Return to Transcripts main page
AROUND THE WORLD
Benedict Spends Final Hours As Pope; Priests' Celibacy Debated; Dennis Rodman Visits North Korea; French Model's Blackface Shoot; Interview with Cardinal McCarrick
Aired February 27, 2013 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Joe Johns. And thank you for watching as well. Stay tuned now for AROUND THE WORLD.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Suzanne Malveaux.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Michael Holmes.
MALVEAUX: Welcome to AROUND THE WORLD. Here's what's happening right now.
HOLMES: In Italy, it hasn't happened in hundreds of years. The faithful filling St. Peter's Square and beyond to say farewell to a living pope. We've got a live report from the Vatican as reports of a scandal continue to explode in the media.
MALVEAUX: And in Switzerland, a shooting. At least two people killed, seven wounded, but still no answers in what made a gunman open fire at a lumber plant and then take his own life.
HOLMES: And in Mexico, more than two million animals slaughtered to try to contain bird flu. What it means for the food your family eats. We've got that report coming up as well.
MALVEAUX: But we begin in Vatican City, where Pope Benedict XVI is spending his last full day as pope. Today he delivered his last public speech. Tens and thousands of people crowded in St. Peter's Square just to get a glimpse of him and to hear what he had to say.
HOLMES: A huge turnout. The pope recalling moments of joy and light during his last eight years leading the church, but he said there were difficult times as well, which he said, quote, "seemed like the Lord was sleeping."
MALVEAUX: The pope also talked about his resignation, calling it a tough decision to make.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE BENEDICT XVI: I will continue to accompany the church with my prayers and I ask each of you to pray for me and for the new pope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: After the speech, the pope greeted crowds in his Popemobile. Tomorrow he's actually going to met with cardinals who will elect his successor. And, of course, he's then going to take a chopper to the papal summer residence outside of Rome.
Our chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, joins us now from Rome.
Good to see you, Christiane. Still going after many hours of live reporting too. She's a trooper, Christiane. Now, the details about how the pope will live his life out, pretty fascinating to people. It's going to be a very different life. Tell us what it's going to be like after tomorrow for him.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You're absolutely right because these are, we've said it many times but it just happens to be true, uncharted waters. You know the last time this happened was 600 years ago. And nobody quite knows what it's going to be like to have a pope emeritus, Benedict XVI after tomorrow, and then a new pope elected sometime, people expect, before holy week, which begins on Palm Sunday, March 24th.
So this is what's going to happen. He is, in the interim, going to leave here, the Vatican, tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. local time, and head to the summer residence. The traditional papal summer residence, which is called Castel Gandolfo. And there we are told he will stay for at least a couple of months while the logistics are completed and the decoration and renovation of this convent here in Vatican City, where he will live out his remaining years. Also, of course, to try to put some distance between him as pope emeritus and the whole election process for the new pope. So those are the basic bare details of what we know.
We do know that his private secretary will continue to minister to him and live with him in that convent that he will end up in. But also, because he is prefect of the papal household, he will also continue to adjust and to organize the private meetings of the new pope. So there's an area of sort of cross-pollination, so to speak. One man working for two popes. That will be interesting. And, of course, there's so many challenges and issues to deal with for the next pope.
MALVEAUX: And, Christiane, tell us about the process here. There's going to be a college of cardinals who are going to be meeting to vote for the new pope. Tell us about the transition. How will they do that? How will we know that we have a new pope? And is there going to be a period where there is no pope?
AMANPOUR: Yes, there is a period where there's no pope, and that starts precisely at 8:01 p.m. tomorrow night. The pope leaves and ends his papacy at 8:00 p.m. local time and then they have (INAUDIBLE), the empty seat.
Now, right at that moment is when the Vatican sends out all the messages to get all the cardinals here to Rome. Most of them are here anyway. But nonetheless, that formality of gathering them all here in Rome to start talking about the future.
They're expected to have their first big meeting of all the cardinals on Monday, which will be March 4th. And then they'll decide what date to call the conclave. The conclave, of course, the election body, really, for the next pope. And only the cardinals of election age are able to take part. Those who are under 80.
So that will take place sometime after Monday. We'll know when the conclave is called. And then it's anybody's guess as to how long that conclave will take to finally come up with a consensus candidate as the next pontiff. It has to have two-thirds of people in the conclave voting for it. And then, of course, you know if they don't come up with it, there's black smoke. If they do come up with a decision, it's the white smoke from that chimney in St. Peter's.
MALVEAUX: All right, Christiane, thank you very much. I remember the last go around, waiting for the color of the smoke to see if we had a new pope or not, right?
HOLMES: Yes, I think they vote four times a day. They just keep going. Keep them locked up until they get a --
MALVEAUX: Keep going until they finally get somebody.
HOLMES: Yes, and they give up and elect someone.
All right, joining us now from New York, the Reverend James Martin, a Jesuit priest, also contributing editor of the Catholic magazine "America."
MALVEAUX: So, we want to ask you here, because the church, of course, has been hit by several scandals recently. One involving Cardinal Keith O'Brien, the archbishop of Scotland. He has been accused of inappropriate behavior with priests. An opinion piece in "The New York Times" is blaming a lot of the sex scandals in the church based on the rules of celibacy. Why don't you give him a quote, because this is really quite interesting.
HOLMES: Yes, well, a quote from the article for you. I want to just read this to you first. Columnist Frank Bruni says this. "The church leaders preach a purity that its own clerics can't maintain. They cast stones, and are so very far from blameless." He goes on, "but before we range across that sadly familiar terrain, let's give a moment's thought to loneliness. And longing. And this: the pledge of celibacy that the church requires of its servants and is an often cruel and corrosive thing. It runs counter to human nature. It asks too much."
MALVEAUX: So, father, tell us, do you think that it asks too much? Would things be better if priests, the church, allowed those not to be celibate and that celibacy rule was instead (ph) revoked?
REV. JAMES MARTIN, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "AMERICA" MAGAZINE: Well, those are two different questions. I think there have been some cardinals who have talked about married priests, and we have married priests within the catholic church, former Anglican priests. But Frank Bruni's piece, nothing against Frank Bruni, but I thought that was a really idiotic piece. Celibacy does not lead to pedophilia. You know, there's a lot of sexual abuse within families, but no one says that marriage leads to sexual abuse. There's a lot of sexual abuse within schools, but no one says that being a teacher leads to sexual abuse. I think it was kind of a ridiculous article and kind of offensive, actually.
You know, I'm a celibate male. I'm not a pedophile. I'm not attracted to kids. And so one thing does not lead to the other. And I think that kind of stuff needs to be rejected.
MALVEAUX: Father, I think one of the points that he was making, I mean I agree with you certainly. But I think one of the point that he was making here was that he was talking about the loneliness, the lonely life that priests live and that they turn to other men, grown men, who are inside the priesthood for comfort and even for sexual intimacy. Do you believe that that is necessarily connected? That to be forced into this life of celibacy could turn and lead somebody to turning to another male in the priesthood for that kind of intimacy?
MARTIN: No, I think it's ridiculous. I mean, you know, if you -- you know, certainly loneliness is a part of the priests' lives. Loneliness is part of a lot of peoples' lives who are single, who are celibate. I mean if you have someone who's an elderly person who lives down the street, you know, who might be lonely, you don't say that they're going to be a pedophile or they're going to suddenly, you know, act inappropriately sexually. So I think it's a real misunderstanding of what celibacy is. I mean, you know, you have great celibate people like Francis Avasezi (ph), Mother Teresa, Jesus, and no one looks at them and says they are acting inappropriately. So I think you really can't connect the two.
HOLMES: A lot of people obviously have had difficulty with it. We've seen that in some of the scandals. I'm curious, just walk us through the life. I mean how difficult is it? Or is it not?
MARTIN: Well, I mean, you know, there are difficulties with it. There are difficulties with marriage, too. I mean, that's not always a bed of roses either. You know, a celibate person, a healthy celibate person has to have close friends. They have to have people that they can open themselves up to. They have to enjoy their work. It's a different way of loving, basically.
It's not for everybody. I think that's kind of one of the mistakes that people seem to make. We don't say that it is for everybody, but it is for some people. And it -- you know, and it is for me and I'm very happy. And I'm certainly not lonely. I have tons of friends. So I think that was really a kind of misinformed article. And I really object to the linking of celibacy with pedophilia.
MALVEAUX: I want to bring up, this is a well-known popular priest. This is Alberto Cutie. He left the church after he -- his secret relationship with a woman was actually exposed by the tabloids. And he talked about the celibacy rule. This was on "Piers Morgan Tonight." I want you to hear what he said when he weighed in on this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. ALBERT CUTIE, EPISCOPAL PRIEST: Most of us secular priests may not be called to lifelong celibacy and I think it's, you know, on the issue of homosexuality, it's horrible to see that homosexual persons are being told that their sexuality isn't principally (ph) disorder, while we know that homosexuality is alive and well among many of the clergy. So how is it that this institution condemns homosexual persons and their sexual expressions, yet they allow or cover up homosexuality within their own ranks? That's a big problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Father, how do you -- how do you see it? I mean the hypocrisy he's addressing inside of the catholic church.
MARTIN: Well, I mean, it's like saying that because some marriages end in divorce, that all marriages are hypocritical. I mean I think, you know, to kind of look at a few cases, and, you know, certainly pointing to the sexual abuse cases, which were real crimes, and to say that all priests therefore live that way is ridiculous. I mean it's like saying, look, I have this friend who got divorced, therefore everyone who is in a married life is a hypocrite. So I mean --
HOLMES: I don't think he's saying that everyone is. I mean it's saying that it does exist and, in some claims are widespread, the report allegedly given by the cardinals to the pope talking about basically gay clubs of priests.
MARTIN: Well, yes, I don't know what you mean by gay clubs. I mean I would say there are certainly gay clergy. You know, I know a lot of priests, you know, who are gay, but they're also celibate. I think one of the other misconceptions is that somehow being gay, you know, and being a priest means that you cannot be celibate, which is also ridiculous. So I just think there's so much misinformation going on out there and we have to sort of celebrate celibacy from homosexuality, from pedophilia, from athevaphilia (ph), from breaking your vows. And I think it's getting all kind of lumped together, unfortunately, by people who, you know, as in this "New York Times" op ed, don't seem to know what they're talking about.
HOLMES: And certainly a broad brush is a dangerous thing. Appreciate your time, Reverend. Reverend James Martin.
MALVEAUX: It is --
MARTIN: My pleasure.
MALVEAUX: It is getting very complicated and confusing. I mean you do have to separate all the different issues. But the fact that we are doing this, that we have to separate all the issues, address the hypocrisy inside of the roman catholic church.
MALVEAUX: Because there, you know, there are certain rules and they say, you know, this is OK -- it's not OK for you --
MALVEAUX: And yet this is taking place behind closed doors within the leaders of the church.
MALVEAUX: I mean that's the main issue.
HOLMES: I -- yes, I totally agree. And then, you know, the reverend's argument too that, you know, you can't use too much of a broad brush. I mean what's happening there doesn't mean that it's everywhere. So, yes, you're right, it's a difficult one.
MALVEAUX: And we want to get to the truth.
HOLMES: Yes. Yes.
MALVEAUX: Hopefully with the next pope, we're going to get to the truth here.
MALVEAUX: Christiane Amanpour, she's going to be back in about 20 minutes or so with her interview with Cardinal Theodore McCarick (ph). He's going to shed some light on the highly secretive process by which these catholic leaders choose the new pope. All of this as new allegations of a sprawling sex scandal loom over the church.
And, well, meanwhile, military officials in Afghanistan want to make something pretty clear. They say they can't truthfully say they are winning the war. They're talking about a mistake. Basically some bad math in a military report that wrongly showed that violent attacks in Afghanistan were down in 2012.
MALVEAUX: They actually weren't. And here's the problem. NATO has been justifying the troop drawdown from Afghanistan with stats that show that the country is less violent now. Well, now the new fixed report says the number of deadly attacks has not changed much and actually the drawdown plan calls for the majority of U.S. troops to leave Afghanistan this year.
HOLMES: All right. Dennis Rodman --
MALVEAUX: This is one of our favorite stories --
HOLMES: This is (INAUDIBLE) or isn't it? He might not seem like the most natural choice for an athlete turned diplomat (INAUDIBLE).
MALVEAUX: That's right, but North Korea, well, they disagree here. The former basketball star, he's known, of course, for his eccentric appearance, his antics, all that stuff. But he has now teamed up with a group that is pretty much, you know, classic American. We're talking about the Harlem Globetrotters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): It could be the most breathtaking event in North Korea since the company literally went nuclear. Dennis Rodman, all nose (ph) studs (ph) and sun glasses, arriving for a bit of unofficial do no harm diplomacy.
DENNIS RODMAN, FMR. PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER: We got invited and we just come over and having some fun and hoping that, you know, there will be some fun.
MALVEAUX: For a chance to wear his cobalt blue track pants and Ralph Lauren Polo cap, in a country that officially bans, well, lots of cool stuff, usually including American tourists.
CHARLES ARMSTRONG, DIR., CTR. FOR KOREAN RESEARCH AT COLUMBIA UNIV.: You could say that exposing North Korea to Americans gets them away from this relentless propaganda of the evil American imperialists and shows them that Americans are just normal human beings, although it's hard to say Dennis Rodman is exactly a normal human being.
MALVEAUX: In this case, he's TV talent for an HBO series special being produced by Vice Media. Rodman and his hoops delegation are not the first Americans to enter North Korea. Eric Schmidt of Google got in. Laura Ling stumbled across the border, only be held and then released. The New York Philharmonic Orchestra tried to lull the not so democratic People's Republic with a bit of musical diplomacy. Way back when, there was Mohamed Ali.
WILL BULLARD, HARLEM GLOBETROTTER: We've been over 121 countries around the world in the past 87 consecutive seasons of the Harlem Globetrotters traveling around. So, I mean, we love every place that we go. Everyone accepts us for who we are.
MALVEAUX: Who they are is the Harlem Globetrotters, touring hot spots as goodwill ambassadors.
BULLARD: We're going to show them what we do. And being Harlem Globetrotters, a lot of magic with the basketball and a lot of wizardry.
MALVEAUX: And a retired NBA phenom, equally astounding as a fashion icon.
RACHEL NICHOLS, NEW YORK: Dennis is Dennis. He'll do anything. We've certainly seen that. And as someone said to him, hey, you want to go to North Korea. And he said, sure, absolutely. When was the last time that Dennis Rodman was relevant? It's been a while. So it's a way for a guy like Dennis Rodman, who has a clothing line, who is a business person, to be able to be relevant in the marketplace again.
MALVEAUX: What does Kim Jong-un, still taunting his American enemy, gain by letting Rodman and his buddies worm their way into his rigged, militaristic state?
ARMSTRONG: Well, the Harlem Globetrotters get a coup (ph). You know, the first American basketball team to visit this very isolated country. And the North Korean regime, it has to be said, gets some PR by having this visit.
NICHOLS: I think it's the fulfilling of a childhood fantasy, the 10- year-old basketball crush kind of guy.
So, here's a guy who had probably a poster of Dennis Rodman on his wall at one point, or whatever the North Korean equivalent of that is.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Yeah, he's pretty cool. You had wrestlers in Iran last week that we covered.
What do you make of this? Do you think they are using him or do you think it's a good thing?
HOLMES: I think they totally are. I think a guy like Rodman goes to North Korea, he's not going to go out and meet the people. He's not going to be meeting any people. He's going to be meeting the leadership and I don't know.
Personally, I think it's a bit of a propaganda tool. It's different to that wrestling thing we did in Iran where you can see sport ...
MALVEAUX: (Inaudible) camaraderie.
HOLMES: Yeah, and diplomacy coming from that perhaps. Yeah.
MALVEAUX: All right.
MALVEAUX: Coming up, skin color, is it a fashion statement? Pretty controversial here, photos and a magazine, they're going viral.
They show a model in "blackface." Now, we're going to take a look at what all of this means.
MALVEAUX: Here are the stories making news around the world right now.
In Calcutta, India, a tragedy, a fire swept through a paper and a plastic market, killing at least 18 people.
HOLMES: Yeah, this is a building that also had apartments where people were sleeping when the fire broke out.
The BBC spoke to officials who say the building had only one exit and did not have adequate fire safety measures in place.
MALVEAUX: To Paris now, that is where the new top U.S. diplomat is today. This is Secretary of State John Kerry and his official welcome by the French president, Francois Hollande. He's there to talk mainly about Syria and the work that the U.S. and France are doing together to end the civil war there.
Well, later today, Kerry travels to Rome and he is on a nine nation trip.
HOLMES: An American couple who disappeared while on a bike trek through Peru has reportedly been spotted. Peru's top tourism official says Jamie Neal and Garret Hand were seen in a remote part of the Amazon in a small boat heading up the river.
MALVEAUX: But Hand's mother says she's not going to believe this until she hears directly from her son. She wants to get some sort of proof that he is alive.
She hasn't heard from the couple in a month and she says she hasn't accessed their banks accounts. They haven't even accessed their bank accounts since then.
The 25-year-olds, they are from the San Francisco-area, have been posting their adventures on Facebook.
HOLMES: Yeah, those posts, though, they stopped in late January and calls to their cell phones went unanswered.
The tourism ministry in Peru says it will shoot video of the couple and provide proof that they're doing OK when they catch up with them.
MALVEAUX: All right. Welcome back to "Around the World."
A 16-year-old model, well, her spread in a French magazine, it is causing quite a bit of controversy here. This is "Numero" magazine, featured her as an African queen, but check it out.
HOLMES: Yeah, you can see here there, covering her pale skin, head to toe, with brown makeup.
Alina Cho joins us now from New York.
MALVEAUX: So, Alina, tell us about why did this happen? Could they not find an African-American, an African model to play an African queen?
ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is one of the big questions, is why didn't they just cast a black model for this spread.
I can tell you a little bit about this model, Suzanne. Her name is Ondria Hardin. She's believed to be just 16-years-old. She is one of the hottest models right now. In fact, I just learned that she's about to appear in a big campaign for Mark Jacobs.
But it is that spread in France's "Numero" magazine that is getting a lot of attention, a lot of criticism.
We want to show you what she looks like without the dark makeup so you can imagine the outrage.
On the blogs, one black model wrote, "Can I see a black girl do Scandinavian princess, please?" Another wrote, "Googled her name and this girl is alabaster."
And, finally, "Why hire a black model when you can just paint a white one?"
Now, "Numero" magazine insists that there was no intent to offend, adding that the photographer, Sebastian Kim, is actually known for this kind of work.
"Numero" said in a statement, "'Numero' has always supported the artistic freedom of the talented photographers who work with the magazine to illustrate its pages and has not taken part in the creation process of this editorial."
Now, just a couple of minutes ago, we got a statement from a rep for photographer Sebastian Kim, released this statement saying in part, "It was never my intention to portray a black woman in this story. We wanted a tanned and golden skin to be showcased as part of the beauty aesthetic."
And he added, "I believe that the very unfortunate title, 'African Queen,' which I was not aware of prior to publication, did a lot to further people's misconceptions and I wholeheartedly apologize to anyone who was offended."
But it does beg the question, Suzanne, why not hire just a black model for this editorial spread?
You know, I just finished covering New York fashion week. It is true. Diversity is a big problem on the runways. In fact, Jezebel reports that 82 percent of all models working during New York fashion week were white.
Take a look at that pie chart there. Of the remaining 18 percent, just 6 percent were black.
MALVEAUX: Did the model -- did she speak out at all? Did she say how she felt about this or whether or not she suspected that there'd be any controversy over it?
CHO: No, she didn't. We've been trying to reach out to her through her agency. So far we haven't had any luck.
But I did speak, Suzanne, just this morning, with the CEO of the Council of Fashion Designers of America, Steven Kolb. He said, yeah, it would be great if there was more diversity on the runways, but you really have to ask the question, what is the pool of talent?
You know, he also spoke to that "African Queen" spread and he said that he doesn't believe that it was meant to mock, but he does call it creative -- a bad creative direction and agreed, yes, it would have been better just to hire a black model.
HOLMES: Yeah, and it's interesting, too. This is not the first time that this has happened, has it? This sort of "blackface" thing?
CHO: Not by a long shot. If you look at the editorial work over the years, it's not the first time "Numero" has done this either, Michael.
Back in 2010, the magazine used Caucasian model Constance Jablonski to portray an African mother, complete with dark face paint and an afro. Also in 2010, super model Claudia Schiffer posed for Karl Lagerfeld, also in dark makeup and an afro wig.
In 2006, Kate Moss posed for "The Independent," wearing nothing -- as you can see there -- but black paint covering her face and body.
I do think it's important to point out, though, that Italian "Vogue" recently did devote an entire issue to black models. It was really, really well received in the industry. It got a lot of attention. It sold out, as a matter of fact.
But it's just one example and I think, when we see things like this, it is just a reminder that there needs to be more diversity on editorial pages and on the runways in New York, Paris, Milan and London.
MALVEAUX: All right. Amen to that.
HOLMES: Yeah, thanks, Alina.
MALVEAUX: Thank you, Alina.
Coming up, more than two million animals slaughtered to try to contain bird flu. What it means for the food that your family is eating. This is out of Mexico, up next.
HOLMES: hello, everyone. We want to welcome our CNN International viewers who are watching us from around the world.
A historic day at the Vatican ...
MALVEAUX: Pope Benedict the XVI spending his last day as pope. He steps down tomorrow.
Christiane Amanpour is in Rome. She is joined by American cardinal, Theodore McCarrick.
And, Christiane, please, go forward. Tell us what he thinks of this very special day.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly what I'll do.
We've been longing to hear perspective from the cardinals and, indeed, a cardinal, most particularly, who was there this morning and who has so much history with this Catholic Church and who was part of the conclave back in 2005 when Pope Benedict the XVI himself was elected. This is a noisy evening. We are very close to a hospital and we can hear the ambulances going by, so I'll let that go by before I start and turn to the cardinal.
Cardinal McCarrick, welcome to our program. Thank you for joining us.
CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, ARCHBISHOP EMERITUS OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: It's a great privilege. You're one of the best.
AMANPOUR: You are so kind.
You were there in St. Peter's Square this morning.
MCCARRICK: I was. I was.
AMANPOUR: What was your reaction to what really is an unprecedented event, at least in our modern history?
MCCARRICK: Exactly. The last would have happened 600 years ago and I'm sure they didn't have that kind of a crowd.
So, the Holy Father was really saying farewell and he said it very beautifully.
He's a man of great courtesy and great culture and it was that kind of a presentation.
He thanked everybody.