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Arias` Attitude Problem?; "Cannibal Cop" On Trial
Aired February 26, 2013 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): On the show tonight, Jodi Arias takes the stand for the 11th day.
What is behind those lying eyes? The truth about her shifting gaze and shaky story.
Plus, a friend of Travis` speaks out for the first time about the haunting thing Jodi said just weeks before killing Travis.
And later, how well do you know your husband? One woman`s online dating horror story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are charges of cannibalism. He kept files on 100 women, plotted to cook them?
PINSKY: Was the husband and father of her child plotting to torture, kill and eat her and her friends?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s the kind of thing you only see on TV.
PINSKY: Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. A lot of heavy stuff before my co-host and myself, Laura Baron.
We`re going to get to this alleged cannibalism plot. I said it.
Laura, hang on. Yes, I know. I know you can`t wait to get to that one. I`ll have a live report from New York, from someone who knows something about this case. It is chilling --
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: It`s crazy.
PINSKY: It`s crazy.
PINSKY: It`s like if somebody were writing, well, "Silence of the Lambs" or some such goofy story about a crazy person. Here --
BARON: And it`s real. What is wrong with people, Drew?
PINSKY: Let`s talk about somebody who we keep asking that very question about, Jodi Arias.
We`re joined by clinical psychologist Michelle Ward, former prosecutor Loni Coombs, did I get right? Or Combs? What did I wrong?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, you did, Coombs.
PINSKY: Coombs. There we go.
And Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense lawyer and host of "Deadly Sins" on Investigation Discovery.
Trial spectators and friends of Travis are calling Jodi a manipulator. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: Uumm -- I dunno.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Do you have a problem with your memory? I mean, this was approximately no more than two weeks away.
ARIAS: I don`t think I have a problem. I don`t remember if I gave you the details or not.
MARTINEZ: So the answer is yes or no? Do you remember?
ARIAS: Remember what?
MARTINEZ: What are we talking about?
ARIAS: We`re talking about the incident.
MARTINEZ: Right. And what specifically of the incident are we talking about?
ARIAS: I`m not sure.
MARTINEZ: I just want to know how much time.
ARIAS: Between what and what, again?
MARTINEZ: What are we talking about, ma`am?
ARIAS: We`re talking about the incident.
MARTINEZ: You weren`t going to put up with that, either, were you?
ARIAS: Put up with what?
MARTINEZ: What is it we`re talking about here?
ARIAS: Which part to put up with?
MARTINEZ: Were you going to put with what we just talked about? Are you having problems understanding again what`s going on?
ARIAS: Sometimes because you go in circles.
MARTINEZ: But you just said it was a good word, right?
ARIAS: Yes. I think.
MARTINEZ: You think. That means you don`t remember what you just said?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
MARTINEZ: You think so means you don`t know, right?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
MARTINEZ: Well, this just happened. How is it that you are not remembering what you`re saying?
ARIAS: Because you`re making my brain scramble.
MARTINEZ: Yes or no?
ARIAS: I was saying no and you interrupted me.
MARTINEZ: So how is it that if it just happened, you can`t even remember what you just said?
ARIAS: I think I`m more focused on your posture and your tone and your anger.
MARTINEZ: Again, the prosecutor`s fault because you perceive him to be angry, right?
ARIAS: It`s not your fault.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Straight out to Beth Karas, correspondent for "In Session."
Beth, a lot of criticism, a lot of chatter out in the press today criticizing the prosecutor for the tasks he had been taking. Your take on that and the most shocking moment in court today.
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: You know, I don`t criticize either side for what they do. No one knows as much about this case as Juan Martinez. He knows where he`s going. He has points he`s making. And they`re being developed and they may be developed tomorrow or the next day, so who are we to sit back and say, oh, we can`t follow this?
And making her brain scramble might be a good cross examination.
A key point today is that -- well, there were several points where Juan Martinez continued to point out inconsistencies between her direct and her cross examination. We spent eight days, Dr. Drew, listening to her trash the victim, the man she slaughtered, saying that he abused her physically and emotionally and that he was very degrading in his acts, and she submitted to sexual acts unwittingly. She would submit she didn`t want to engage in them.
Well, he confronted her with the text today that she wrote where she invited oral sex where he would then ejaculate on her face. She asks for it. This wasn`t somebody who was submitting.
BARON: Beth, I was watching this. I mean, this was practically an infomercial for K-Y Jelly. It was unbelievable today. And the comfort that she had in talking about all this naughtiness. I mean, Drew, last week, she was like, oh, no, not me. Now, she`s like, I need -- you know?
PINSKY: Yes, she was cool with it.
And, Michelle Ward, I think she was just sort of -- she was acting before the way she imagined someone should behave when they are ashamed of what`s being portrayed, and now, she is sort of lost track of that. Do you agree?
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. She`s having a hard time keeping up with that on the stand. Let`s remember, she`s got psychopathic tendencies, she`s a manipulator. And psychopaths don`t experience a lot of these emotions, so what they do is study other people and mimic it.
Well, she`s having a hard time. Give her a few years practicing being on the stand, she`ll get better at this.
But, honestly, she`s -- the real Jodi is coming out, and as a trial consultant in addition to a criminal psychologist, I`m mortified because this is her opportunity to explain some things, and she`s failing.
DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, hang on, Drew, can I jump in here very quickly?
PINSKY: Yes. Darren, please, go right ahead.
KAVINOKY: So, it`s well-accepted and well-known that Jodi Arias has two full scoops of crazy in her breakfast cereal. There`s no debate about that. She is the kind of woman who would boil bunny rabbits and leave them boiling on the kitchen stove.
PINSKY: So it seems. Yes.
KAVINOKY: But when it comes to a jury trial, one other thing we can all accept is that prosecutors have wet dreams about cross-examining criminal defendants from the first day they`re in law school.
KAVINOKY: And, sadly, when they finally get the opportunity -- hang on, hang on. But when they have the opportunity to actually fulfill on that, oftentimes it`s a premature -- it`s a premature examination, shall we say. The number one rule in cross examination --
PINSKY: I challenge all of us to see, in spite of the explicit nature of the conversation in the courtroom, if we can drop the sexual innuendo.
Loni, I want to go to you.
COOMBS: Here`s the thing, prosecutors don`t get as many opportunities to cross examine as defendants do. That`s the basic truth, so they may not be quite as skilled as defense attorneys are.
Juan Martinez, obviously, is very experienced and he has a set style that is intimidating, controlling. He bullies around the courtroom, and obviously that`s worked for him in the past.
It`s not going to work with Jodi because she is one of the most skillful witnesses I`ve ever seen on being able to sit back, listen to the question very an analytically, pull out the word that doesn`t work and hone in on that. When Juan makes it Juan versus Jodi, he`s not going to win because Jodi is never going to get him what he wants.
But when he makes it Jodi versus Jodi, he`s very effective. When he goes to the journal, when he goes to the text messages, when he goes to the phone sex tape, when he goes to the "48 Hours" interview, and shows all the different Jodi`s out there, she takes on different roles, then you see it speaks for itself. He doesn`t -- it doesn`t matter --
KAVINOKY: He should it at that.
COOMBS: He gets to see the different roles. Exactly.
KAVINOKY: But, Loni, he should leave it at that.
PINSKY: One at a time. Play nice.
Darren, finish, and then we`ve got to go to break.
KAVINOKY: Sure. With cross examination, it should be a short declarative sentence and it only becomes a question because of voice inflexion. He`s losing the battle by asking what and who and where and to explain.
COOMBS: I agree. I agree, Daren.
BARON: Yes, he is an epic fail.
PINSKY: Hold on, guys. Hold on. There is a lot of criticism. Though Beth came to his defense, it`s easy to criticize, Beth is saying we`ll see when this plays out.
KAVINOKY: He`s overruled.
PINSKY: Also, Michelle --
BARON: He`s a bully.
PINSKY: Well, that`s what I`m fearful or people are fearful might be going on in the jurors` mind, creating some sympathy for Jodi. I was hearing that from women, guys, more than men, the last few days particularly.
PINSKY: Michelle, I want to talk. We have a lot to talk about today, but the kind of stalker this woman was and what that means about what`s going on in her head.
I`ve got next up, a friend of Travis` who tells us what Jodi told her just weeks before the slaughter.
And later, a New York police officer, a New York cop, is accused of plotting to kill and eat and cook on a spit and -- it`s unbelievable -- multiple women including his wife. That`s coming up later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: You think somebody who masturbates to pictures of nude boys is beautiful on the inside, right?
ARIAS: I don`t think that aspect of him is beautiful at all. I think it`s sickening.
MARTINEZ: It says, "Travis, you are beautiful on the inside and outside," right?
MARTINEZ: You are the one that has the K-Y or brought it into the relationship to make it better, right?
ARIAS: To facilitate our activities.
MARTINEZ: On the other hand, you`re saying, well, I feel like a prostitute? Which one is it?
ARIAS: Well, when he throws (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in my face and getting (ph) away and walks away without a word, it kind of felt like I was a prostitute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So was Jodi a victim in all this or was Travis the victim?
I`m back with my co-host for the week, Laura Baron.
Laura, she keeps talking about this being a controlling relationship, and the fact is -- the way she describes the relationship, you`d have to say that any relationship was controlling if you had a desire to make your partner happy.
Well, she`s also in it. She`s saying she`s enjoying it, that she wants it and then she wants to be able to criticize it.
I mean, I can say in these sex games, though, there can be one whip too many.
PINSKY: Well, but here`s the take-home for everybody. You never know what the other person is experiencing.
PINSKY: You really don`t know.
And so in her mind, she was being controlled. In his, this was lovely play. And what the prosecutor is trying to show is that although she may have felt controlled in some obscure way, it does not justify murder.
BARON: Well, of course.
PINSKY: Joining us exclusively, Julie Christopher. Julie was a friend of Travis`, who was with him and Jodi at a dinner just two weeks before the killing.
Julie, you have a story about something Jodi said to you that very evening. Can you tell us about that?
JULIE CHRISTOPHER, FRIEND OF TRAVIS: Yes, sir. Dr. Drew, it`s been very interesting because there`s things that happened about two weeks prior to the murder, and we had an event, and after the event for the business, we went to a dinner with a few other folks.
And Travis and I were good friends, so we sat down at the table. We started, you know, eating normally, and, Dr. Drew, we have -- Travis was sitting across from me and Jodi was sitting on my right side, so you can really visualize a little bit of that.
And by profession, I`m an intuitive, and so I was eating and something happened within my body. I felt a really cold chill. I just got a chill right now. And I have no idea. The only thing is, when I do this, when I listen to my body this way, I knew it was a message and I knew it was about Travis.
So, I look at Travis, I said, honey --
PINSKY: Hang on. Hang on, let me -- Julie, I`m going to interrupt you. I`m sorry, we have a little delay, but I have to interrupt you sometimes.
I actually put great faith in how our -- what our body tells us as an antenna. I wonder if you were picking something up from Jodi. Is there anything she said or anything you felt from her that gave you the feeling that something was desperately wrong with her that gave, you say, that chill?
CHRISTOPHER: Not at that point, because there is a few other incidents that happened that clicked to me, but at that point, it was just that. And again, this is what I do for a living. I read people, so I know how my body works.
So I knew it was something that I had to get out, and I told Travis, I said, honey, just come with me to the ladies` room, and I remember -- it`s very crystallized in my brain. I would never forget that. I said, let`s go.
BARON: And, Julie, did you tell anybody about this feeling?
CHRISTOPHER: Yes, I told that -- yes, I told this feeling, but let me finish the story, please, because this is important that I share this. And I told Travis, OK, let`s go to the ladies` room, and I did a reading and usually I have somebody like Travis hold my hands and I hold his hands, and he was standing in front of me, and I said, close your eyes.
And I closed my eyes and I said, listen, I`m not -- I`m just going to give you a message. So, I said, well, there`s a really dark cloud around you, and I said, just so you know, just watch your back. And I said, well, however, there is a lot of angels around you, there is guidance and there is a lot of love and somehow you have that strength and that love around you, and I just want to tell you how much I love you and you`re going to be free.
And then he started crying, I started crying, we hugged and kissed. You know, I was his spiritual body. And we went back to sit down at the table --
PINSKY: Do you feel like you could have done something to change directions?
CHRISTOPHER: But it`s hard to think that, well, his girlfriend, you know, is going to go after him. You kind of -- you know, that was the message, that was it.
PINSKY: I have to interrupt you because I have to take a break.
Next up, did Jodi viciously murder Travis out of jealousy or was it because Travis was planning to bring another woman on a trip to Cancun? Later, again, about this New York cop, I`m not kidding. Cannibalism. A cannibalism fantasy with his wife at the center of it.
I`ve done a little investigation about cannibalism in the days leading up to this story, and the time leading up to the story. And I`m telling you, this is all chilling.
Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: You and he had discussed him going to Cancun. He didn`t ask you to go, right?
ARIAS: What was that?
MARTINEZ: He did not ask you to go, correct?
ARIAS: That`s correct.
MARTINEZ: You knew that he was going to Cancun with somebody else, right?
MARTINEZ: And this was about the time, because of the telephone call of May 10th, that he was still talking to you about sex, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`re going to talk about that weird robotic way that she answers all her questions over to the right, to the jury. It seems weird to me.
I`m back with my co-host, Laura Baron.
Travis` friend Julie Christopher joins us exclusively, and we`re looking at Julie`s photos from the Cancun trip that Travis was supposed to go on. Julie, who was the woman that was supposed to go to Cancun with Travis and where is she now, to the best of your knowledge?
CHRISTOPHER: She is -- basically was a Prepaid Legal associate who was part of the business. I believe she just got started in the business, and she was just very excited of going on the trip to Cancun because the fact that crossed her that day. She said, I`m so excited to go to Cancun. Can you believe it, Travis invited me to Cancun? I said, well, that`s great, honey.
That`s how I found out that Jodi was upset and she was basically leaving, going back to California, to leave, you know, to leave Phoenix to go to California, because Jodi tells me she was upset, she broke up with -- they broke up. And she was very upset, she couldn`t stay in Phoenix if she didn`t have a chance to be with Travis, and she`d rather be away from him because she loved him too much.
PINSKY: And when you found out that Travis was dead, what did you think? You knew there was this black cloud. You had been hearing Jodi carrying on. Did you have any instinct about it?
CHRISTOPHER: OK, let`s put it that way with Travis. I`m outside having a really nice party and lunch, eating shrimp, right? I`m in Cancun.
CHRISTOPHER: And I find out Travis is dead. My mouth opens up, I look at my husband and I go, it`s Jodi. I didn`t even bite.
PINSKY: Can you -- I`ve got about 30 second, Julie. I`m sorry. I`m running out of time. What was it about Jodi that led you to have that instinct, do you think?
CHRISTOPHER: The thing of it is, her demeanors. She was -- I describe it as zombie-like. She was just not -- almost not human, you know? It just felt very, very uneasy. Never had --
BARON: That`s a lot of people are saying.
CHRISTOPHER: That`s right. I mean --
BARON: I mean, you could not approach her. She was very cold, very cold vibe, and you just knew something was off with that person. You just knew it. Everybody knew it.
PINSKY: Well, Julie, I`m going to say that -- thank you, Julie, for those comments. I do put a lot of -- sort of a credence in what you`re saying as your body was reacting to these people. There was a lot going on there and I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us tonight.
Next up, Jodi is recalling lying eyes. What does her gaze shift -- her gaze seems to shift even more than her stories do. And she has -- again, she does this robotic thing looking over at the jurors all the time. Is that highly schooled? Is there something manipulative going on?
We`re going to talk about it.
And later on, one woman`s online dating horror stories. You think you`ve been set up on some bad dates. This is the worst you`ll ever have heard of.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANINE DRIVER, LIE DETECTOR EXPERT FOR FBI AND CIA: When she`s telling her lies, she possibly is looking off to her right, to the jury, to see if the jury is buying this. We know if you lie to your husband in the living room, you go upstairs in the bedroom, 10 minutes later, the liar comes down and starts small talking with the husband to see what, if he`s buying it.
So I think more than likely than not, it`s less about gaining sympathy and more about, are they buying my story?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And that is what we were thinking last night during our discussion about Jodi`s lying eyes. I`m back with my co-host this week, relationship coach Laura Baron.
Laura, do you feel that was it, or was it her coached, skilled -- not even skilled -- schooled?
BARON: I think you`ve got it down. I think your robotics is right down. And I think that it`s a connection to the jury? Because listen, Juan Martinez is beating this young girl up. It is repulsive to see. Repulsive.
So I think she looks over to the jury and is like, yes, this is horrible.
PINSKY: And, Darren, Darren Kavinoky, do you agree with me or do you make something else of that weird turn to the jury with every answer?
BARON: Well, it`s something that you frequently see with professional witnesses, experts who get into court and testify all the time. They`ll often look at counsel when they`re being asked a question and then turn and address the jury directly. And I think they think it plays really well, but it looks, to my way of thinking, very, very inauthentic, very canned.
And what this special telling here is that this may be something that Jodi has picked up just in the same way that she watches other human beings interacting, and therefore, she learns how to act human without actually being human. It may be something along those lines. But again, it`s something you see professional witnesses do all the time.
PINSKY: Darren, I`m going to --
COOMBS: Well, I agree with Darren, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Is that Loni or is that Michelle?
COOMBS: That`s Loni. It`s Loni.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Go ahead.
COOMBS: I agree with Darren in that, you know, Jodi really takes on these roles. I call her the Daniel Day-Lewis of defendants. I mean, whether she`s playing the sex vixen or the sexual assault victim or the sweet little friend who`s been wrongly accused, she takes on the whole role from her hair and her makeup and her eyewear to her wardrobe to her mannerisms.
And right now, she`s playing the professional witness, the earnest (ph), I`m just telling you the truth on my side of a witness. And looking at the jury and bonding -- and remember, she`s also pleading for her life here, and every time she looks directly at you, these people are going to have to look her in the eye and say, should we have her killed or not, and it`s much harder to say that when you`re looking somebody in the eye as opposed to just the side of their face.
PINSKY: I think you`re right.
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Can I say something?
PINSKY: Michelle, I`m going to give you -- Michelle, you can assure -- you`ve been with me on the stand -- not with me, you`ve had to testify as an expert. I had to do that. And usually, what you`re doing, though, is you get the question from your team, whoever it happens to be, and you turn to the jury and you explain things.
You don`t just go, um, what`s the question? Yes. OK. Next. you wouldn`t even dream of doing like that, Michelle. Don`t you agree?
WARD: That`s right. I mean, as a trial consultant, we tell every witness to do that, whether they are the criminal defendant or an expert. The audience is the jury. So, it`s probably not too complicated. She was told to do this and she`s just so mechanical. She`s not doing it well, but it can be effective.
I mean, your job up there is to be a teacher. Look, I know it looks bad that I made up those stories, but this is what I meant. This is what I was feeling at the time, and she`s not doing that.
PINSKY: Hang on. I got to stop you guys. Michelle, even the way you`re describing what you think she ought to be doing is more authentic than what she`s doing. You`re saying, well, I need to explain this to you --
PINSKY: I guess not. But Michelle, I want to go back to a question I had for you before. You`re a consultant on Discovery I.D.`s "Stalked." The show is called "Stalked." And I want you to give me some thoughts -- there`s no doubt that Jodi is stalker. That`s the one -- she`s a liar and she`s a stalker.
That`s two things that are indisputable. Help my audience understand where a stalking comes from and the spectrum of stalking and where Jodi fits in on that.
WARD: Sure. I host the show as well. Look, she is the most typical type of stalker. The classification that we often use just because it`s simple is called zonus classification, and she would be considered as a simple, professional stalker, and that simply means she targets somebody who`s a former intimate partner.
More technically, under a different classification, she would be considered a rejected stalker, and they make up the majority of the stalkers. They can`t let go of a relationship. They tie their identity up with it, and they go back and forth between pursuing this target because they want to get back together with them or they want to punish them.
And that`s what Jodi did. She was pursuing him and stalking him because she wanted him back, but then, she also needed to punish him for rejecting her. It is very standard stalking behavior, but not all stalkers are psychopaths. So, she really is a mixed bag of crazy, like Darren said.
PINSKY: And do you think that she sort of crossed into psychotic stalking when she became a killer or is she -- maybe she had, you know -- maybe it wasn`t psychopathy and stalking, maybe it was stalking that became psychotic stalking.
WARD: She could have been delusional. I`m not sure. I mean, usually, when the stalkers are delusional, they have this fantasy that not only do they love this person who they don`t know but that the person also loves them. I mean, maybe she had some sort of psychotic break during all of this.
But when we see stalking go violent, it usually is a rejected stalker or a simple obsessional -- simple obsessional stalker like Jodi, and they just - - they literally feel, if I can`t have you, no one will. I refuse to live on this planet anymore with you on it. I`m not going to kill myself, I`m killing you. And I think that`s what happened with Jodi.
PINSKY: I don`t know. Michelle, I would put you on the stand if I were the prosecution. I would say, let`s look how Jodi fits into this. Forget all that history you heard for eight days. Let`s just put Michelle on the stand and say, this fits. She did it. And, it wasn`t self-defense, i was this kind of stalking behavior, and that is that.
KAVINOKY: But there`s still a rebuttal case when you see Michelle up there.
PINSKY: I think if they`re watching, I would put her up. But listen, I`m going to talk to some folks who had a front row seat for today`s testimony. See who my jury thinks won the battle today.
And later up, as I keep telling you, a hard-working husband, a beautiful daughter, a fairy tale marriage becomes a cannibalistic fantasy world. That`s right. That, and we`re coming right back.
PINSKY: Welcome back to the show. It is time for "Dr. Drew`s Jury." I`m back with my co-host this week, relationship coach, Laura Baron. Joining us, Katie Wick, our resident juror, and Stacey Fairrington.
Katie, always first to you, I think, and well, let`s start with you tonight, anyway. Did you think Jodi looked ill on the stand today? She said she had a migraine. She certainly was sort of under -- in the pressure cooker, but you know, migraines, usually there`s something called shimmering scotoma and they`re usually unilateral and there`s a history of migraine. Do you think she was sick?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": No. No way. I think this was an easy out for her because she knew that the testimony was -- couldn`t go any lower than it was already going. I don`t think she had a migraine at all. I think this is a copout. It`s all about Jodi once again as we saw her today blame the prosecutor. It wasn`t his decibel today, it wasn`t his tone.
Now, it`s the posture of the prosecutor. I`m just waiting to see what it`s going to be tomorrow, the kind of shoes he`s wearing she doesn`t like? I mean, this is getting ridiculous. She has more excuses. I don`t think there`s a migraine.
BARON: Katie, tell me that Martinez did not bum you out today. He was attacking her. I mean, it felt like -- it felt totally unfair.
PINSKY: Maybe Stacey would answer that because I don`t think Katie would go for that. Stacey, what do you think?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Not at all. Quite honestly, I think Juan was doing a great job.
FAIRRINGTON: He kept his cool. I feel like -- I can talk to my five-year- old so much easier than one is able to communicate with Jodi. I mean, I am amazed at the level of patience he has with her on the stand.
WICK: And the interesting thing about it is that when you`re in the courtroom, I think it`s different when you watch it on TV. When you`re in the courtroom, and the jury is sitting there, the jury is sighing heavily, the jury you can visibly see they`re tired of this. He just wants an answer, and I think it`s ridiculous that Jodi thinks that she can one-up the prosecutor.
I think it`s playing really bad on her part because time feels a lot longer in that courtroom than it does on TV. And when she took (ph) about 20, 25 minutes going back and forth.
PINSKY: I think that`s really a good point and interesting. And there`s a lot of quarterbacking going on out in the media and only you guys know what it really feels like in the room. Let me take a quick call from Lori in Texas -- Lori.
LORI, TEXAS: Yes. Dr. Drew. Did Jodi really say prostitute again today?
PINSKY: Yes. Stacey and Katie are sort of grinning when you bring that question up, Lori, because the explicit nature of what made her feel like a prostitute was sort of volunteered by Jodi who is the same woman who was crying, ladies, was she not, when those kinds of things were being heard on the tape. What`s that all about?
BARON: Did you not notice also her Kardashian-coated voice where she went all baby-like when she said prostitute. Did you hear that?
WICK: Yes. She is playing this incredibly. It`s funny because she goes to her baby voice, OK. So, she says, well, Travis, I lose my mind and I might start lying because you`re yelling at me or you`re doing this. But yesterday, or the day before yesterday when Martinez was yelling at her, she was going right at him. She does her baby voice when it`s convenient for Jodi, and she`s not fooling anybody.
She flips, Dr. Drew. She flips from one minute to the next, and I wanted to ask you, if possible, Dr. Drew, real quick. She -- Jodi continues to refer to Travis in the present tense. And I was just wondering, do you have an idea as to why she does that? It`s real interesting. She continues to say Travis is.
PINSKY: Yes. To try to make sense of some of the stuff, I would caution people against, including her desire to save everyone`s eternal soul with her yesterday, she --
BARON: Or kill it.
PINSKY: She has a plan for everybody. Stacey, you said, you know, your five-year-old does a better job at responding to authority. Talk to us as a mom listening to all this. How do you react?
FAIRRINGTON: My level of frustration, I really want to take some tips from Juan, I think. I think he keeps his calm --
PINSKY: Wow. God bless you. First of all, God bless you. Susan in Louisiana. Susan, very quickly, what do you got for us?
SUSAN, LOUISIANA: Hi. My husband is a prosecutor here in the state we live in. I don`t know exactly what the laws are in Arizona, but I know that the prosecutors and the people -- the defense attorneys and all usually spend a lot of time picking the jury, and here, in this state, for sure. And they can, you know, tell them no or say no, I don`t want this one, I don`t want that one. They know a whole lot of --
PINSKY: Yes, of course. Susan, I`m going to interrupt you because I`m literally out of time. But ladies, first of all, we go to a lot of effort to pick our jury. That`s why we have these lovely women on our panel today. But this jury is representative of the community there, is it not?
WICK: Yes. You know, it is. I believe they pick most of them from the Mesa area, but, today, I wanted to bring this up quickly if I can, Dr. Drew. The middle juror was really -- when they put up the note about Travis that Jodi left at the memorial, the middle juror was writing verbatim, looking up writing, looking up writing, every single detail on that letter. I think it really spoke to the jury --
PINSKY: We will see what that -- how that plays out, what it means. Thank you, Katie. Thank you, Stacey.
FAIRRINGTON: Thank you.
PINSKY: Next up, a former NYPD police officer allegedly plotted to torture, rape, cook, cannibalize up to 100 women, including his own wife. The bizarre trial is unfolding now. We have the latest. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Sexual fetishes, torture, and cannibalism. It`s a real-life story that makes "50 Shades of Grey" read like a nursery rhyme. The former NYPD cop reportedly planned to bring his violent fantasies to life like torturing, raping, and then eating his female victims, allegedly including his wife, but attorneys for the former officer insists he never intended to live out these deviant, deadly fetishes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Did this so-called "cannibal cop," that`s right, cannibal. Did he plan to carry out -- that`s unbelievable -- did he plan to carry out these unthinkable acts or was it just a fetish or was he blowing off steam? I`m back with Laura Baron, our co-host this week.
BARON: So, Drew, is there something like cannibal lite where he just thinks about it but doesn`t do it, like doesn`t eat the face?
PINSKY: I`m looking at my diet soda. I don`t know. What would the can look like is what I`m saying? It feels weird to even joke about this, but it`s so bizarre you can`t help but lighten it up with something. Well, with us attorney and radio host, Lisa Wexler. She`s been following the story. Lisa, you`re a wife, you`re a mom --
LISA WEXLER, ATTORNEY: Hi, Dr. Drew. Hi, Laura.
PINSKY: Hey, Lisa. Thanks for joining us.
BARON: Hi there.
PINSKY: Tell us how you`re processing this story and what the latest is.
WEXLER: Well, the latest was in court today. I wasn`t in court, but the reports are that three of the women that were on the list testified and also the wife testified. And the women were testifying about whether or not they felt threatened by any behavior, because they slightly knew this police officer.
But they said that they didn`t feel threatened. Personally, I don`t think that that`s relevant because there are a lot of people that go around doing horrible, heinous crimes that seem perfectly nice and natural during the day. You just have to see an old Alfred Hitchcock film to know that. What do I make of this? I think that it is bizarro. As a mother, as a wife myself, I could only imagine the horror.
After all, here`s a guy who dresses up as a police officer every single day, who goes out to fight the bad guys, who`s carrying a gun, and then you find like a Jekyll and Hyde character at night with this computer that he`s having fantasies of killing her, of killing a hundred women. He has their names and addresses. He`s a police officer, presumably, he has access to neighborhood information.
It`s scary and it`s frightening, and frankly, I think the wife is a hero. She ran away with a one-year-old. She turned him in. She contacted the other women on Facebook to say, hey, wait a minute, you could be a weird victim of this guy, my husband. And now, she`s willing to testify in open court. She`s a hero.
PINSKY: And Loni or Darren, does she need to establish some sort of intent to do this or is it enough that he showed up on websites where people talked about these things? And by the way, I imagine consumed images that were these people not out there consuming them -- in other words -
COOMBS: When you say consumed --
PINSKY: Well, I mean -- no, Jesus, you`re right. I beg your pardon.
KAVINOKY: Yes. Be careful with that one, Drew.
PINSKY: I beg your pardon.
KAVINOKY: And you`ve accused me of stepping over the line.
PINSKY: I lost it. Thank you, guys. But thank you for getting me back on track here. My question is this. Is it any different than somebody -- I was about to use that word again -- going out and seeking kiddie porn if they`re seeking cannibal whatever? Isn`t it the same kind of thing? Is that enough here?
WEXLER: I think it is the same kind of thing, and I think that that`s going to be the challenge for the defense to overcome that assumption. When we have heinous kind of fantasies, we have a precedent in the law.
KAVINOKY: But hang on, we don`t lock people up anticipatorily. We don`t lock people up because they`ve got fantasies. We require that certain actions be taken. And what -- from what`s been reported, there are certain crimes that he appears to be guilty of, for example, accessing confidential records using the police database for his own personal use, these kinds of invasion of privacy issues.
But in terms of this cannibalism bit, while it`s sensational, he took no actual action. And that`s ultimately what I think gives the defense some wiggle room.
COOMBS: You have to follow the law here, and the law is he`s charged with conspiracy to commit murder and cannibalism, and to commit conspiracy, you have to do more than just mere planning and talking about it. You actually have to take some overt actions towards it. And that remains to be seen. The wife actually did talk about how he was actually asking her what her running route was, were there people around there, what time she was going.
So, he might have been doing a little more than just talking about it. He might have actually taken some acts toward actually accomplishing it. But Dr. Drew, this is very reminiscent to me. I actually had an interview with the detectives who investigated the Jeffrey Dahmer case. And they said when he finally started talking to them, it was almost like he was sharing a cookbook with them, talking about kind of the different recipes he`d tried out. Yes. And it was --
PINSKY: I`ve got somebody to deal with Twilight zone patients. It`s Michelle. Michelle, do you have any experience talking to these kinds of folks? I went online and looked into it a little bit, and the people I saw who were into this were really bizarre, really chilling.
WARD: I didn`t even realize this was real.
PINSKY: And my question was, do you think he`s one of those guys, or do you think this is a guy that`s just angry and sort of acting out in strange ways or is this the real deal?
WARD: Well, first of all, I mean, I keep thinking, OK, in DSM or for you the physician`s desk reference, do we have a diagnosis for uber creepy, because that`s what this guy is. He`s uber creepy. I mean, his poor wife.
PINSKY: That`s the view.
WARD: I know. And I like creepy. This is the thing. He is -- maybe he wasn`t going to act out on this. Does it matter? The bigger story here is this guy has these thoughts and these impulses. And there`s some thought about where these impulses come from. Is it subcortical? Can it be controlled?
WARD: But you can`t prosecute someone on a thought crime, but you can with conspiracy if you have someone else -- and Loni is absolutely right about that. If you have someone else agreeing to do it and there`s one furtherance. I did a conspiracy case this summer, and the guy was convicted on a lot less than this.
WEXLER: Talking can convict on conspiracy. I think that Darren would agree with me. Talking for a lot of rico crimes, for a lot of other kinds of organized crime, talking is enough.
PINSKY: Well, not only that, again, I don`t understand why he likes consuming -- like going after kiddie porn. You --
PINSKY: You`re creating a demand for horrible stuff, so people produce this stuff and then you -- I don`t know, I think this is egregious. And the guy carries a gun. He`s a cop. All right. Listen --
WARD: And he`s in a position of power.
KAVINOKY: But this is not about his fitness as a law enforcement officer. That`s an entirely different thing, and certainly, there the kinds of material he likes to consume is highly relevant. And who knew --
PINSKY: No. We have to wait staff --
KAVINOKY: Who knew that the phrase to protect and to serve would be a cookbook.
PINSKY: To serve. Thank you, Darren.
PINSKY: Be right back.
PINSKY: A reminder that we`ll be here tomorrow and Thursday, continuing our coverage with our great panels of the Jodi Arias case. I`m back with my co-host, Laura Barron. Laura, I`ll read something to you.
The so-called cannibal cop`s wife testified that her husband was targeting at least 100 women and that his online chats revealed he wanted to, quote, here we go, "burn them alive," adding quote, "he talked about devising an apparatus so the girls could be on the spit for 30 minutes shifts and be taken down so they would live longer."
Michelle, I know you love people like this, but I`m going to go out to Darren and Lonnie. Isn`t that enough to sort of have somebody take notice? I understand he didn`t do anything, but isn`t that enough?
BARON: Right. Agreed.
KAVINOKY: Better than she go to waste, Drew. After all, there`s kids starving in Africa. Come on.
PINSKY: There you go again.
COOMBS: I don`t think the jury is going to necessarily care.
PINSKY: And Lisa, you`re going to keep following this, right?
WEXLER: Yes. I`m going to keep following this case. I have to tell you, the scariest tidbit is that this website has over 30,000 followers worldwide. 30,000 other sickos and creeps. That is --
PINSKY: OK. Michelle, I want you to go and check out those websites. I want you to watch that video. There`s a video here of a Japanese fellow who is really into this stuff. It will give you sort of a more clinical sense of where these people are at, who they are, and where they`re hiding. I`ll be talking to you about --
BARON: And then have a nice evening, Michelle.
PINSKY: Well, Michelle likes this stuff. So, all right. I got to say goodbye to my great panels, my great guests. Thanks to all of you. Thank you for watching. Thank you for calling. And just reminder, "Nancy Grace" begins -- thank you, Laura - NANCY GRACE right now.