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Was Jodi "Into It"?; Mental Illness and Addiction
Aired February 27, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): On the show tonight, day four of the Jodi Arias cross-examination.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You did enjoy dressing up for him, right?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: Yes.
PINSKY: The explicit text messages you haven`t heard.
MARTINEZ: You start out by saying, "Oh, my gosh, this is so freaking hot." We`re talking about his (EXPLETIVE DELETED), right?
PINSKY: The graphic photos you haven`t seen. And the racy testimony you won`t believe.
MARTINEZ: "Oh, yes. I want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you like a dirty horny little schoolgirl," right?
PINSKY: And later, fired for having premarital sex. A single teacher lost her job when she got pregnant. She joins me for an exclusive interview.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Joining us for tonight`s show and also welcome to awful you tonight, my co-host for the week, Laura Baron.
Laura, here we go. There`s more and more of Jodi Arias.
We also have criminal defense attorney and author of "Mistrial." It`s out in April. Mark Geragos.
Mark, good evening.
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Drew.
PINSKY: And psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
And we thought we had heard everything about the graphic sexual exchanges between Jodi and Travis.
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: Crazy.
PINSKY: Yes, wait, Laura, there`s more. And this time, she`s not crying when she listens and reads and hears all this material.
BARON: Oh, no.
PINSKY: Maybe we are finally.
PINSKY: And a reminder, a warning, this stuff is not for children. Be careful. This material is explicit.
Here we go.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ARIAS: KY, you just spread it on as you need it and you just keep sliding around. You remember the first time that you and I grinded at Ehrenberg. And it goes like, I ended up just (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and you were like whoa I (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and we (EXPLETIVE DELETED) at the same time I looked around (EXPLETIVE DELETED) all over. It was so hot.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: It was because it was fun, right?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ARIAS: Do you remember that time I came to visit you when I was still working in California and I fell asleep on your chair next to your bed and you just woke me up by pulling my pants off and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) my (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I remember that was hot.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: You said you woke me up by pulling my pants off and licking my (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
MARTINEZ: You actually called him "Hottie Biscotti", correct?
MARTINEZ: This is you sending him this text message, right?
MARTINEZ: "If you`re a lucky boy and you promise to give me a good well-deserved spanking maybe you could give my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) a too much-needed pounding too. Kidding." Correct?
MARTINEZ: And then you said, "Oh, yes. I want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you like a dirty horny little schoolgirl," right?
MARTINEZ: You did enjoy dressing up for him, right?
PINSKY: This is a woman fighting for her life and smiling and looking gleeful about explicit material that made her cry just weeks -- just days ago.
BARON: It`s almost like she`s also enjoying making this prosecutor have to talk about all of these dirty little things.
PINSKY: Yes. And they`re her words, and these are things that the jury is using to judge her.
Let`s go straight out to "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas.
Beth, what do you think the prosecutor was trying to do there with all that sex tape and text messaging?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: We spent days listening to her explain al of the same stuff in terms of how degrading it was to her, how she engaged in conduct she really didn`t want to engage in, and now, the prosecutor --
KARAS: -- is challenging her on that. You know what? She initiated it. Can I just tell you one other thing she said to him in a text message we saw today after he sent her a photo of his penis?
She said, "Oh, my gosh, that is so freaking hot. I want to lick it up and then sit on it. You are so tasty. My goodness."
KARAS: And there was more.
I mean, this is a woman -- these are text messages not seen before today. This is a woman who was initiating it. Was she a victim of sexual persecution? The state says no way.
PINSKY: Now, Mark, you were sort of critical yesterday of the prosecutor. Do you feel the same way today?
I think he was listening to you yesterday. He backed off a little bit. I thought he was kind of nicer today.
BARON: He did. He definitely did.
GERAGOS: Yes, he absolutely dialed it back today. Yesterday, he was so over the top. I didn`t even understand where he was going and what he was doing. Today, I thought he was infinitely more effective.
Sometimes that happens. I mean, you get so hyped up. I understand it, being in one of these high-profile trials. You`re looking at it, you want to just decimate the defendant. But yesterday was just a bloodbath I thought for him.
Today, on the other hand, I thought he was a lot more effective. I think if he were to just kind of truncate this at this point and just get in, get out, and make some of his points, he`d be a lot better off. I just don`t think that the longer you keep her up there the better it is for the prosecution.
I -- my feeling is that you humanize her. She may be a liar and a repeated liar, but the fact that she`s up there and that the jury sees her and that if she connects with just one juror, at some level, at some visceral level, so that they don`t want to kill her, the defense has done their job and the prosecution`s helped them do it.
PINSKY: Mark, this woman is going after Travis with all this provocative material. I don`t think the defense did a very good job of making her the controlled, bullied victim. Do you?
BARON: I agree.
GERAGOS: Well, remember something, Drew. The defense -- you know, the old expression my father used to tell me, you can`t fight the facts. They were dealt a hand here that was not one of the best if you`re -- it was an uphill battle from the beginning. All they`re trying to do, and you and I discussed this at the beginning of the trial, all they`re trying to do in my humble opinion is save her life.
I think that they may effectively have saved her life. I -- my feeling is putting her up there, this is not -- at least so far, the prosecution I don`t think has gotten people to want to kill her. They won`t -- I mean, I don`t think the idea that she`s going to walk, or people keep saying, oh, you know, is this going to be a not guilty? That isn`t in doubt, I don`t think.
This is a mitigation. This is whether or not they`re going to give her the death penalty. And to that extent, I think the defense has been effective. And the prosecution, up until today, I don`t think has been effective.
PINSKY: Yes. I -- go ahead, Laura.
BARON: I agree. I thought yesterday Martinez was totally over the top. It seems like today, though, we see all of that smiling and her gamesmanship today. She seems way more manipulative now that he`s given space to really see who she is.
Do you agree?
GERAGOS: Yes, she`s -- I agree with that. Today she looks diabolical. If you want to put somebody to death, today it`s a lot more likely than it was yesterday.
PINSKY: And, Cheryl, do you think by giving her more time on the stand, the prosecution is giving her an opportunity to bond or find that one person who might connect on a visceral level?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew, I think that`s what they`re hoping for. But I don`t think that she`s helping them much with that because the smiling that she`s doing, how pleased with herself she seems to be, those are indications of contempt, of that duping delight that she`s basically, with her body language saying I`m enjoying having this position of power.
And I think she`s really kind of thinking to herself, I am putting one over on you, you`re an idiot. And it`s coming across in her non-verbal behavior.
BARON: It`s also coming across a little flirtatious, wouldn`t you say?
ARUTT: I think so, Laura. I do think so. I -- her sexuality has been such a base for her power with men. And if she can connect with men on a sexual level, and there are a lot of men on this jury, think I that if they can -- if she can titillate them with this, if she can excite them with this and get them to want her, I think that really is a way to play on the sympathies of the men on the jury --
PINSKY: I`ve got to interrupt, Cheryl. Mark, please back me up on this. Right here is where men and women divide on this woman. The more she`s up there, the creepier she gets to men and the more women get sympathetic and talk about her sexuality and --
BARON: Oh, she`s creepy.
GERAGOS: Drew, I was going to jump in and say, this woman today, she gives me the willies. And yesterday I could understand that. Today was a whole different issue.
PINSKY: It`s so fascinating --
ARUTT: But I`m talking about what she`s trying to do. I`m not saying she`s doing it.
BARON: Would you have dated her yesterday, Mark?
GERAGOS: I don`t know that I would have dated her. But remember what you`re asking them to do. Remember as a defense lawyer, what you`re looking to do here.
You`ve got a predominantly, if I`m not mistaken, a predominantly male jury. So, all you`re looking to do is find one or two males there, and preferably two because they can kind of back each other up on this jury in terms of --
PINSKY: Mark, every male is scrolling through the people they date when`d they were in their 20s going, oh, my God, oh, my God, he get me away from this woman, I hate her, I can`t stand her, right?
GERAGOS: I understand that, Drew. They`re maybe looking for that one guy who maybe thinks he`s got a shot.
PINSKY: I think they`d better put their mind on the one girl --
BARON: I think they found him on the shower.
PINSKY: Oh, jeez, oh, my goodness, you people.
OK, hang on there, buddy.
Thank you to Beth Karas.
Next up -- Laura, you behave yourself. Next up, you haven`t seen these pictures before. We are going to show you autopsy pictures with our friend there, Bill Lloyd. These are pictures not before shown on television, but I thought it was important to do so to give you a sense of the brutality of this murder and the sequence. It`s sort of laid out by these pictures.
And again, I don`t know why the prosecution is not focusing on that because when you think about it, it`s like -- it`s wild what she was doing to that poor man.
Later, fired for premarital sex. The Christian controversy brewing in California -- there she is -- fired because she got pregnant before she got married. Is that right? We`ll be talking about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: The 25-caliber handgun that your grandfather had according to him was like a toy gun, right?
MARTINEZ: How about the gun that you used to kill Mr. Alexander? How big was that gun?
ARIAS: It wasn`t very big.
MARTINEZ: It looked like a toy gun, right?
ARIAS: It looked like a real gun to me.
MARTINEZ: Well, and it could fit in your purse, couldn`t it?
ARIAS: If I removed some other items, it would fit.
MARTINEZ: So, the answer is yes, it could fit in your purse, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was the prosecutor attempting to link Jodi to the stolen gun.
Back with my co-host and all of you as well, Laura Baron.
Laura, I`ve got to tell you, during the break I was thinking about you and my --
PINSKY: -- voluptuous female colleagues talking about how sexual this woman is. And that`s -- the more she gets that way, the more men are recoiling.
PINSKY: And you guys are talking about it as flirtation. We talk about that as horror.
BARON: OK. We`re also talking about it as psycho. I mean, this does not feel like oh, my bestie, I want to go to summer camp with her and see like what notes we can compare.
PINSKY: No. This is somebody -- we heard her yesterday described as a zombie. We heard her as a chameleon. We hear her as empty.
PINSKY: And scary. And she really fits a profile of a common stalking -- or psychopathic stalker. We`ll talk about that as we go along here.
We`re going to show you now some images that I`ve been wanting to show for a while. Now, I`ve not been able to show you until now. They are very graphic.
As a physician I felt it was important to walk through this and also to give people a sense of the brutality of all this. You don`t get it by talking about it. You get it by seeing the path specimens, as we say.
And CNN --
BARON: Des that mean photos?
PINSKY: Photos, what we`re going to show. CNN`s Randi Kaye has been covering the trial and did a special report on what the pictures do in fact tell us.
She joins us, along with pathologist Dr. Bill Lloyd, who is our expert on post specimens.
Randi, now, can you tell us in what order Jodi is supposed to have inflicted these wounds on Travis?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure. Good evening.
Apparently, according to Jodi at least, she says that she shot Travis Alexander first. But the state, as you know, is not buying that. They believe that she had him in a very vulnerable position, bent down in the shower while they were taking some of these photos that were discovered and recovered on that digital camera. Bent down in the shower, vulnerable position, kneeling down, and that`s when she took a knife and stabbed him in the heart, right in the chest.
PINSKY: OK. Randi. I`ve got to stop you. I`ve got to stop you, Randi.
We`re looking at a picture. We first saw the hand which we`ve seen before. What we`re seeing now is a picture that`s not been shown on television which is Travis slumped in the bathtub dead, clearly dead. This is not a person who`s moving.
And my point and Dr. Lloyd, I want you to ring in on this too, I don`t see evidence of the throat wound in that picture. There`s no -- there would be blood everywhere even if that wound was given after death, or soon after death, wouldn`t you agree?
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Well, there`s two important points. One, his throat may have been slashed elsewhere in the apartment, and he bled out while being dragged back to the shower. And two, if the shower was running, a lot of the blood would have been washed down the drain.
And, Randi, what is alleged to have happened there? Is she alleging that she -- what? When did the throat cut occur?
BARON: So horrifying.
KAYE: After she had stabbed him about nine times in the back, he was apparently standing at the sink in the bathroom spitting up blood trying to get away from her she then got him down to the ground. She ended up dragging him or trying to drag him. And it`s at the threshold to the bedroom, not very far from that bathroom, where she apparently slit his throat. There was a lot of blood recovered, a pool of blood recovered in that very spot.
And then standing over him is when the state says that she actually shot him in the right temple and the bullet lodged in the left cheek.
PINSKY: And, Dr. Lloyd, you and I have talked about the angle of that bullet and the fact that there was not bleeding into the skull suggests that this was sort of a -- probably a superior position and something postmortem.
LLOYD: Yes. An important rule to remember is, if you`re not alive you`re not bleeding. So he already took the shot over the right brow, out to the left cheek. His heart wasn`t beating at this time. He had very little blood left in his body.
The autopsy confirmed the absence of blood, the absence of blood in his skull from the bullet track, and there was no tissue evidence of hemorrhage that would have happened from a gunshot wound like that if the - -
PINSKY: Now, Dr. Lloyd --
LLOYD: -- is still alive.
PINSKY: -- we`re looking at another picture that has never yet been seen. It`s a laceration on his scalp behind his right ear. And it`s a crazy slash. Like somebody wildly yielding a knife would do something like that.
And by the way, by the appearance of this, I would imagine this was somebody running away getting slashed in the head. Do you agree with that?
BARON: Why running away, Drew?
PINSKY: Just by -- I can`t imagine how she could get behind him and slash his scalp like that.
Do you agree, Dr. Lloyd?
LLOYD: This takes us -- this takes us back to the discussion of the defensive injuries. First, the active defensive injuries, don`t stab me, don`t stab me, and the knife cuts right in the web of the hand. And then he`s trying to protect himself with the cuts to the back of his hand, trying to protect his head.
During that, with a lot of motion of his arm, the knife could have come and glanced the back of the head. The clean edges to that wound suggest that it`s a laceration caused by a knife.
What`s also important, Drew, is this wasn`t discussed beforehand and it`s not until you get to the autopsy and you wash off the remains. You often discover many injuries that weren`t seen at the crime scene.
PINSKY: Randi, this makes me -- this is why I wanted to discuss this. And I -- it almost brings me to tears looking at how horrific this is.
PINSKY: And, Randi -- so I want to ask you two things, Randi. A, does this fit with what the state is alleging? And isn`t it important that people understand the brutality of what the jurors are looking at here and judging about?
BARON: I think so.
KAYE: Do the people in the court understand what happened here?
PINSKY: What I`m saying is --
KAYE: There was a truck going by. Sorry. I was trying to hear you.
PINSKY: Sorry. This is really what the jurors are seeing, are things like this. So, they`re going to get this full picture of how brutal, just how brutal -- I mean, it seems bizarre to me to be talking about the sex tapes and the texting and stuff like that. When you go actually to the events of that day and look at the sheer brutality of what went on.
BARON: It`s a monster.
KAYE: Well, they`re going to have to try to put this together. This is a woman who they`ve played all these sex tapes. They`ve played the phone sex. They`ve played -- they`ve shown the text messages and all the dirty talk between the two of them.
This is a woman who clearly, according to the state, has enjoyed this relationship, has enjoyed the sex with him and encouraged the sex with him. So, how they will make that leap to what happened that day? I mean, we`re talking 29 stab wounds, practically cut his head off with that knife in the end by slitting his throat. What happened that day?
She, of course, as you know, is saying it`s self-defense. But they`re going to have to --
PINSKY: No way.
KAYE: -- connect the dots and understand what happened.
PINSKY: -- that`s what I -- I don`t see how -- I`ve got to take a quick break. We`re going to keep this conversation going. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I did see Travis the day that he passed away. Two individuals that -- one wanted to take my life. The guy with the gun sort of succumb (ph) to her pressure I think because he was holding the gun at my forehead and I was on the ground on my knees. She was standing over Travis near him, and he was -- the guy with the gun was standing near me. He pulled the trigger, and nothing happened. Just a click.
I heard again a loud pop, and I was hit on the back of the head. Travis was on all fours on the tile, and he was -- well, I say all fours. But one of his hands was actually holding his head.
She was in the bathroom standing over Travis. And I charged her. And I pushed her as hard as I could. And she fell over him. He was sort of not crawling, but he was kind of moving and trying to stand up.
And I was able to get about halfway down the hallway when she came back at me and we struggled. She was doing what she could to overpower me. She was kicking me. They both began to argue about whether or not I should die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was an interview with Jodi Arias from 2008. Back with my co-host for the week, Laura Baron.
BARON: It`s unbelievable how emotional she could get in such a lie.
PINSKY: That`s what`s sort of disgusting about this. But for me nothing more shocking, more disturbing than these disturbing, graphic autopsy pictures that really tell the tale.
So, as a physician I thought it important to bring this back and help people understand just how brutal this was.
Randi, you`re covering this case. I haven`t heard your opinion yet on what you think -- how you think the prosecution is doing and how you think she`s being perceived by the court and the jury.
KAYE: Well, it`s so interesting. I mean, certainly, the prosecution has been criticized to some extent for going at her too hard. I think today in court, Juan Martinez, the prosecutor, pulled it back a little bit.
But as far as how she`s doing, I think she`s running this guy in circles. She pretends not to understand him, she goes back at him, she tries to confuse him. And I think what in the end is happening is she`s really confusing the jury, even though I know you`ve noticed this too because I`ve seen you talk about it on the show, how she`s sort of like a robot, how she answers everything to the jury like this and then she switches it back to the prosecution. I mean, it`s just so bizarre.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s bizarre. And then today the sense of this power over the courtroom that she seems to be expressing that we`re all pick up on.
I`ve got to take another quick break here. I`m going to get these pictures back for the panel to sort of talk about that day, the brutality and how this courtroom is receiving -- or how the jury is receiving this case. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest?
Yet, when we hear him in court saying that he never masturbated or (EXPLETIVE DELETED) before he met you, you`re saying you won`t believe that, right?
ARIAS: Based on what he said --
MARTINEZ: Yes or no?
ARIAS: -- to me, that would be no because he has (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
MARTINEZ: Yes or no?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Those are the many faces of Jodi Arias during this trial. Her emotions allegedly have run across many --
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: Her alleged emotions.
PINSKY: That`s right. The facial expressions are supposed to convey happy, sad, confident, crying. I don`t feel the connection to any real emotion very often.
BARON: I don`t either. The only time I see her smiling is when she`s in control of the information. Otherwise, she`s pretty stone-faced.
PINSKY: But then, it`s really an unpleasant sort of glee that she has. Mark, give me a brief description of crimes of passion and why this is not a crime of passion?
MARK GERAGOS, AUTHOR, "MISTRIAL": Well, if they`re looking to reduce this, to negate the malice, that`s you what you need for a murder, they`ve got ample evidence for a juror to hang their hat on. I think what they really are trying to do -- I don`t know that they expect a manslaughter out of this or a lesser.
I think what they are looking to do is to get a juror or two or maybe all to not want to kill her. And to that extent, I`m going to repeat myself here, I think the longer they keep her up there on this cross- examination, the worse it is for them. Drew, I will tell you, you may be a doctor, but from a strategic standpoint or a psychological standpoint, you`re, I think, showing of the autopsy photos is infinitely more effective in terms of the premeditation.
Them going in and starting to talk about her getting gas cans so that she wouldn`t have to buy gas on her way to Arizona, that`s effective. The finding of the gun or the reporting of the gun lost, that`s effective. Get in. This cross could have been done in three hours, in and out and enough with it. And then, leave all the rest of this histrionics for your closing argument. I don`t think the prosecution`s doing themselves any favors.
PINSKY: I am completely with you. And Dr. Lloyd, I mean, that`s why -- you know, as you and I know as physicians, you can`t really convey -- it`s like when we`re working with medical students, they have to see the specimens to really get the impact, visceral experiential impact of what the story is telling.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: If the jury is going to exercise justice in this case, then they have to have the totality of information. There has to be balance. But they need to see the photographs. They don`t need to see 30 copies of every wound, but they should be able to see the totality of injuries that this individual sustained to support the argument that this was not defensive at all.
PINSKY: OK. There he is alive and healthy. I would like to show him in the bathtub, if you guys could bring that picture forward for a second. And clearly dead. And let`s remind ourselves that he is hauled out of that bathtub by a woman who I guess was a bit heavier at the time. She`s lost weight, we are hearing, to be on the stand to look more -- weaker.
She hauled him out of there. And Dr. Lloyd there, were also stabs -- let`s see the leg wounds also, if you could show me that. There were leg wounds, back wounds, hand wounds. There are the leg wounds. I mean, she was stabbing him all over his body.
All right. Couple of technical points, Drew. On these autopsy photos, the body`s been washed. This man has been dead for nine days. So, the skin is what we say macerated. It has decomposed. I believe a lot of these things that we think may be interpreted as wounds are actually changes to the skin that has come from laying in a wet shower for nine days. I think --
PINSKY: OK. So, that`s modeling --
LLOYD: -- she dragged him into the shower.
PINSKY: Oh. Interesting. Modeling and maceration.
LLOYD: After nine days, the skin just falls off. Now, another technical point. I don`t think she dragged him out of the shower. I think she dragged him into the shower. They have hand -- bloody handprints of him in the hallway, and he looks bigger now. But, I think that`s just an issue, again, with decomposition.
Do we have something that control that image with? We sure do. We have photos of him in the shower. And in the shower, when he was still alive, he looked pretty buff. So. that inflated corpse that we see in the shower represents nine days of decomposition.
PINSKY: Got it.
BARON: So disturbing. Drew --
BARON: This is so over the top. She went so over the top on him. Do you think she was enjoying it at all?
PINSKY: My head can`t even go there, Laura. Just the fact that this woman was able to snap like that. Cheryl, just real quick, psychopathic stalking, when someone is in that state, and I`m postulating that she`s a psychopathic stalker, they can`t accept responsibility for what they`re doing. They disavow -- you`ve heard her do this on the stand, disavow that she`s capable of that kind of thing, and yet, there`s the evidence. That`s the evidence. That`s what she did. Cheryl.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: The evidence is there for psychopathic stalking and the vast majority of the time a psychopathic stalker is a man. Four out of five stalking victims are women. And yet, there are male stalking victims as well. You know, when we first started talking about this, I thought that she was more of a psychopathic kind of personality.
And then, as we discussed it, I started to come around to a point of view of maybe there`s more of a borderline kind of thing going on. I`m back to actually now a blend of psychopath and borderline. And I`m so curious about Mark, about why is it that a crime of passion is a mitigating circumstance? What is it about that that --
PINSKY: Let me just say, I`ll have to answer that because I`ve got -- because crime of passion does get a bit of a pass, but it has to happen like immediately, like he`s just to walk in on him with somebody and pow. That, I got to go break, Mark. Would that not be true?
GERAGOS: You got it, Drew. Today, you`re just quite the lawyer. You`re playing one on TV.
BARON: He`s a lawyer. He`s a doctor. He`s superman at night.
PINSKY: No, no. I`ve known some of the best since high school, Mark.
BARON: He does it all.
PINSKY: All right, guys. Thank you very much for this interesting conversation.
Next up my jury is back. We`re going to get their take on the cross- examination.
And later, a hard-working husband and a beautiful daughter, how a fairy tale marriage became a cannibalistic fantasy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you lie to the detective? Yes or no?
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you also lie to "48 Hours"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you lie to people in Utah?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you lie to Daniel Freeman (ph)?
ARIAS: Yes. Everyone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So, you lied to a lot of people, but you`re saying that just because you`re sitting here in this courtroom, there has been, for lack of a better term, a conversion and you`re now telling the truth, right?
ARIAS: For lack of a better term, yes.
PINSKY: Welcome back. It is time for "Dr. Drew`s Jury." I`m back with my co-host this week, relationship coach, Laura Baron. Joining us, our favorite Katie wick, our resident juror.
PINSKY: And back again, rapidly becoming a favorite, Stacey Fairington. Both were in court today. All right. Katie, as we just heard Jodi, lying, lying, admitting to that. What was the reaction in the courtroom?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Basically, today, the jury wasn`t taking a lot of notes at all, Dr. Drew. They were just listening, because obviously, we know she`s a lying -- she`s a liar. She`s lying about everything. I did see a few instances where they really started to take notes. The first one was when Martinez started talking about the rope.
Heads were down taking notes. The gas cans. Who knew that there was a third gas can? That was a news alert. And they really started paying a lot of attention on that. So, they were interested in that. So, that was interesting to see.
And also, I was sort of sitting behind Jodi`s mom and aunt today and when Juan Martinez and Jodi started going at it again and making kind of going back and forth as usual, I saw Jodi`s mom and aunt kind of look over and sort of giggle with each other. And you know, bless their hearts.
They`re going through a lot, too, Dr. Drew. But Jodi`s still smirking and I`m just curious if her attorneys are telling her to stop the smirking.
PINSKY: I would hope so. Laura -- now, Stacey, Laura had some concerns about Jodi`s wardrobe today. Laura, did --
BARON: Girls, tell me that that green shirt did not irritate you. I was like, please woman, we saw that you had 29 stabs in this dude. You are not green.
STACEY FAIRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Definitely not green. She just -- you know, it`s amazing to watch her just talk about this so cavalierly and also just with so much -- oh, but he was such a great guy, but then, I still needed to stab him and I still needed to shoot him. I mean, I`m still waiting for him to bring out Jodi, really, what did make you mad about him to kill him?
I mean, I can`t wrap my mind around still throughout this testimony exactly what has Travis done that has made you so mad to completely kill him like that?
PINSKY: So Stacey, I think I hear you saying your husband`s safe.
BARON: And he can take a shower.
FAIRINGTON: Every day. Yes. He`s perfectly safe. I`m not going after him.
PINSKY: Let`s talk to Ed in California. Ed -- well, hang on. Ed wanted to make a comment here. Ed, go right ahead.
ED, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just find it hard to believe she would drive all the way to Mesa, let herself be -- make it to his bed knowing there`s a loaded gun and a big knife at his disposal. What kind of person would do that, Dr. Drew?
WICK: Right. And the gun issue for me is ridiculous. OK, first of all, she says I never shot a gun in my life. OK, so, but you knew that Travis had a gun, supposedly, which we don`t believe is true anyways. So, he`s chasing after you.
You`re going to run up on his closet, which was really neat and organized, the shirts weren`t disturbed or anything when they went in after the crime, get a gun you don`t know is loaded, shoot it not knowing how to shoot. Any gun owner knows, mm-mm, especially when --
PINSKY: And by the way, no powder wound on his face. So, it was at a decent distance. Let`s get Brandy in Pennsylvania. Real quick, Brandy.
BRANDY, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. She said she wants to die. Why not just give her what she wants and deserves and give her that penalty and give Travis rest in peace?
PINSKY: I -- duly noted.
BARON: People are so upset about this, though. I mean, there`s something about her that just feels so monstrous.
PINSKY: Stacey, in the room, can you explain that?
FAIRINGTON: Well, I mean, I think it was -- you know, she said the other day when she tried to cut herself -- you know, to kill herself and it hurt so bad. And Juan said to her, can you imagine how it felt when you stabbed him with that knife in his heart?
FAIRINGTON: You know, Jodi, you know, you did it. You won`t do it to yourself because that`s how she is. She is very self-centered. She thinks about herself, how she feels. It`s all about Jodi. The whole show. All of it.
PINSKY: And she disavows -- she disavows the things she has done that aren`t consistent with what Jodi does. So, thank you, ladies.
Next up I`ve got a woman who alleges she was terminated because she engaged in premarital sex. She is here with us.
BARON: It`s ridiculous.
PINSKY: And later, more on the cop accused of plotting to kill and eat numerous women, including his wife. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Sacked for having premarital sex. That is the claim of a 29-year-old woman who says she was fired from her job at a Christian college when her supervisor learned she was pregnant.
TERI JAMES, ALLEGES PREMARITAL SEX LED TO FIRING: I feel like what San Diego Christian College did to me was hurtful and Unchrist-like.
PINSKY: And as the college fights back, alleging she sign and then shattered their, quote, "community covenant" by engaging in premarital sex. The woman`s attorney insists the school`s purity pledge is invalid because it`s illegal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): So, the question is does a private Christian college have the right to tell an unmarried staff member and students to abstain from sex? I`m back with this week`s co-host, Laura Baron. Also with us, we`ve got Teri James. She is the college staffer who was fired. And her attorney, Gloria Allred, joins us as well.
Thank you ladies for joining us. I just -- I think this is an outrageous story. But Teri, you`re due in June. You lost your job. What impact has this had on your life?
JAMES: It`s had a huge impact on my life. I mean, I was single, and I`m -- you know, I`m in my late 20s. And I have supported myself, you know, for a long time. And it took away my health insurance, my income, and pretty much like my community and my livelihood. So, it`s just had a huge impact.
PINSKY: Well, let me zero in. Teri, you`re a Christian person, right? You feel --
PINSKY: -- deeply connected to your faith and your community.
JAMES: Yes, I do.
PINSKY: And here, you`re being cast out. You`re being excommunicated in a way. I mean, not fully but --
PINSKY: And you signed this thing called the college`s community covenant. I want to read a little bit about what some of the behaviors that are banned, this according to this covenant. Also off limits, jealousy. God forbid if you feel jealous. Lust, sexually immoral behavior --
BARON: How do you even keep track of this stuff?
PINSKY: I don`t know. I`m feeling -- sometime, I feel jealous about you, Laura.
BARON: I can understand that. You can borrow my sweater.
PINSKY: Pornography, homosexuality, which I got to say, all of this, lying, drunkenness, thievery, and dishonesty. They are -- Gloria Allred -- oh, by the way, I have to say, we reached out to San Diego Christian College for a statement, and although we did not receive a response, they have stated publicly that all job candidates must sign the community covenant before they`re hired and, quote, "withdraw from the community may result if these commitments are not honored" --
PINSKY: -- unquote. Gloria, discriminatory. Do they have the right -- aren`t these organizations under state jurisdiction? This is a California state, I understand, issue. This seems outrageous. Are we missing something?
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: I don`t think you are missing something, Dr. Drew, because we filed this lawsuit against San Diego Christian College, and we allege gender discrimination, pregnancy discrimination, marital status discrimination, because obviously, if she were pregnant and married, she would not have been terminated.
And, we don`t believe they even have the right to call her in as they did and ask her, are you pregnant?
ALLRED: Because we think that`s a private medical information and they have no right to ask her that, and they did it. And also, we don`t think they have any right to terminate her because even though they`re a Christian college, they are registered with the secretary of state of California as a business.
So, they are a for-profit business. As such, they are subject to the laws of the state of California and the state constitution, which prohibit discrimination.
BARON: That and also just how humiliating was this for you, sweetie? I mean, to be -- you`re cast away from your community, practically, your religion. How are you doing?
JAMES: It`s been really difficult. It`s been really hard because my husband is an alumni of the school, and so, he`s lost his community as well. And so, both of us are having to rebuild that community again. And we`ve had some really great friends that have stuck by us. And it`s been really good to have them.
But there are friends that we`ve totally lost. And so, it`s -- it`s been a difficult time. I mean, getting married and having a baby and all of that is supposed to be joyous, and we`re trying to make the best of our situation right now. But yes, it`s been difficult for the both of us.
PINSKY: And Gloria, aside from jealousy and premarital sex, you can`t be a homosexual and be in their community. Isn`t that a very, very serious issue of discrimination in the state of California?
BARON: So antiquated.
ALLRED: Well, I mean, they state that is part of their community covenant. By the way, the community covenant doesn`t say anything about and you can be terminated if you, in fact, are a homosexual or if you engage in premarital sex. So, again, even if she signed it, I don`t think that that is valid. And that`s why we`re suing.
By the way, her then boyfriend who is now her husband and who is the father of the child-to-be, was offered a job at San Diego Community College -- Christian College, and we allege that they knew that he was her boyfriend and the father-to-be of the child and still they offered him --
BARON: They knew that he was --
ALLRED: -- a job even after terminating her.
BARON: Oh, my gosh.
PINSKY: OK. So, it`s complicated. We will be watching this. Gloria, Teri, my dear, good luck with the child. That`s what`s really important here. I`m glad you guys are together and happy and have a rich support network. You`re going to need that. Gloria, we`ll watch this carefully --
ALLRED: And Teri is very brave. I just want to commend her.
BARON: Yes, absolutely.
ALLRED: She`s very brave to speak out about this. And she wants to help other women in her situation.
PINSKY: I wouldn`t be surprised if others kind of sort of joined other organizations and networks sort of join with you because it seems like this does not seem quite right.
BARON: No, especially when the guy is fine.
PINSKY: Well, there you go. Thank you, ladies.
Next an update on the accused cannibal cop and what he allegedly told, get this, a butcher. Be right back.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Laura Baron. We are tacking once again, Laura, about the so-called cannibal cop.
BARON: Oh, I hate this story. This is so disgusting.
PINSKY: It`s disgusting, but you can`t look away from this one either.
PINSKY: He was an NYPD cop, married his girlfriend he met online, ladies. This online thing, be very cautious. They had a baby. His wife suspected he might be cheating, and she sort of looks into what he`s doing on the computer and --
BARON: Good for her, by the way.
PINSKY: And by the way, I`m with you, Laura. If you`re not doing anything wrong, you shouldn`t mind your spouse looking at anything you`re doing --
BARON: Exactly. Open kimono.
PINSKY: OK. What she found was rather than him cheating, he was plotting to kill her and her friends and eat them.
BARON: That`s so disgusting.
PINSKY: Today in court, an FBI agent told -- testified that he told a butcher that he wanted to string her upside down and then slow-roast her until she died.
BARON: Who even does this? He was -- he had said that it was like a fantasy, but he wasn`t actually going to do it. Is that like only half teeth marks in her cheek? Is that possible?
PINSKY: Well, not only that, it`s like a fantasy of doing something to a child and then going to websites where people are talking about that and looking at images of that. I think that`s a crime myself.
BARON: I agree.
PINSKY: Quickly, Trish in Oklahoma. Trish, did you want to say something about this horrific story?
TRISH, OKLAHOMA: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew. As an NYPD officer, he lured his victims and he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
PINSKY: Well, he is in trouble. We`re going to be covering the case a little bit. And I, Laura, just am worried -- I went and did a little investigation online. I encourage other people to do that and see people that are into this kind of stuff. It will turn you upside down --
BARON: I did not even know that cannibalism was like a thing. I just thought it was like bad tacos that I had. I don`t know why I --
PINSKY: Well, it`s something that is out there and the people that have it feel afraid of it but --
BARON: Of course.
PINSKY: Here`s a basic note to anybody--
BARON: What do you mean that people who have it feel afraid --
PINSKY: I`ll show you video of some of these people talking about their condition maybe later on after the show, Laura, and you`ll see them. They`re mortified by it, but they can`t -- it`s like a lust. And this is my note to everybody that wants to do horrible things. If something horrible happened to you or you have a brain problem and it makes you wired in such a way that awful things are sort of motivated, I don`t fault you for that. What I fault you for is not getting help --
PINSKY: -- when you know that stuff is taking over. Get help.
PINSKY: -- because it can make a difference. They can prevent you from hurting yourself or somebody else. There`s lots of behaviors that are not OK that you may be thinking about. Get some help. Thank you all for watching. Anderson Cooper with us tomorrow night to talk about Jodi Arias. "Nancy Grace" is up now.