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Mindy McCready`s Death; Was Travis A Sex Addict?
Aired February 18, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Mindy McCready`s tragic death.
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PINSKY: Depression, mental health issues kill? These are fatal conditions sometimes like any other medical problem?
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PINSKY: I said it again and again.
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PINSKY: We have to help those and demand those with mental health issues get help.
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PINSKY: After Aurora.
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PINSKY: His psychiatrists said do something, for some reason it didn`t happen.
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PINSKY: After Oregon.
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PINSKY: Law enforcement has become our mental health service of last resort. Because, as you`ve said earlier, the system is broken, and that`s when disaster really strikes.
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PINSKY: And just last week about Christopher Dorner.
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PINSKY: That is mental illness, everybody. So, once again, another one where somebody could have gotten help and perhaps could have been -- this whole tragedy could have been averted.
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PINSKY: We have been reporting on preventable tragedies but nothing changes and this is what happens. We need to begin dealing with illnesses above the neck, the same as we deal with those below.
Plus, is Jodi Arias, a love or even a sex addict?
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JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: That is so debasing. I like it.
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PINSKY: Was Travis Alexander a sex addict?
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TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: I`m going to tie your arms around a tree, blindfold you.
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PINSKY: Is tomorrow the day we`ll hear her version of how she killed him?
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Welcome to the program.
I`m also welcoming my co-host for the week, relationship coach Laura Baron.
Now, Laura, I am emotionally spent over this next story. I have been talking about it all day. It is, I am stricken, and saddened, and I am going to try to get into it a little bit here in a way that helps make people make sense of it and myself included.
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: Yes. I really appreciate your courage, Drew.
PINSKY: Thanks. OK. Well, I`m just -- it`s been something that has me -- I don`t know how to say it, it`s hard to say.
Mindy McCready apparently took her own life yesterday, this one month after the father of her youngest child killed himself. We`re going to speak to her friend, who spoke to Mindy a day before her death. He actually has tapes of a conversation that he had with her. We will hear that phone conversation.
First up, joining me: Shelly Sprague, resident technician on our rehab, "Celebrity Rehab" programs; Dr. Jeffrey Borenstein, psychiatrist and president of the Brain and Research Foundation; and "Dateline" NBC correspondent Andrea Canning.
Andrea, thank you so much for joining me.
I saw the interview you did, really one of the last TV interviews with Mindy. And the thing that struck me again was the pain that Mindy was in. Did you see that? Did you have concerns when you left her?
ANDREA CANNING, CONDUCTED LAST INTERVIEW WITH MINDY MCCREADY: She definitely was in a lot of pain. She was very fragile. She cried throughout the interview, especially, every time she would talk about David. It was clear that she loved him very much.
But there was also a strength in her that it seemed she wanted to be able to go on. She wanted to be able to go on for her children. I think that she was very afraid to get help. She was afraid what people would think of her.
And also there was this investigation into his death going on, at the same time, which she felt she was unfairly linked to, even though she was never considered a suspect. There were some tabloid reports. And that really, really brought her down. But she wanted to keep going.
So, when I heard the news, it was also just -- I feel emotionally spent as well because -- you know, I have known her for the past couple years, just spending so much time with her three weeks ago and then talking to her on the phone since. It just breaks my heart.
PINSKY: I actually spoke to her since I think about - maybe two weeks ago. And she agreed that she was going to go get treatment.
Dr. Borenstein, I want to bring you in now. This is the part that has me most disturbed, which is that Mindy was fearful of taking care of herself for fear of how the press and how people would judge her if she went into a hospital. She knew she was in trouble. She was shattered after the death of her boyfriend. She went in, and then didn`t stay. I think because of the persistent stigma.
What are we going to do about this?
DR. JEFFREY BORENSTEIN, PSYCHIATRIST: You know, you are absolutely right. Stigma blocks people from getting treatment. And it is -- we use the word stigma, it is more than that. It`s discrimination. It is discrimination on the part of the press. On the part of movies that inappropriately depict psychiatric conditions.
And that discrimination has to stop. Everybody has somebody that they know that they love that is affected by depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, chemical dependency, the other conditions.
And we all need to rise up and say stop this discrimination. Let people get treatment.
PINSKY: I agree with you.
Shelly, I`m going to bring you into this conversation. It`s like why above the neck, it`s a totally different thing. Let`s say somebody had cancer. They go to treatment. They have ongoing care. Their tumor recurs. You don`t say, oh my God what a what a weak patient. And how dare she go into the hospital? I mean, why didn`t her treatment work?
We don`t say that about diabetes and asthma and cancer. Why, Shelly? What do you think?
SHELLY SPRAGUE, RESIDENT TECHNICIAN, REHAB WITH DR. DREW: I think people are frightened of the illnesses and they want to deny. Unfortunately, our culture wants to deny things that are, you know, evident and killing people, you know, on a daily basis. And I find that it is quite disturbing that someone can`t get treatment due to these backwards ideas and stigmas.
This is, these are deadly diseases. These are diseases that ruin people`s lives. And my heart goes out to the family and friends of Mindy.
At this point, it`s so tragic, this, this whole situation is so incredibly tragic. And I hope that if there is anything that we could say is that please, get treatment. Stay in treatment. Work on getting better. And -- you know, get help. Please.
PINSKY: And, Andrea, I`m going to go back to you. Were the people around her concerned? Were they helping get her to treatment? Were they helping?
They eventually did get her to treatment I guess. But how did you find that part -- what was going on when you were talking to her as far as it pertains to those sorts of issues?
CANNING: When I arrived at her house, to do the interview and to talk to her, her best friend was with her, he had driven from Nashville to be with her. She was all alone after the shooting of her boyfriend. And the first thing he said to me is "I need to get her help right away."
And your name was even brought up, Dr. Drew, because she trusts you. And I know she reached out to you, her friend. And I know you talked to her after that.
But they were desperate to get her some help. I don`t know if she was quite ready at that moment. She kind of turned a corner after our interview. Here friend told me she had become a lot stronger, but then, she loss her two boys to the foster care system.
And that`s when things really fell apart. She made a call to her father. Her father was very, very concerned. She was saying things that were indicative of someone who may take their life, saying goodbye, things like that. He called the authorities. Then they took her to the mental health facility.
And we know she didn`t last there very long, which is the sad part of this, because her demons were so deep. She needed that time to heal and to get professional help.
PINSKY: Absolutely. Treatment works.
Laura, you had a question. We`ve got a terrible technical problem. When I speak to you, I get tremendous feedback, all kinds of goofy sounds. But go ahead.
BARON: Andrea, I know you reached out days before she committed suicide. Was there something that you were sensing?
CANNING: I just hadn`t heard from her in a while. After she was gung-ho to call me all the time, and she had idea and thoughts. I told her I am always here for you. You call me whenever you want.
Then I just didn`t hear from her. I knew she had gone to this mental health facility. I just had a feeling something was wrong. So, I texted her two nights before her death and I didn`t hear back. I just assumed she was still in the mental health facility, because I had not heard she had been released.
So, you know, I`m thinking, OK, she`s probably OK. She probably just doesn`t have her cell phone right now. And then I got the horrible, worst case scenario news I could ever imagine.
PINSKY: Her family as well.
Dr. Borenstein, go ahead. I want you to wrap it up too. Doctor, I will give you a chance to comment, wrap it up, and also talk about how we as physicians have to feel more empowered to allow our instincts to prevail.
You know, we don`t -- we are all afraid of being sued or, following the laws, and restricting somebody`s rights by keeping them at home, where they know they are and knowing that there are firearms at home when they return home, what do we need to do, and finish your comment and we`ll wrap up?
BORENSTEIN: We need to be more proactive. If somebody is at risk we need to make sure they`re in treatment. And sometimes the -- some laws need to be changed to err on the side of safety instead of on the concern of civil liberties. We need to make sure people are safe.
PINSKY: That`s right. Dr. Borenstein, I completely agree.
Next up, I`ve gotten one of Mindy`s friend who spoke to her the day before she died. He is here.
And later on, we`re going to go back to Jodi Arias. She is going to be back on the stand this week. Can her testimony become even more graphic?
Back after this.
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MINDY MCCREADY, COUNTRY SINGER: Dr. Drew is a man, which I cannot say enough good things about. I have more respect for him than I have ever had respect for any man in my entire life. And I truly do love the man. I think that he really truly cares about every single one of his patients.
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PINSKY: That was Mindy McCready on "Extra," talking about her treatment. Very kind words.
But the reason I wanted to show that to you is -- Shelly, I want you to share this with me -- is that we have a lot of people that went through treatment with us that feel extremely positive about their treatment and about their relationship with the treatment team, and yet they may not have continued on, either with us or some other treatment team. And as such, Shelly, really still at profound risk.
SPRAGUE: Yes, unfortunately, these types of chronic and progressive illnesses take a long time and take a lot of consistent years of outpatient, years of after care. And I think what we do for people is we get them started on the road, but they have continue and they can`t just drop out of treatment and I find that so many people don`t continue treatment as recommended and as suggested by yourself and myself.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, Shelly. Because I think that point needs to be made, that these are illnesses I said in the last segment with Dr. Borenstein, that unlike asthma, unlike cancer, and they are chronic. They need ongoing maintenance and care. It`s like something like a pneumonia, where you are treated and you get better.
Even the language we use about this, "conquering their illness", that`s wrong. It`s enrolling and maintaining.
Joining my co-host Laura Baron and I right now -- Laura, you wanted to comment?
BARON: Well, Drew, I was wondering. I mean, even the fact that her ex- fiance committed suicide, could that throw off her entire treatment plan?
PINSKY: Well, absolutely.
PINSKY: Absolutely. She was doing better until that happened and completely unraveled up.
Dr. Borenstein, do you want to comment on that as well?
BORENSTEIN: Yes, absolutely. A significant risk factor is having some body close to a person die from suicide. So, that was a red flag that should have be (ph) in treatment.
PINSKY: Now, joining us is Mindy`s close friend, Danno Hanks.
Danno spoke with Mindy on Saturday and recorded the conversation. Listen as she talks about her boyfriend, David, who we just mentioned, had killed himself. He again was the father of one of the children.
Take a listen.
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MCCREADY: David -- none of this means anything. You didn`t have to do this. Please don`t die. Now, we`re all trying to heal, while everybody is trying to get over this. It`s the cruelest, most awful situation we`ve ever see, I just can`t imagine it.
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PINSKY: And, Danno, I know you were close friend for many years. And here she is in that awful pain. And then she lost the custody of the children again.
Is that -- was that the final straw for her? And -- yes, go ahead.
DANNO HANKS, SPOKE WITH MINDY ON SATURDAY: That absolutely was the final straw. I mean, she -- she loved her children. She is in the middle of feeling with this death.
And the only thing that was helping her hold it together was to have her children there. And Andrea was talking about one of her other good friends who I have known for as long as I have known Mindy who rushed to her side and stayed there. But after Mindy`s father arrived, he, you know, thought it would be OK for him to go become to Nashville and, unfortunately, he wasn`t around. Because he had a more of a grasp on Mindy`s true condition as, as did I.
And the strange thing about it is Mindy had a grasp on her condition. But she just -- it was like she would talk about herself in the third person. And she would talk about the same symptoms that she suffered from in talking about David. She`d say, "Well, you know, he goes off his meds because he is starting to feel better." But she wouldn`t see that condition in herself. You know, I am stopping therapy because I feel better.
As you said, it`s an ongoing thing. It`s not something where you take a pill and now you are done. You have to continue with the therapy.
PINSKY: Danno -- right. And, Danno --
PINSKY: -- do you think had she stayed in the hospital as many of us do, she`d still be with us today?
HANKS: Absolutely, I do. You know, even if she was allowed to go home and be on outpatient, if somebody had, you know, taken guns out of the house. And it wasn`t like they didn`t know.
David was an avid gun collector. He was -- what I would refer to as a gun nut. I mean, he was well known in the community as being somebody who spent a lot of time in a local gun store and ranted about his First Amendment rights and how he had the right to have guns. And it was well- known that there were a lot of guns in that house.
Now, what person in their right mind says, you know, go home, Mindy and be with the guns. And that`s, you know, basically what they did. If --
BARON: So, Danno, did you tape those conversations out of concern?
HANKS: Well, here`s the thing is -- Mindy and I were dealing with some legal problems together that she was having, and I was helping her on that as well as this. And I was trying to take notes. She knew that I am terrible at that. And so, we talked.
I said I have got to tape the conversations. I had no idea at the time that, you know, this would be a --
PINSKY: That we`d be here.
HANKS: -- preserved as last conversations with her.
PINSKY: Dr. Borenstein, I want to go -- I want to go out to you. And, again, Danno, I`m sorry to interrupt.
Dr. Borenstein, try to wrap this up for us in terms of helping people understand. It is complicated, right? That these illnesses above the neck are as dangerous as cancer and heart disease, and if somebody doesn`t want treatment, you can find conservatorships, you can law enforcement. If somebody does want treatment, but is ending treatment prematurely, there are things you can do to help that people gain insight and do what they need to do.
What is the average person need to k now, Dr. Borenstein?
BORENSTEIN: First and foremost, what you just said.
Secondly, with treatment, people get better. People are able to get into recovery for chemical dependency. People are able to have a depression lift if they have depression. So, with treatment, people get better.
And the tragedy is, suicides could be prevented. Every 13 minutes in our country, somebody dies from suicide. And with treatment, that could be prevented. And that`s the important message for people watching right now.
PINSKY: And I think -- and reminding people that restricting their personal freedoms for a few days is for their own good. Or even a couple of weeks, the suicidality passes, the addictions settle. If you do hold people in an environment that is safe, these things get better and then they need ongoing care.
But just the simple maneuvers, and knowing it.
And I would say, Dr. Borenstein, lastly, don`t go alone. Don`t do this alone. If you know somebody who is in trouble or if you yourself are or you love someone who is -- ask for help. Law enforcement, mental health, emergency room, medical doctors -- they can all help. Would you agree?
BORENSTEIN: There are professionals out there waiting to help. This is what we do for a living. This is what we like to do. We just need people to come and seek the help, and accept the help.
PINSKY: There you go. Thank you very much.
BARON: Let`s hope so.
PINKSY: Thank you.
Next up, the Jodi Arias trial? Was the man she killed, would somebody call him a sex addict? We`re going to ask an expert after the break.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
ARIAS: Oh, my gosh!
ALEXANDER: We`ve had two or three hour sessions many times. Certainly the best times are when we just go for a freaking romp session, just like go forever. The way you moan Jodi sounds like a 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. It`s so hot.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is part of a 40-minute phone sex tape that Jodi Arias recorded a month before killing Travis Alexander.
And back with my co-host this week, Laura Baron.
Reminder that we are talking about adult issues tonight.
And, Laura, the family of the victim had to sit through the tapes for 40 minutes. It was just excruciating I would imagine.
BARON: Yes, I cannot even imagine what they must be going through. And for the fact that she taped it, is so suspicious to me anyway.
BARON: You know, nobody deserves to have their bedroom put on public display like this.
PINSKY: Well, it makes you wonder if they were having perhaps a -- that prompt needs to roll back where I had it. Appreciate if you would leave it where it was.
But perhaps she was planning a blackmail or some reason.
BARON: I agree.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s right.
Now, in the course of this, the defense tried to portray Travis, the victim, as a sexual deviant.
PINSKY: My question was all along was, is he a sex addict?
So, joining to discuss body language expert and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me", Janine Driver. I also have attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, and Rob Weiss, director at Sexual Recovery Institute.
Rob, thank you so much for joining. My first question is first to you.
Help people understand the difference between some one who is highly sexual, hypersexual or maybe into nontraditional kinds of behavior, versus a sex addict. And if you can also answer, from your understanding, so far, do you think Travis was a sex addict?
ROB WEISS, SEXUAL DISORDER EXPERT: Well, sex addiction like alcoholism isn`t, by how often you have sex or the kind of sex, it`s more defined by the consequences that your sexual behavior has on your life. So, if Travis was a sex addict, I don`t know if he was or wasn`t, he would have a history of issues that would be showing up.
In other words, there would have been problems in his history with other people complaining of his sexual behavior, other people saying they didn`t like what he had done, there`d be history on his computer, different kind of acting out. There wouldn`t be one incident or one series of incidents with one person. That doesn`t really define or speak to me of sex addiction.
PINSKY: Is anyone -- interesting question, I have, I want to get into it a little bit -- is there ever a situation where one person sort of triggers an addictive sort of stickiness in the relationship? Because Travis was a devout Mormon. This was all contrary to how he thought of himself. He hid it. But he couldn`t stop going back to her.
So, some relationships, I guess my question -- have sort of an addictive quality but not be truly sex addiction?
WEISS: Well, there are certainly some people who have disorders that involve them being seductive, very manipulative, one thing about sociopaths they can be extremely charming, a part of the pathology. So I can imagine being very drawn to someone who is finding me fascinating and wanting to have sex with me all the time, playing into all of my ego issues.
PINSKY: OK. So, Rob --
WEISS: I can imagine that being something.
PINSKY: Yes. Now, Rob, I`m going to interrupt you. I`m running out of time here. I am going to keep the conversation going. I have to take a quick break.
But you are going right at what I think the issue is. I see Jodi more as the manipulator.
BARON: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: The problem here, she`s the abuser and, by the way, she`s the one who ends up killing the guy. I mean, she`s the ultimate form of abuse.
So, we have to take a quick broke. I`m sorry, I haven`t spoken to Janine or Mark yet. I will.
The question is, up next, did the phone sex tape, help or hurt Jodi`s case? We`ll talk about that after the break.
And later, I`ve got what we call my jurors. They heard all the graphic stuff in court. I will ask them what they think about it and what their perception of the family`s take on it was.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He also says in this message, you are the ultimate slut in bed. What did that mean to you? Was there some history behind that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s that history?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes, he would call me that when we were having sex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about feeling like you`ve been raped, but you`ll enjoy every delightful moment of it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: More details about Jodi and Travis` sex life that have been playing out in court. I`m back with my co-host, Laura Baron for this week. Oh my goodness! Janine, so it seems like Jodi is making herself out to be the victim. Janine, do you buy it? Do you think anyone is buying it?
JANIE DRIVER, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Dr. Drew, we see at some parts, with the voicemail and with text messages, we see little smirks on her face, and this is what we called, in my world, the tech (ph) and deception, it`s called duping delight. That smirk of I showed him. I`ve got the last word. I`m the person of power. And we saw this with Casey Anthony.
We`ve seen this with, many, many murderers that are being put on the stand. We see this, Scott Peterson, Drew Peterson. It`s a look that we often see, duping delight. That little smirk.
PINSKY: So, Rob, I want to go back to you. And Mark, I`m sorry to keep passing over you, but I`m going to go to Rob again. It`s sort of, you building your case, I think, that the sociopath is Jodi in this thing who manipulated him and got him sort of stuck in some addictive behaviors.
As someone who deals with this, and let`s not call him a sex addict at this point, is this a cautionary tale? Is there something -- I mean, sexual behaviors are not something to take casually. People should be very, you know, circumspect. And I think we are too casual about these things, are we not?
ROB WEISS, SEXUAL DISORDER EXPERT, PROMISES TREATMENT CENTER: Well, I can`t say what goes on inside someone else`s bedroom or what they decide to do as consenting adults. But I can say that if you feel like you don`t have a real relationship with someone one, but they keep kind of showing up in your life and they`re using sex as a means to get your attention and to get your attraction, there`s something not quite right about that.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: But isn`t that part of the trust? Isn`t that part of the relationship? I mean, can`t these people just say they like to talk raw, rancid dirty sex?
PINSKY: Well, they could say that, but Mark, I`m going to go to you know. What do you say to somebody who said, oh, they`re just playing, ended up in a death.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. They are just playing. To me, again, this is my opinion. I think the jurors probably are finding the same thing. This appears to be an imaginary, volunteer, consensual relationship between two people. That`s inconsistent with what she`s portraying, which means that she`s being intellectually dishonest with this jury, and they don`t like that.
PINSKY: And Janine -- that she`s also showing things on her face that suggests, Mark, you`re right. Rob, go ahead.
WEISS: Well, I`m just thinking if you`re a woman who`s living with someone who`s abusing you, it`s very difficult to get out of that circumstance if you have kids with them and you`re living with them. And you know, they`re watching you every time you go out the door.
But if you live, you know, a few hundred miles away, and you`re having phone sex with them, it`s sort of hard to defend that they`re abusing you. I mean, that`s just hard for me to believe.
PINSKY: Interesting. Very good point. Let`s go to a phone call. Nicole, I believe, we`ve got in Canada. Nicole, are you there?
NICOLE, CANADA: Yes, I`m here.
PINSKY: Go right ahead.
NICOLE: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just was wondering watching all this on TV, I feel like some of the behaviors I`m seeing between Jodi and Travis are -- I`m feeling like I`m mirroring -- my own relationship was mirrored in those behaviors. So, how do I know, you know, if I`m addicted to love or my boyfriend`s addicted to sex? How do I tell?
PINSKY: OK. Excellent. Rob, a beautiful question for you. Go ahead.
WEISS: Well, again, one of the ways we define sex addiction or even sort of an obsessive love relationship is in terms of how it`s affecting the rest of your life. So, if your sexual behavior or relationship activity is completely overwhelming your family life, your work life, you`re getting in trouble, someone has turned you down and you keep going back for more or you`re getting -- there`s trouble.
There`s problems. Just like there`s problems around drug and alcohols for the drug addict, or alcoholic. There are problems around sexuality and relationship when someone becomes obsessive or addictive.
BARON: And may I say, too, beyond addiction, honey if you are sensing trouble, if you are sensing danger in your relationship, and there`s any mirroring of this relationship to yours, get out. High tail it.
PINSKY: Get out or at least don`t go it alone. Something I`ve been trying to say tonight. We`re talking about serious mental health issues here. Go get help. Let me go out to Gail in Wisconsin -- Gail. I don`t think we have Gail. Let`s go right to Denise then. Denise, you`re in Nevada. Denise, go right ahead. Oh, our phones are not working tonight. Well, that`s interesting.
BARON: I actually have a question on this whole addiction thing.
BARON: Because I really think that, and I know that I`m going to get railroaded for this, but I sent it out on Twitter, and people agree. It just sounds like -- it sounds like an excuse to juror (ph). It sounds like what politicians, what celebrities say, who are messing around on the people.
PINSKY: Laura, I`m glad you asked that, because as someone -- I`ve seen real sex addiction. When you see the real deal, it`s not so mysterious and it`s not something you can say is being trumped up. So, Rob, again, I`m glad I have you here for that question. Go ahead.
WEISS: You know, Laura, I mean, I just want to say to you all, I can understand the idea that sex addiction would be a fun thing to have or you know something that`s just an excuse for bad behavior. The people who actually come to treatment often have profound sexual abuse, intimacy disorders, mental health issues, you know, there is an idea of what sex addiction is and then there`s the reality of what it is.
And it`s sort of like someone who likes to drink occasionally versus someone who`s alcoholic. You know, the occasional drink is fun, but drinking like an alcoholic is not fun. And it`s really the same for the person who`s sexually acting out.
EIGLARSH: So, Drew, let me ask a question.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark. Please.
EIGLARSH: Can I ask a question? So, taking the activities that they`re involved with. You know, all of those activities as a whole, if you have two people who are consenting to those activities, saying things to each other that you wouldn`t normally, let say, want to say to someone, but hey, they like it.
That isn`t problematic is what I`m hearing. It`s just if somehow it becomes obsessive or dangerous, that`s when it becomes unhealthy.
PINSKY: And, something we have not focused in on is that if the partner is manipulating somebody into a sexual compulsion, maybe it`s the person doing the manipulating that is that issue here. And Janine, you`re building the case. Rob, you`re building that case. Can you finish this out?
DRIVER: Well, Dr. Drew, we know this about people with detecting deception, people who have power like a beautiful person like Jodi Arias. She has power with the sex, with her body, the sexuality. People with power, they have a decrease in cortisol when they lie. A normal person lying has an increase in cortisol, the stress hormone. People in power, they have that sexuality, they have power.
What happens, they think quickly on their feet. They have increased in their cognitive load, so they can lie at the drop of the hat. No matter what you ask, they`re going to have that increase in that cognitive thinking, really quick on their feet. A normal person lying has a decrease in cognitive mode.
They stutter and stammer when they answer your question. And at the end of the day, the person in power focuses on the reward. What do they get? A normal every day person who lies, focuses on the consequences.
So, at end of the day, Jodi Arias might think she`s fooling the jury, but they`re going to see what Travis alexander`s friends saw which is this soulless human being that after meeting her a couple times said I want you to keep her away from me, from my family, from my children, from my home.
PINSKY: Very interesting. I`m glad we didn`t get any calls. That was very interesting. Rob Weiss, thank you so much for joining. I appreciate it.
Next up, he dated Jodi. Now, he`s becoming one of the most talked about men in the trial, Abe Abdelhadi. You`ve seen him here before. He`s back exclusively with us.
And later, the jury is off for the weekend, but doesn`t mean we don`t know what they could be thinking. My jurors are going to tell us their thoughts after -- later on in the program. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said I`ve got bone to pick with you, and he wrote back, what? And I said, you`re not on MySpace friend anymore. And then the phone rang, it`s him. He`s like, hey, listen, this is like I deleted you from my friend who I just didn`t want to be any part of your drama with you and Travis.
He`s like -- I mean, he did bring that up, though. He`s like, I don`t understand. You know, I see you in the bathroom and (INAUDIBLE) goes to him. Like, he doesn`t even see. He looks right through me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what am I supposed to say. Hey, it`s my girlfriend? And I put out like (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Laura Baron, and that was one of the few PG rated clips from the Jodi and Travis phone sex recording. They were talking about my next guest who joins me exclusively. Jodi`s one-time date, Abe Abdelhadi. And there`s Abe, I want you to listen because that wasn`t the only mention Abe got in court. Watch this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who Abe Abdelhadi is?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, i know Abe. If I understand correctly, Mr. Abdelhadi is a peering telephonically.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Abdelhadi?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, miss.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His name is Abe Abdelhadi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many dates did you have with Mr. Abdelhadi?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one. It was Abe, the guy, I had gone on a date with several months earlier.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was he unhappy with the fact that you were talking to Mr. Abdelhadi?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you don`t like Abe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Well, he is soulless.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You walked by and you grabbed my butt. And you`re like there`s Abe. I`m like, what?
This is an e-mail I composed to Abe. I first composed it and sent it off to Abe Abdelhadi. So, I wasn`t dating Abe during this time, but I was still his friend. Travis was not comfortable with me hugging Abe. Would I have done that, would have hugged Abe if Travis were with me so that he would feel better about my interaction with Abe and so that Abe was on the same page as me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t hold any ill will to Mr. Abdelhadi, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t want to kick his (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in the bathroom?
PINSKY: And there were many, many more. We just don`t have time to show them all. Abe, do you --
BARON: You`re a star.
PINSKY: Do you resent being brought into this? You were trying to avoid the drama that`s why you deleted her and now look what happened?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI, TESTIFIED IN HER MURDER TRIAL: Well, this girl said my name more times than girls I`ve gone out with. So, there`s something to be said for that, I suppose. But, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that she used a lot of different people who I will not, you know, bring up who they are, frankly. But she used a lot of different people to try to manipulate Travis.
And so, my theory is, in this case, I`m probably the only person that can be proven, because they`re trying to go for this abuse case. They`re trying to prove that, you know, I was the reason that he went off on her and twisted her wrist or whatever else he did to her, which is an absolute untruth. It`s not even in the realm of possibilities.
So, it`s a little frustrating to hear all this stuff after the fact because I`m just kind of floating along with my life, thinking, OK, I`m friendly with this girl. I know this girl. We went out once. You know, we had a phone relationship. I`d seen her here and there. I didn`t think I was the issue in any way, shape, form in this relationship at all.
So, it`s pretty surprising. Little frustrating. And you know, kind of plays into my trust issues, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Well, I imagine -- yes.
BARON: And Abe, how is this affecting your dating life? I mean, are women suspicious of you? Are you -- how are you getting along? I mean, you clearly don`t have the best taste, no offense.
ABDELHADI: Well, I mean, I`m fine. I mean, what do you do? You just sort of, you know, charge along. It is what it is. I mean, everybody is entitled to lightning hitting once, I suppose. So, that`s the kind of the end of that, I imagine. I mean, what do you do? You just --
PINSKY: Abe, we`re starting to zero in here, though. I think today has been kind of important in terms of my understanding of Jodi. We`re zeroing in on the degree of manipulation and distortions. You were important to her because you were a pawn in the game.
And so, you came up lots, even though you were just going on with your life. You became a main player in her overall drama even though you thought you cut yourself off from it?
ABDELHADI: Well, the -- absolutely. Well, the situation, though, I think is interesting. It`s not so much that we went out, you know, once or twice. We hung out a little bit before that date. It`s a subsequent 18 months before she actually did kill Travis. And all the conversations that we did have and the things that she would say about him, none of which indicate any kind of an abuse, none of which indicate any sort of threats or anything.
She never told me ever one time that he was abusive to her, that the problems that they did have stemmed from any kind of violence. It all came from her trying to manipulate him. It all came from her trying --
PINSKY: Well, let me say it again. She kept you involved in her life so she could manipulate him, the whole time complaining to you about how her undividing love for him was being sort of un -- was unrequited?
ABDELHADI: Absolutely, and that`s the challenge. I`m the friend here, thinking -- and I`m friends with several girls that I`ve gone out with. This isn`t new for me. I`ve done it before. I`ve got a lot of good girlfriends that I actually initially dated or tried to date. I thought this was just one of those things.
And I`m pretty appropriate when it comes to that. I don`t, you know, hit on them again or any of that kind of stuff. It`s not necessary. There`s more fish in the sea. The challenge with her is that she used me kind of behind my back to make this guy jealous. I think you asked me last week how I felt about what he said about calling me soulless.
I cannot honestly be angry with a dead guy who got bad information from his girlfriend who was lying to him. It`s not the first time in the history of the world that a girl lied to a guy.
PINSKY: That`s right. Thank you, Abe Abdelhadi. I`ll also have to say thanks to Mark Eiglarsh and Janine Driver. Now, after this, what impact did the sex tape make on my jurors? We`ll talk to two women who heard it and are ready to react. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What made you want to follow this trial? What are you doing in the courtroom?
JACOB WHITEHURST, SAID HE`S INTO ARIAS TRIAL BECAUSE OF HIS WIFE: I`m going to be honest, my wife got involved in it. So, she got involved in it means I get involved in it.
BARON: Are you, in anyway, connected to anyone in the case?
JACOB WHITEHURST: Personally, no. Nobody.
PINSKY: We have learned Jacob is severely co-dependent, though. He`s going to rescue Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: And if his wife likes the case, he likes the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is time for what we call Dr. Drew`s jury. I`m back with co- host this week, relationship coach, Laura Barren. Joining us, Katie Wick, who`s become a professional juror for us, and Melissa Whitehurst, who`s husband you just saw in the clip.
Now, Melissa, so I should ask you. Since he said it was because of you, I`ll ask the same question to you. What was so intriguing about this case that you went out and you dragged your husband on into it?
MELISSA WHITEHURST, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, honestly, I guess the popularity of it, being that it`s in our hometown. I got involved in it. And I`m a stay-at-home mom, so it`s the most exciting thing on TV right now and I pulled him in. And, you know, got his eye on it. So, that`s why.
PINSKY: Well, I`m glad to know that you guys share things. Lots of activities, together.
MELISSA WHITEHURST: Yes, according to you, we do. Yes. Thank you.
PINSKY: But, Katie, I`m going to go out to you and this, this tape played for hours in court. Did it impact you having to sit through that, particularly, you were just in proximity to the poor family?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": It did. Actually, I was watching what really hit me was the end when Travis started to sing. I didn`t know Travis, but Dr. Drew, put my head down because I was kind of laughing to myself because it was just -- it was so -- it was funny to me. And I saw, Tanisha, Travis` sister kind of smile. And afterwards, I talked to a couple of Travis` friend.
And they said, Katie, we had to actually put our heads down in the courtroom, too, because we started laughing. They said that`s what Travis used to do. He would just break out in song to things like that all the time. And I think, at the end of the day, my personal belief, I don`t think it hurt -- I don`t think it hurt Travis in the way people view him.
I think it actually humanized him. And I think any time you can get the victim or the victim`s voice inside that courtroom for the jury to hear, I just -- I don`t think it hurt him as much as some other people suggested it did.
PINSKY: Melissa, do you agree with that?
MELISSA WHITEHURST: Not necessarily. I think the first 20 minutes of it, even just the way that he was sabotaging the people that she wanted to talk about, saying that they were soulless, you know, it`s, it definitely had a different perspective. You know, he was very defensive towards what she wanted to talk about.
And she didn`t want to get argumentative. And she just, you know, went along with what made Travis happy. So, we definitely have two different perspectives on that.
PINSKY: I`ve got very limited time. I want to see if I can get a call in here. Helen in Wisconsin. I`ve virtually no time, my dear, but you have a question?
HELEN, WISCONSIN: OK. Dr. Drew, I`m just wondering, could -- do you think Jodi actually caused this sex addiction in him because he was in this Mormon faith and never had any kind of sex and was very, you know, rigid in his, blah, blah, blah, and then all of a sudden --
PINSKY: That`s kind of -- that`s sort of the case -- that`s sort of what we began hearing today as we talked to experts that she was sort of manipulated into it. Melissa and Katie, were you listening to the commentary earlier and do you agree with it?
WICK: Yes. Somewhat, Dr. Drew, but it`s interesting. Melissa and I, we were talking before we went on about where we think the defense is going to take it when we get to the day of Travis` death. My personal belief is I think that they`re going to go the route that when Travis and Jodi were going their separate ways that night that Travis was murdered, they maybe got into an argument. And jodi threatened that she was going to expose Travis for the pictures on the bed.
PINSKY: And the recording, the recording she kept, too. Right, Laura?
BARON: Yes. I got to say that I really feel and I hate that I say this, but it kind of humanizes Jodi, too. I mean, it does show that they were in a really destructive relationship. I don`t know how this is going to play out for her.
PINSKY: It does. That`s messy. It`s interesting to me, ladies, that the men and the women have separated, that long tape made people feel -- men are little more creep out about her. And ladies feel like she`s more humanized.
BARON: I know. Why is that, Drew?
PINSKY: I don`t know. We`ll have to leave that for a later time. We have to take a break. Thank you, Katie Wick and Melissa Whitehurst.
Next up, we`re going to wrap things up. Be right back.
PINSKY: So, move along. Like to end our show tonight with a tribute to Mindy McCready. We had some footage of her in happier times. I don`t know if we`ll have a chance to show that. She had number one hit on the billboard country charts with "Guys Do It All The Time, courtesy of BMG Records. For more about Mindy, tune in to "Showbiz Tonight" at 11:00 eastern. This is tonight on HLN.
Laura, I`ve got to just sign out very quickly. You and I tomorrow back with Jodi Arias back on the stand.
PINSKY: Thank you to all my guests. Thank you for calling. And Laura, thank you for the great support tonight. You`ve done a great job. Reminder to everybody, I`ve got to go right out. "Nancy Grace" starts right now.