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Manhunt for Ex-Cop; Former Police Chief Mentioned in Manifesto; Historic Blizzard on the Way

Aired February 7, 2013 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Tonight, a chilling manifesto - the threat to bring unconventional and asymmetrical warfare to those in LAPD uniform. A police force under siege, the suspect, one of their own.


CHIEF CHARLIE BECK, LOS ANGELES POLICE: Of course, he knows what he's doing. We trained him.


MORGAN: I'll ask one of the many people he names, former L.A. Police Chief Will Bratton, what he knows.


WILLIAM BRATTON, FORMER LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: I would have given him a coin like this. My understanding is that CNN received a package that included a replica of that coin with three bullet holes.


MORGAN: Plus, guns, drones, and the state of the GOP. Who better to talk to than Rudy Giuliani.


RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: This would be done by George Bush, we would be talking about hearings before Congress. We'd have some people talking about impeachment.


MORGAN: And a monster snow storm takes direct aim at the northeast. We're tracking what could be a record-breaking blizzard.


Good evening. We're tracking two ferocious storm systems barreling towards the East Coast tonight. They're expected to slam into each other in the next few hours creating a blizzard that forecasters think could be historic. Boston could see snowfall of 2 to 3 inches an hour. Nearly 3,000 flights are canceled already as the airports batten down the hatches. Weather forecast from Chad Myers in a few minutes.

Meanwhile, the West Coast, we're tracking the manhunt for ex-LAPD cop. The suspect's burned truck has been found at a mountainous area about 100 miles east of Los Angeles.

In an online manifesto, Christopher Jordan Dorner allegedly vowed to wage war on police. Three people are dead, one officer, plus the daughter of a retired officer and her fiance. Tonight I'll talk to friends of victim Monica Quan.

But we begin with CNN's Kyung Lah who's live for us in Riverside, California.

Kyung, there's been a press conference with the police that. What is the very latest on this manhunt for this very dangerous man?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the sheriff's department just came out and spoke with reporters. And what they are saying, and it's a little surprising, is that despite those perilous conditions, despite the danger that those officers are facing on this rough terrain, they are going to keep on searching.

Snow is in the forecast. The weather is going to become extremely difficult. But they say they are going to stay out there. They have the dogs out there. They're going to use all the technology that they can, but their goal is to try to corner him in some very rough terrain, Piers.

I have been out in that area. It is a heavily wooded area. There are resort homes. Some of those homes are empty. So they are -- you're talking about police officers hunting one of their own, who wants to kill them, and he is a trained marksman and heavily armed.

MORGAN: Given where they found the burned out truck, do they have any idea, do you think, where he may be? Or do they fear the whole thing has been a trail he's laid down to put them off where he really is?

LAH: It's very difficult to tell. They were a little vague in those news conference. What the sheriff was saying is that they did discover some tracks, but those tracks didn't lead to the suspect. They won't elaborate beyond that. What they will say is they still believe he is somewhere in that area. That's why they want to keep searching through the night.

MORGAN: And in terms of his weaponry that he has with him, we know he's highly trained. He's had a shoulder mounted RPG and an assault rifle. What else can you tell me about the kind of firearms he may have?

LAH: The police have been vague. They have -- we don't know if that's to be intentionally vague, but what we do know is that they believe he is heavily armed with multiple weapons. What type of weaponry, the level or sophistication of it, they are being a little vague. But certainly, he can shoot from a distance. He can be accurate from a distance. Now we have covered here at CNN over the past six months multiple shootings like this where there have been multiple victims. The difference in this case is we are talking about a trained marksman who has targets in his sight. That's what's particularly frightening about this particular search.

MORGAN: Right. And is there some significance to today? Is it some anniversary of his time with the LAPD?

LAH: Something very significant. Today is February 7th. He was hired on February 7th, 2005. We don't know if it's a coincidence, but certainly, this is a meaningful day to Christopher Dorner.

MORGAN: It's an 11-page manifesto that he left for people to pore over. It's in turn rambling and then oddly coherent, although when you put it all together, you get a sense of somebody who's kind of slipped but is driven by a sense of maltreatment going back to when he was let go by the LAPD.

Is that what the police think they're dealing with, somebody who just has been harboring resentment and is now settling scores?

LAH: It's a little difficult to tell because the people we've spoken to are people who knew him in much happier times, that he was much more bubbly, much more normal. But certainly, you have it exactly right, Piers. If you read through this manifesto page by page, there -- are some coherent narratives, but at the same time, the level of violence, the amount of incoherent rage that he has against the LAPD, it is there. You can certainly see that this is a man who wants to strike, who will strike, and will not be stopped until somebody stops him.

MORGAN: And it's an extraordinary situation. Ten thousand LAPD officers targeting somebody who may well be targeting them. It's pretty unprecedented.

Kyung Lah, thank you very much.

I want to bring in a man who's been named in that manifesto against the LAPD. Bill Bratton is a former top cop in Los Angeles as well as New York.

Welcome to you, Chief Bratton. It's a pretty worrying situation, isn't it?

BRATTON: It certainly is.

MORGAN: This is a man who's highly trained both in the police and the military. He's on the loose. What is your overview of what is going on here?

BRATTON: Well, the circumstances today were certainly extraordinarily tragic. This is an incredibly dangerous individual. Well armed. Incredibly well armed. Who is a trained police officer. I'm not sure what his military specialty was in the Navy. But he's been responsible for a series of very tragic incidents in California, and this is an extraordinary set of circumstances.

MORGAN: In the manifesto, he puts your name and a number of other names which I will not be revealing, and he says this, "Your lack of ethics and conspiring to wrong a just individual are over. Suppressing the truth will lead to deadly consequences for you and your family. There will be an element of surprise where you work, live, eat and sleep." And there's a lot of people he directs this to. Clearly, he feels, according to this manifesto, extremely angry about the circumstances behind his firing from the LAPD.

When you hear the nature of that threat, what do you -- what do you think of that?

BRATTON: Well, certainly very chilling, and now that we know that he in fact is acting out on his concerns even more significant. This is an individual, as best we understand it today, has murdered three people, including a police officer. Shot two other police officers. And there was a related tragic incident in which two innocent civilians were shot by the Los Angeles police department, guarding one of the houses of the intended victims.

So it has been an extraordinary day in Southern California and he's still on the loose, and the subject of a significant manhunt there. A significant dragnet, if you will. And let's just hope that they're able to apprehend him without the loss of life.

MORGAN: He mentions a lot of people in this long, rambling, it's more than 20 pages long, manifesto. A lot of it has been redacted so that it protects identities of police officers and their families that he may be targeting or trying to. He names a lot of media people. He names me in there, perversely congratulating me for my position on gun control, and he congratulates Senator Feinstein and President Obama and so son.

I say perverse, because obviously he then goes out and commits a series of atrocities and murders with a gun. He sounds completely unhinged, and yet the catalyst for all this appears to be his firing from the LAPD.

Do you have any recollection of what happened with him? Do you remember him?

BRATTON: First off, we don't know what the catalyst was. The firing was back in 2008, I believe. That's now over five years ago. So what has transpired during those five years, the court several years later upheld the firing. So as to what triggered the actions, the producing of the manifesto, the separate sending of a package to CNN last Friday.


BRATTON: We don't know. And we won't know also until they either apprehend him or other information comes forward. So was it the firing? Was it something else that transpired? He appears to have a lot of anger directed to a lot of different people. Some who have no relationship at all, as best we can tell, to anything having to do with the discharge.

MORGAN: The package he sent to Anderson Cooper, which Anderson didn't see until today, wasn't made aware of it, it contained a number of things. It contained one of these. And you brought this in today. This is -- explain what this is, exactly.

BRATTON: That is a challenge coin. It's a military tradition that the police departments of the United States have emulated now for several years. And it's a coin that in my case, it has my shield, the LAPD badge, and on the backside, the badges going through the years of the founding of the LAPD.

You give it to an individual as a sign of respect, as a token of appreciation or good luck.

MORGAN: And you probably gave it to him when you met him when he was about to go off for military service, is that right?

BRATTON: That's correct. A photo that's been widely disseminated today shows me standing in front of several flags with him in his military uniform. That was likely either when he was leaving to -- have been recalled to active duty. I had a practice of bringing officers up to my department -- headquarters with their families to wish them well and have a military liaison officers meet with the family so they could be taken care of while the officer was gone.

I would have given him a coin like this at that time. My understanding is that CNN received a package that included a replica of that coin with three bullet holes.

MORGAN: Right, which he had shot or it had been shot in some way. It also had some duct type over a part of the package which contained a message to you. It said, "Thanks but no thanks, Will," he calls you, "Bratton."

Any idea what that could be about or do you assume it has to do with the fact that you happen to be running the LAPD when he got -- he got laid off?

BRATTON: Actually I only became aware of this other package about an hour and a half ago. I was notified by CNN security that they had received it, they wanted to bring it to my attention. My understanding is they had forwarded -- they had photocopied the items and sent it along to the FBI today or yesterday, I guess, and -- but had sent the original package back to him.

So my awareness of this is almost as recent as yours. Certainly very disturbing. In the sense that the bullet holes through the coin and the specific referencing of me on the duct tape. As to what there was a series of letters as to what they stand for, speculation, I think on all of this.

MORGAN: The letters are I.M.O.A. Some are speculating -- it's pure speculation -- it stands for "Imagine a More Open America."

BRATTON: Again I -- in terms of -- that's not a term I'm familiar with.

MORGAN: There was also a DVD, the contents of which I'm not aware of yet. This is part of the package that was sent to Anderson Cooper. But it says, "Chris Dorner Exoneration" on it. So clearly all part of his bid to say that he was not guilty of whatever he feels he had been accused of, which led to his departure.

BRATTON: Again, this is the first time I'm hearing about the DVD disc, so it's -- this is unfolding even as what you and I are conversing.

MORGAN: In terms of the ongoing investigation, he has said in the manifesto that he obtained his weapons legally and that he's a top shot, a top marksman. He has a number of weapons including a sniper rifle and possibly some assault rifles. Clearly a fluid and dangerous situation.

BRATTON: Incredibly dangerous, and the fact that he's apparently now up in the Bear Mountain area, which is a very popular area of California for skiing.

MORGAN: It's about 18 miles east of Los Angeles?

BRATTON: That's correct, and it's very high mountains, very rugged mountains, and -- so if he's up in that area, incredibly difficult terrain to try and explore and search. At the same time, he may have left his truck there, which was just reported burned. And as to, is he still there, has he moved on, that's unknown at this time.

MORGAN: What is the best thing that people can do if they have any sighting of this guy?

BRATTON: Well, certainly I think as the police forces in the California area are encouraging citizens, one, if you see this individual, and he's a very distinctive looking individual, huge. He's physically a huge individual. That report it to the police. Give him no indication that you're aware of him. Don't try to -- interfere with any of his activities.

He is an incredible dangerous individual. His police skills make him even more so. You've referenced the significant weapons that he has access to. And that's a pretty significant arsenal in the hands of a trained individual such as he is.

MORGAN: He obviously originally targeted the daughter of LAPD Captain Randy Quan, Monica, and her fiance, killing them both. Do you remember the captain? Have you had any dealings with him?

BRATTON: No, the captain, if I understand it, had retired prior to my time at the LAPD, it was in the period of 2002-2009, so I had no awareness or any exposure to him.

MORGAN: Well, Chief Bratton, thank you very much for coming in. Obviously, an ongoing, very worrying situation.

BRATTON: Yes. Let's hope it ends well. MORGAN: Yes.

BRATTON: Thank you.

MORGAN: I endorse that. Thank you.

When we come back, I'll talk to a psychologist who worked on the Unabomber case. Why he says this one is especially difficult. Also the latest on that monster storm bearing down on the East Coast.


MORGAN: We have more information for you on that package the suspected LAPD shooter sent to CNN. A package that included a souvenir coin from former Los Angeles Police Chief Bratton, wrapped in duct tape. On the tape there's a handwritten description, "Thanks but no thanks, Will Bratton." As well the letters which may now be "1 M.O.A." that may actually mean -- is an accuracy measurement of a sniper rifle.

Also in that package was a DVD labeled "Christopher Gettler Interview." Gettler is the man who was arrested in 2007 led to Chris Dorner's complaint against another officer.

I want to bring in now psychologist, Xavier Amador, a consultant for the Department of Justice whose LEAP Institute trains police to intervene in crisis situations. He worked on the Unabomber case. He says Dorner's rant offers disturbing insights into the man now being hunted by police. And he joins me via Skype.

Welcome back to you, Javier. I'm sorry that once again it's in such awful circumstances. And from all you've seen, from this manifesto that this gunman has put out, this alleged gunman, what is your reading of his state of mind and his motivation?

XAVIER AMADOR, LEAP INSTITUTE, PSYCHOLOGIST: There's a tremendous amount of evidence of somebody who is extremely confused in this 6,000-word manifesto. I could show this to a first-year resident in psychiatry, and there are clear signs of mental illness, frankly. A formal psychotic thoughts (INAUDIBLE) scattered throughout the manifesto.

MORGAN: I mean, there are -- there are numerous references to people in the media, myself included, and many other CNN colleagues, many people on other networks, random celebrities, politicians and so on. Is there any thought process there that you can see, which makes any kind of sense? Is he an attention seeker? What is going on here?

AMADOR: Clearly, this is not about attention. This is all about -- if there's a theme throughout his manifesto, Piers, it's vindication, but it's not just this one incident that he talks about in his manifesto. He accuses the LAPD of taking away his naval career, his relationship with his mother, with his sister, of ruining his life. It's psychotic thinking.

It's almost like a black hole when you are looking through the lens of psychosis. This is not an antisocial personal we're talking about. And LAPD would not have hired someone with an antisocial personality.

You know previously on your program we've talked about two paths to this kind of situation, this kind of suspect, this kind of person. And one is an anti-social personality, someone who's been involved in criminal behavior much of their life, very little empathy, and the other is somebody with a brain disorder. I can't diagnose him obviously, but I can look at and assess what he's written, his state of mind as evidenced in his manifesto. He is like a black hole of paranoia, blaming the LAPD for everything, and now he's going to vindicate his name. This is the really, frankly, completely illogical, and to use terms that many people used and I don't like the term but crazy thought, that somehow killing police officers will vindicate his name.

It's -- it's completely psychotic. And there are many examples throughout. He talks about first grade incidents when he was bullied, and asked journalists like yourself and others to investigate that he was never a bully. This is not someone who is thinking straight. This is somebody who -- if there's an opportunity to speak with him, needs to be approached and somebody who very, very likely who has a very serious mental illness. Untreated mental illness.

MORGAN: And now that he has killed people, now that he's gone to that stage and killed fairly indiscriminately now and attacked police officers who tried to apprehend him, how dangerous has he now become in your experience?


Because he's got all the LAPD hunting him down, but they're his target.

AMADOR: Well, it's not just him being dangerous. It's the situation. As you just said, the LAPD are hunting him down. They're his target. And the LAPD are, you know, understandably concerned not only for public's safety, but their own safety. They've been singled out.

And so the situation is one that's highly volatile. The one thing that's happening here is he is reaching out to the media and if a dialogue could be started with him, if he could -- if someone from the LAPD, a hostage negotiator, even though no one has been held hostage, but in a sense, the community is being held hostage. The department is being held hostage. If a dialogue could be started with this man, that's another way to end this. Not only a manhunt and a firefight.

MORGAN: Dr. Amador, thank you very much indeed.

The first victims of the alleged LAPD shooter were Monica Quan and her fiance. Her father represented Christopher Dorner from the review board when he lost his job.

Joining me now on the phone is one of Monica's friends, Rich Kitagawa.

Mr. Kitagawa, thank you very much for joining me. And I must say from the outset how incredibly sorry I am for the loss of your friend. It must be devastating to you, to everyone that knew her, and a very scary time, I would think, for her family. When did you hear the news and what was your reaction?

RICH KITAGAWA, FRIEND OF MONICA QUAN (via phone): Thanks for having me. But I found out Monday. I woke up, I turned my computer on, and found it on Facebook. And immediately went to one of the news outlets and started picking it up. And throughout the day on Monday, several of us were calling each other, trying to share information, what we knew, and then I talked to a few people that knew her who were a little closer with her, and they kind of confirmed what was going on. And then Monday night, we had the candlelight vigil at the -- at the high school.

MORGAN: Now you are a basketball coach, and I believe that Monica was, too. Did you know her father?

KITAGAWA: Yes, I've known Monica and her family since Monica was about 11 or 12 years old. I know the family. They have always been, you know, really good to me. Very generous to me, really caring people.

MORGAN: And the fiance, Monica's fiance, Keith Lawrence, who was also killed, I presumed that you knew him as well.

KITAGAWA: No, actually it's funny. I know they had been dating a long time. And -- except for photos and -- you know, information we share on Facebook, I never actually personally met him. The last time I talked to Monica was probably around November. She was talking to me about a player that I had coached in her recruiting a little bit. And then we were kind of sharing some stories about coaching.

She's now at the college level. I'm at the high school level. So we were kind of sharing some things. But I didn't know her fiance, no.

MORGAN: Did Monica ever mention to you any fears of being a police captain's daughter? Was that ever something she was concerned about?

KITAGAWA: No, no. I'll be honest, you know, it's -- they're a very tight-knit family. There's never been anything, you know, they have always been very close. You know, when they're with people, you can tell they're a tight family. It's never been something that was talked about. Never from any of them, even from the parents' side that they were concerned about their kids or having to worry about their kids. I have coached children of other police officers. It's not something that I have ever heard anybody really talk about. You know, so --

MORGAN: It's obviously an ongoing situation. There are friends of Monica's, maybe family even you've spoken to, are they all concerned about what may happen next? Is everybody in a state of terror about this?

KITAGAWA: Yes. You know, as we kind of hear the news and we hear the things going on and the --you know, the manifesto and we, you know, kind of heard all these things, yes, people are concerned. A few people had even talked to me about they had been contacted by CNN about, you know, talking to you folks. And people are concerned. You know, I actually had one mother tell me, please be careful because you don't know if this guy is capable of.

You know, I am truly in disbelief about everything that has happened. And you know, I just want people to know how much we all are hurting, how much we all miss her, how terrible we all feel, and you know, we don't want this to be happening to other people. We hope this guy gets caught before he hurts other people.

MORGAN: Yes. I think that you echo everyone's sentiments. Rich Kitagawa, thank you very much for joining me. I do appreciate it.

KITAGAWA: Thanks for having me.

MORGAN: Coming next, we're tracking a monster winter storm set to bury the northeast. I'll get the latest from CNN's chief meteorologist Chad Myers.


MORGAN: Breaking weather news tonight. An epic storm is threatening the East Coast, one that could drop up to 3 feet of snow on Boston and create a nightmare over most of the country.

Chief meteorologist Chad Myers is in the CNN's Severe Weather Center with more.

Chad, where are we right now? We're hours away from something colliding. Nobody seems to being quite sure exactly what they may be. Are you any nearer to knowing?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: I think we're 12 hours from the snow starting so we should know exactly at this point in time. As you take a look and think about what we used to be able to do as meteorologists we can give you 12 hours' notice. That's about it. Well, with this one we try to give you 48 hours and I suppose the computers didn't do very well. Some were saying 30, some were saying one inch of snow.

So now they're coming together. Now they're settling down. Now they have an answer. So here's the low. It's making rain in Georgia. It's heading to the northeast. Here's the snow that's making very cold air here up into parts of Michigan and Wisconsin. They're going to meet right there east of Massachusetts.

Here's how it goes. I'll put it into motion. Here goes this low. Here comes the cold. When the warm and cold come together, this storm is going to bomb out. We're going to have winds of hurricane force strength into Massachusetts, into Maine, even into Vermont and New Hampshire. So this wind is going to blow water onto the shore. We're going to erode some of the shore, but also make probably some flooding there in the coast and probably the harbors of Boston and the like.

Twenty three million people under a blizzard warning today. I'm not sure I could ever say that before, 23 million under a blizzard warning, from New Jersey to Laguardia, right on back into Islip, and on into Boston. The major areas where most of the people live all blizzarded tonight.

Then that starts about 6:00 a.m. tomorrow. That's when that warning starts. There are two models still that don't agree. So I'm going to show you both. I'm going to show you the best case scenario and the worst. So the best case scenario is one model that doesn't believe those two are actually going to get together. It believes the rain is going to go too fast, the cold air is not going to get there in time. We're going to get 12 inches in Boston, seven inches in New York.

Here's the deal, we're going to get two to three inches of liquid equivalent water falling out of the sky. If it's all snow, that's 20 to 30 inches of snow for you. New York City is not going to get all of that. There's going to be some rain that falls down. So even though the potential is there for 30 inches, it isn't going to happen because for a while tomorrow afternoon, it's actually going to rain.

So here's basically the worst scenario of the two models. This one actually believes they're going to collide and make one big storm. So 14 for New York City, but 34 in Boston, 34 in Portland. And then all of a sudden, Piers, you have winds of 60. We're never going to see 16 inches in Albany. It will be a six foot drift or the bare ground, as this wind just blows this snow everywhere.

MORGAN: And for those of us like me, Chad, who have an early morning flight out of here to England, what are the chances of any flights getting out tomorrow?

MYERS: What day would that fly be?

MORGAN: Tomorrow morning.

MYERS: I'm afraid -- There are still planes in. And that's the good news. Planes are still getting into New York. They're going to want to get all those planes out. So that would be good for you because they don't want those planes sitting there with 30 inches of snow on the wings. The wings just kind of hanging there.

So yes, you still have a chance. The airports are not closed. Boston completely shuts down at 3:30. The buses, the trains, the rail, the boats, everything at 3:30. So in the morning, if it hasn't started yet, I think you'll probably still get out of there.

MORGAN: Good news for me, but it may be a rough weekend for anyone on the east coast, as Chad said. So my best wishes to everyone out there and just stay tight and keep safe is the message, I guess. MYERS: That's right. I just want to get to this real quick because I have it already here; 2,933 flights have already been pre- canceled. But maybe your plane hasn't been yet.

MORGAN: It's hanging on in there.

MYERS: Good.

MORGAN: Chad Myers, thanks very much.

Coming up, America's mayor, Rudy Giuliani, on everything from guns on the streets to drones in the sky. And then the mother of former kidnap victim Jaycee Dugard talks about helping six-year-old Ethan recover from his hostage ordeal.


MORGAN: Rudy Giuliani made it his mission to get guns off the streets when he was mayor of New York. And he was famous for his law and order stunts. He's the perfect person to talk tonight about the latest on the gun debate. Rudy, welcome back.

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Very nice to be with you, Piers.

MORGAN: Where do you think we are with this whole gun control debate right now?

GIULIANI: Hard to say because there are so many aspects to it and so many different positions. I'll tell you my view on it. I'm not sure if it will happen that way. I believe that reasonable restrictions on guns is something that should be done, that can be done sensibly. I don't think that gun control is the answer to violence. If it was, there would be no violence in Chicago. And of course, there's a tremendous amount of violence in Chicago, and much less in New York. They both have gun control.

The difference between Chicago and New York, and why New York is so much safer is the police do a much better job of seizing guns. They're very aggressive in taking guns away from criminals. That's how I brought down gun violence in New York back in the '90s. And that's how Mayor Bloomberg and Commissioner Kelly are doing it in New York.

So what do I think would work? First of all, I think background checks make all the sense in the world. I think if you're going to possess a gun, there's no reason why you shouldn't have to take a background check to make sure that you're not mentally unfit, to make sure you're of the correct age, to make sure that you don't have a criminal problem.

I think that makes all the sense in the world. And the more we can get that as close to, you know, everyone who has a gun, the better of we're going to be. Restrictions on assault weapons, that gets to be a little more difficult because of the definition of assault weapons. When I say assault weapons, most people think a military weapon. Well, I would certainly be in favor of military, true military weapons being banned.

But not if you start talking about guns that are really semiautomatic guns.

MORGAN: What about the AR-15? The reason I ask is the AR-15 has been used extensively by the military in the last few decades. And for all intents and purposes -- I fired one this week in Texas -- it behaves like a military style assault rifle. And those that try to describe it otherwise I think are talking nonsense.

What is wrong with forcing through something which actually reduces the ability of the criminally minded and the mentally deranged from getting their hands on this gun that I'm currently being seen firing here?

GIULIANI: Absolutely no harm done if you do that, if you do it right. Here's the problem. You can't just legislate on the gun control side of it. You have to legislate on the mental health side of it.

MORGAN: Right.

GIULIANI: Because you don't want to have a law like this, and then three quarters of the people who are mentally disabled or mentally unfit aren't in the database because of privacy concerns. So if you want to do this, you're going to have to legislate a lot more openness in the records of people who are mentally unfit.

MORGAN: Let's turn to Dick Morris. I interviewed him last night. He has been turfed out of Fox. He said some interesting stuff last night. First of all, what was your reaction to him being fired by Fox and being called the worst pundit of last year?

GIULIANI: Well, Dick is a friend of mine for 20 years. And I am a very loyal friend. And I think Dick is -- well, I honestly think Dick is a genius. Did he make a mistake on the last election? Yeah. So did I.

MORGAN: What about his reason for why he thought Romney, in the end, did lose, confounding all Dick Morris' predictions? Watch this.


MORRIS: The real issue is why did Romney lose. Well, the immediate answer is the storm. And in fact, I wrote a column I was just showing you four days before election day, entitled --

MORGAN: You mean Hurricane Sandy?

MORRIS: Yeah. "In the Last Few Hours, Sudden Danger Signs in Polling," saying that Obama could be coming back because of the storm. The fact of the matter is that before Hurricane Sandy started, Obama was trailing Mitt Romney.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: A lot of Republicans have been ridiculing this today, Rudy, but does he have a point? Do you think that the hurricane in itself changed all of the momentum? Or is that really just a convenient excuse?

GIULIANI: No, it's somewhere in the middle. I think the hurricane had an impact on the election. Since Obama won by a wider margin than we anticipated, I can't say, and I would be uncomfortable saying that was the main reason he won.

But if you would like to list five reasons why he won, I think the hurricane is there as one of the five, maybe the third or fourth reason. I think the main reason he won, just having the conversation today with a group of Democrats and Republicans in Houston about this -- and they all agreed, both sides, the Democrats just out-organized the Republicans. Their poll operation was the best that we have ever had.

Now, I think what might have happened if there was no storm is I think Obama still would have won, but I think it would have been a much closer election.

MORGAN: Marco Rubio is on the cover of "Time Magazine," being proclaimed as the savior of the Republican party. What was your reaction when you saw that?

GIULIANI: I'm a very, very big Marco Rubio fan. I was one of the first people to support him when he ran for the Senate. I have been completely pleased with his performance in the Senate. I think he's taking a very courageous, helpful view on immigration, because you need some Republicans to get out front, that kind of deal with the idea of legalization.

I spoke yesterday at the Reagan Library. Yesterday was Ronald Reagan's 102nd birthday. People forget that Ronald Reagan legalized a couple million people that had come here undocumented illegally, because he understood that if people are here and they're working and they're working hard, we cannot throw out 12 million people. We have to do something sensible with them.

I think Marco going out and taking that position, he's now brought a lot of Republicans along with him, kind of adds to the work that John McCain has done, Lindsay Graham. And that's the position that I have always had, that we have to stop illegal immigration at the border, but we have to deal sensibly and humanely with the people who are here.

MORGAN: Finally, let's talk about drones briefly. I can't help thinking when I see this drones debate that had it been a Republican president, the Democrats would have been all over this, and quite rightly. And I do think the Democrats and President Obama have got off pretty lightly so far.

What is your position on this? I mean, at what stage does the drone activity cease to be legitimate targeting of terrorism and become a kind of glorified, very brutal, very lethal fishing expedition?

GIULIANI: Well, it has to be done very carefully, very uniquely. You have to be 100 percent sure you've got the right person and you're not making a mistake. I agree with you completely that if this had been done by George Bush or any other Republican, we'd be talking about hearings before Congress. We would have some people talking about impeachment.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why George Bush got so much heat for water boarding three people, and President Obama has killed scores of people. And I probably agree with the decisions that President Obama made, so I'm not saying he shouldn't have made those decisions. And I can't say they weren't the right decisions. But I think those decisions would have been scrutinized very heavily.

From the point of view of a terrorist, would you rather be water boarded or killed? If you're water boarded, at least you're alive. Also from our point of view, I don't know, I would like to see a few more of these people captured rather than killed, because I would like to get information from them. Maybe it's my ex-investigator background or prosecutor background or U.S. attorney background, but I see every one of these people as a fertile source of information.

Even if you're not going to do water boarding or that stuff, just intense questioning. I mean, after all, that's how we got bin Laden. Put the torture aside, we did it from a lot of good questioning of a lot of people.

MORGAN: Rudy, as always, compelling stuff. Thank you very much for joining me.

GIULIANI: Thank you, Piers. Always a pleasure.

MORGAN: Coming up next, a mother's message. I'll talk to the mother of former kidnap victim Jaycee Dugard about helping six year old Ethan recover from his appalling hostage ordeal.



CINDY STEINER, ETHAN'S NEIGHBOR: Soon as I heard about it, all I could do was break down and cry and say, thank you, Jesus.


MORGAN: Three days since six-year-old Ethan was rescued from an underground bunker in Alabama. His kidnapper is dead. Ethan is back with his mother. But how will the ordeal affect his life?

Joining me now is someone who truly can help. Terry Probyn is the mother of Jaycee Dugard, who was 11 when she was abducted off the street. Jaycee was held prisoner by a convicted sex offender for 18 years. And Terry joins me now.

Terry, thank you so much for joining me. I guess a lot of people will think of you and think of Jaycee whenever this type of story happens. And they'll be curious, what kind of emotions do you go through when you hear of this kind of thing?

TERRY PROBYN, MOTHER OF JAYCEE DUGARD: I'll tell you, I share that mother's joy. I share her heartache. And I also share the fact that she is going to have to go through a huge healing process. And I would say just take your time and do that.

MORGAN: Obviously very different in a sense that you lost your daughter for 18 long, terrible years, although you never gave up the faith and never gave up hope. In this case, a much shorter period of time. But in terms of the psychological damage, it must still have been very traumatic for this boy.

What kind of advice would you give his mother if you had the chance?

PROBYN: I would say surround yourself with family. You've got the love of your children and your son back. And also it's so important to find a trusted source for -- a trusted source to help the healing process. I know in our situation, the national center for missing and exploited children was our trusted source. And they referred us to Transitioning Families. And that helped the reunification process.

If anything, I would just tell mom and family to take your time and, you know, protect your privacy and give yourself time to come out of the shock that I experienced. I know it was probably about a week or two weeks before I could really think things through.

And a lot happened in the beginning, as you know. And you know, we were bombarded. And I just say take your time. Do the healing process and rely on trusted support such as the national center.

I know our foundation was built to give back to those that helped us and to also help the reunification of other families that go through this trauma.

MORGAN: Have you had the chance to talk to Jaycee about what happened with this little boy Ethan?

PROBYN: Jaycee and I talk, yes. She feels for the little guy, too, as we all do. Also to the family, Mr. Poland's family, you know, he sacrificed his life, and he's a true hero. And Jaycee and I both agree that he should be commended for his efforts.

MORGAN: Yes, I completely agree with that. How is Jaycee? We spoke about a year ago and she seemed to be doing really well, all things considered. How is her progress coming along?

PROBYN: Active in the foundation, as we all are. We want to give back. We want to send our love and our support to families in this situation. And we're here to help.

MORGAN: And her two little children, how are they doing?

PROBYN: Very well, thank you.

MORGAN: Are you very -- you are obviously very protective of them. Are they able to lead a kind of normal life now?

PROBYN: That's what the privacy is all about, is the ability for them to live as normal a life as possible. You know, nothing is normal after something like this happens to you. And you have to accept that fact. And you have to move forward.

MORGAN: This is a difficult question. It's one I wanted just to ask you and see what your reaction would be. In the case of Ethan, the kidnapper was killed. I guess there's a finality to that. In the case of you and your daughter, the kidnapper is still alive. He's going through this very long extended jail sentence and won't probably ever come out.

Is that worse for you? Does part of you wish he had, too, lost his life, when eventually the kidnapping was exposed?

PROBYN: You know, I don't place a whole lot of thought on that. He's not in our lives. He will never be in our lives. He's dead to us.

MORGAN: Yeah, I can completely understand that. Listen, it's been great to talk to you again, Terry. Do send Jaycee my very best, and to all your family. It's great that we're able to talk having seen that that terrible thing happened in a happy way for young Ethan and thankfully not too long. And we wish him and his mother and his family all the very best.

Great to talk to you again.

PROBYN: Me, too. Best wishes.

MORGAN: We'll be right back.


MORGAN: Tomorrow, the latest on the massive storm taking dead aim at the northeast and New England. It's a huge and dangerous system bringing blizzard-like conditions and forecasts of up to three feet of snow. Some say it could be one for the record books. So we better brace ourselves.

That's all for us tonight. Coming up next, a special documentary presentation, Jake Tapper Reports on "American Hero." It's a compelling show. I recommend you watch.