Return to Transcripts main page
Jodi in Boys Undies?
Aired February 11, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias testimony, day four.
Did she accuse her dead ex of rape?
JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: We fell asleep. I woke up and he was on top of me. He had already penetrated.
PINSKY: And what about his Valentine`s Day gift to her? Spider-Man underpants.
ARIAS: He asked me to try them on.
PINSKY: Was Jodi lying on the stand today? One of my guests says yes.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome to the program.
I would also like to welcome my co-host for the week, former prosecutor Loni Coombs.
Joining us as well, Lisa Bloom, attorney at the Bloom Firm and legal analyst for avo.com. She has a blog there about this very case we`ll be discussing tonight.
And Janine Driver, a body language expert and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me."
Loni just says she`s the human lie detector and she`s someone we need to talk to tonight because everything hinges on whether or not Jodi is lying or not. There was explosive sexual testimony.
We`re going to pick up where we left off last week, with a story about little boy`s underwear. A reminder, this is not for young viewers. Just - - so please, pay attention.
LONI COOMBS, CO-HOST: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. First off, let`s take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The other item you received from Mr. Alexander was Spider-Man underwear.
ARIAS: I don`t remember the size, but they were definitely for little boys. The seat of the underwear fit, but the leg holes, the openings, were too small. He wanted me to wear the boys` underwear. He had a lot of anal sex fantasies. He wanted me to wear the boys` underwear and have anal sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us now, "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas.
So, Beth, where is the defense going with this, first of all? And what is it like for this poor guy`s family to sit through all this?
BETH KARAS, IN SESSION CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, the family sits there with looks of disdain, derision, grimaces, smirks on their faces. Two sisters and a brother. He does have four sisters and three brothers, but three are always there.
The little boys` underwear, the Spider-Man underwear, some may say it comes from a scene in "Charlie`s Angels" when Cameron Diaz was dancing in them.
However, Jodi Arias said she thought it was a little weird and she went along with that. Now, Travis Alexander had listed at least six fantasies that he had. She told the jury about them today and they acted out at least three of them.
And one of the fantasies was for her to wear little boys underwear, the Spider-Man underwear, and he would have anal sex with her. Now, we learn later in the day that she walked in on him masturbating to photos of little boys, like little boys 5 or 6 years old, she said. So it leaves one to conclude he fantasized that she was a little boy wearing these underwear and he`s having anal sex with her. And they would do that a lot, she said.
PINSKY: Loni, I want to ask something right off the top. Why does the judge allow the defense to drag this poor victim through the mud like this? Isn`t there some propriety issues?
PINSKY: Yes. Tell me about that.
COOMBS: Yes, not even just propriety, there has to be some truth to it. And honestly, the judge sits there as the guardian of the integrity of the case. And what I am extremely about in this case is I don`t know that the judge is doing her job here. She had this hearing where the defense said we want to go into this whole child molestation theory. You know what? In every jury trial, the defense has theories they want to put out there, but the judge listens to it and says, well, do you have a legitimate basis to bring this up on?
If there is no evidence, no corroborating evidence to found this on, then you don`t get to just throw it up on the wall and let the jury hear it because, yes, the prosecutor can argue it and do cross examination, like everybody says wait for the prosecutor to cross examine, but it`s like unringing the bell.
And that`s why it`s the judge`s job to sit there --
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: OK, but Loni --
PINSKY: Lisa --
COOMBS: Lisa, I`d love to hear what you have to say because I really think the judge is wrong here.
BLOOM: Loni, you`re a great prosecutor, but this is a death penalty case.
BLOOM: And I agree, everything she`s saying is disgusting.
BLOOM: And she`s probably lying, I agree.
But in a death penalty case, we have to let the defendant testify. We have to let them put forth every theory, and the defense testimony is evidence. There is no requirement under the law that there`d be corroborating evidence.
PINSKY: Lisa, I want to make sure I`m hearing you right.
So, you`re saying a defendant can get on the stand and say as many horrible, awful things that they want to just on a whim without any evidence? I guess in this case, they have an expert who`s going to corroborate that this all makes sense, which, of course, you could put it all together in such a way that it does.
BLOOM: She doesn`t even need that. She just -- an attorney can`t put on a client who they know is lying. But Jodi Arias swears that she`s telling the truth. I`m going to assume her defense attorney has no reason to believe that she`s lying. No evidence to the contrary.
PINSKY: Well, she never lied before, Lisa. We know she`s not a liar!
BLOOM: We`re not going to put somebody to death in America without giving them a fair trial, without giving them a chance to put on all their evidence.
PINSKY: All right. OK.
BLOOM: I think she`ll be lying, I think she`ll be convicted. But come on. Let`s not railroad the woman.
PINSKY: OK. Go ahead, Loni. I want to hear from Janine about -- our human lie detector, whether there`s any basis in all this. But go ahead.
COOMBS: And here`s my concern, Dr. Drew, you know this. As an expert, when you speak as an expert and give your opinion, people listen to you and trust you because you`re an expert. When she has defense experts come in and talk about what she said, it gives an aura of credibility and truthfulness to what she said.
PINSKY: And here`s the reality. She has put together -- the defense team has done a fantastic job of weaving a story that makes perfect sense. It`s like a brick wall where every brick fits.
The problem is, Janine, even though it all hangs together, the overall arc of this is something built on, like, mud. It`s going to sink under its own weight even though the wall itself, you know, using this brick analogy, is sound, it`s built on something, I suspect, that`s completely -- has no foundation.
JANINE DRIVER, AUTHOR, "YOU CAN`T LIE TO ME": Well, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: So my question to you, Janine, is she lying or isn`t she? What do you think? What do you see today?
DRIVER: I think she`s lying. She`s a compulsive liar. We see her lie quite a bit.
Think about it, when she did these interviews with the media where she came out and said no jury is going to find me guilty. What did she do? She looks up, she talks to us. This is her baseline.
Here when she is in court. More often than not, we see Jodi, like for instance, her with the underwear, we her eyes looking down. And when she`s looking down, Dr. Drew, it`s almost like her eyes are closed. This is a sign we often see with people who are being deceptive.
It tends to be a stall technique, they`re creating their answer as they`re looking down. This is a deviation in their baseline behavior. So, this is a hot spot.
Now, we look verbally, Dr. Drew. We have three major hot spots verbally. Number one, she`s asked, you know, did you try not to have sex? She said, I try to be abstinent. I try is current tense. I`m looking for past tense. I was trying to be abstinent, I still try to do that today.
She only talks in the current tense, not the past tense. This is a hot spot.
Second hot spot. Did you confront him when he had sex with you and you were sleeping? She said, quote-unquote, "didn`t have the courage." She drops the eye here. This is another hot spot.
We say "I" when we want to associate with someone, when we actually are telling the truth. She drops the "I". Didn`t have the courage.
Last verbal hot spot, Dr. Drew, with deception is she talked about, did you want to have sex while you sleep? You know, the question was asked, would you like to have sex while you`re sleeping? She said this: not something I think about.
Dr. Drew, yes or no, would you like me to smash your head with a pole tonight?
PINSKY: I would not like that. How about that?
DRIVER: So, what am I looking for? I`m looking for a yes, I`m looking for a no. Not -- you didn`t say to me, Dr. Drew, well, it`s not something I thought about.
So, you just ask, yes or no, loaded with deception.
PINSKY: Thank you for that review. I want to bring back Abe Abdelhadi. He`s back with us exclusively. He dated Jodi briefly.
Abe, you actually were brought I guess in court again today. You heard what Janine was saying. What`s your reaction to all this?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS (via telephone): Well, she`s dead on the money, and to listen to some of the testimony and to catch some of it after I got home from a couple of appointments, it blew my mind that, (a), she had the timeline wrong, and then again, you know, her reckless disregard for the truth which seems to be synonymous with her very name just really upset me.
There was a couple things she had mentioned about Travis being upset when he saw us together. It wasn`t even the right time that we could even have been together at the convention. I saw her in passing.
PINSKY: What do you do with the extraordinary allegations about him being into pedophilia?
ABDELHADI: Well, I honestly recommend the defense attorney take a class in marketing, because I would like to know what 30-year-old person who was nannied and weaned on the Internet has any pictures, printed matter. Listen, I`m a 49-year-old man. I come from the age where we used to have to steal our dad`s "Playboys" and take them into our clubhouse when we were 11.
I`ve had my stuff on my personal pictures when since I was forever, and I`m 49 now. And, by the way, it`s hidden like James Bond. So, if the police can`t find Travis` stuff, it means there was nothing there to be found.
By the way, he had roommates. When I was in college, I had roommates, and I don`t mean to be too much information, but Good Lord, you don`t do that kind of stuff. You`re like a spy.
And Dr. Drew, you`re a male. You know what I`m talking about. You remember the old days.
PINSKY: Abe, thank you for accusing me that. I appreciate that. To all my viewers at home (INAUDILBE)
ABDELHADI: I`m just saying.
PINKSY: We get the point. I am just saying, I absolutely 100 percent agree with you, the guys that are into that are into it and there would be evidence.
This whole thing, Abe, there`s all these allegations and essentially zero evidence.
Thank you, Beth Karas.
Next up, we`re going to meet the woman who had to look away when some of the graphic images were shown in court. We have the exclusive with two of Travis Alexander`s friends.
And Abe will stay with us.
And we`re all back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: He wanted me to wear one of those French made outfits and I woke up and he was on top of me. Pulled me on top of him and then started pushing my head and shoulder under the covers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For what purpose?
ARIAS: Well, I presumed oral sex. I kind of felt like a prostitute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is what Jodi Arias testified about, what she says Travis Alexander did to her. I am back with my co-host this week, former prosecutor Loni Coombs, who I keep mispronouncing as Colmes, I apologize for that. And I`ll do it and I`ll mispronounce it again. No doubt, because that`s the way I am. I don`t learn.
COOMBS: Keep working on it.
PINSKY: Our next guest covered her eyes when she heard and saw Jodi Arias graphic testimony in court. That is Pam Larsen avoiding some disturbing images that were shown to the jury.
She joins us exclusively with Julie Haslem.
I hope I`m pronouncing your name correctly Julie. They were close friends of Travis Alexander.
I`m going to go to Pam first. Now, we saw Pam how you reacted to the testimony -- that was I think a couple days ago, if I remember right -- and we had to sit through horrible, graphic, mudslinging today.
Where are you at? How do you feel? Who is Travis Alexander as compared to how Jodi paints him?
PAM LARSEN, KNEW TRAVIS ALEXANDER: An entirely different person. He was an amazing young man. Everybody loved Travis. He was one of the kindest, had the most wonderful heart of anybody I had ever met.
COOMBS: How did you know him? What was your relationship with him?
LARSEN: I knew him through Prepaid Legal.
PINSKY: You were salespeople together.
And, Julie, you know Jodi, or you had the chance to meet her I guess around Travis. What were your impressions of her?
JULIE HASLEM, KNEW TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Well, my impression of her in the beginning was that there was just something off about her. When you looked into her eyes, they were just dark and empty, and I just felt a little crept out being around her.
PINSKY: Julie, I`m going to interrupt you for a second.
Janine, we`ve heard that impression over and over again. What are people talking about?
DRIVER: They`re saying that she has no affect, right? So, this is why I love Jodi Arias being on the stand. We know that juries mirror the emotion of someone who is on the stand. When there`s no affect, this sends a message to us at home that the jury will feel nothing for Jodi Arias.
Why? We are now seeing this zombie that people, Travis Alexander`s friends have been talking about now for weeks, for months, saying they matter. At first they thought she was pretty, but there was something spooky about her. There was just no emotion. There was something scary. They didn`t want her around their kids or she could no longer visit at the halfway point.
And now the jury is seeing it. Some of the jury has checked out. When we hear earlier, Beth was talking about on Nancy Grace earlier tonight, some of the jury are looking down. When we look down, we look down with emotions.
So the jury is getting emotional, but not the kind of emotion Jodi Arias needs. They are not being sad or feeling bad for her.
COOMBS: You know, Pam or Julie, I`d be curious to know. Did either of you ever see Jodi Arias with Travis, and did she ever seem obsessed with him? Because there`s a lot of talk about him being abusive to her, and I`m hearing over and over again from the stand over this last few days that despite the horrible things she`s saying he did, she kept going back, she kept going back.
And I was wondering, in their interaction, did you see any of this kind of focused, obsessive behavior on her part towards him?
HASLEM: I absolutely saw that. I have mentioned that before. She was very clingy to him. She definitely was obsessed with him. She didn`t want him out of her sight, and, I mean, we`ve heard testimony of that. We`ve heard her go through his text messages, go through his e-mails. That`s an obsessed person.
PINSKY: Let`s get someone from the audience in here.
Sheila in Texas is a caller. Sheila, go ahead.
SHEILA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
SHEILA: I`ve been listening to this. There is no way that what she did to Travis is self-defense. There is just no way. And the reason I say that, I`ve listened to her tell her story, horrendous story. Even she uses the word slaughtered.
SHEILA: Slaughtered and self-defense, it`s not the same.
PINSKY: And, Loni, there is a sort of reasonable force as part of self-defense.
COOMBS: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
COOMBS: And this will come up when they talk about the law. But, first, there has to be a reasonable perception that`s what`s coming at her is deadly force, and we`ve seen the pictures. He was taking a shower naked, right?
And then her response has to be reasonably equal to the force she`s, you know, receiving, reasonably, and the 29 stab wounds and the slit from ear to ear and the shot to the head? That is in no way reasonable to what she perceived. It will be interesting to see what she says was about to happen when she had to respond that way.
PINSKY: Yes. I mean, it`s just bizarre. Everybody told tight here.
Next up, we have more with our exclusive friends of Travis`.
And later we have a jury. The people I select out of the courtroom. The question I`m going to ask them, are they becoming -- and I think we have one of them becoming more sympathetic with Jodi. Why and what the other one feels. There is a lot of drama in the courtroom. We`ll talk to them after this.
PINSKY: I am back with my co-host this week, attorney Loni Combs.
And we are talking with Travis Alexander`s friends, Pam Larsen and Julie Haslem. And a reminder for viewers, if there are children in the room, we`re dealing with adult themes tonight. It was very difficult material spelled out in court today.
Now, are you guys -- now, we know that Travis was Mormon. Are you guys Mormon as well?
PINSKY: You are Mormon.
COOMBS: I have a question. It`s interesting to hear the way Jodi is kind of painting the story. As Mormons, and I`m assuming there is probably a number of Mormons on the jury since Mesa is a high percentage of Mormons there --
PINSKY: I did not know that, but that`s interesting. OK.
COOMBS: Yes. So, do you think what she`s saying, the details and graphic sexual fantasies resonate with Mormons perhaps in a different way? Is it more distasteful? Is it more offensive?
PINSKY: Especially -- you guys before you answer -- especially when she had just been baptized, she was claiming to be -- well, she was claiming a sort of, what would you call, like a proprietary membership. You know, like she`s -- and yet soiling the whole thing at the same time.
COOMBS: On the same day she was baptized, there was a lot of significance to that, committing your life to a lifestyle like this and saying they went right home and had not just sex, but anal sex. I mean, you think, that those jurors, yes --
PINSKY: Well, let`s hear the ladies. Go, what do you think?
LARSEN: I don`t believe it. I don`t believe it for an instant. Travis was very -- he got a little sidetracked when it came to Jodi, but when it comes down to it, he`s a very religious man. He really believed in his church and in his -- in the gospel, and I don`t believe for a second that happened.
PINSKY: I get that. But do you think the jurors are more deeply affected by this kind of disgusting material, knowing that she was soiling her commitments as well?
LARSEN: Well, I really hope not, obviously, but at the same time, I think when you watch Jodi and you listen to her, she puts her tears when she needs to, when it looks good. You can`t look at Travis` picture, a live picture of him, yet in the interrogation, she wanted to keep looking at the pictures of what she did to him.
COOMBS: What are your perception --
LARSEN: I mean, I think the jury is smart enough to take this all in.
COOMBS: Speaking of the jury, are you watching their reactions to her? How do you read them, and do you think some of them might be buying what she`s saying?
HASLEM: I`m not sure that they`re buying it. I definitely watch the jury when I`m in there, and there`s a couple of jurors that will always write notes, that they continue to write notes throughout this trial.
But I`ve noticed that there are a couple of jurors that have been writing notes, and today weren`t writing notes. I don`t know what that means. But they`ve seen all the evidence that we`ve seen. I think she`s proved that she`s a liar.
PINSKY: Oh, she has proven that many, many times. We know that for sure about her. Just like Casey Anthony, one thing we know for sure, liar.
Listen, we`re looking at pictures of you alongside your picture here, ladies, when you were with Travis in happier times. It is very -- you got to remember, this is a very, very sad reality, that a young life was cut short. A lot of people lost someone they loved, and now, things are getting dragged through the mud in a way that has got to be deeply disturbing to a lot of people.
Next up, I`ve got more of our exclusive with Travis` friends.
And later on, I`ve got my jury. Are they siding with Jodi? And one of the jury members has something to reveal. There she is, about her own history and how she relates to what Jodi is talking about. Do not go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: He had a list of fantasies that he wanted to fulfill.
Travis offered to pay me to clean his house. He wanted me to wear one of those French maid outfits.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were also having a sexual relationship with him at this time, weren`t you?
ARIAS: Yes. He wanted me to drive to home. He wants us to get out of the car, have me come out of the house, give him oral sex and he wanted to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on my face, and then get back in his car and drive away without saying a single word. He had a lot of nice suits and he wanted me to perform oral sex on him in his office while he was wearing those suits. That one we did many times, probably his whole wardrobe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jodi Arias, again, regaling the jury with a list of Travis Alexander`s alleged fantasies.
And, Pam and Julie, thank you for joining us. I know this has to be very difficult for you guys.
And, Travis` family, please, our best to everyone back there in Mesa. My thoughts are with you. We`ll get more from them, hopefully, as this trial unfolds. I`m back with my co-host, Loni Coombs, and I want to read a quick Twitter to you guys. This is from -- where was it?
Oh, shoot, I think -- @bgazader, G-A-Z-A-D-E-R. "This is a travesty to the domestic violence victims. I am one who has survived my husband`s eight stab wounds in 2006. Jodi Arias is not a victim here."
Abe Abdelhadi, you`re still with me. What are your thoughts?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Well, I agree with that Twitter feed. All of this -- by the way, waiting for the big deviance bomb, you know? Oh, my God, she was going to wear a French maid outfit. Oh my God, they had some fantasies a couple do things together. I mean, none of this is speaking to anything that she`s corroborating the story. It`s just so insulting to anybody that`s been through this. I`ve got some friends --
PINSKY: Abe, let me interrupt you and say we want back to the Spiderman underwear. You know, they seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on, oh, she`s wearing little boys` underwear. I mean, given the perspective as a male, don`t you think it could be it`s just a joke? He kept saying, oh that`s so hot, ha, ha. This is some joke I`m putting you through. You know what I mean? Doesn`t it feel like they`re goofing around?
ABDELHADI: I get the impression that they`re probably goofing around. And I mean, who knows what happens between two people in a room, and I think somebody alluded to the fact that "Charlie`s Angels," Cameron Diaz is dancing around in the beginning, was that -- would be PG and she`s wearing Spiderman underwear. It`s like -- I mean, whatever.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY, THEBLOOMFIRM.COM: None of this is true. She`s the biggest liar. She lied to the police and said she wasn`t even there. Then she lied to the police and said there were two intruders that killed him, and then her third story is self-defense. The jury knows that. I think we all need to take a deep breath. Of course, this is terribly insulting to the domestic violence victims. I agree.
I wrote about that on my blog on Avo.com today. That`s the real outrage in this case, because she`s insulting other victims by pretending to be one. But guess what, there`s going to be a cross-examination of her. It`s going to be beautiful. She`s going to be destroyed. The jury is going to see through all this.
Jurors are not dumb. They`re going to understand that she`s a horrible liar, and she`s going to be convicted.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: But you know, Lisa, as you know, after being a prosecutor for a number of years, I mean, it took us years to even be able to bring up this spousal abuse and domestic violence defense. Yes, for many years, you weren`t able to mention any of that.
PINSKY: Abe? Abe, you first, then Janine -- Abe.
ABDELHADI: Well, the best they can do -- so far, all the testimony that I`ve heard, this is the best you can do? I`m from Los Angeles, man. I`m waiting for the big deviant bomb, and it`s not coming.
COOMBS: Well --
ABDELHADI: The guy wasn`t a deviant.
COOMBS: Well, Abe, we did get to child molest today, and I was going to ask Dr. Drew, you know, as the expert, it was almost like Jodi put a list of all the sexual deviant behaviors and went through a checklist down today. I mean, I was just like every time we got to another, and then she hits the child molester (ph), I was like, oh, that`s just it.
PINSKY: Here we go. Right.
BLOOM: And she stayed with him. She stayed with him believing she was a child molester.
COOMBS: Yes. Exactly.
ABDELHADI: Let me jump in for one second.
PINSKY: Abe, go ahead. Then, we`ll get Janine --
ABDELHADI: I`m sorry. And this is a woman, by the way, who told me on multiple occasions that this is somebody she could not imagine being without. This would be a great father to her children. This is somebody that would be an excellent husband. OK, this is a guy, with all these sins and these egregious behaviors, this is somebody you want to father your kids?
PINSKY: Abe, I think the rubber hits the road right there. Janine, what do you want to say?
JANINE DRIVER, AUTHOR, "YOU CAN`T LIKE TO ME": I want to say when a domestic violence victim is talking about what happened, we`re looking for micro expressions of what, what emotion does this person feel? Fear. And fear, in law enforcement, we call this the three whites. We`re looking for the eyes to just open really wide for quick second. You see the white part of the top, the inner and the outer. This is true fear. We don`t see fear. You know what we see in this clip?
PINSKY: Shame. You see shame.
DRIVER: No, we don`t. You know what we see? We see happiness. She is smiling. This is call duping delight. When she talks, Dr. Drew, about getting out of the car and having oral sex, we see a smile on her face. This is duping delight. We see this with murderers all the time. Casey Anthony. Check. She`s smiling.
PINSKY: Inappropriate glee is what I told.
BLOOM: There could an explanation for her lack of affect. Drew, do you think she`s medicated during the trial?
PINSKY: I don`t think she`s --
COOMBS: I don`t, either. She`s very responsive.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree.
COOMBS: And Janine, did you see that interview where they say, you know, is anybody going to convict you, and she said, no, there`s no way. She`s smirking during that. She`s smiling about that.
DRIVER: Not only she`s smirking, she turns around and tries to tell us that the reason she said that is because she was going to try to commit suicide.
COOMBS: Right. Right.
DRIVER: If that`s the case, Jodi Arias, how come when you`re telling us that, there is no emotion right there? Trying to commit suicide? She looks right at us instead of going down, which is kinesthetic in emotion. That`s a bunch of malarkey. It`s another lie, put it on the lie column, and we divided it up, another lie for Jodi Arias --
PINSKY: Kathy in Arizona, go right ahead.
KATHY, ARIZONA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
KATHY: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Kathy, go ahead.
KATHY: Hi. I just want to make sure before I talk that everybody knows I`m not condemning Travis or the Mormon church, but I am a single woman, new convert to the Mormon church, and I don`t have a family or children, and I can totally understand how this whole thing happened.
First of all, in the Mormon church, if you`re a single person, you can`t even go to the celestial kingdom if you die single. And also, Jodi and Travis, both of them in that situation, neither one of them had anybody to go to or talk to. And when you`re hiding stuff, it only gets worse if you don`t --
PINSKY: Sure, but I`m not sure they had no one to go to or talk to. In fact, they had lots of -- Abe, she talked to you a lot, for that matter.
COOMBS: There`s plenty of people have talked to them. There`s friends to talk to, people in the church you can talk to. You can go talk to your bishop like --
PINSKY: And by the way, I have actually treated a lot of Mormons over the years. The church is a very good job of bringing people in and helping with the treatment process. If somebody said I`m out of control with my behavior --
PINSKY: They would -- I mean --
COOMBS: They have addiction programs.
COOMBS: They have all sorts of programs.
ABDELHADI: Travis had a lot of good friends, too. Travis had a lot of good friends who were steeped in the church. They guided him. His family, his grandmother. He had people he could go to. He was dialed into that church way more so than Jodi Arias was. He could have gone if he, quote, unquote, "needed this help."
By the way, this is like Keyser Soze. This woman is telling us from her point of view, which is a complete fabrication.
COOMBS: Only her point of view.
PINSKY: Well, only her point of view. And again, this is really the point I`d like to make tonight. I don`t see any -- it all hangs together. It`s a beautiful story. She`s weaved a beautiful -- right
COOMBS: But where`s the corroboration?
BLOOM: It doesn`t hang together at all. I disagree.
PINSKY: Listen, in terms of if I were the expert witness on the stand, this is the story I`d like them to tell, I wouldn`t be concerned about the evidence because I`m not a legal person. there Is no evidence, though. No evidence.
COOMBS: It`s almost perfect from an expert`s point of view.
PINSKY: That`s my point. Lisa, thank you for that advice, and I have to say goodbye to you now, Lisa. And Janine, I got to say goodbye to you as well. Abe, you always give us really interesting perspective.
Next up, my jurors are back. Did Jodi`s testimony and tears today affect them, win them over, change their feelings? They will tell us what went on to the room today and with the jury.
PINSKY: It`s time for what we call "dr. Drew`s jury." If you remember, we had that back in the Casey Anthony days. Now, we`ve got that here for Jodi Arias case. I`m back with my co-host this week, former prosecutor, Loni Coombs. I want to quickly read a Twitter feed for a minute. I mentioned the woman`s Twitter a few minutes which just talked about how this whole case of travesty to domestic violence victims.
And she Twittered back and said, "Thank you, @Dr. Drew. I heard you air my statement. I`m glad. I finally have a voice. Those are kind of moving and kind of telling about how domestic violence victims feel.
I want to go now out to my jury. Joining us, Katie Wick and Jacob Whitehurst. They were actually in the courtroom today as Jodi continued her graphic testimony. Now, you guys, I saw you running around trying to get your mics set up. If there`s any more technical problems, we`ll give you a break. So, don`t worry. I know this is -- you know, you`re out in the field.
Let me go to -- Katie, we`ve talked to you a bunch. I want to go to Jacob first because I think he has some interesting things to say. Let me just straight up ask Jacob. Did you believe Jodi today in court?
JACOB WHITEHURST, DR. DREW "JUROR": I did. Yes. I think she was being sincere. I believed what she had to say.
PINSKY: Do you think other male jurors bought it as well?
WHITEHURST: Yes, I do. From a guy`s perspective, I would say they did as well.
PINSKY: Katie, what is your take?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Yes. Oh, Dr. Drew, it`s really interesting because for the last week, this is what I`ve been really interested in hearing is a male`s perspective. For me, do I think the jury is buying it? Some of them, yes. I`ve noticed a couple men who were not taking notes last week sitting up today taking notes.
Towards the beginning, there was a lot of this, a lot of -- one guy was swiveling, one guy actually dropped his notebook on the floor. I don`t know if he dozed off by accident or what happened there. But as far as the jury taking it, they`re paying a lot more attention in the afternoon session, absolutely.
PINSKY: Katie, how do you personally interpret what Jodi was saying on the stand today? I understand you had some history. I don`t know if you feel comfortable talking about it, but can you tell us why this resonated for you, particularly?
WICK: Dr. Drew, I was in a relationship that began to become very abusive. What really struck me was when Jodi talked about the wrist grabbing. I went through that with a guy that I was seeing about five years ago. The issue is, is that I fled from that. There was an instance where I was actually in California myself, and I took a flight home -- I found a police officer and I took a flight home at 3:00 in the morning.
I ran away from that. When I hear about how Jodi drove hundreds of miles to that situation, something just does not connect well with me on that at all.
COOMBS: And that`s what I wanted to ask both of you. I think that some of the details she told today were very compelling, and people who`ve been in situations, relationships that are abusive could really relate to some of those things. But when you step back and put it in the package of Jodi and what we do know about her, and then this continuous pattern of her then going back towards her.
He`s not coming towards him -- her, she keeps going to him, driving hundreds of miles to be with him after all of these things have occurred. Does that, in any way, kind of raise red flags to you about, OK, perhaps the story is credible, but is it credible coming from Jodi as a real victim herself or she just mimicking maybe some stories that she`s heard or that she`s read about?
WICK: It`s interesting you say that because I think she is mimicking, because she still has way too much detail in what she remembers. And the relationship I was in, I remember the incident, but I don`t remember what shoes he was wearing or, you know, how many birds are in the tree. I don`t remember things like that. It makes no sense to me.
PINSKY: And yet, Jacob, you still feel what? When she cries, you feel a desire to save her? What`s the feeling you get? Do you feel compassion towards her?
WHITEHURST: Well, here`s the thing. I think that she was telling the truth in what had happened. What`s going through her head, I mean, I`m not exactly sure. They brought up the phrase battered women`s syndrome. What goes through a woman`s head whenever any man will hit her, then he apologizes and the woman says, well, OK, everything is fine?
Why are the apologies at any extent forgiven or accepted? Why are these men or these batters forgiven at any level? The fact that they`re forgiven at any level, even low level means who is to judge at what level she went to to say, oh well, now, she`s crazy because she went back for this but not that.
PINSKY: And Jacob, what made you want to follow this trial? What are you doing there in the courtroom?
WHITEHURST: I`m going to be honest. My wife`s got involved in it. So, she got involved in it means I get involved in it, and I think it`s fascinating. I mean, it`s local. I`m sorry, go ahead.
COOMBS: Do you know any of the people involved, any of the witnesses or any of the parties? Are you, in any way, connected to anyone in the case?
WHITEHURST: Personally, no. No, nobody.
PINSKY: We have learned Jacob is severely co-dependent, though.
PINSKY: He`s going to rescue Jodi Arias, and if his wife likes the case, he likes the case. Not that I blame you, it`s all good. Go ahead, Katie.
WICK: I was going to say, Dr. Drew, it`s interesting to me because I talk to a lot of guys and they say, this kind of freaks me out. It`s kind of like the modern day fatal attraction.
WICK: So, I don`t know. Maybe some guys are thinking twice before they make --
PINSKY: Yes, Katie, yes. I think that`s very true.
COOMBS: Very good point. Cautionary tale.
PINSKY: Yes. We live in a time when people hook up, what`s the big deal. It has profound impacts on people, and the wrong person can, you see, shatter lives.
COOMBS: We know from Jodi. I mean, she has this whole picture in her head of what`s going on, but she`s not telling him, I don`t like this, I don`t want this. So, Travis may have a very different picture of what`s going on here.
PINSKY: Hold on, everybody. I`ve got more with the jury after the break. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING EX-BOYFRIEND: I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating. He started grabbing at something on the bed, and I realized they were papers. It was a picture of a little boy. He was dressed in underwear. I`ve heard in the past that usually people who have problems like that were hurt when they were children, and I kept thinking, what if he was hurt when he was a kid?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s Jodi Arias testifying about what she says was interesting to Travis. It`s been quite a day. I`m back with my co-host this week, Attorney Loni Coombs. And once again, we`re talking about issues for a more mature audience. Please, viewers, take the according precautions.
Katie Wick and Jacob Whitehurst are part of what I call my jury. And Jacob, before the break, you asked why women go back to abusers? And there actually is some theory about that. When somebody is in an abusive relationship, they can bond to the trauma. They actually -- the intensity becomes confusing. It becomes confused for love itself, and they will have -- they`ll have thoughts about what the perpetrator was doing, justifying it.
He loves me so much. He was so jealous because he loves me. I`m really the problem here. If I weren`t behaving that way. They feel ashamed, they feel responsible, but they bond to that trauma and they can`t let go.
COOMBS: But Dr. Drew, does that go toward child molesters?
COOMBS: That`s a whole other area.
PINSKY: That`s where they went off the rail. I don`t know why they brought -- Katie, they had to go check every bizarre perversion off the list, and if they just kept it in the domestic violence vein, it would have fit with her physical abuse that they claimed in her childhood and it would all hung better. What do you say?
WICK: I agree with you. It was interesting. This weekend, I read in our big paper here that this was going to come out, and I couldn`t even finish it, Dr. Drew, because I got so sick to my stomach. Really? I mean, this is the lowest of the low that you can do to somebody. I mean, first of all, to throw your mom under the bus, then to put Travis under the bus, now to talk about him looking at naked pictures of boys.
And you know, you notice how they always say -- they always put the religion aspect with the sexual aspect right next to each other, say, for the book of Mormon, and then, they went into the car and had sex. And then, now he gave her a porcelain angel, and five minutes later, he was doing it (ph) on the bed. It`s almost too much.
COOMBS: Yes. Katie, do you think that`s playing to, perhaps, the Mormon jurors? I mean, I saw that, too. It`s always that very strong juxtaposition of something religious with something really extreme sexually.
WICK: I think it`s over the top. And I`m not Mormon, but I know -- I`m a Christian, and as a person of faith, I know that we`re not infallible. Nobody is infallible. So, actually, I think in a way, it`s going to help Travis in the sense that, look, everybody has their issues. Everybody has the sin in their lives, and Travis isn`t infallible. Why is Travis --
PINSKY: Got to take call. Tom in Virginia -- Tom.
TOM, VIRGINIA: This is unbelievable, Dr. Drew. This is like a runaway train. She`s out of control. The court is out of control. I think I speak for a lot of Americans when I hope that prosecutor should be able to jump in and do something because the family shouldn`t be smeared this way. It`s all (INAUDIBLE). Ninety percent of it.
COOMBS: I agree with you. And Tom, I agree with you. And it was interesting. Today, the prosecutor actually did start objecting and trying to cut some of this off and the judge just said overruled.
PINSKY: The judge does not want any possibility of appeal later? Is that --
COOMBS: Yes. Just kind of what Lisa Bloom said earlier. It`s a death penalty case. We`re going to let the defense do whatever they want to do, which I think is egregious. I don`t think that`s --
PINSKY: Tom, call back more often. I think you speak on behalf of a lot of people. But Jacob, you know, Jacob, you`re still hanging in there with Jodi, right?
WHITEHURST: You know, I think the sex and the religion, Mormonism specifically, go hand in hand. I think that what the Mormonism preaches with the restrictions on sexuality creates a taboo that almost forces the people who are belonging to the church to want to go after it even more because it`s off limits.
PINSKY: I will tell you, that doesn`t really -- I don`t think that really happens, but it might force it underground. And in that sense, that may be right, and that may be the case they`re going to try to build. Listen, Katie and Jacob, I thank you so much for being here. No doubt, we will check in with you again. Please giving us what your impressions on the courtroom.
And it`s fascinating hearing the male and female difference. And, again, I appreciate you guys being here. We`re going to take a quick break and we`ll be back with Lonnie after this.
PINSKY: I am back with Loni Coombs, former prosecutor who`s here with me all week. We`ll be looking into the Jodi Arias trial. I want to take a quick call from Carolyn in Pennsylvania -- Carolyn.
CAROLYN, PENNSYLVANIA: Now, Dr. Drew, are we going to have a Johnnie Cochran moment here if the spideys (ph) don`t fit, you must acquit? Or is this attorney going to have her put on the spideys?
PINSKY: If the spidey --
COOMBS: Oh my goodness!
PINSKY: or you must acquit? Carolyn, I appreciate the humor in that, but I don`t think we`re going there. In fact, this whole -- the spidey underwear, Loni, is the whole thing that I think where they`re reaching and reaching, and I would imagine smart jurors would sort of see that.
COOMBS: Yes, I mean, you know, that`s common relationship. You kind of joke around about things. There`s nothing apparently devious or evil about a pair of, you know, Spiderman. I mean, we saw it in "Charlie`s Angels." It was cute.
PINSKY: And by the way, she said -- what did he say, he said I looked hot.
COOMBS: Yes. Oh, oh. Yes.
PINSKY: Now, there was reference to the thousand places to go before you buy book. I see you holding it there.
COOMBS: I have this -- I actually have one of this at home, too. And it was so interesting when she said that they were going to go to all these places because Travis had this list and he wanted to go to places, then she said the title was "A Thousand Places To See Before You Die" and then I think it kind of hit her, she realized what she was saying and how eerie that is as she just brought that up.
PINSKY: We`re going to -- you and -- Travis, you and I will head on through it all those places before you die.
PINSKY: This whole thing is -- this is an unsavory case, it really is. I`m surprised it`s gone as far as it has, frankly.
COOMBS: Well, yes. And she talked about all the list -- he had the list of where he wanted to go. He had these lists of sexual fantasies. I mean, you know, according to Jodi, Travis had lots of lists.
PINSKY: Well, now, listen, we`re going to watch this again tomorrow. Do you think the judge is going to begin to clamp down at all on this?
COOMBS: I don`t know. She surely doesn`t seem inclined to, and you know, a lot of judges are really worried about being overturned on appeal, and especially in death penalty cases, they do tend to be very generous with letting the defense go on and on. Honestly, I don`t think -- I don`t see her pulling back at all.
PINSKY: When do you think the cross examination, next week sometime?
COOMBS: I`m going to say two or three days because we saw the sex tape.
PINSKY: OK, guys. Thank you all for watching. Thanks for those who call. Thank you to my guests. Thank you, Loni, as well. We`ll see you tomorrow. "Nancy Grace" starts, guess what, right now.