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JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Explicit Text Messages Read in Jodi Arias Trial

Aired February 13, 2013 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: The Jodi Arias trial gets even more sexual if that`s possible, yes, graphic, very sexually-charged text messages from Travis to Jodi read in open court. Will these filthy fantasies uncovered in these messages convince the jury Jodi is innocent of murder? We`ll debate it next.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, another triple-X-rated day in the Jodi Arias death penalty trial. As we get closer to her describing the day she killed Travis, Jodi`s defense unveils filthy texts, reportedly from Travis, where he calls Jodi the ultimate slut and a whore. The texts make reference to rape and Travis making a porno with Jodi. Will this help Jodi prove battered women`s syndrome or will they show Jodi was having kinky but consenting sex with Travis? We`re debating all of this with our panel of experts and taking your calls.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: He turned me around and flipped me the double bird and then walked in the house and shut the door. And now he had a girlfriend, and I was one of the girls that he was seeing on the side.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had been caught snooping around and peeking into his windows at his house.

ARIAS: It was a very mean text message, and I would just start shaking.

KIRK NURMI, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Before he threw you down, choked you, before he broke your finger and kicked you in the ribs, before he pushed you down in the room and wouldn`t let you leave and insulted your family?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That he had his daughter (ph).

ARIAS: He`s threatening me. I just felt like he was being a complete bully.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The final day when she talks about the murder and said, "Travis, I`m going to tell that you`re a pedophile, I`m going to tell someone," and that maybe he kill -- you know, he attacks her and then they get into the struggle.

ARIAS: I threatened him back. I think I just got fed up. "The only thing I`m going to be spitting out is the fact that you`re a pedophile with a past."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. Tonight, another dirty sexually graphic day in the Jodi Arias courtroom. This time with very steamy, filthy, really, X-rated texts from Travis to Jodi read in open court. Do these texts prove Travis abused Jodi and drove her to kill him in self-defense?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live on another extraordinary day.

The beautiful 32-year-old photographer is accused of stabbing her ex- boyfriend 29 times, slicing Travis Alexander`s throat ear to ear, practically decapitating him, and shooting him in the head.

Now she`s trying to prove, "Oh, I did all of that in self-defense." Can she?

Well, the defense showed explicit triple-X-rated text messages that Travis sent to Jodi. We`ve got to warn you: this is graphic, but it was said in open court, and it`s central to the defense claim that Jodi was sexually degraded and abused by Travis.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NURMI: "The progressiveness of it from the very clean to the very dirty and everything in between. You are the ultimate slut in bed. You`ll rejoice in being a whore that`s sole purpose in life is to be mine to have animal sex with and to please me in any way I desire."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi also testified about a huge fight she had with Travis, where she threatens to tell the whole world he`s a pedophile. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He said, "I`m going to tell all your friends" -- basically I can`t remember how he characterized it, but I think it`s something like "the psycho things that you`ve done."

He`s waking me up in the middle of the night with a whole bunch of text messages that were all unkind. He`s threatening me. I just felt like he was being a complete bully at that point, and I was tired of being bullied. I think I just got fed up, and I called up and I said...

NURMI: What did you say?

ARIAS: It was really mean. I said, "The only thing I`m going to be spitting out is the fact that you were a pedophile with a past."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, boy, what is next? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1- 877-586-7297.

Before we debate this, straight out to our own senior producer, Selin Darkalstanian.

You were in court today while all of these incredibly, I would say filthy -- I mean, it`s beyond just sexually graphic. This is filthy, dirty stuff, these text messages. Tell us what was it like there with her family, his family? And we`re hearing those texts from, reportedly, Travis Alexander.

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Yes. Today the defense was definitely painting a not-so-nice picture of Travis by showing his text messages that were extremely dirty, like you said, to Jodi.

There wasn`t much reaction from his side of the family. That`s only because, remember, the judge has told his family, specifically his side of the courtroom that, do not react. If you have any type of an emotional response to anything, please get up and leave the courtroom. So I think they`re very aware to keep everything in and not let everything show so that they don`t get kicked out of the courtroom during this trial.

But I have to say that today we noticed it being very heated between the two sides, the defense and the prosecution. At one point the prosecution was objecting to something that Jodi said, and Jodi quickly said, "I`m sorry, I`m sorry."

And the defense turned around and said, "Don`t worry, Jodi. You don`t have to say, `I`m sorry` to him."

So you could tell it`s getting really heated in the courtroom between the two sides, the two attorneys.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You could tell there`s not only no love lost between these two men, they actually seem to hate each other, which is classic in high-profile cases. It happened between Tom Sneddon and Tom Mesereau with the Michael Jackson child molestation trial. They had to draw a line down the middle of the courtroom. This is what happens when there`s so much at stake.

The defense carefully crafting an image of Jodi as a beaten and degraded and abused woman. Listen to how Jodi explains how she would shake in fear of Travis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NURMI: Did this shaking, did that begin before or after the beatings began? Did this begin before he slapped you in the face? Or in the cheek?

ARIAS: It was kind of like the jaw, neck area.

NURMI: OK.

ARIAS: Yes, it began in the fall, 2007.

NURMI: Before he threw you down and choked you?

ARIAS: Before he choked me, yes.

NURMI: But he broke your finger and kicked you in the ribs?

ARIAS: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So this crime scene paints an entirely different picture. So is the defense now going say that Travis put Jodi through so much abuse that she snapped?

Or is the defense actually heading to say that, well, Jodi threatened to expose his little secret of alleged pedophilia and that he wanted to rub her out and so almost giving him a motive for murder?

I want to bring in my legal panel, fantastic legal panel to debate this, Lisa Bloom, legal analyst for Avo.com; for the prosecution, Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor for the prosecution; and Adam Swickle and Evangeline Gomez for the defense.

All right. Let`s start with Lisa Bloom.

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVO.COM: Look, Jane, we still don`t have a scintilla of evidence in this trial, other than Jodi`s own testimony, that she was abused or beaten in any way. We`re still waiting for it. We`re many weeks into this trial. I don`t think it`s every going to come.

All of this graphic sexual stuff appears to be between consenting adults. And frankly, as filthy as it is, it`s pretty tame by contemporary standards, compared to, say, "Fifty Shades of Grey." It certainly sounds...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. It is -- Lisa, I love you; you`re a dear friend, but no. I read -- I read the dirty parts, let`s put it that way.

BLOOM: Did you read "Fifty Shades of Gray" that sold 50 million copies?

HAMMER: I did. This is worse. This is worse. That makes -- This makes "Fifty Shades of Gray" look like "Highlights" magazine, Lisa.

BLOOM: I don`t know.

HAMMER: I mean, come on. Look, if the jury needed any more proof that Travis demeaned Jodi, these text messages are really what they are offering. And listen to what reference Travis gave to Jodi during sex. Listen to this, and then we`ll continue our debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NURMI: He also says in this message "You`re the ultimate slut in bed." What does that mean to you? Is there some history behind that?

ARIAS: Yes.

NURMI: What`s that history?

ARIAS: Sometimes he would call me that when we were having sex.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Swickle, he calls her a slut. He calls her a whore. He says he wants to tie her to a tree. He says he wants to make a porno with her. I mean, does this have an impact on the jurors, all of whom are human beings, some of whom are men, some of whom are women.

ADAM SWICKLE, ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Jane. And let`s stop the game right here. Let`s stop sitting up here and saying there`s no proof, there`s no evidence, Travis is this wonderful guy, he`s a Mormon, or he just wrote some bad letters to her, or he`s just another man treating her the way a lot of men treat people.

This is disgusting. This man`s behavior is disgusting. Its pornographic. It borders on pedophilia. And it`s abusive and indicative of her.

We now have our evidence. The jury`s going to hear this evidence. The jury is going to absorb this evidence. Experts are going to opine that this evidence is critical, and this girl is starting to really, with her attorneys, weave a web of deception of this man, which I believe is going to increase her chances of an out-right acquittal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey Honowitz.

HONOWITZ: Oh, my God. I don`t know what courtroom you`re watching, quite frankly. I don`t know where the evidence is. Here`s what happened: she drove to and fro 1,000 miles, had sex with him, the guy took a shower and she killed him. And all you have now is killer and porno and just hearing about what a bad, perverted guy he is.

And I don`t know that, if you`re into pornography, you deserve to be killed. And that`s basically what you have here.

SWICKLE: This isn`t pornography. This is...

HONOWITZ: No, you said it. You just said to him...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, hold.

HONOWITZ: ... you`re into pornography. That`s what you said.

SWICKLE: Let me tell you something, if I walk into your office...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey, he said he wanted to make a porno with her. And I`m not saying it, but you can`t say he`s not into pornography. OK.

HONOWITZ: He`s a pervert, big deal. He didn`t deserve to die because he was a pervert.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Evangeline, and then we`ll go to Lisa.

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, ATTORNEY: Today was a big win for the defense. If you remember earlier in this case, the prosecution submitted a motion stating that they didn`t think these e-mails, these text messages, those phone conversations, were relevant and that they were hearsay.

The defense finally got it in. And guess what? Now in the jury`s eyes, Jodi Arias looks as if she has credibility, because the statements that she stated are corroborated by these text messages, e-mails and the phone sex conversation that was played in court.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. All right. I want to give Lisa a chance for a rebuttal.

BLOOM: I mean, this is insane to me. This is the way that young people talk, whether we like it or not. This was a consensual relationship. They weren`t married. They didn`t live together. They didn`t have kids. T here`s no reason for her to keep going back and back and back other than the fact that it was a consensual relationship that she was enjoying.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. But we have to talk about what -- the power and control wheel of domestic violence, which says male privilege, demeaning, threats, bullying and isolation, which we`ll get to. We`re just getting started.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MURDER VICTIM (via phone): You are right, in the bath, it was hot.

ARIAS: Oh, when we took a bath together? You were amazing. You made me -- seriously, you made me feel like a goddess.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: "Doth the mind of the Lord see it fitting that I should be bored (ph) that I might compose to this poetry and send it speedily off to thee. But I think it`s that, in fact, if I am bored that I must act, for it is my own restless mind that has responded this way in kind. Before that boredom of which I speak, I am so grateful for, if not bleak (ph). I am still happy, for there is much I can still do for it, and such, like send an e-mail after 3 and read another book with thee. So here`s to wishing you a time that`s full of happiness and rhyme. May your days be fullest in relation and not just in simulation, but in reality just the way it had to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She said in that poem one month or less than a month before she kills him.

And when they`re not having phone sex or trading poetry, graphic texts are on the menu. In one extremely graphic text that could be the most damning, Travis tells Jodi, he`s going to make her feel like she was raped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NURMI: "But how about feeling like you`ve been raped, but you enjoyed every delightful moment of it."

Did you want to feel like you were raped?

ARIAS: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, we`ve been debating, "Oh, what does this mean?"

Tell us about erotic humiliation. We`ve been talking about, OK, everybody knows about bondage in the movies, you know, whips and chains, but erotic humiliation is a subset of S&M that people may not be acquainted with. What I want to ask you is, what do people get out of degrading somebody verbally, and what do people get out of being degraded verbally? Why do they get off on it?

DR. JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Jane, erotic humiliation is the consensual agreement between two parties that they want to use humiliation as a psychological weapon in a sexual content.

And so the key word here is "consensual." The two people have to agree that they will take on this form of humiliation, whether as the bottom, which is the person who is humiliated, or at the top, who is the person who does the humiliating.

And what people find exciting about it is just not being power positions. Sometimes you`ll see somebody who is used to being in power actually wanting to be the bottom in this type of relationship.

And I think the key to it is that the individuals feel the excitement from the humiliation. It`s something that`s out of the ordinary. It`s something that they generally don`t experience. And so it`s something for them to sort of, you know, I guess take it up a notch in their sexual life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s sexually charged because it`s taboo, and so people -- humans like to do what`s taboo. And in its best moments, it could be like kids playing in a sand -- sandlot, you know. It`s -- it`s working through her kinks, as it were, from childhood. You know, she said that she was beaten as a child by her parents, so she`s looking at that ironically, to come up with a different ending. That`s what we all do. We take our worst childhood traumas, and we try to work them out as adults, often erotically, to make them pleasurable instead.

But Shanna Hogan, journalist, you`ve been covering this case. You`re writing a book on this case. Is it dirty pool on her part to take a consenting kinky relationship and try to turn it from something that turned her on into something that was abuse?

SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST: I definitely think so, because we`re only hearing her side of it right now. We`re hearing the text messages taken out of context. But clearly this was a consenting sexual relationship between two people.

And we heard in that tape that, I mean, she was giving it as well as she was giving it. She was -- you know, she was sexually charged. She was saying that she liked all these things. So just to afterwards, after the fact, say that this was somehow abuse, it`s kind of unfair to the victim in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, you`re in there in Arizona, in court. What, day six on the stand. She still hasn`t gotten to the day of the murder. This is, like, the longest -- this is a better run that some Broadway shows have. When is this going to end?

BETH KARAS, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Jane, I don`t know. I wish I could tell you. Because not only does she have to get to the killing and she hasn`t moved forward on the timeline from where court ended a day ago.

But she still has to talk about all her behavior afterwards. Setting up an alibi is what the state will argue, going Utah, leaving him voicemail right after killing him as though he`s still alive. What does she do with the gun and the knife? All her lies to the police, her phone call and then her interrogations after she was arrested for two days in a row. She has a lot of explaining to do, even after the killing, and she`s still some hours, probably, from describing that killing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And is she running out the clock, as it were? Trying to somehow establish an emotional relationship with the jury and figuring, "If I just keep talking, they`re going to feel like I`m their friend," or could the jury become really angry, Jon Lieberman, and decide she`s wasting my time and I resent her for it.

JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, of course, she`s trying to endear herself to this jury, that`s the whole point of this defense, to keep her off of Death Row.

But Jane, we need a reality check. She is a proven liar. We can`t forget that. It`s on videotape. She`s told three different stories about what happened here.

And none of the evidence today paints a picture that she was ever fearful for her life. So what complains her driving hundreds of miles to his house with a knife and a gun and killing him there.

And then, if she was the, quote unquote, "victim," if it was self- defense, why didn`t she call police right away and explain all of this right at that time? We`re giving her way too much credit.

Obviously, we didn`t even hear her text messages today. Those conveniently were left out. It was only Travis`s texts. But on cross- examination, and mark my words: this cross will be epic. We got to hear a little bit of it today of Mr. Martinez challenging some evidence in. We got to hear just a little bit of how he`s going to challenge Jodi Arias.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

LIEBERMAN: But I promise you, it will be epic.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, Dave Hall, a friend of Travis Alexander, who is here in our show speaking because the victim cannot speak for himself any longer, on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER (via phone): I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

ARIAS (via phone): Oh, my gosh, that is so debasing. I like it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NURMI: Is this a check conversation we heard earlier where he calls you a three-(EXPLETIVE DELETED) wonder?

ARIAS: Yes.

NURMI: And a slut?

ARIAS: Yes.

NURMI: And a hole?

ARIAS: Yes, and many other things.

NURMI: What other things do you recall him calling you during that conversation?

ARIAS: He calls me a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). He tells me I`m worthless and he tells me (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Travis allegedly sent Jodi a text calling her a dirty name just nine days before she killed him. She claims he was angry with her for posting on another guy`s Facebook page.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: Well, he said I looked like a pure whore. He found a comment that I left on another friend`s page. It was a reference to the movie "Anchorman." I put, "Are those man boobs, or are you just ripped?"

NURMI: Travis was mad at this comment, and he called you a whore, because you said -- you made a movie reference?

ARIAS: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to explain something, because we have our social media maven, Rich Dule (ph), who`s looking at social media and say some people say I`m supporting Jodi Arias. No, I`m not. I am trying to present both sides, because we have seen, in case after case, we have all the talking heads saying she`s going to be convicted, she`s going to be convicted, she`s going to be convicted, like Casey Anthony. And then everybody is shocked and blind-sided when something else happens. So what we`re trying to do is look at the possibilities.

I am certainly not, in any way, shape or form, suggesting that this woman is not guilty. I am saying that we`re looking at these texts, and we`ve got to analyze them and also try to learn from them.

This is an extreme example of sexual dysfunction that occurs on a more modest scale all the time amongst many, many, many people.

I have a very special guest right now, Dave Hall, Travis Alexander`s dear friend. And we`re happy to have you on, because we know the victim cannot speak for himself. You`re hearing these texts, and this is the heart of the defense case.

So people are saying, well, it might be a good day for the defense. It might not. But let me just ask you, human being to human being, what do you make of these texts and the phone calls and everything else that you`re hearing from your friend, Travis.

DAVE HALL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS (via phone): Well, Jane, you know, the information is just as shocking to his friends as it is to the rest of the world. I want to put it in context, though, because, you know, for 29 years, Travis lived a great life. And -- and we never, ever saw any of this type of stuff.

And Jodi alluded to something very interesting. She said, you know, "Travis`s friends kept trying to break us up" towards the end of their relationship. They kept trying to, you know, break up our relationship, and that`s 100 percent true because, as Travis dated Jodi, we saw things in him changing. We saw some of these things.

In personal conversations, he confided in some of us that he was having some challenges, morality-wise, that he was trying to work through, and he didn`t go into details, and so this is all, you know, new information to us.

But quite honestly, sex can be just like a drug, and if you don`t believe me, ask Tiger Woods. Jodi was Travis`s drug. And we all know when people are messed up on drugs, they will do things to get their fix that you don`t normally ever do. And he said things and did things and put things in type that was not the normal Travis we knew his entire life.

And he would talk dirty to her, but keep in mind, these were two consenting adults. She not only encouraged it, she loved it, she talked dirty back to him. She said, "Oh, you`re so bad, but I loved it." She egged it on 100 percent.

For her to get on the stand now, and Nurmi to ask her, "How did that make you feel?"

And for her to say things, "It made me feel like dirty toilet paper" and "made me feel dirty" and all these things, absolute lies. We`ve got the audiotape of her loving every second of it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you said one of the most insightful things that I`ve heard during this entire case. And that is that this was an addictive relationship.

And as a recovering alcoholic myself with, hopefully, 18 years of sobriety in April -- one day at a time -- I can certainly relate to all addiction leads to moral degeneracy. This is what happens. You lose your ethical compass when you have an addiction. And it can be to alcohol or drugs or sex or food or any number of things, or gambling.

But when it really has you, you become a zombie, and ethics and morals go out the window. All you want is that next fix, that next fix.

So excellent point, Dave Hall.

Tons more debate on another very X-rated day in the Jodi Arias trial. On the other side, we`re going to continue our debate with our legal panel.

At the top of the hour, Nancy Grace speaks to a friend of Travis Alexander`s. Another friend who also knows Jodi Arias. Nancy at 8 Eastern here at HLN.

But on the other side, more sound from today and more debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He liked when we recorded things like that. He liked to play it back. Throughout the conversation, I began to hit "save, save, save" so that I didn`t forget, so if I forgot the last one, at least a portion of it previously was saved.

NURMI: So you recorded it at his request?

ARIAS: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Actually I liked it. Even when they were explicit, they were still complimentary toward me and he was -- there were times when he was very mean and then he would be nice. And I just -- I craved the nice from him rather and I dreaded the mean.

I wanted to draw it out some so that it wasn`t just, you know, like wham, bam and then hang up.

I like being handled, but, yes, I totally will handle you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says "the progressiveness of it from the very clean to the very dirty and everything in between." Is this the checked conversation we heard in evidence earlier where he calls you a (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a whore?

ARIAS: Yes and many other things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to paint the picture to the jury that this is a feeble little, you know, bookworm that could in no way do these horrible things. I think that most people that know her can see through this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What an extraordinary day we have seen in court. This is the heart of the defense case and they are going at it, playing these texts and showing these texts but out of context, we`re seeing texts that Travis sent to Jodi, not Jodi`s responses. Did she egg him on as it were?

Jodi`s attorneys did not read the most explicit parts of the text messages for the same reason we have edited out the most pornographic parts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says he wants to send one down your throat and another on your face. What did that mean to you?

ARIAS: Oral sex and --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you?

ARIAS: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Before we debate this with our expert panel, Beth Karas, correspondent, "in session", you`re there in court in Phoenix, Arizona, why is it that they`re allowed to do this out of context, that we only see Travis`s e-mails to her?

We heard on the audiotape yesterday when they were having sex talk, phone sex, that she was all into it. Well, we have no context for evaluating these texts.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Correct. But that`s the purpose of cross-examination, and if at a bench conference, a sidebar, Juan Martinez complained about it, the judge would say to him, you have a chance to cross-examine. You can put it in context. So I think that we probably will hear a little more about this once he gets he shot but by then, today`s testimony will be a distant memory.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that`s the thing. And honestly I think they`re keeping her on the stand so long to really put him in a corner because if he keeps her on the stand the same length of time, who are they going to blame? The last person at-bat. So they`re almost like running out the clock in essence.

Jodi testified about pornographic photos that he took of her and he sent her text messages. We`ve been hearing so many of these text messages. Let`s bring in our expert panel to debate it. You cannot justify murder because somebody is a cad or not a gentleman. And you just heard David Hall, Travis Alexander`s friend say he wasn`t like this until he met Jodi, his drug.

So ultimately, and I`ll throw some tough questions at Adam Swickle and Evangeline Gomez, you`re defending their defense, but is this essentially dirty pool to take consensual, kinky sex and you could read books about what the bottom in a relationship that involves erotic humiliation gets out of it and some people say the bottom is the top because the bottom ultimately is even more powerful than the top in some of these situations that then to turn that into abuse is really dirty pool -- Evangeline.

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s not. It absolutely isn`t. Look, what the defense is establishing is that there was a relationship where Travis had total power and control, even dominated this woman. He made her mind mush. He knew she was damaged and he preyed upon it. He manipulated her.

He could have found someone healthy, but no. He wanted her because he saw the deficiencies that she had. This is where he was king. And he exploited her --

(CROSSTALK)

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: At what point that she take responsibility --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Lisa Bloom.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: At what point does she take responsibility for her own choices as an adult woman. You know, as a woman I find a lot of this offensive --

GOMEZ: It`s not.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold it. Hold it. Let her finish. Evangeline let her finish.

BLOOM: She says I like it, she says I love it. She travels to go and be with him. She responds, I`m sure, to these texts in a very encouraging way. She`s not a child and she`s responsible for her choices. You know, I blogged about this on Avo.com yesterday, because I`m so sick of the idea of she`s calling herself a battered woman. I think that`s so insulting to women who really are and who fought for a long time to get rights for battered. Somebody who goes back, who participates, who says (inaudible), who says I like, I love it is not a battered woman.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you Lisa. It`s almost as if this defense is saying that women are children and that they can be controlled by men in a way that women cannot control men.

GOMEZ: She made it very clear she was scared of him. She felt bullied. She felt intimidated.

Even when she was in Hollister, California he called her.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right hold on. Hold. Settle down.

GOMEZ: She felt as if he was going to go through the phone and punch her. That was miles away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey, Stacey Honowitz. Let`s hear from Stacey Honowitz.

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: How fearful and scared could she be? She got in the car and drove a thousand miles to his house. It wasn`t like she was in the bed with him and he put a gun on her. I mean you have to be able to distinguish between consensual relationship and abuse.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No interruptions.

HONOWITZ: And you`re trying to mix the two. And it doesn`t work.

(CROSSTALK)

HONOWITZ: We honestly don`t know.

ADAM SWICKLE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. To quote Bill Maher, "New rules, no interrupting." Ok Adam Swickle.

SWICKLE: It`s the same old thing. It`s the same old thing you hear from them over and over again, you have a prosecutor who prosecutes these cases with Stacey. If I went to Stacey`s office with Jodi Arias as a friend or a colleague and I brought this girl to her, this man would have been prosecuted in ten minutes, he would have been hung up in public execution and they would have done everything they could do to slam this guy.

Now because she`s a defendant and she`s bringing forward the other side of the coin, oh, no, she`s not abused, battered women engage in this conduct every single day. And if this isn`t enough -- excuse me Stacey -- if this isn`t enough, then I`m going to walk my two cases I have in Broward County just like this over to the state`s attorney`s offices and I want them both dismissed now.

HONOWITZ: If you came to my office and you said to me she wants to prosecute him because he called her a whore and a slut, I`d tell you to turn around and walk out the door.

SWICKLE: He beat her. He beat her.

HONOWITZ: Are you crazy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no, no. Wait a second. You have no evidence.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have evidence that he called her a slut and a whore. We have no evidence that he beat her. Ok. That`s the difference.

SWICKLE: But he choked her. She testified to it. He choked her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what I`m saying. They`re asking us to take a leap. There is no, no corroboration that he physically beat her. And if that`s all that they can prove that he humiliated her, I mean I agree with Lisa Bloom, women are not children. And if we want to be of equal stature in society -- I have a mother who was born before women had the right to vote. She`s 97 years old in a week or so. And if we want to be of equal stature, we have to take equal responsibility. We`re adults and we can`t play the victim. We have to have the responsibility to say no, I`m not going to put up with that.

And maybe that`s what this whole trial is about, is to allow women to see what happens when they give away their power.

More on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: I have heard in the past that usually people who have problems like that were hurt when they were children and I kept thinking, what if he was hurt when he was a kid and it made me angry to think of him as a kid and somebody violated him and it really made me mad. And so I tried to mitigate it in my head in that way and I wanted to talk to him and find out what was wrong, like what was going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about a letter that Jodi wrote to an ex-beau when she claims Travis forced her to write where she says, basically I`m not even going to hug you in public because he doesn`t want me to. We`re going to analyze that letter, is that power and control?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He turned around and flipped me the double bird and I would just start shaking. And I began to have that feeling. It starts like it`s a tingly, uncomfortable like nervous, like your nerves are starting to just get frayed. I was very depressed. I was suicidal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi Arias on the stand describing what could be textbook battered women`s syndrome. The question is did she look at a textbook on battered women and then testified to syndromes that she found in the book.

Shanna Hogan, journalist, author of "Picture Perfect" writing a book on this case. What do you make of her being allegedly suicidal leading up to this killing?

SHANNA HOGAN, AUTHOR, "PICTURE PERFECT": I think she made a big hint on how she`s going to play the rest of this case yesterday when she talked about how at one point she was suicidal and she asked to borrow a gun from her ex-boyfriend. I think that`s going to explain how she got that gun in that house.

Possibly she`s going to say that she stole a gun from her grandparents, brought it to his house, maybe with the intention of the killing herself in front of him. I don`t know. But it seems like that`s going to be the card that she`s going play with that gun.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh wow. That`s fascinating. Now, I thought of the possibility that she would weave it into a sex game. And say -- because didn`t she say something about the knife that was used to stab him 29 times was oh, he had cut something to tie her up with the knife. So I was thinking what she would do is say he wanted me to bring a gun and so I stole it from my grandparents because he wanted to use that in a Russian Roulette sex game, which people do that, too believe it or not.

I want to go to Dr. Judy Ho. You`ve been hearing all this debate about is this abuse or is this just kinky sex? Doesn`t it all boil down to intention? People can play games in the bedroom if they have a loving intention and it is a way to work out childhood traumas and express things that they`re ashamed about and get them out and shake them out so they can go on with their lives. Or if it`s done in a very mean way and a cruel way, it can become abusive and degrading.

DR. JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right, Jane. I mean this is people walking a very, very thin line here, because at any point, anything that involved sexual humiliation, or anything dangerous in the bedroom, if you get to that other side, the other person can really suffer psychological damage from it. And so oftentimes these partners will a safe word where they know they have to stop. If one person says a safe word, they have to stop whatever they`re doing.

But a lot of the times the damage has already been done. And I think Jodi is trying to say I have battered women`s syndrome and I was too depressed, I had such low self-esteem that I could not remove myself from the situation and I just kept going back for more because I wanted to please him and I wanted him to make me feel good again.

That might be true but there is no evidence in the psychological literature, in the medical profession that has a consensus on what`s called battered women syndrome. There`s no diagnosis for it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

HO: And there`s also no medical consensus that this is actually going to be a severe enough condition to excuse the types of things that Jodi did.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know, I think there was an old TV commercial "between love and madness lies obsession". I think that sums up this case to a T. She`s obsessed. Anybody who`s ever had a crush on somebody knows what that obsession feels like. You can`t say no, no matter what`s involved, you`ll show up with that person`s involved.

And I don`t care if it happened in high school or as an adult, we have all been there once at least. I have been there several times. So you lose power. It is like a drug. It is like an addiction. Jerome, Arizona, you`ve been so patient. Your question or thought, Jerome.

JEROME, ARIZONA (via telephone): Greetings Jane from Mesa, USA how are you doing this evening?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi. How are you?

JEROME: I`m not bad at all. Jane I have to start off first by saying that a lot of the salacious evidence that`s been presented in court these last couple of days has been just that, salacious. There`s nothing backing up anything.

And secondly I`m surprised that the judge is allowing this character assassination of poor Travis. I mean he`s already been -- he`s already been killed and assassinated physically. Now they`re allowing her to go on metaphysically. There`s nothing to support --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Jerome you make a great point, and the reason is it`s a death penalty case. And some people feel that it was a strategic error because they kind of predicted that she would have to take the stand given the fact that she was definitely there, they found a bloody palm print with his blood and her blood so that by saying it`s got to be the death penalty, they open the door for her to say anything because she`s got her life on the line.

So now she`s turned this into what I call "The Vagina Monologues". On the other side, we`re going to take more from Travis`s Alexander`s dear friend and take more of your calls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: You introduced me you to KY did you not?

ARIAS: I introduced you to KY.

ALEXANDER: I had never -- I had heard of it obviously, but I had never used it.

ARIA: You know, I had never used it and I had always heard of it until one day I just thought because it`s so cliche, I mean pee people make fun of it, you know, but it`s great stuff.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for "Pet o` the Day". Send your pet pics to hlntv.com/jane. Sadie, you graduated. We`re so happy for you. And Bart who said I graduated long ago and now I`m retired. Bogie is just gorgeous with those sun glasses. Yes, making the scene. Owen is studious. He`s studious, studious, studious.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: I wasn`t angry I was just shocked, like I thought --

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Objection.

ARIAS: I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t need to apologize to him, Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`m going to object to defense counsel`s outburst.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh, Jon Leiberman, these two hate each other it appears, just like Jose Baez and Jeff Ashton seemed to detest each other.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look, their snarky comments back and forth are just another sideshow just like the salacious sex is. You can tell Mr. Martinez the prosecutor is frustrated. He`s frustrated that Jodi Arias has had 60 months to conjure up this quote/unquote "fear of Travis Alexander". She`s not coming off as genuine on the stand. There`s no evidence to back up much of this, again, conjured-up fear. So I think Mr. Martinez is ready to get his crack at cross-examination.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and the reason that I bring up the other side is because I`ve been through this 15 times, most recently Casey Anthony, where all the talking heads said she`s going down. She`s a liar, liar, liar and they convicted her of lying and they just overturned two of the lying convictions.

So we have to figure out what the prosecutor is going to do to burst this bubble on the other side.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dave Hall, Travis Alexander`s friend, how is this case being perceived in the Mormon community in Utah where you are?

DAVE HALL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Well, it`s not as big of a topic in Utah but down in Arizona there`s a lot of LDS people there and obviously we would rather be known for other Christian things that we do and not for this trial.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So it has to be painful, I guess?

HALL: It definitely doesn`t shed a good light on our beliefs and our values because both of these people were LDS and they obviously strayed from the course and the doctrine of the church.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Dave, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us, speaking for Travis, who can`t speak for himself.

Nancy is next.

END