognize those?
JODI ARIAS, DESCRIBING SEXUAL TEXT FROM TRAVIS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are those pictures of?
ARIAS: Those are pictures of Travis` erection.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said this came to you via phone message. Is this something that you had solicited from him?
ARIAS: Not directly. I didn`t expect a photograph, but we were flirting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were what?
ARIAS: Flirting. It went on for hours, actually. Just back and forth just trying to be witty and top each other`s last comments.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you reciprocate with photos?
ARIAS: No. Not that day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did he react to your refusal to send him a picture?
ARIAS: He -- he felt that it should be fair.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: I`m back with my co-host, Wendy Walsh. We are talking about some quite graphic sexual testimony in the Arias murder trial today. This may be offensive to some. Beware. We were just looking at Jodi, who began to cry, I think --
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: OK. So, do you think she was crying or -do you think --
WALSH: -- she was fake crying? Oh, you think it --
PINSKY: I was trying to decide if she was crying. I couldn`t even be sure that she was. Casey, does that sort of fit with the -- what was the syndrome you called? The mirror syndrome?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes. The looking glass self is just really where you`re looking for cues to whoever is asking you questions. And in Jodi`s case, you have an extreme sense that she`s always trying to please and figure out exactly the correct answer to what they want to hear or what is the best thing, not the honest thing.
And everyone agrees that she`s a supreme actress. And the interesting thing here is that I think it worked with Travis for a while. I mean, she converted to Mormonism. She had two long-term relationships with men. She was not a born again virgin. I mean, she was trying to adhere to the Mormon faith about no sex before marriage, but really, it was about pleasing Travis.
PINSKY: Right. That`s why she wouldn`t say no. She maintained this bizarre technicality --
WALSH: She didn`t own her own no. She didn`t own that word.
PINSKY: That`s right. Abe, does any of this surprise you?
VOICE OF ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: No. Actually, it doesn`t. And earlier, before my phone was breaking up, I was -- what I was working to say is that she was an assertive person, and she would make inroads to very prominent, successful, accomplished people. She`d get her picture taken with them and she was very charming.
She had no problem exerting that side of herself. I mean, she wasn`t out dancing on tables, but she was a very confident person. And the brief time that we had together, she wasn`t shy. She wasn`t, you know, worried about oncoming cars or anything like that.
So, this little Quaker Oats thing that she`s doing with the Mother Theresa get-ups and the hair and the braids and the plastic glasses, I`m like, give me a break. I mean, this woman is Kaiser Soze with boobs, let`s be honest.
ABDELHADI: And everyone is going off on this abuse. I`m waiting for the abuse. So far, I`ve seen nothing that doesn`t happen in a normal relationship. We had a fight.
WALSH: Well, I wouldn`t call this a normal relationship. This is the second time you`ve said this. I wouldn`t call this a normal relationship.
ABDELHADI: Well, up until she killed him, up until the punchline, and you know --
PINSKY: Abe and --
PINSKY: And Abe, that is my point is that all of this makes sense, her history of abuse and she has this looking glass eyes and all that stuff. It doesn`t translate to murderer.
WALSH: That`s the piece.
ABDELHADI: It doesn`t.
PINSKY: And Elisha, one of the most troubling pieces of story that was discussed today in court was the story about anal sex after baptism. What did you do with that?
ELISHA SCHNABEL, CALLS TRAVIS GENEROUS, KIND, FLIRTATIOUS: Well, having been a missionary for the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also known as the Mormons, I found that very disturbing, actually, because, you know -- and obviously, knowing Travis very well, there`s no way he would have done that.
WALSH: Do you think it`s outright lying?
SCHNABEL: Like you said, you know, say often, Dr. Drew, you know, my B.S. monitor was just, you know, over the top on that one. I`m sorry. I just - - it didn`t happen.
PINSKY: OK. I think that`s a reasonable -- we`ve all been wondering, what`s lie and what`s -- you know, what`s Memorex (ph), what`s lie, and what`s people trying to build a case?
DARREN KAVINOKY, @DARREN KAVINOKY: But you know what, it`s interesting because if the jury believes that those things are true and that Travis, indeed, as is now being pointed out, that he led this double life, I mean, that`s what all of this material goes towards. If they believe that and if they feel like all of this activity somehow humanizes Jodi, it may also play into the other game that`s afoot here, which is trying to keep her alive.
PINSKY: I get that.
ABDELHADI: Humanizing lizzie borden. What are you talking about?
PINSKY: But Hold on, Abe. Abe, hold on. Abe, buddy, hold on a second. And by the way, I`ve got to say, I think they had accomplished that in day one. Now, I think this is going over to the other side where people -- she`s abusing me now. I`ve got Debbie who wants to ask Abe something. Debbie, go ahead.
DEBBIE: Hi. I was wondering, was Jodi sexually aggressive? And, was she into taking pictures of body parts? Because she kept the photos of Travis. No one seemed to mention or make note that she kept those photos. And I think that she is the one who initiated the photos.
PINSKY: All right. Debbie, hold on. Abe, What do you say? I`m running out of time. Go ahead.
ABDELHADI: That would have been some first date. I have no experience with that.
PINSKY: But does it fit with how you experienced her?
ABDELHADI: Well, she was confident. I mean, she didn`t ask to take my pictures or anything. But yes, she wasn`t some timid wallflower.
WALSH: Now, I know that. But Abe, women are not as visually attuned as men, and generally, when these photographs come, they come as a bid from the man to try to get the woman to send a naked picture of herself. So, that`s --
PINSKY: I`m going to evaluate in a couple minutes what the men and the women are experiencing in the jury box and here with you, what I`m experiencing.
PINSKY: I want to say thank you to Elisha. Elisha Schnabel, thank you for joining us after such an emotional day. I can`t thank you enough. It`s a perspective. It feels honest and genuine, and it stands out in bold relief against what else we`re hearing about your friend. So, thank you for joining me.
I also want to thank Abe Abdelhadi. You`re always a great guest, and I appreciate you being here. And I`ve got next, Dr. Bill Lloyd. He`s been following the trial. What does he think about how Jodi, the small, petite woman, actually did the deed? Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR IN JODI ARIAS MURDER TRIAL: Do you think that it is appropriate to take a knife and slash somebody`s throat?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection.
MARTINEZ: When she began stabbing him, no one can debate the fact that Mr. Alexander, if he were alive, to be asked, did you really want her to be in your house when she began stabbing you? I am sure he would have said no, i do not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was prosecutor Juan Martinez talking in court about the slaying of Travis Alexander. I`m back with my co-host, psychologist, Wendy Walsh. Again, a reminder, we are talking about some graphic sexual material.
PINSKY: It`s all reflecting what was shown and spoken about in court today. Joining me now, board-certified surgeon and pathologist Dr. Bill Lloyd. All right, Dr. Lloyd, I really do appreciate you bringing us here - - bringing us into that room --
WALSH: Break it down for us.
PINSKY: Yes. Break it down for us. There`s physical evidence or Jodi`s testimony. How do you think she did what she did?
WALSH: People are saying she`s too small.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PERFORMED OVER 500 AUTOPSIES: It`s an important question. Many people still have doubts. How can this little pixie take down this larger man? You don`t have to have a Ph.D. to understand the physics of murder. Jodi had the element of surprise. She also had the emotional leverage.
Dude`s in the shower after hot sex. He`s not worried about a thing. Life is good. But she`s got the knife. And it happens to be a very sharp knife. And one last element, Drew, she had good luck. She was able to put the tip of this knife in between the ribs on the first try. All she had to do was penetrate the skin.
PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd, is that the probable type of knife that she used?
LLOYD: It certainly is. It may have been an inch or two shorter, but it had to be deep enough not simply to enter the chest but to go all the way across to sever the vena cava as we discussed. The first moments after that knife entered, Travis was losing up to 30 quarts of blood per minute. An enormous blood loss.
And later, later as we know, she severed his neck and severed his throat and cut the jugular vein as well. But that was icing on the cake. He had already collapsed. And even if she had done, not one other thing, he was certain to have died.
PINSKY: And now -- again, the full -- my viewers haven`t seen the picture. I wish I could show it because it speaks so many volumes. But this jawline to jawline cut where his -- there`s a gaping wound. You can almost see his cervical spine through the front part of his neck. Nearly cut his head off.
WALSH: This is serious.
PINSKY: Yes. How much force would have had to have been applied for that?
LLOYD: He was unconscious. So, she was merely cutting meat. And again, although, substantial bleeding comes from that as well, he was already on the downhill slope from that stab wound to the chest.
PINSKY: Casey, I want to go to you. I see you shaking your head in vigorous agreement. I don`t deal with criminals. So, to me this is like - - I can`t even get my head around it. Help people at home understand how we go from someone who has a history of abuse, who`s got this obsession and love addiction and whatever and is obsessing about this guy to this violent murder where we see her carrying out acts like this.
JORDAN: Well, I don`t see the connection. I don`t think the jury will, either. So far, we have not heard enough in court to really substantiate any level of abuse that would even rise to the occasion that we have seen in truly abused situations where somebody is successful in using it with self-defense.
But the savagery that is described is a level of anger that I think is going to leave the jury wondering, you know, did they have sex and Travis told her I`m going on a cruise with another woman in a week and this really is the last time I want to see you? She came there prepared, with a gun, with a knife, apparently.
And the moment she was waiting for, as we pointed out, in the shower, I think everyone at home sees the parallels to the movie, and I say this without irony, "psycho." The look on his face, the blood spatter, everything, I think she had a movie reel going in her mind the entire time waiting for the moment where he finally said, I don`t want anything to do with you, and that`s what made her unhinged.
WALSH: I think it`s more like "Fatal Attraction."
PINSKY: Right. Tai in Hawaii, do you want to ring in here on this?
TAI, HAWAII: Yes. I was totally 100 percent pro-Travis today until I heard her explain about the process of baptism and she did that with 100 percent accuracy and as to that whole process happened. So, I truly do believe that Travis took her home, and after he baptized her, then had (ph) anal sex with her like that`s just -- the defense got me today.
PINSKY: Well, Casey -- but again, yes, it`s not something savory, but I still don`t go to savage murder from there. Should i?
WALSH: But there will be some sympathy from --
PINSKY: You are sympathetic. You told me this. You were feeling sympathy for her today.
WALSH: Well, sympathy, I mean, again, I don`t think that she should get off. I mean, she definitely murdered this person, but now, I can start to put the puzzle pieces together and figure out why.
PINSKY: Casey, answer that.
JORDAN: I`m sorry. She`s 27 years old. She has a lot of sexual experience. The men she`s dated say that she was aggressive. And to me, the most important line in today`s testimony is when her attorney said, when he allegedly, you know, anally raped you, did you say no? And she said no. I didn`t. So, I didn`t think that that supported the idea that she felt abused.
And i don`t mean to be coy, but she said she felt used like a prostitute. And a lot of women at her stage, 27 years old, having dated a lot of men, know that feeling. And the answer is, you don`t call him back and you don`t see him again. And she hasn`t described a level of abuse that would make her keep coming back for more.
She wanted to get married. She wanted to be that woman he married and had a family with. And when he said no, she stopped at that exact moment--
PINSKY: It`s starting to make sense of all this. Thank you, Casey Jordan. Thank you, Darren Kavinoky, Dr. Bill Lloyd. Darren, a reminder, is the host of investigation Discovery`s "Deadly Sins."
Next up, my jurors are back. How are intimate details of Jodi`s sex life playing in the courtroom? Are men, the real jury, the men or women, the older, the younger, who`s most interested --
WALSH: I`m curious to know.
PINSKY: -- who`s sympathetic, who`s falling asleep, we`re going to get in all that after this.
PINSKY: It is time for "Dr. Drew`s Jury." I am back with my co-host this week, psychologist, Wendy Walsh. And I want to read a Twitter to you guys. It`s from Marie Therese @Peoni 459. "I really wish @Dr. Drew would get some male courtroom spectators to be on his jury."
Well, Marie Therese, your wish is my command. Here`s my jury. They`re joining us, Katie Wick and Jon Weiss. They were in the courtroom witnessing all the graphic testimony, which again, as I keep warning our viewers, may be offensive to some.
Katie, I`m going to go to you first since you`re our veteran here. Do you think the female jurors found her more sympathetic today?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": i believe so, because I was really observing the jury today. I was really watching them. And the female jurors, there`s three female jurors that continuously take notes, copious notes. But I noticed -- I didn`t notice any of the male jurors taking notes today. They were yawning. Some were looking at their nails.
They were just not connected today. And then, I saw a lot of sighs coming from them, especially when the defense attorney towards the end of the day -- I don`t know if they were just getting tired. The defense attorney said at one point, oh, wait, let me back up, and I saw -- I probably saw them -- it seemed like they were all together.
They just kind of went, ah, like come on, let`s get out of here. So, I think the females are paying more attention than the males right now.
PINSKY: So, I`m going to go out to John then. John, what is that? And by the way, as I understand, there are two sort of camps of men on the jury. There are some young 20 -- a couple of 20-year-old guys and most guys sort of over 50 on the jury. A, is that correct? And B, why do you think what Katie is reporting happened?
JON WEISS, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, you know, from a perspective as a father and -- I have a daughter 15 years old. When I was watching the men, depending on their age, they`d be looking at the testimony a little bit differently. You know, definitely I concur, I think definitely I`ve seen three of the female jurors taking notes all the time during the whole time.
And I didn`t see any male jurors taking any notes at all. So, I mean, I think the male counterparts that, you know, that are in there, I think they`re definitely going to look at it completely differently if they have kids, especially daughters, you know, somewhat the age of Jodi.
PINSKY: Meaning, what, that they`d be sympathetic to her or -- I don`t know what you mean.
WEISS: Yes. Well, for me, as a father, you know, my daughter`s 15, you know, and I used to hang out and I used to associate with people, guys, that were very aggressive with women and tried to do that thing with women and be done with it. You know, that`s not something I did.
PINSKY: OK. Interesting.
WALSH: So, you think --
WEISS: For my daughter either.
WALSH: OK. So, do you think they have sympathy if they`re fathers. Now, the question is --
WALSH: -- how many of those 11 men are fathers? Some of them may have been aroused by her testimony. Some of them may have been sort of starting to be sympathetic.
PINSKY: And a reminder that six of these jurors are alternates. Only the 12 -- and no one knows who the 12 are amongst the 18 actually up there in the box. Abe, I want to go to you. It`s an interesting point, isn`t it, that the defense may be making some inroads with men with children, do you think?
ABDELHADI: I don`t think so. And I don`t know how anyone could be aroused when you know what the punchline is. And so, that`s --
WALSH: But you don`t have kids, right? Do you have a daughter?
ABDELHADI: No. I don`t have a daughter. I`ve got a niece and nephew --
WALSH: Your world`s going to change. You`ll see.
ABDELHADI: Well, it`s hard for me to read "Penthouse Forum" when I know at the end Lizzie Borden`s going to show up with an axe and give me 40 whacks. So, I don`t understand this arousal routine. And this is what the defense is going for for sympathy, listen, man, she did what she did. There`s no sympathy here.
Abuse -- first of all, there`s no abuse. She had relationships that didn`t work out. Oh, cry me a river. I mean, you know, my dad spanked me. Everyone`s dad spanked them. I mean, I had girlfriends that didn`t behave. Whatever. I didn`t kill any of my girlfriends.
PINSKY: I`ll go back out -- yes, I get you. I hear you, Abe. You`ve been loud and clear today. I`m going to go back to Jon and Katie. What was it like sitting there with that poor family having to look at these explicit photos and all this explicit talk? My heart goes out to them.
WALSH: Oh, really.
PINSKY: Was there something palpable that you guys could feel?
WICK: It`s -- It`s horrible. I can`t imagine what these -- this family is going through. After just talking with Elisha, who you just had on your program, we met and spoke about 45 minutes earlier. And I just -- I understand why they wouldn`t want to look at the photo that was on the screen today, Dr. Drew. But something that I just got disgusted with was Jodi started to try to cry.
I mean, come on. Why -- Jodi, we`re talking Jodi Arias here. We know the pictures she`s taken and the pictures she`s posed for. Why is she crying over the photo that was displayed in the courtroom today? It just doesn`t make sense.
It`s almost as if she`s trying to mimic -- because she sits right across from where the family is. It`s almost like she says oh, the family`s crying, so now let me put the waterworks on.
PINSKY: Katie, i think you`re on to something here. Thank you, Katie and Jon. Thank you so much for your observations. Hopefully, we`ll check in with you again soon.
Next up, after the break, a special birthday salute after this.
PINSKY: All right. A quick shout out to Little Ethan, the boy that was rescued from that underground bunker on Monday. He is six today.
WALSH: Happy birthday!
PINSKY: All right. Take a look at all the homemade cards sent his way --
PINSKY: -- saying happy birthday to Ethan. And Wendy, I think you and I both believe this kid`s going to do well if he gets proper treatment soon - -
WALSH: I think lots of early interventions, keep the family out of the media. This kid is going to do great, I hope.
PINSKY: Yes. It`s grinding. It`s difficult. We still don`t know what he saw down there. But again, these things can be treated. And a reminder, HLN`s coverage of the Jodi Arias trial begins tomorrow at 3:00 eastern time. I know I`ll be watching.
Again, I have to say a thanks to my guest. And Elisha Schabel, who was so critical and provided us so much great information, I got her name wrong. I apologize for that. I also want to say thank you to my co-host all this week, Wendy Walsh. Thank you for being here.
WALSH: It`s my pleasure.
PINSKY: It`s an interesting week. Are you going to keep watching --
WALSH: I`m not going to miss a bit of this. Are you kidding? I`m going to have HLN on all day long.
PINSKY: It`s interesting. I can`t wait till the cross-examination gets going.
WALSH: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: My understanding is, I bet you we will have several more days of her on the stand. And, you know, I think if you think like I do, that it makes sense, they`re building a case that, you know, sort of fits psychologically --
WALSH: There`s a lot more sex to hear about, Drew.
PINSKY: But there`s a giant leap from the case they`re building, which I`m sympathetic to, to being a violent murder.
PINSKY: So, thank you all for calling. Thank you all for watching. And a quick reminder, "Nancy Grace" starts right now.