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Jodi Testifies About Moment She Killed Alexander
Aired February 20, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Day nine, Jodi Arias on the stand. She finally testifies about the moment she killed Travis Alexander.
JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: He was chasing me.
PINSKY: She reached for the gun but draws a blank about the most important part.
ARIAS: I have no memory of stabbing him.
PINSKY: Her seemingly razor-sharp memory.
ARIAS: He was drinking chai tea. I was drinking a latte.
PINSKY: Suddenly foggy about the critical moment.
ARIAS: I don`t know if I blacked out.
PINSKY: Jodi`s stories, how many versions are there? Which ones will the jurors and which ones do my jurors believe?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. Welcome to the program.
Joining me, my co-host for the week, Laura Baron. I`ve also got criminologist Casey Jordan.
But first, it was the moment we`ve all been waiting for -- excruciating detail about Jodi`s lattes in 1997 and unbelievably intolerable detail about her sexual encounters. And she finally gets to the moment when she`s going to kill Travis, but she got nothing after that. There`s just nothing there.
And, by the way, this is the third version of she said what happened in June of 2008. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
INVESTIGATOR: You`re even denying the pictures of you being there. There`s pictures of you lying on the bed in pigtails.
ARIAS: I wasn`t there.
I witnessed Travis being attacked by two other individuals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who?
ARIAS: I don`t know who they were. I couldn`t pick them out in a police line-up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what happened?
ARIAS: They came into his home and attacked us both.
As I moved the camera, it slipped out of my hand. Travis flipped out. He lifted me up as he was screaming that I was a stupid idiot, and he body slammed me. I rolled off to my left and began to run down the hallway. I could hear his footsteps chasing me.
I remembered where he kept the gun. So I grabbed it. He ran, chasing me. And I turned around and pointed it at him so that he would stop chasing me.
I grabbed the gun. I ran out of the closet. He was chasing me. I turned around. We were in the middle of the bathroom, pointed it at him with both of my hands. Like a linebacker he got kind of low and grabbed my waist.
But before he did that as he was lunging at me the gun went off. I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. I didn`t even think I was pulling the trigger. We were struggling and wrestling. After I broke away from him he said (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I`ll kill you, bitch.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Beth Karas covering the trial for "In Session."
Beth, I have so many interesting feelings to say. Watching her lined up with her three different stories as we just did, you see what she did on the stand, much more polished, much more vague, much more difficult to sort of attack. I encourage -- my producers are going to laugh at me and kill me at the same time for what I`m about to say. All day I`ve been listening to a song from the musical "Chicago," the movie "Chicago."
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: Puts you in the mood for murder.
PINSKY: I challenge everyone to look up, "Reached for the Gun", and you`ll see word for word in the lyrics it`s the Jodi Arias defense, word for word. And they reach for the gun. She then goes on to tell us about the stabbing and she got nothing. We got as far as reach for the gun and then it all end. So, what --
BARON: I knew jazz hands were murderous.
PINSKY: What were the jurors left with at the end of the day, Beth?
BETH KARAS, IN SESSION CORRESPONDENT: What they were left with was something so anti-climactic, it`s your theme right now. They didn`t get details at all. She blacks out of all of the stabbings. We`re talking about nine in the back, the slash across the throat, 29 altogether, stabs and slashes.
Shot to the head is the one thing she remembered. Although what she said didn`t make sense because she said they were facing each other standing and that bullet was going down from here to here. So she was over him when she fired that gun. So that didn`t make sense.
She doesn`t remember dragging his body, putting it in the shower. No mention of taking the camera, deleting all those incriminating photos, putting his clothes and towels and the camera in the washing machine. No mention of an attempt to at least clean up. She needed to get out of the house within a half hour or an hour because one of his roommates was due home at 6:00, 6:30. She was killing him at 5:30.
So there`s nothing until she`s driving in the desert. She has blood on her hands. There`s blood nowhere in the house but the bathroom.
So the jury must have been left with simply scratching their heads, saying, did we just hear her talk about details for eight days, even of that day, until this and we got nothing? This is the key that we`ve got to decide if she was justified in doing it and we`ve got nothing to base it on.
PINSKY: And, Beth, you were there in the courtroom. How did the jurors look to you? Mystified? Angry? What was your sense?
KARAS: They don`t really emote. I can`t see anything in their faces, giving away what they were feeling. But they were all turned slightly to their left, which is facing the witness box. And they`re just intent on looking at her because this is the day, day eight, of her testimony, that everyone had been waiting for. Occasional notes, but just focused on her.
Now and then toward the end, I saw some jurors look away from her. Maybe they had checked out. I don`t know. Tomorrow, though, cross- examination begins, and that`s what everyone is waiting for because that`s the true test of her story, how it will hold up on cross.
PINSKY: Yes. I wonder how that`s going to go.
Casey, I want to have you -- I`ve got a lot of questions for you. We`ve got a couple blocks with you. But give me your broad strokes on what you take away from the testimony today.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Absolutely the same thing that Beth said. Now, of course, I`m not in the courtroom. I don`t get to see the jurors, but like everyone else -- and we`re following the blogs.
We`re seeing what people say on our Facebook pages and everything. Everyone has been waiting. Have you ever seen a movie that`s just so bad and you want to walk out of it, so boring, so dull but you keep thinking it`s got to get better, I`m going to stay to the end, maybe there`s a twist, and at end of the movie, it literally fades to black and you`re going, that was it? I should have left this a long time ago.
They have been faced with seven, eight days of really such dull, boring, methodical testimony that really seems to be pointless 90 percent of the time, that they were really hoping that it was all leading to an explanation of how things went down.
And instead, they were robbed. They ended up with a story of I don`t really remember, I have no memory of 27 stab wounds. Let`s not mention the slicing of the throat.
I can`t even tell you if the gun went off, I just remember I woke up kind of in the desert, threw the gun into the desert and proceeded with life. Oh, and sugarcoated everything. None of this helps her. All I can think is that the defense is truly just trying to save her life at this point by making her pathetic.
PINSKY: Well, reasonably, that`s their job. But, Laura, isn`t it interesting the cinematic references we keep coming up with? I almost wonder if it`s the defense literally putting those sorts of ideas in our brain, the psycho, Chicago, and now, we sort of feel the whole experience of watching her is like a bad movie.
BARON: Yes. And it`s just when you think you can root for the psychotic main character that she`s got some heart, she cuts it off for you. You know, I got incredibly emotional when you I saw Travis`s sister in that front row. And that`s actually, Beth, being in the courtroom, what I wanted to ask you.
Is did you see Jodi make any eye contact, or the jurors notice that?
PINSKY: Laura, I`m going to have to hold that question until after the break. And also, hang on, ladies, I`ve got -- Beth, stay with us. I`ve also got more questions for Casey about the memory issue and what we think about that.
I also have my own thoughts about the bullet and how it entered the brain. Is it possible he could have kept after her after a bullet in the brain? And did she truly forget or did she just lie?
And later, two guys who know the Jodi battle -- well, who know Jodi. They`re going to bat it will out themselves. There they are. It`s our buddy Abe and our buddy Gus. They`ve got some differences of opinion about how things went down.
We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
ARIAS: It was a little hot, but it was still somewhat -- it was cooler in the shade. He was drinking chai tea. I was drinking a latte, an iced latte.
For Thanksgiving I think it was on the 22nd that year. Well, the 26th would have been a Sunday. So whatever the previous Thursday would --
And at one point we were getting -- they were getting in line for the zipper. I didn`t want to get on the zipper.
I remember, I thought I was driving west because I remember the sun was in my eyes for a while.
The parking lot was packed. It was dark, though. Obviously, the parking light lots were on. As I was walking toward my car, there were some skaters. The license plate had bends all over it, and the car that I just rented had bugs all over the grill except where the license plate was.
He had installed a doggie door. So the sliding glass door butts up to it but it doesn`t lock.
There`s a lot of that day that I don`t remember. There are a lot of gaps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember stabbing Travis Alexander?
ARIAS: I have no memory of stabbing him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember dragging him across the floor?
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Can a person`s memory really be as fickle as Jodi`s seemed to be? Exquisitely detailed memory in some areas and not so much in others.
Back with my co-host Laura Baron.
And I want to go to Beth with Laura`s questions before the break, and that was does the jury see the family`s emotions and do they have any read on that?
KARAS: Well, they can if they turn to the right and look at the public gallery. That did happen once when there were some audible sounds from the front row there, from the family and others in the public gallery because the prosecutor had flashed a photo of the gaping wound in Travis Alexander`s throat. That was to -- not to Jodi Arias. It was to another witness.
And they did turn and see that emotion. But during Jodi Arias` testimony I haven`t seen jurors look back at the front row. And the judge did admonish Alexander`s family not to make faces because they were rolling their eyes and smirking at times.
Jodi Arias did have a stare-out with them one of the first days she was on the stand but after that she looks at the jury or she looks at her lawyer and she doesn`t seem to be looking at that front row directly across from her.
PINSKY: In addition to Beth and Laura I`ve got criminologist Casey Jordan. And now, I`ve got family law attorney Areva Martin.
So, Casey, does Jodi`s massive memory breakdowns, let`s call them, they`re these sort of blackouts or brownouts or red-outs. I always say -- I calmly hear trauma-surviving patients who get involved in re-traumatizing situations will have gaps.
I`ve in fact seen videos of my patients that law enforcement has of them doing things extremely uncharacteristic and frankly often embarrassing, but nonsensical. They`re sensical. They can do something like putting a camera in the washing machine. But that`s somebody with a previous history of trauma and dissociation.
Do you buy it with Jodi, Casey?
JORDAN: Not only do I not buy it, I don`t think anybody buys it.
JORDAN: I mean, there are different kinds of amnesia. There are different kinds of blackout memory. But it`s rare you that get an entire gap. Usually, if a CPU fails, as I`m going to refer to your memory, you know, if you are -- you have such a trauma, and usually this kind of memory loss is caused by an organic or literally a physically traumatic injury, like brain surgery or a blow to the head.
None of that happened. It`s extremely rare that you have a shock that would account for an entire blackout. This could happen with drugs or alcohol but not just a shock.
Usually, you have kind of an out of body experience. Everything seems to slow down. You have memories that are very bold and memories that are very smoky or smudgy. But you don`t have an entire hours of time that are missing from your brain that you never, ever, ever recover.
And I think everyone sees this for exactly what it is. It`s convenient memory loss. In science, we call it lying.
PINSKY: Thank you.
BARON: That`s a technical word.
PINSKY: That`s a term I`m not sure I`m familiar with, particularly during this trial. And I should re sort of phrase or re-categorize what I was saying. And, of course, my patients when they have blackouts are intoxicated also, which, of course, contributes to the memory issues. And there are severe trauma survivors who have previous histories of various kinds of blackout and red-out and rages out.
Areva, was he putting Jodi on the stand the right thing to do?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I think the defense had to put Jodi on the stand because this is about her life and whether she`s going to get the death penalty or not. So I don`t think they had a choice.
But they took a calculated risk by going through six, seven days of this methodical testimony with her recounting every detail of her life. I mean, she has a memory back to things that happened to her when she was 10 years old.
And now to, all of a sudden, have this sudden lapse of memory when it comes to the important details of the killing I think cause her to be just an incredible witness. And the prosecution is going to have a field day with this lapse of memory because we`re also going to hear all of these details about other stories that she told, i.e., that there were intruders in the apartment, that she was never there, that she didn`t commit this crime, later to turn around and say she actually did, you know, kill Travis.
So there`s going to be a lot she has to answer to. And I think the most exciting part of this trial is really going to happen when the prosecution gets its opportunity to cross-examine Jodi. So many unanswered questions and so many things I think that are going to reveal that she`s just not a credible witness.
PINSKY: Beth, let me ask you this. This notion of starting with "I killed him" and then going through exquisite detail and dragging us through barely tolerable, you know, excruciating details about their sex life and stuff, how did that strategy feel in the courtroom?
KARAS: Well, you know, no one had ever heard her admit to killing him. Because she --
PINSKY: Isn`t that the first thing she did?
KARAS: Well, yes, yes.
PINSKY: She said I killed him, I killed him, it was complicated.
KARAS: Right. That was the first time anyone heard that from her. She had all these other stories. We knew she was asserting self-defense.
And when you do that, you have to admit to the act itself, but you`re basically saying, look, it`s not criminal, I was justified in doing it. So I think the defense found it important for her to say up front, look, I killed him, I did it because I need to defend myself, I had no choice, and now let me tell you why. And so she went through her life for seven days.
PINSKY: Oh, boy, did she. Let me -- she sure did.
Let me take a quick question before we go to break before Jana. I think she`s in North Carolina. Are you there? Janet?
JANET, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Thanks for taking my call. I tell you, this girl, she is the queen. She needs to get her Oscar on Sunday. OK?
PINSKY: Cinematic. Here we go again. Go ahead.
JANET: I don`t think she`s that complex. I think she`s a very easy read, lie after lie, story after story. She gets caught up in her own stories, and she can`t remember exactly how to get out of it. So she stops herself in mid-thought and thinks, OK, wait a minute, how will I derail here? You know, the Oscars --
PINSKY: Right. Dissembling, obfuscating, crocodile tears.
Next up, a pathologist says Jodi can`t have it both ways when it comes to recalling the killing, and he`s going to show us how it went down in his mind. And I have a lot of questions about that.
And later, we`ve got a guy who took Jodi back to the scene of the death, the death house. I`m going to ask this man what Jodi hoped to find there, how she behaved. That after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I remember I was in the bathroom, and I remember dropping the knife, and it clanged to the tile. It made a big noise. And I just remember screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember where he was when you were screaming?
ARIAS: I think he was next to me on the floor. I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember stabbing Travis Alexander?
ARIAS: I have no memory of stabbing him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: No memory. That was Jodi Arias testifying about having shot Travis Alexander. But couldn`t quite remember stabbing him.
Back with my co-host this week, Laura Baron. We`re discussing a killing. Remember, this may not be suitable for younger viewers. We don`t have all that explicit sexual material that she was dragging us through all week.
Board certified surgeon and pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd.
Dr. Lloyd, I`ve got a bunch of questions. First of all, about being shot in the head. It appears he was shot through and through in the brain.
My understanding is that there was no sort of burn, it was not close range as she assumed, the skin didn`t look like it had been hit at close range, and there was no hemorrhage, no subdural, epidural or intraparenchymal --
BARON: What is that?
PINSKY: Bleeding in the brain.
PINSKY: Meaning the heart may not have been pumping at that point, although again, the body was decomposed. And she said the guy continued the attack.
Let me just ask you simply, I guess, is there anyway in your mind that having been shot the way we know he was shot that he could have continued to attack her?
DR. BILL LLOYD, PERFORMED 500+ AUTOPSIES: In theory, Drew, if that was the only injury that he sustained and he was able to maintain consciousness, then it`s conceivable that he could have made his way down the hallway and chased after Jodi. But --
PINSKY: OK. I`m going to stop you. Before the but. Hold on, before the but --
LLOYD: There`s one little problem --
BARON: Do you always carry that knife around?
PINSKY: I just want to be clear. Because I think it`s possible, too. Before -- if he hits no vascular structures and there`s no brain swelling, people can have consciousness for a minute or so after something like that.
BARON: But can he be like booking after her like a linebacker? Because that`s what she`s saying he did.
PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd?
LLOYD: All right. As a trauma surgeon I`ve had experience with many people who have been shot, in liquor stores, law enforcement, the military. It`s remarkable what individuals can do so long as they can maintain consciousness. At the autopsy, and I agree with the reports from the medical examiner, even after the decomposition, there was not significant evidence of hemorrhage, indicating he had to have been bleeding long before he was shot in the head.
PINSKY: So he had to have been bleeding from elsewhere and maybe even no pulse or certainly no blood pressure long before that.
So bring your instrument back up, Mr. Surgeon, Dr. Surgeon. What do you -- wow, oh my goodness.
BARON: So disturbing. Massively disturbing.
PINSKY: One of the things that occurred to me today is your theory about the stem to stern cut across the neck with that little device you`ve got there starting to really look like it was a postmortem cut of some sort of bizarre -- I mean, what do you imagine motivated her to do that?
BARON: What are you saying? She sliced him after he was already dead?
LLOYD: Yes. So, it`s an act of intense range. As we know, the 27 stabs to the back, and then her lucky shot to the chest. The tip of this knife was able to avoid the sternum, the breastplate, and get in between two ribs and then push deep enough, deep enough to cross through the chest, the lungs and the heart, to sever the vena cava, which is right up near the spine. So this knife had to go pretty far deep in. Massive bleeding from that.
PINSKY: We are back, ladies and gentlemen -- hold on, Dr. Lloyd. We`re back to the cinematic references again.
Today, we`re getting into "Gangs of New York." Remember the butcher. This is exactly his move.
BARON: Yes. She went nuts on him.
LLOYD: Regarding that cut to the neck, regarding the cut to the neck. A conscious person would not let a smaller individual, even with a knife, get away with that. So he had left the bathroom. He`s bleeding furiously. He makes his way down the hallway, where he collapses. And then she finished the job by making that cut stem to stern and slashing his neck.
But that`s not enough. Now she drags the body back to the bathroom and out comes the gun for that final blow to the head that exits the cheek. I`m hoping the movie ends up like "Unforgiven."
PINSKY: Very interesting. Well, we will see.
Next up -- thank you, Dr. Lloyd. Stay with us.
PINSKY: Yes, Laura, oy is right.
What did Jodi want on the way to Travis`s memorial service? We have a gentleman who was in the car with her. He had her creepy request. He`s going to tell us what it was, what she said, how it went down.
And later, my jury in the courtroom, and the peanut gallery there. There they are. Any of those folks buying memory meltdown? And what do they say about the reactions of the actual jury -- after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: There was a memorial service that was church in Mesa. I thought that if I didn`t show up, it would look suspicious because Travis and I were close and a lot of people knew that. The subject of my funeral came up one time. He was going to give the eulogy or something if I ever died. He would have come to mine. And, even if it was in Antarctica.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Back with this week`s co-host, Laura Baron. Joining us, Aaron Dewey, Travis Alexander`s colleague and a former roommate. He drove with Jodi to that memorial service she`s referencing there. So, Aaron, thank you for joining us again.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: Yes. Sorry.
PINSKY: On the way, she asked you to do something. What was that? And what happened?
AARON DEWEY, TRAVIS`S ROOMMATE: I`d picked Jodi up from the home where she was staying while she was here in town. And we had plenty of extra time before the memorial service was going to start. So, she asked me if we could take a quick detour and go by Travis`s house to see the home before we went over to the memorial service.
BARON: It`s so disturbing. And what was she like when she was in the car with you?
DEWEY: Most of the time, we were talking about our memories of Travis, our interactions, the good times that we`d had in the home. So, it was nothing -- nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing unusual for me at the time. But looking back, knowing what she`s done now, it`s pretty creepy that less than two weeks after the killing, she actually wanted to return to the scene of the crime.
PINSKY: Yes. Now, Casey, I`m glad you`re here. That`s my question. I really don`t know much about that topic, of criminals, particularly killers returning to the scene of the crime. Is that a myth or does that really happen? Is that what she was doing here, do you think?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Oh, well, it really does happen. And there`s three main reasons that`s happens in various scenarios. The number one is wallowing. We see that with serial killers who go back and emotionally and psychologically relive the thrill or the lust that they experienced. And they`re playing the reel of the killing through their head.
I don`t think that applies to Jodi at all. Sometimes, we see, number two, people return to a scene to actually muddy up the crime scene or research it or try to destroy evidence. That isn`t this case either. It`s number three, which is what we call the cover-up. It`s the disingenuous acting like they`re going back to the scene of the crime because a guilty person would never do that.
So, she must be innocent. And I think that`s why she asked for that diversion, to go by the house, to again throw him off, somebody who knew Travis very well, from any idea that Jodi could have been involved.
PINSKY: Right. She didn`t want to be that kind of person, as she kept saying on the witness stand. She wanted to paint a different picture, which I think that`s how she -- give people a different picture. I think those are the words she used. Something like that, which is a very strange way to describe how an adult presents themselves to another adult in terms of their genuine self.
BARON: And I love how she -- I love how she tried to keep her word by going to the memorial and saying Travis would go to mine, I would go to his. Like, how about keeping the word we`re not going to murder each other?
PINSKY: There`s that. There`s that. I hope they didn`t actually have that conversation. Aaron, do you think Jodi should be sentenced to death? What`s your thought?
DEWEY: I do. I mean, I think there`s no question that there is significant amount of premeditation here. There`s no question that the crime that she committed was grievous and heinous. It has everything that warrants a death penalty conviction.
BARON: And would you feel any sense of -- of not rejoice but like that she got her due if she died? I mean, would it equal out the stakes for you at all?
DEWEY: You know, I`ve already made my peace with Travis and with Jodi and how everything happened there. You know, all of us want to see justice for Travis. But at the end of the day, you take her life, it`s not going to bring his back. And nothing`s going to change that.
PINSKY: And yet, you think she should face the death penalty. Areva, do you think she`s going to get the death penalty or have they thrown up enough doubt and caused, I guess, women lately have been sort of sympathetic to poor Jodi. The men are all creeped up mostly. What do you say, Areva?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Well, Dr. Drew, remember Casey Anthony. You know, so many similarities in these two trials. Everyone just knew that she was going to be, you know, convicted for the murder of her child, but the prosecution in that case was so angry, and, you know, the way the trial was conducted people did have a lot of sympathy for her.
So, I think it has a lot to do with what that cross-examination looks like next week. Is the prosecutor --
PINSKY: Areva, do you have sympathy for Jodi?
MARTIN: -- methodically go through that evidence.
PINSKY: Areva, do you have some sympathy for Jodi?
MARTIN: I feel like the friend of Travis. Killing Jodi is not going to bring Travis back. But also, as an officer of the court, if there`s premeditation, the law in the state of Arizona says the death penalty is the appropriate punishment for her crime. So, if the prosecution can prove its case, then death penalty it is.
PINSKY: All right. Got to take a quick call. Cynthia in Alabama. Cynthia, what do you got?
CYNTHIA, ALABAMA: I won`t cuss, but I`m getting --
PINSKY: OK. Go right ahead. Without cussing. Give me what you got.
CYNTHIA: Dr. Drew. Hey, Dr. Drew. This is Cynthia in Alabama, and I`m so glad to be with you. This is the second time I`ve been on your show. You have got to give me a minute here because I am really disturbed about this.
PINSKY: I`ve got 25 seconds. Go.
CYNTHIA: I know you`ve got 25 seconds, and I seem like I`ve got a lifetime here. This girl -- this thing -- I`m not even going to call her a girl -- is making a mockery of the system, the people that are watching, the jurors, and I hope, I hope to God the jurors can see through her, what the criminal defense attorneys are doing to try to make her look little and small, and think about the victim here.
BARON: I agree.
CYNTHIA: And if you look into her eyes, the eyes are the window to the soul. Look into her eyes. She is deviant. Look at the window -- the eyes to his soul. He looks like he`s a very caring --
BARON: Yes. It`s almost as if she had us, didn`t she, Cynthia? She was getting us. She was getting all of the sympathy from women, and I think she`s just lost it.
CYNTHIA: Please let me say this. I`ve got to.
PINSKY: Last thing. Go. Go. Last thing.
CYNTHIA: I just hope she doesn`t walk free like Casey Anthony did and the people in the jurors say oh, my God, I wish I hadn`t let her go, oh, my God, let`s give her the death penalty. Let`s get this crazy psychopathic killer off the street because she`s making a mockery out of the whole thing. And the sexual thing should have never even come into play. That - -
PINSKY: Cynthia, I hope you sleep -- Cynthia? Hang on. Cynthia, thank you, my dear, my tender, gentle Cynthia.
BARON: Warm milk.
PINSKY: I hope you do sleep better tonight after the outburst. I think a lot of people feel just like you do. Aaron Dewey, Dr. Bill Lloyd, thank you guys.
Next, it is a he said/she said between two men who knew Jodi, know Jodi. And later, does my jury believe she had a memory lapse? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I just couldn`t believe what had happened. And I couldn`t take anything back what had just happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes or no? Did you believe he was alive?
ARIAS: I didn`t know, but I didn`t think he was because I didn`t -- no, I thought he was not alive. I wish that it was just a nightmare that I could wake up from.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you still love him? Do you still love him now?
ARIAS: Yes, it`s a different love, but yes, I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Hmm, Laura. It`s a different love. I guess, the kind of love where you take out a knife --
BARON: Slice somebody`s throat.
PINSKY: Cut somebody`s head off. That kind of love.
BARON: The really passionate knife-yielding love. It`s just -- Drew, this is so angering to me because I was, you know that I was getting on her side. I was having some sympathy.
PINSKY: What do you think -- what switched you? I thought, too, today the women kind of turned a little bit. Is it the fact that there was no satisfaction about the events leading right around the death?
BARON: Well, one, it`s like as you`re looking at all of the sex, as you`re hearing all the sex talk, you`re kind of thinking, this is going to lead to something, you`re going to get some payoff. It`s not going to be just this raunchy, naughty thing.
BARON: And it turns out that she`s like, yes, we spanked, but now, I forgot after I --
PINSKY: This is again insight into the mind of women. Men take note.
BARON: But truly, it`s really bothersome.
PINSKY: I know. I know. And I`m making light of something very, very serious. It`s almost no other way to deal with this a little bit of humor because it`s disgusting.
BARON: Of course.
PINSKY: Back of course is Laura, Laura Baron, my co-host for this week. We are getting now into a conversation that we had with Gus. Gus on the witness stand a few weeks ago, if you remember, he was very sort of troublesome on the stand, and Abe Abdelhadi, who dated Jodi. Abe, you`ve been an object of discussion in the courtroom all week long. What did you think of today`s testimony?
VOICE OF ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: I thought it was fascinating to say the least. I could pick some other words, but this is not HBO. I was amazed that she had remembered pretty much every detail from the ninth grade and completely blanked out and absolutely defied the laws of physics when she was explaining the whole day that that happened.
And I thought to myself, gosh, if he got shot in the head and he still charged her, that`s some tiger blood for you, that`s real Charlie Sheen type stuff right there. So, I was just amazed by listening to this. And that she was able to try -- she was able to do it with a straight face. And I just didn`t buy it.
PINSKY: Now, Jodi says she killed Travis with his own gun. Again, this is back to the "Chicago" musical where they reach for the gun. The man who provided some video to HLN that we`re about to watch that video told HLN`s Jane Velez-Mitchell that if Travis had his own gun, he would not have borrowed -- he would not have had to borrow a gun when they went out shooting.
You`re actually looking at him with a friend`s gun shooting. It appears that he might have been somewhat of a gun enthusiast. But he -- according to his friend, the friend doubted whether he actually had his own gun. Abe, do you know whether he was a -- was this just a one-off event that Travis was doing or is he a guy that would likely have a gun?
ABDELHADI: You know, I think -- I think he would probably have a gun. I couldn`t speak to that intelligently. He may or may not have had a gun. I mean, you know, people you think would wouldn`t, and some that you think would not absolutely do. I think the more important --
BARON: You know --
ABDELHADI: Really quick, just let me finish this one thought is the fact that when you guys had --
PINSKY: Abe, your phone cut out. Just when you were going to finish that one thought. So, Laura, we`re going to go to some calls.
PINSKY: Put the call up here. We`re watching there footage of Travis Alexander, himself, shooting guns with his buddies, having borrowed a gun from somebody else. I`m going to go out to Wanda in Florida. Wanda, you wanted to say something to us? Go right ahead.
WANDA, FLORIDA: Good evening, Dr. Drew. Thank you for taking my call. First, let me extend my condolences to the Travis and his friends and I hope they get justice.
PINSKY: Am I going to get --
WANDA: I notice Travis`s closet. That it`s a typical businessman`s closet. Shirts hung the proper way, suits, pants, and shoes. Now, is it possible that Jodi took that gun there prior to the killing and then made up the story about cleaning his closet and then said something to that effect to their grandfathers who reported the theft?
PINSKY: Abe, unfortunately, you broke up in my ear. We had some sort of weird technical computer glitch. Could you repeat that? See, I can`t hear him again. But Laura, I can hear you, right?
PINSKY: So, it`s on us for the moment.
BARON: Is it just that she`s a complete narcissist?
PINSKY: No, this is probably more than narcissism. These are what we call narcissistic clusters where people had, you know, maybe injuries in childhood that result in sort of a narcissistic core to their person, but this is far, far more than just that. I mean, narcissists can be very -- many people today have sort of narcissistic issues.
BARON: It just seems so much about her. And then when she says that she didn`t want to admit it until her family said that they would accept her for anything.
PINSKY: Well, that -- you know, you hear -- you actually hear him, Travis, in the text messages calling him a sociopath -- calling her a sociopath.
PINSKY: And that`s more the kind of spectrum she appears now where nothing really matters except her and what she needs from other people --
PINSKY: -- to make her happy and satisfied.
Next up, I have my own jury, so to speak. They weigh in on Jodi`s bombshell testimony today. Abe, thank you for joining us. I`m sorry we had that technical problem. We were going to pitch you against Gus because he said some stuff that, well, I know you would dispute. Maybe we`ll get you back for that later or tomorrow. Be right back.
PINSKY: It`s time for my jury. Back with my co-host this week, Laura Baron. Joining us, my jurors, Katie Wick and indeed -- Katie, happy birthday, by the way.
BARON: Oh, happy birthday.
PINSKY: And Carmen Romero.
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Thank you.
PINSKY: So, let`s get right into it, ladies. Katie, are you buying it? She gets all the exclusive detail out. Reach for the gun and nothing. Got nothing after that. Sorry.
WICK: No. No. And she just forgot -- and you know, your caller a few minutes ago, Dr. Drew, said she should win an Oscar. I agree, but she should win an Oscar for best worst actress. This was horrific today, her testimony, or lack thereof, of the actual murder. And once again, it`s all about Jodi.
She cried more during the sex tape than she cried explaining the actual murder. It was so -- and I was furious inside because I don`t believe one thing that she said.
PINSKY: Carmen, how about you? Do you agree with Katie or do you have a different take?
CARMEN ROMERO, DR. DREW "JUROR": No. No, I agree with her completely. I think it was a letdown. No, I didn`t believe anything she had to say. And I expected more. Nothing. She can`t remember anything.
PINSKY: Katie --
WICK: Dr. Drew, it`s kind of like going up a roller coaster and --
WICK: I was just going to say it`s kind of like going up a roller coaster and there`s no drop. It just goes flat.
ROMERO: That`s how I felt, too.
PINSKY: It`s interesting that it seems like it disappoints women more than men, strangely enough. Men are like, ah, come on now, don`t be -- why did you drag me through that? We feel sort of not let down but sort of frustrated and angry. Women are like this is really -- yes, you guys are really resenting it. I agree.
BARON: Yes. I mean, we fell for it. I mean -- and Katie, we have talked about this, right, where we kind of climbed in the sympathy hole. And now, we`re like, are you kidding me? We know better than this. Yes. I was angry by today`s testimony, too.
WICK: Yes, because last week, it was every single detail. I mean, what she got at Starbucks and now it`s nothing. So, it`s ridiculous. And I think the jury is thinking wow, we waited seven days for this?
PINSKY: And Carmen, do you have any sense of how the jury was reacting, the actual jury?
ROMERO: They were quite disappointed. They were at the edge of their seats, and they got nothing.
WICK: And --
ROMERO: Go ahead.
WICK: Dr. Drew, I just wanted to say something. At the end of the day, I was talking to Carmen about this. We had seven days of testimony about sex. At the end of the day, what did that have to do with the murder? Nothing.
PINSKY: Well, that`s the part -- I`m actually sort of offended by that.
BARON: I am, too.
PINSKY: Yes. We have like -- you know, this went out on national television for goodness sakes. Abe, let`s get you back into this. I do have you, do I not? Let me check my technical issues here. Abe, are you there?
ABDELHADI: Can you hear me?
PINSKY: OK. Good. We got you now. Sorry, we sort of lost track of you there for a second. So, we`ve got people, women, particularly, seem particularly let down by this testimony. How do you think men generally -- the creep factor`s been way up for the last three days for men, I think, Abe. Do you think that that has changed at all?
ABDELHADI: No, I don`t -- I personally don`t see any male or female being let down by this in any way. This was an explanation that didn`t make any sense. My eight-year-old nephews had better explanations when cookies go missing. She didn`t make any sense at all. She wasn`t credible.
It was really frustrating to watch her go through every single detail, as I said earlier, and then completely blank out on this and then just -- the non-sense about him charging after he`d been shot. There`s only one bullet hole in the head, yet that -- he was able to charge and chase her through the house after she shot him. I`m like, it was amazing.
BARON: Drew, I`m curious. What did you think about that whole memory loss thing? I mean, could that be anything about PTSD?
PINSKY: Well, as Casey and I were saying earlier, there is such a thing as that, but it just -- it would seem too convenient. There was no previous history of these kinds of things. It`s not the usual circumstance where we see these absences like this. It`s just too pat. It`s too just so.
Abe, it reminds me of when you talked to her after the killing, when you said you had that feeling that she had done it. Remember that conversation you had with her and you were just trying to get something out of her?
ABDELHADI: Yes. Absolutely.
PINSKY: It feels that kind of slippery, you know, nonsense that you described in that phone conversation. Does that remind you of that same thing?
ABDELHADI: The same tone that she was at least a little bit -- unfortunately, you know, I`m not a professional investigator. I was leading her. I was like hey, did he ever have these parties at his house or did he ever do these things? She says like no, but once in a while, he got these USC football parties, and you know, some people could have come in through that way and met him that way.
And oh, my God, this is terrible, and then she starts crying. And, I`m on the phone, so, I can`t really, you know, see physically if she`s really, you know, full of it or not. And then, I feel like the jerk -- because she`s crying, so I`m just being paranoid.
PINSKY: Katie -- Abe, I`ve got to wrap you up. Katie, last question. The tears on the stand today. Did they feel empty or was there anything there at all?
WICK: They were completely empty except for Jodi at the end. It was all about Jodi. And they were -- I believe the tears, that they were tears for Jodi when she was talking about --
PINSKY: Tears for Jodi.
WICK: -- how she started to confess. It was all about Jodi, still.
PINSKY: It`s why the lies, why this, why it didn`t work. And there you go --
BARON: And the embarrassment of what she did.
PINSKY: Yes. Laura, that`s when you talk about that sociopathic, narcissistic quality. There it is. There it is in bold relief.
Katie, thank you. Carmen, thank you. Abe as well. All my guests tonight, of course.
WICK: Thank you.
ROMERO: Thank you.
PINSKY: Thank you to Casey and Areva who left us as well.
Next up, I want to welcome back Robin Roberts to television. Stay with us.
BARON: Oh, that`s so great.
PINSKY: Robin Roberts returned to "Good Morning America" today, this, after an absence of six months. I`ve known Robin. Listen, anyone who`s met this woman will tell you the same thing I will. She is one of the most lovely, friendly, delightful -- there`s just no, nothing you can say that even gets near how lovely she is.
BARON: Oh, good, because she seems it.
PINSKY: She seems it. And many times, it`s not always that way. She had a bone marrow transplantation for an illness called myelodysplasia. Basically, when she had her breast cancer treatment, her bone marrow took a hit from that, and it causes kind of a disorganized growth of the red cells, platelets, white cells, and things can actually completely shut down.
The only treatment is for a bone marrow transplantation. And robin, as is often the case in medicine, we can really treat one thing, and once we think we get it, we end (ph) up causing another.
BARON: And what I love about Robin, Drew, is that she gives other women that are going through the struggle a very public inspiration.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s right. And she looks great. She is great. Laura, thank you for joining us. Her prognosis is excellent. Hopefully, we`ll see you tomorrow. We`re going to do a special on the cross- examination. That`s our hope in any event.
And a reminder -- and by the way, thank you for my guests and callers today -- "Nancy Grace" starts right now.