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Memory of Murder?
Aired February 25, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias on the stand. Drilling down on Jodi, the prosecutor hammers away at her.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You took some razor, right?
JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: Yes.
MARTINEZ: You stopped because it stung. Can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest?
PINSKY: Her bombshells.
ARIAS: I have no memory of stabbing him.
PINSKY: And all that baby talk.
ARIAS: You`re such a good boy. You`re bad.
It made me feel yucky.
PINSKY: Did Jodi cave, and what is the jury doing with all of this?
One of Jodi`s friends is here to defend her.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome to our program.
Laura Baron is back as my co-host for the week.
Joining us as well, attorney Mike Eiglarsh. He`s from SpeaktoMark.com. And via Skype, criminologist and lawyer Casey Jordan.
But, first, it is day two -- hi, guys -- day two of the Jodi Arias. She`s on her -- I beg your pardon, day two of aggressive cross examination, and the prosecutor came out swinging.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Other than you, who would be sure about your statement?
MARTINEZ: Well, God is not here. We can`t subpoena him, right?
ARIAS: I don`t think so.
MARTINEZ: Do you have problems with your memory?
MARTINEZ: You didn`t seem to have any problems on direct examination when you were talking to us about all the sexual exploits with Mr. Alexander, did you?
You took some razor, right?
MARTINEZ: And that you cut yourself, right?
ARIAS: It was a nick.
MARTINEZ: It was a nick. And because it stung so much that you said, no, this is not the way for me to go, right?
Can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest? That must have hurt, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, argumentative.
MARTINEZ: You did kiss him, though, right?
ARIAS: Yes, I did.
MARTINEZ: Knowing that Mr. Alexander was dead, right?
ARIAS: I guess so.
MARTINEZ: Ma`am, what is hard to explain about a person breathing and not breathing? What is so difficult -- why is that such a difficult concept for you?
ARIAS: Because I never killed anyone before.
MARTINEZ: OK. So, because you never killed anyone before, then you`re having a problem deciding whether or not the person is dead. If you hadn`t killed anybody before and you didn`t know if he was dead, then why did you just leave him to die? To continue this litany of lies, it isn`t restricted to Utah. You also lied to people in Arizona, didn`t you?
ARIAS: Yes. Everyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Straight out to Beth Karas, correspondent for "In Session."
Beth, very dramatic prosecution today. What was it like when the prosecutor asked her to imagine what Travis was felt when she stabbed him in the chest?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, it had the defense up on their feet immediately and there was a sidebar. He couldn`t go any further with that question and the objection was sustained, meaning, you know, the answer was basically stricken.
But she was crying on the stand during that sidebar. I mean, the tears started to stream down her face. She sat there very passively otherwise. But it was -- you know, it was a thought that I had when she said, on direct examination, it stung her when she tried to cut her wrist right after her arrest when she was still in northern California. And I thought, wow, what was it like for Travis when you slit his throat and stabbed him all those times and slashed him?
Anyway, the prosecutor asked that question. Actually, she didn`t answer it. She was just stunned. And everybody was just like, what?
PINSKY: I thought it was interesting. Another point was when she -- they played that clip from "48 Hours." That was so -- it got a little bizarre for me then. They played that clip and there was all that questioning about her believing that the end of the world was coming? Can you recap that for us?
KARAS: Yes. Well, first of all, there were three different times, at least, that "48 Hours" interview clips were played, just to emphasize certain lies, because she said one thing on the record, she told "48 Hours" different thing, for example.
And then she had a beautiful smile, in her booking photo, it was beautiful photo when she was arrested, and she explained to "48 Hours" why she was smiling. Because she thought, what if Travis were in my position? I think he would be all smiles. And then she said, I knew it would be all over the Internet, so why not smile? And I know I`m innocent. So that explanation came out.
But the end of the world apart of the examination actually came from her direct examination and it was a boyfriend from a long time before, and she just got wrapped up in some religious belief that the end of the world was coming.
PINSKY: She gets wrapped up in all kinds of stuff. But go ahead, Beth, finish.
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: Beth, I was just going to ask you, on the other side of her smiling, you mentioned her crying in court. How do you think that played to the jury? Because we are talking to somebody that has claimed abuse.
KARAS: Has claimed abuse or has experienced abuse?
PINSKY: Claimed it.
BARON: Claimed abuse.
KARAS: The state doesn`t believe -- yes, you know, I don`t know if she`s ever been abused, but she claims that she has been. You know, jurors, I don`t how it`s flying with the jury. There is one juror in the front row who sits closest to her a woman who just doesn`t really look at her much anymore. Just kind of look straight ahead, to look at Jodi Arias, she`d have to look a little bit to her left.
Jurors are still watching her. Her -- she`s not sobbing. She doesn`t have her head down where she`s like losing control, but these are just, you know, tears that she`ll wipe her eyes now and then, or her nose. But she`s not too emotional.
That`s going to come tomorrow or the next day when she`s confronted with the photos of her handiwork that she claimed she didn`t -- she doesn`t remember doing. How can she claim self-defense when she can`t say what was happening to her, is really the argument.
PINSKY: I`m going to ask Casey if she learned anything in just a second, but, Mark, I`m going to you first and ask what you thought about the strategy, first of all, of the cross examination. And, secondly, this sort of obstinence that she has, constantly looking to the jury all the time -- is that just a highly trained, you know, highly coached witness there on the stand, or is this something about her? And what do you think about their strategy?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: OK. First, regarding her -- without question, 100 percent for years she has been waiting for this moment, and she knows to maximize her effectiveness, she will do what I instruct my clients to do. If you could cheat toward the jurors and look at them directly, you do it. So, she`s winning points there.
Now, it doesn`t mean her answers are resonating. Her story is garbage. She`s lying, and I don`t think any of them are buying it, but she`s maximizing her effectives by doing that.
Now, the prosecutor, again, I want to say what I mean and not say I mean -- I don`t see his game plan. He`s wandering up there with no notes. I thought over the weekend somebody who have given him advice like, you know, it might be more effective if you actually had subject matters and you went through and asked leading questions, just get yes or no answers so you don`t give her the opportunity to explain or to look sympathetic.
So, I think he`s doing well in that she`s looking bad, but I`m not giving him the credit for that.
PINSKY: And, Casey, what did you learn today? And, by the way, women are starting to get sympathetic under this withering cross-examination.
PINSKY: Does that surprise you? And did you learn anything today, Casey?
JASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Drew, I have to tell you, I`m having a few audio problems, but I think you asked me what women are thinking, whether they`re getting sympathetic to Jodi.
The bottom line is Martinez, it`s hammer time. And I don`t think anyone feels sympathy for Jodi simply because she is being laid out as the liar that she is. He`s doing it methodically.
She has to admit to everything she has said, that is completely false.
The bottom line is she looks cagey, dishonest, and nobody can believe anything she says, including her claims of self-defense.
PINSKY: Mark, before I go, why -- do you ever advise someone to go, look, I wasn`t following anybody`s direction, I was lying all over the place, I was scared to death and now I`m telling you the truth.
Does that ever work, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Well, first of all, I don`t instruct my clients on what to say. I always tell them --
PINSKY: Of course, you don`t. Forget it, right. To help them prove mirror case as opposed to being unproven, as I`ve learned, there`s no justice.
EIGLARSH: If you`re asking whether I tell my clients that honesty is the way to go and then you tell what happened, the answer is yes. Jurors know when people are just being intellectually dishonest with the. So they know she is not being truthful. She has lied so many times that none of this really I think is resonating.
But I still wish that the prosecutor was more prepared and more organized and very, very focused.
PINSKY: All right, guys. Thanks, Beth.
Next up, I`ve got my own human lie detector. She has worked with the FBI, the CIA, and she`s back to share her take on today`s testimony.
And later, we`ve got a friend of Jodi who says the story of abuse may actually be true. And she`s got some details particularly about that old boyfriend, the vampire dude. He`s back again.
We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: She received these and you included this message telling her you were sorry for what had happened, right?
MARTINEZ: That was for your benefit, wasn`t it?
MARTINEZ: You still were sending this out, right?
ARIAS: Sending what? The flowers?
MARTINEZ: The irises. The flowers.
MARTINEZ: That`s what we`re talking about. And you knew she was an older woman, didn`t you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: During today`s cross-examination, Jodi Arias admits sending sympathy flowers to Travis Alexander`s grandmother --
BARON: It`s so outrageous.
PINSKY: It`s outrageous. And, by the way, apparently, by the way, it was Irises because she and he had discussed naming their daughter Iris should they have one.
BARON: And a sympathy note. What would it say? Sorry for killing the kid that you raised?
PINSKY: Yes. Sorry for slicing your grandson`s head off.
I`m back with my co-host Laura Baron.
Joining us, lie expert and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me", Janine Driver.
Janine, killer sends sympathy flowers to the dead boyfriend`s grandmother. That doesn`t -- oh, I got -- I`ve got Casey, I see. There`s Janine.
Is that typical criminal behavior?
JANINE DRIVER, LIE EXPERT: No, Dr. Drew, and, Laura, I`ve got to tell you, I talk about it in my book "You Can`t Lie to Me." There`s three types of liars. I call them taking care of business.
You want to take care of business? They`re the TCB, teeter-totters, convince not conveyers, and backsliders.
Now, teeter-totter, this is the person who teeters tooters like a seesaw. They say their confident but they start biting their nails or playing with their cuticles.
Convince not conveyers. These are the Jodi Ariases, Dr. Drew. These are people that oversell.
DRIVER: And then backsliders are the Jerry Sanduskys, where they stutter and they stammer. These are the type of people we typically think of as liars.
Now, let`s talk about, once again, Jodi arias, we talked about it last week, Dr. Drew. She`s a convince, not conveyer. We see it again with the flowers.
What is she doing? She`s sending flowers. Most murderers do not send flowers to the family members of the person they --
PINSKY: Hold on, Janine. Slow down. I`m confused.
I mean, somebody -- it`s not typical to send a present to the family members of the people you just -- particularly when you slaughtered? You butchered them.
BARON: And perhaps chocolate or anything.
DRIVER: Hey, listen, Dr. Drew, you get fired from a job, do you send your boss`s mother flowers after you get fired from a job? We don`t even do that when you get fired let alone if you slaughter someone. Unacceptable.
PINSKY: Casey, I`m going to ask Casey, do you have any sense of what might have gone through her head? I know you have some audio problems. Could you hear me on that?
JORDAN: Yes, much better now, Drew.
Yes. It`s in criminology, we talked about red herrings and counter indicators. It`s the same concept. You take something and you over-think it. You double guess, you triple guess.
You are thinking, what could I do to cast any suspicion away from me as far as possible. I mean, what kind of murderer would send irises to the victim`s grandmother? Nobody would ever do that. Nobody would ever suspect.
She thinks the more she does this, she doesn`t see it as overcompensation. She thinks it`s normal behavior, but again, she`s never been in this situation to know what normal is.
Look backwards and you see these as red herrings, literally things she`s dragging along to detract attention away from her. Law enforcement, friends, the relatives, it can`t be Jodi because this is beyond the pale.
BARON: Drew, what do you think of this?
PINSKY: Well, I was going to say, Laura, it`s almost like she`s amongst the people she`s trying to convince. It`s herself. I mean, she keeps saying, I don`t want to give the image of that person. That`s not like me. I`m not that person. I would never -- the Jodi that everyone knew would never.
Yes, the Jodi everyone knew, the same Jodi that sliced a guy`s head off.
BARON: Also write thank you notes.
PINSKY: Yes, the same one. Same thank you. She`s very brave and very thoughtful.
Now, during today`s cross-examination, it seemed Jodi Arias was having a tough time looking at the prosecutor, Juan Martinez.
Take a look at this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Do you have any problems with your memory?
MARTINEZ: You didn`t seem to have any problem during direct examination when you were talking to us about all the sexual exploits Mr. Alexander, did you?
ARIAS: I did have problems.
MARTINEZ: You regaled us all week with your sexual exploits, didn`t you?
ARIAS: I wouldn`t say regaled.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, Mark told us --
PINSKY: Are we watching a tape here or am I going to keep talking here? I`m not quite sure.
Yes. Janine, Mark told us that the reason she looked to the jury was something that the defense no doubt had schooled her to do. But looking at it even now, it`s so bizarre and robotic, Janine, don`t you agree? It`s almost like she is so disconnected from what she`s saying as she looks at the jury with responses to very provocative questions, and no, no to the jury.
Do you agree?
DRIVER: I do agree, Dr. Drew. I think there is a big disconnect here.
But it`s interesting, I kind of disagree with Mark here, and I`m typically on his side. But I disagree a little bit politely, because I think even though she may be coached, it`s like a criminal who returns to the scene of the crime. I think when she`s telling her lies, she`s possibly looking of to her right, to the jury, to see if the jury is buying this.
We know if you lie to your husband in the living room, you go upstairs in the bedroom, 10 minutes later the liar comes down and starts small- talking to the husband to see, what, if he`s buying it.
So, I think more likely than not, it`s less about gaining sympathy and more about buying -- are they buying my story?
EIGLARSH: Janine, my darling, it is trial work 101 to instruct any witness. Prosecutors do it to law enforcement officers. We do it to any witnesses we have, that you don`t continue to look in the direction away from the jurors if you`re going to be most effective, that you then need to shift to the jurors and look at them. That`s 101 in trial work.
PINSKY: But, Mark -- she`s going like, no. Keep going, Mr. Martinez. Yes. Keep going, Mr. Martinez.
EIGLARSH: Brother, I`m with you. I`m not saying she`s doing it effectively. I think she looks horrible up there. I`m just saying that`s what she`s doing and I know why she`s doing it.
BARON: She`s looking off at a glance.
DRIVER: What was that?
PINSKY: Go ahead --
BARON: It also seems like she`s been informed by some of the media criticism. I mean, last week, she was naughty. This week, she`s like a nun. It seems like her persona has been informed by the outside world.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting, whether they`re watching what we`re talking about here.
All right. We`re going to take a break. Next, while Jodi testifies, Travis Alexander`s sisters have been saying a lot without actually speaking a word. More on them when we get back.
And later, Jodi`s high school friend is here defending her.
Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: He was talking about coming up and so that he wanted to try this little red riding hood thing, and we were just determining when that would happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Travis` sisters have been in the front row for Jodi`s testimony, including all those details about the alleged sexual exploits with their brother.
Back with our co-host Laura Baron and the human lie detector, I like to call her, Janine Driver.
Janine, that eye rolling from Travis` sister was tough to miss. Is she doing that because she can`t resist, or is she trying to develop a rapport with the jury? And if so, does that have an impact on the jury?
DRIVER: Well, I`m really cautious, Dr. Drew, about being a mind reader. I don`t know exactly if she planned it, or what her purpose it. But I will tell you, it`s highly likely that subconsciously by her doing this, she`s building rapport with the jury. Rapport is people like people who are like themselves.
And so, when the jury sees her do this with this eye roll, they think to themselves something along the lines, if my brother was slaughtered, would I do that if my brother was slaughtered, and this woman was on the stand lying about my brother, would I do the same thing? The answer is mostly likely yes. She builds rapport.
And most attorneys will know this little secret and Mark will probably know this one for sure. He knows all the tricks, is this -- that if it`s springtime, if an attorney sneezes and it`s springtime and they go, ah- choo, and they look at the jury and say, sorry, I have allergies, it`s allergy season.
Sixty percent of the jury has allergies, so what do they do? They build a rapport. We`re saying to the jury, I`m like you, so like me. If you like me --
DRIVER: -- I`m the attorney. You know it, Mark. Mark, you know it.
PINSKY: What`s say you, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Let me say this, I`ve been trying cases for 20 years in the criminal system, and I will tell you that I never heard anybody sneezing to build a rapport with the jury. If my client`s life hinges upon me doing a silly trick like that, then God help him.
DRIVER: Listen, this is what the attorneys do in law enforcement, Dr. Drew. I know this as a fact. I`ve taken course with court testimony where they teach people to do it on the stand.
So, Mark, I`ll give you that free tip. You can try and see how it works for your client.
BARON: Can we just take back for just a second? Did anybody get the little red riding hood reference? I mean, does anybody think that`s as strange as I do?
PINSKY: Yes. I`m here. Strange, yes.
PINSKY: Yes. The whole -- there`s a lot of weird stuff. I`m still back preoccupied with the end of the world stuff that she got into and she`s calling her friends but not her family, and she was concerned with -- I love this line on the stand. "I`m concerned" -- what was it -- "with his eternal salvation."
And what does she think about her own eternal salvation right now? She`s decided that she`s innocent? She announced her innocence on "48 Hours"? She`s going to be fine up in heaven? I`m not sure about that.
Karen in California. Karen, you want to ring in her with us?
KAREN, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I`m shocked when you say women have sympathy for arias. I see her as a manipulative --
PINSKY: I would just -- listen, I just started hearing a little more sympathy, Karen, from some women, that a sort of withering quality to the prosecution for some women is making them feel sympathetic.
KAREN: Yes, not at all from me. Coming from an abusive ex-boyfriend relationship, I never would have not been able to show fear when I was triggered by the prosecutor. I would have had to have that same reaction if he triggered me.
And she didn`t have that. And she`s --
PINSKY: Thank you, Karen. Go ahead.
KAREN: I just going to say, she`s worse than Casey Anthony.
PINSKY: Well, it`s very different, isn`t it?
One of my jurors coming up, the guys in the courtroom, who wants to make a little bit of that comparison.
Up next, we`ve heard a lot about Jodi`s -- we`ve heard a lot of Jodi`s let`s call baby talk voice, little girl voice. How is that affecting her testimony?
And later, Jodi`s high school friend is here to tell us about her past, her past relationship with a boyfriend in high school, and her opinion. We can`t substantiate any of this, about whether or not Jodi was, in fact, a victim of abuse.
We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you moan, baby, it sounds like -- it sounds like a 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. It`s so hot.
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HE EX-BOYFRIEND: You`re bad. You make me feel so dirty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What factors influenced you`re having a memory problem?
ARIAS: Usually, when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the same.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did that make you feel?
ARIAS: It made me feel not good, I guess. It made me feel yucky.
Oh my gosh! Do you remember that time when I came to visit you when I was still in California and I fell asleep on your chair next to your bed, and you just woke me up by pulling my pants off and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and my(EXPLETIVE DELETED). I would have been completely content just cuddling with you once we got into bed, but --
ARIAS: You had another agenda.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
ARIAS: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to tie your arms around the tree and blindfold you and (INAUDIBLE)
ARIAS: Oh, my gosh! You`re full of ideas. That deep, sleepy, sexy voice. It makes me want to cuddle with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis is getting tired.
ARIAS: I can tell, because then you start to slur your words. And you`re kind of quiet with those long pauses.
ARIAS: You a sleepy boy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go to sleep, OK?
ARIAS: I will in a little bit.
PINSKY: So creepy. Back with co-host for the week, Laura Baron. Laura, now, you do relationship coaching. What are your thoughts on how she was behaving in those tapes, the little girl voice, so to speak, as compared to what we see on the stand?
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: Well, you can certainly see their cat and mouse game in that. You can certainly see, like, oh, come here and pursue me, and oh, I`m just a little girl. But I find it so interesting that on the stand, she`s like sexual manipulator like last week. She was just full-on woman.
PINSKY: Right. I think that`s the case we`ve been making all along that she`s very chameleon-like. And, you know, in my world when people have severe childhood trauma, sometimes, they will kind of have that little girl voice and it will get stuck. They`ll sound that way all the time. But she was using that specifically to manipulate this guy who clearly had sort of an issue.
I mean, we can`t prove this, but he sort of was like -- that was alluring to him, that kind of thing. And she just played it up to the hilt. Now, CASEY, JODI smiles a lot during her 48-hour interview. She smiled, and in the interview, she said she was smiling in her mug shot. I could not follow this logic, because Travis would have wanted it?
This is more the end of the world thinking for me. And Thursday on the stand, she seemed to be sort of having a sardonic grin, you know, she`s sort of looked back in defiance at the prosecutor. What is all this inappropriate smiling about?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, Drew, you can`t find the logic in it because there is no logic in it. There was absolutely no reason for her to mug with that cheesy smile in her mug shot. It was -- it`s disturbing. It was disturbing then, it`s even more disturbing now that we know the truth about the fact that she did kill Travis.
There`s just no explanation for it except that it really does fit with this chameleon-like constantly. You know, we keep talking about coolies (ph) looking glass self (ph). That chameleon aspect of her. She is coy. When she is uncomfortable, she just goes to child. She becomes the cute, little, cutesy child, and this has always probably worked out for her. Smile, be cute. It worked for Travis.
What I find disturbing and creepy about those audiotapes is, of course, she`s talking in baby talk, but Travis isn`t talking back to her that way. He`s not really into it, and she is using it, as you said, to manipulate him, try to pull her into -- pull him into her web. And now, she`s smiling at the jury and playing that same game because she`s a chameleon in the courtroom just as much as she is in real life.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Laura.
BARON: Hey, Drew, do you think that having that soft smile in the courtroom is helping her with any of the male jurors?
PINSKY: I don`t think so. I think it`s creeping guys out. Mark, do you have make any sense of all this?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes. I would tell her not to smile, it looks bad. But understand something. It doesn`t matter how she acts. The bottom line in this case is when she stabbed him -- by her own admission she did that -- when she slit his throat, when he was shot, she shot him.
Did she reasonably fear death or great bodily harm? She didn`t establish that. She did not make that clear for the jury. Everything else is garbage. It doesn`t matter!
PINSKY: Right. And I think that is the tact the prosecution is taking is sort of systemically going through what little evidence she provided, and there`s really no evidentiary basis for anything she`s claiming and sort of making that case over and over again. Go.
EIGLARSH: But you don`t do it for two, three, four days. You get right to it. You go right through it. Boom, boom, boom. Is it a fact that you lied on 48 hours when you said this? And then you lied again when you said this. And now, you want the jury to believe this? It`s in and out, leading questions, not two to three days of a big fatty steak but very lean filet mignon.
I keep using that metaphor because there`s just too much fat on this cross examination. And a middle school junior debater could make her look bad because she is just horrible when she testifies.
PINSKY: Linda in Ohio -- Linda.
LINDA, OHIO: Hi, Dr. Drew. This is Linda.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
LINDA: I`ll tell you today and Thursday, I wanted to reach through that TV and slap the crap out of her. I don`t believe a word she says. I think she`s lying.
PINSKY: All right. Well, I think we`ve sort of making that case, too. Do you get, Linda, any frustration with the prosecution or the defense lawyers?
LINDA: I get frustrated with him with that skipping around.
PINSKY: Too much --
LINDA: -- inappropriate of her to send those flowers, and she is ashamed now but she wasn`t ashamed when she was on there put him --
PINSKY: Hey, Linda. Linda, how old are you? Linda, if you don`t mind, how old are you?
LINDA: I`m 64 years old.
PINSKY: Do you have grandkids?
LINDA: I have great-grandkids.
PINSKY: Could you imagine if somebody killed one of your grandkids and then sent you flowers? Could you imagine?
LINDA: I would be horribly, horribly upset.
PINSKY: I`m surprised we`re not -- yes. I mean, you`re mad and you don`t even know this woman. Imagine -- forget killed -- touched one of your grandkids. I think you`d be on a rampage.
LINDA: -- through that TV and slap the crap out of her.
PINSKY: I believe you might. All right. Thanks, Linda. Do we have another caller? Do we have time for that? We`ll see we can get one more call, guys, in the control room? Instead of having Liz, I`ve got Emily. Do I have time for that, anybody? I don`t see a name up there. There we go. Carl. Carl, what do you got for me? Carl?
CARL, IDAHO: Yes. How are you doing, Dr. Drew? I`d just like to say thank you for everything you do for everybody, and I think it`s just very, very disrespectful for her to get up there and think any of part of this is funny whatsoever. I don`t think it`s -- personally, if you kill somebody, I don`t think it`s funny. You know what I mean?
PINSKY: Carl, isn`t that -- Carl, isn`t that -- yes. Carl, this is how men -- it`s not even just not funny. Doesn`t it add, as a male, add to the creep factor in all this? Isn`t that creeping you out even more when she`s smiling and -- right?
CARL: Oh, yes. And then, she`s sitting there telling all, this is what Travis would do. I don`t think Travis would be that disrespectful. She`s thinking she`s religious. Religious people don`t lie constantly like she`s doing.
PINSKY: Well, Carl, don`t worry. Don`t worry. When the end of the world comes, she`s got everyone`s eternal soul in mind. She`s going to help everyone`s eternal salvation is going to be handled by Jodi Arias. You know, that`s the Jodi arias that Jodi knows, and she wants the jury to know that. I`ve got to take a break. Thank you, guys.
Jodi`s high school friend tells us why she believes her story.
And later, they had a front row seat for today`s testimony, so why does -- who does my jury -- there`s one of them -- who do they think won today? Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he didn`t hurt you at all, to use your term, in August, and this is something that goes to your head, then the expectation would be that he wouldn`t hurt you in 2008 and there`s no reason to be afraid of him, right?
ARIAS: Not after he broke my finger, hit, and almost killed me by choking me unconscious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pardon. What did you say?
ARIAS: I said not after he broke my finger, hit me, and choked me unconscious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jodi on the stand talking about Travis` alleged abuse. Back with my co-host, Laura Baron. Joining us via the phone is Jodi`s high school friend, Tina Ross. Now, Tina, you have suspicion that Travis may have abused Jodi because of some previous experience you believe you know about during high school? Is that right?
VOICE OF TINA ROSS, JODI`S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: Yes.
PINSKY: Can you tell us about that?
ROSS: Well, I can remember Jodi when I knew her and she was a very outgoing, happy, funny girl, and when she started dating Bobby, she totally changed and he isolated her, and I can remember calling her one night and her being very upset and had expressed some abuse that had went on with him --
PINSKY: I got to remind the audience that CNN and HLN cannot confirm that Bobby abused Jodi, but Tina, you`re saying that you talked to her. She made some allegations of abuse. This is the kid that was sort of -- he was the vampire, right? Isn`t it that kid? Bobby?
ROSS: Yes. Yes. He was --
PINSKY: Were you surprised that he was with her? Did you try to sort of dissuade her from staying with him? Were friends sort of gathering around her and he kept isolating her from everybody?
PINSKY: And then, what about these allegations that she was abused by her family? Did she ever talk to you about that?
ROSS: I know her parents were really strict. That`s just what I had gotten from it, you know, where most of us, you know, we were freshmen, sophomores in high school, we had a ten o`clock, nine o`clock curfew. Jodi had to be in by six o`clock. Her parents, you know, had really high expectations. So, I would consider them strict. I didn`t know of any, like, abuse per se, but --
PINSKY: There`s a giant difference between abuse -- between strict and actually laying hands on somebody. Tina, does this whole thing --
BARON: Tina, when is the last time you spoke to Jodi?
ROSS: It`s been years, maybe 1999, 2000.
PINSKY: And are you shocked by the turn of events here?
ROSS: Oh, completely shocked. The Jodi I knew was very kind. She wouldn`t hurt anyone. So, when I heard about this, it was just like this guy had to really, really hurt Jodi. and there might not have been a lot of physical abuse, but I`m sure it`s the mental and emotional abuse that he did to her had to be pretty bad for her to do something like this.
PINSKY: Mark, I think that`s the case the defense is making, but that`s not really a defense for murder, is it?
EIGLARSH: Absolutely not. First of all, I don`t value anything candidly what Tina had to say. I don`t think it has anything to do with whether she`s capable of murder. She knew her back in 1999, OK, and what she did and why she did it, little, little relevance, her testimony. But let`s take it one step further.
Even if Travis did, and conveniently dead guys can`t tell tales so he can`t defend himself. But even if he was abusive, that`s not what this case is about. Just because he might have been abusive doesn`t mean that on the day in question, she had to stab him 20-some odd times, slit his throat and shoot him because that was the only way that she could defend herself.
EIGLARSH: She never made that case effectively. So, I don`t want anyone to be concerned. OK, so maybe abuse took place, thus, she`s not guilty. The prosecution needs to handle this effectively and make that point.
PINSKY: Quickly, Linda in Ohio -- Linda.
LINDA, OHIO: Hey, Dr. Drew. Dr. Drew, creepy is the word of the day.
LINDA: I felt Jodi really attempted to contain her arrogance a little more today, but, even after her defense team watched your show last week and they had a little pow-wow with her, her sociopathic creep factor still made an appearance when she continues to correct the prosecutor, Juan Martinez.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Up next -- thank you, Linda -- my jury is here. They`ll tell us what it was like in the courtroom after this.
PINSKY: It is time for "Dr. Drew`s Jury." Back with our co-host this week, relationship coach, Laura Baron. Joining us, Katie Wick. She`s become a full-time juror. Katie, I don`t know what else you do with your time, but you`re certainly helping us out here.
BARON: You`re wonderful.
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": This is it.
PINSKY: Joining Katie, Beau Barney -- OK, well, I appreciate that. Beau was in the courthouse for the first time today. So, Beau, I`m going to start with you. Tell us what you observed about Jodi, about Jodi`s family. I understand you observed something about Jodi`s family just in the hallway outside the courtroom, even.
BEAU BARNEY, DR. DREW "JUROR": Yes. It was really interesting, actually, being in the courtroom. Before we even went in the courtroom, I had an opportunity to kind of interact with his sister. She was handing out some ribbons for people to support Travis. So, that was kind of interesting. And then, actually, in the courtroom, probably the biggest thing that I paid attention to and noticed was the jury.
At home, you can see everything else going on. You can see Jodi, the attorneys and things, but you don`t get to see the jury, and I thought that was really interesting. And in fact, I noticed some things with some certain jurors that were kind of interesting as far as one of the jurors was sitting closest to Jodi just seemed like she was kind of disengaged and almost like she had already checked out.
She wasn`t really paying attention to Jodi. She wasn`t looking at her or making eye contact, and then one of the other jurors, another lady, she has the pink hair, she`s very engaged. So, it was kind of two polar opposites in that aspect.
BARON: Beau, how were the male jurors when Jodi was crying? Katie, you can answer this, too. When she was really emotional, what was the jury doing then?
BARNEY: You know, I didn`t really notice much reaction from the male jurors. You know what, another thing I noticed about the jury was when she looks at the jury, it seems really awkward, kind of when she`s answering, and it`s like Dr. Drew said earlier, it`s really robotic. She just seems - - and you notice that more in the courtroom than you do watching it from home.
WICK: And something that I noticed today that I wanted to bring up as well is when they played the video of Jodi explaining why she smiled in her mug shot today, it is the first time that I saw the jury visibly disgusted. They looked disgusted when she said, smile and say cheese. It`s the first time I really saw the jury just looked -- they just had this look of disgust on her face at her.
I think they`re tired of her and enough is enough. And still, Martinez is still, little by little, chipping away at those lies and proving his point. We were kind of left today a little bit confused as to where he`s going with Bobby, but prior -- in the afternoon -- the beginning of the afternoon session, he was really hitting all the marks, saying, you lied here.
You didn`t put this in your journal. You didn`t put this in your journal. And Jodi can`t lie, she has to admit no. So, still, he`s doing really good at chipping away at her lies.
BARON: Hey, Katie, what about when she had said that that guy was full of crap when he was talking about going down south? How were the jurors then?
WICK: Yes. They were on the edge of their seats there, but for a lot of that times, there wasn`t a lot of writing notes today. I didn`t see a lot of that. When the tapes were playing, they were paying a lot of attention. I saw a couple of the jurors -- actually, when Juan Martinez transitioned from talking about what was in her journal and he says, OK, let me prove this to you, Jodi.
I saw one of the jurors, the female juror, actually, we`re talking about with the pink hair, and I saw her kind of raise her eyebrows next to the juror that she was sitting next to kind of like, wow, what`s did he have up his sleeve? Kind of like, wow, he`s going to catch her again in a lie. So --
WICK: They were really engaged today.
PINSKY: Let`s quickly now take another call from Feather. She`s actually in Arizona. Feather, go right ahead.
FEATHER, ARIZONA: Hi. My mother was brutally murdered by my dad, and he tried to save -- he didn`t remember. He was convicted of it. They put him away because you do that to murderers, you put them away. I really hope that they put her away. I really hope they put her away.
PINSKY: Well, what do you guys think? Katie -- OK. Let me ask. I mean, Katie has been -- I mean, Feather has been through this horrible experience. Katie, you guys are there looking at that jury. A, do you think they`re likely to convict her? And B, if they do, is there a death penalty here?
WICK: I think the way the tide is turning, especially since Juan Martinez has had Jodi on the stand and since the jurors were getting kind of tired towards nurmes` (ph) examination, I think -- I felt more confident about a conviction. However, as far as the death penalty goes, I still have my reservations and I don`t know if Beau is the same.
BARNEY: I feel the same way. I mean, I`m kind of torn between -- I believe there`ll be a conviction. I`m torn between the death penalty. One part of me, it`s pretty obvious that it was premeditated with all the preplanning of the rental car and the gas cans and things like that. But it`s hard to determine if that`s been proven without a doubt that they can say that`s what she was doing.
PINSKY: All right, guys. Thank you both. Thank you, Katie. I want to find out what a young guy like you is doing in that courtroom, too, Beau, what motivated you to go there, but I`m out of time. Be right back.
PINSKY: Katie and Beau, my producers have given me back to you for just a few seconds here, so I do want to follow up on that question. Beau, what are you doing in that courtroom?
BARNEY: I tell you what, it`s -- my wife actually had a conference here in Phoenix. I`ve been following the case at home, but we were here in Phoenix. I dropped her off at her conference at the Sheraton next door and I thought, you know what? I`m going to see if I can get in. So, that`s what I did.
PINSKY: You`re killing time, Laura.
BARON: That is hysterical. We get crap because we want to go shoe shopping and Beau gets a free ticket because he`s going to the Arias concert?
PINSKY: The Arias concert?
PINSKY: All right, guys, thank you, Katie and Beau. I appreciate you joining us.
WICK: Thank you.
BARON: Thank you.
PINSKY: So, Laura, tomorrow night, we`ve got an exclusive interview with a woman who knew Jodi and Travis. What did Jodi tell her just weeks before she killed Travis? Thank you to all my guests. "Nancy Grace" begins right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t know (INAUDIBLE), right?
ARIAS: I can`t really say it wasn`t in my mind. It`s like kind of not there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest. That really must have hurt, right?