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Battle of Wits, Words in Jodi Arias Cross-Examination

Aired February 27, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Jodi Arias interrogated on the stand in a grueling battle of wits and words, pitting her against the prosecutor. Jodi claimed the knife she used to stab Travis 29 times, to slit his throat ear to ear, was there for the grabbing, because Travis had just used that knife to cut rope that he used to tie her to his bed in a kinky sex session just before she killed him. Really?


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over); Tonight, a triple-X-rated day in the Jodi Arias trial. The blush factor soars as fiery prosecutor Juan Martinez grills Jodi about sexually explicit calls and texts with Travis Alexander. Nothing`s off the table from masturbation to spanking.

And Jodi admits she was a very willing participant in all the steamy sex she had with Travis. Is the prosecutor tearing apart Jodi`s abuse claim, that she felt like a prostitute?

We`ll ask former Hollywood madam Jody "Babydol" Gibson what she thinks about their kinky sexual relationship. And we`ll debate it with our expert panel. Plus, I`ll talk to Jodi Arias`s male BFF, who wants to respond to a shocking new tabloid report.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT (via phone): You had another agenda.

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You do enjoy the sex.

ARIAS (on camera): There are so many attractive qualities about him.

MARTINEZ: "Oh, yes. I want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you like a dirty, horny little school girl."

And the three of you had sex.


MARTINEZ: "So maybe you could give my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) a too-much- needed pounding, too." As we know, people don`t lie, do they?


ARIAS: It wasn`t consistent, so no. I recorded it, we both created it together.

(via phone): Like you, someone who can be freaky.

MARTINEZ: "If you`re a lucky boy and you promise to give me a good, well-deserved spanking," well, you were enjoying it, too, weren`t you?

ARIAS (via phone): You make me feel horny. I basically think about having sex with you every day.

(on camera): He has this way of kind of guilting me.

ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, sex and lies uncovered in the Jodi Arias courtroom as the prosecutor hones in on Travis Alexander`s bedroom, where they had kinky sex just before this terrible killing. Did Travis really tie Jodi to this bed you`re seeing right there, using a knife to cut the rope, or is this another lie of Jodi`s to explain the knife she used to slaughter him?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

The beautiful 32-year-old photographer on trial for stabbing her ex- boyfriend with that knife 29 times, slicing Travis Alexander`s throat all the way down to the spine, shooting him in the head. But she says she did it all in self-defense.

Jodi`s tried to paint Travis as a pedophile and a pervert, a man who fantasized about having sex with 12-year-old girls and made her wear pigtails, and take naked photos like the one we`re going to show you right here.

But the prosecutor pointed out it was Jodi herself who excitedly suggested that she dress up like a school girl for sex. Listen to this.


MARTINEZ: You said, "Oh, yes, I want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you like a dirty, horny little school girl," right?


MARTINEZ: So the school girl issue here in this conversation is being brought up by you, not by him, right?

ARIAS: That`s right.

MARTINEZ: You did enjoy dressing up for him, right?

ARIAS: Um, yes.

MARTINEZ: Let`s read it. You: "I want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you like a dirty, horny little school girl." So that implies that you are dressed up in a certain fashion, right?


MARTINEZ: And it also implies that or indicates that it`s you that`s the person that likes this sort of activity and looking like a horny little school girl, right?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: So was Jodi actually the sexual aggressor and not Travis` battered, meek, abused victim?

Tonight we`re going to analyze Jodi and Travis`s kinky sexual relationship with a woman extremely familiar with the wild side of sex, former Hollywood madam Jody Babydol Gibson, with us tonight. And we`re also going to talk to Jodi`s BFF, a guy who -- there he is in the courtroom, and also readily visits Jodi in jail. And he sits behind her in court. He wants to set the record straight about a tabloid report claiming Jodi wants to have his baby. Oh, my gosh.

Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to our senior producer, Selin Darkalstanian. You were in court for what may have been the raunchiest, most sexual testimony yet. Take us inside that courtroom.

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Jane, it was unbelievable. In the morning, we heard more sexual conversation between Jodi and Travis, but this time it was a very different Jodi on the stand. She was almost giggling. She was smirking. She was smiling.

When the prosecutor was going to show her an exhibit that had sexual text messages back and forth between her and Travis, she at one point smiled, and she was -- she was loving the attention on the stand today in the morning session.

But then in the afternoon, it was almost like Juan Martinez was wearing her out by going over very specific details. Remember, when her defense attorney was talking to her, he was brushing over the details. Juan Martinez is not letting Jodi go.

With every single statement she made on direct, he`s going back on cross-examination, and he is not letting one single statement she made go by without questioning her about it and questioning her about it to the point that people in the courtroom, we were almost exhausted, because we`ve been hearing him keep honing in on one single detail. He will not let that detail go. He`ll stick it to one detail for 20 minutes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I know, because I`ve been watching it, and frankly, the license plate story went on way too long. I mean, he made the point that she really took that license plate, if you believe that she plotted and planned this killing, and turned it upside down so that cops wouldn`t get her number if she was somehow spotted, and then she blames it on some skateboarders.

But this was, oh, my God, where the license plate was, and how it was turned around went on for -- for way too long.

Now, let`s get back to this incredibly salacious testimony. The jury saw several texts from Jodi, some very X-rated, that the prosecutor says Jodi was actually the sexual aggressor and a far cry from this meek, submissive, soft-spoken abuse person that the defense has tried to portray her as. Check this out.


MARTINEZ: "If you`re a lucky boy, and you promise to give me a good well-deserved spanking." Then, there`s a period there. Right?


MARTINEZ: And then you also say, "Maybe you could give my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) a too-much-needed pounding, too... kidding." Correct?


MARTINEZ: You`re kidding about the second portion but not the first portion. Correct?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s debate it with our panel. We`re split: half prosecution, half defense.

Greg Tecce, former federal prosecutor, she is the one making raunchy jokes about anal sex. On direct, she testified about feeling degraded when Travis pressured her into anal sex after he baptized her into the Mormon faith.

GREG TECCE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I`ve got to tell you, you know, you may find this hard to believe, but I`m no prude. And I`ve got to tell you, some of the stuff that I heard today was over the top.

But I will say this. He does have to make these points. He`s got to show this. Because I think it really does affect her credibility. Because at the end of the day, remember: the only evidence in the entire universe of how he treated her was her testimony live in front of the jury.

And I think that`s what he`s got to go for. The problem I`m having is, he`s going way too long. And I heard the reporter say that he`s hitting every little detail, and I think that`s a mistake. The main points are going to get lost if he gets way down in the weeds with her. Big mistake.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Jon Lieberman, you say no, not a mistake.

JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I disagree. I think today was Mr. Martinez` most effective day. Because he`s meticulously dissecting every single part of Jodi Arias`s story.

And you`re missing also the bigger picture, which is he brought up the tape today where she voluntarily called Detective Flores and told the detective that Travis had no gun at his house. And that was the smoking gun today.

TECCE: But those are great points, but the problem is, is that when you spend too much time fiddling around with the stuff about the license plate, those really effective points get lost. I mean, the jury can only remember so much.

GINA LONGARZO: Yes, listen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Gina Longarzo in. Gina Longarzo, your point?

LONGARZO: Thank you, Jane. You make your points and you sit down. When you take too long and you go over and over and over again, and then you get all different various testimony, you`re not having a good day. OK? He`s not making any groundwork with her, I don`t think.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, he`s got to do what he`s got to do, Evan. She was on the stand on direct for days on end. He`s got to counteract that.



LONGARZO: You lose the jury`s interest. You lose the jury`s interest.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Order in the non-court. Come on, evan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s -- but there`s much more than the jury`s interest. This day was different than past days in the fact that it was focused. One word, premeditation.

He -- she -- Jodi portrayed her showing up at Alexander`s house as a bittersweet accident. And today that was eviscerated by the prosecutor.

Does he take a bit too long? Sure, but he absolutely needed to get this set out here so that when he comes back for his close, he can say, "This was planned; this was not an accident. And this is first-degree murder."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Adam Swickle, I think that the prosecutor, by being calmer today and yelling less, actually got Jodi Arias to go along with the story line and essentially agree that, "Yes, I was into a lot of the sex," which I thought was totally devastating to her. She`s giggling and laughing. He`s playing all of these horrific sound bites that are making us all blush. And she`s like "Yes, I went along with it. Yes, I initiated." What happened to her defense team?

ADAM SWICKLE, ATTORNEY: Well, I`ve got to tell you, Jane, while I understand your points and I appreciate them, the first thing I thought about, and I`ve watched most of this cross-examination. The first thing I thought about is the prosecutor is kind of like a little kid who comes downstairs on Christmas morning, has a boxful of gifts, and just starts rummaging around. There`s been no order. There`s been no logic, and he`s gone on and on.

And here`s what I mean. Two points. I think he`s failed in his demeanor, and I think he`s failed in the organization of his questions and the way in which he`s presented them. His demeanor went out of the box right from the beginning, like a ravaged dog. What you do with a witness like this...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s leave dogs out of this. They haven`t done anything.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Lieberman, he`s making his point.

LIEBERMAN: Here is why he`s doing it. He`s doing it -- he has a master plan. He`s doing it because he`s not going to go through things chronologically...


LIEBERMAN: ... because she`s memorized that story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When you deal with a pathological liar...

LIEBERMAN: That`s why he is jumping around. And I counted...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... you don`t go chronologically.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You jump around.

LIEBERMAN: Right. And let me say one thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If you go chronologically, they can stick to their story.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s capping her because he`s jumping around, but the price you pay is it`s confusing the jurors.

LIEBERMAN: I counted eight times today, Jane. I counted eight times that she contradicted something she had said two minutes prior, within two minutes. That`s his whole point. She can`t tell the truth about anything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Hold on right there a second.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got so much more. We`re going to play all of the most extraordinary, salacious sound bites today in court. And we`re going to speak to -- right on the other side -- Jody "Babydol" Gibson, former Hollywood madam, who knows more about sex and kinky sex than probably anybody in America. Stay right there.


ARIAS: You keep mentioning truth. I`m not having a problem telling the truth.

MARTINEZ: All right. But you are having problems answering my questions, right?

ARIAS: I don`t have a problem answering your question if I remember the answer.

MARTINEZ: Here, are you having trouble because the prosecutor is standing?

ARIAS: Having trouble what?

MARTINEZ: You were there showing him these letters.

ARIAS: Define showing. I just handed them to him.

MARTINEZ: OK. Showing, giving somebody the letters, that doesn`t mean showing to you?

ARIAS: They were folded up.




MARTINEZ: He didn`t masturbate before he met you, right?

ARIAS: No, he didn`t say that. He said he hardly ever did.

MARTINEZ: Well, then perhaps we should listen to it again.

ALEXANDER (via phone): Before I met you, I never (EXPLETIVE DELETED) off.

MARTINEZ: You hear that?


MARTINEZ: And you have no reason to doubt that, do you?

ARIAS: I have plenty of reason to doubt that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, the prosecutor trying to make the point that, before Jodi came along, Travis may very well have been the virginal Mormon man he presented himself as.

But I wonder, Jody "Babydol" Gibson, author of "Secrets of a Hollywood Super Madam," former Hollywood madam who knows a whole lot about sex, did the prosecutor shoot himself in the foot, perhaps, with that particular example? We don`t know for sure, but Travis was 30 years old when he died. There`s a very good chance that he had engaged in masturbation prior to meeting Jodi a couple of years earlier, correct or not?

JODY "BABYDOL" GIBSON, FORMER MADAM (via phone): You know, I have my own take on all of this. With regard to the masochism, you know, masochism is something that, basically, a person likes because they`re suffering from some sort of guilt that they`re carrying around.

In Jodi`s case, I think it appears that she winds up that she ultimately acts like the aggressor but always winds up the masochist in the scenario. I think she does it because of low self-esteem.

And also, I believe that this is her first love, and I think because there`s such a fine line between masochism and abuse, I think it`s possible she might really believe abuse is love. I don`t think she knows the difference.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So are you saying that you have sympathy for her contention that she was abused?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or do you think she`s a big, fat liar like most of the people we polled? In fact, we`ve got a poll we could throw out that shows that 90 percent plus...

GIBSON: No, I absolutely think no. I think she was a liar. That`s absolute, and a great manipulator. She`s a fascinating case.

However, I don`t -- nothing she does justifies what she did. So let`s start with that. There`s no justification for it.

However, I really don`t know if she knows the difference between abuse and love. I just don`t think she does. And masochism is very abusive. There`s nothing nice about it. And yet, she wants him to -- she always seems to want to impress him with this sexual savvy, and like she`s a sexual sophisticate. That part of it, I think she wants to convince herself that she likes it and may ultimately believe that she does, all to get to...


GIBSON: ... this love she thinks she`s going to get from him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me play another sound bite. We`ll analyze it.

Jodi`s defense team made a big fuss about X-rated comments Travis made to Jodi during their sex tape. One was that he wanted to tie her to a tree and have intercourse with her tied up. This was key to the defense charging that she was a battered, sexually degraded woman.

Today, Jodi made it seem like, oh, no big deal.


JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In his phone call, he talks about his fantasies, his fantasies with Jodi of tying her to a tree and putting it, forgive me, in her (EXPLETIVE DELETED) all the way.

MARTINEZ: It was just a fantasy kind of conversation, wasn`t it?

ARIAS: Yes, it was just fantasy.

MARTINEZ: So that if he says he wants to tie you up to a tree and stick it up (EXPLETIVE DELETED), that could also be seen as fantasy, right?


MARTINEZ: That never happened, did it?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Jody "Babydol" Gibson, was the defense pulling a fast one when they took a phone sex call where he said raunchy fantasies and tried to turn that into he`s an abuser who actually does want to tie her to a tree and do all these things to her. There`s a difference between fantasy, sexual fantasy and reality.

GIBSON: There is. And sometimes the fantasies remain in the mind, because sex starts in the mind, however, these two seem to always act it out.

As far as why the defense did that, I haven`t a clue. I don`t -- I don`t even know what to think about that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you a bottom-line question, Jody "Babydol" Gibson. She is now appearing to really like the degrading sex. Why do some people, not always women -- sometimes it can be men -- like to be sexually degraded? Why are they into being the masochist, the submissive, the bottom, the person who is abused? What do they get out of it?

GIBSON: Well, often, a lot of the times rich and powerful men enjoy that, because they`re carrying a lot of guilt, you know, because of ruthless business behavior. Maybe they mistreated a lot of people on the way up, stepped on a lot of people, you know, did all of that, and so they`ve got all of this guilt, and this is how they assuage (ph) it, by getting abused.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, why would a woman, a young woman who doesn`t have, certainly, a stellar business career to feel guilty about, want to be abused like this?

GIBSON: I don`t think that was the case with her. I think in Jodi`s -- technically, that is why it happens.

However, in Jodi`s case, I believe it stems from low self-esteem, and like I said, I think it was her first love. I think this is the kind of love Travis implements, so to her, this is love. Abusive love. That`s what I think.

That doesn`t -- again, that doesn`t justify or give her excuse for all of the -- the heinous crimes that she committed that night, but I think in her mind, it stems from low self-esteem, and then graduates onto confusing abuse with love.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I think you`re right. And Jody, I want you to hang on. Because we want to talk to you and get more of your insights. But I agree. I think she was pulling out all the stops. She wanted Travis. She wanted him by any means necessary. "And I will engage in this and this and this" because maybe this and this and this will get him.

And I think she was in a rage when, after all the degrading things she let him do, he still didn`t want to take her to Cancun. He wanted to take another girl, a woman who wasn`t even interested in him.

More on the other side.


MARTINEZ: Did you lie to the detective, yes or no?


MARTINEZ: And did you lie to him on two occasions?

ARIAS: More than two, yes.

MARTINEZ: Well, I`m talking about two dates.


MARTINEZ: Did you lie to him on two dates?


MARTINEZ: And did you also lie to "48 Hours"?


MARTINEZ: Did you lie to people in Utah?


MARTINEZ: Did you lie to Daniel Freeman?

ARIAS: Yes, everyone.

MARTINEZ: So you lied to a lot of people, but you`re saying just because you are sitting here in this courtroom, there has been, for lack of a better term, a conversion, and you`re now telling the truth. Right?

ARIAS: For lack of a better term, yes.




MARTINEZ: "You promise to give me a good well-deserved spanking," and then there`s a period there, right?


MARTINEZ: And then you also say, "Maybe you could give my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) a too-much-needed pounding, too... kidding." Correct?


MARTINEZ: You`re kidding about the second portion, but not the first portion, correct?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Along with trying to show that Jodi was the sexual aggressor, the prosecution has now finally gotten to the minutes before the killing. Remember, Jodi used a knife to slash and stab Travis repeatedly. She claims that knife was handy to grab, because Travis had used it to cut rope that he used to tie her to his bed in a kinky sexual marathon just before the killing.


MARTINEZ: This wasn`t a case where he was going to hog-tie you, right?


MARTINEZ: This wasn`t a case where he wanted you immobile? The purpose of this rope is decorative for the fantasy of it, right?


MARTINEZ: Do you remember telling Richard Samuels that he actually brought the knife back and left it on the knife stand so that he could cut the rope off of your wrists?

ARIAS: I remember speculating about where the knife was left, but I didn`t need -- he didn`t need to cut the rope.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, "In Session." Sometimes it`s hard to follow along what exactly the point is. I presume the prosecutor is trying to prove Jodi`s story about the knife being convenient to her self-defense attack is another lie, that she actually brought the knife there to kill Travis and this whole "tie me to the bed" story could be made up, right? They never did find a rope.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Yes, yes, right, absolutely. Well, she says she took the rope and threw it away. That`s one of the things she remembers, despite the fact that her memory is pretty blank about the actual killing and attempt to clean up.

But she says this wasn`t premeditated. It was a last-minute decision when she was in Pasadena five hours from Mesa. She decided to detour and not go directly to Utah; go and see Travis. It wasn`t premeditated. She didn`t go there with weapons. She didn`t go with a knife and a gun.

Well, she gives an explanation for the gun. You don`t have to register guns in Arizona. It`s like trying to disprove a negative here. But no one in Travis`s circle knew him to ever have a gun, and he would borrow guns at a range with his friend. We know that. OK. But she says he had a gun.

The knife. Where did the knife come from? So she comes up with this explanation. Maybe it`s true, maybe it`s not. But she tells her psychologist, who still has to testify, that it was on the nightstand. She never explains how that knife gets in the bathroom. Now she says it might have been in the bathroom.

But remember, Jane, from the last photo of Travis alive...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s in the bedroom (ph).

KARAS: ... until the accidental photo where he`s dead, it`s about a minute and 45 seconds. She gets a gun. She get a knife. She slashes and stabs him 29 times. She shoots him. I mean, a lot went on in that minute 45 seconds. It`s going to be very hard for her as she is asked to recount that or account for every second where she was able to so successfully slaughter him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And I just wonder, Beth, why the prosecutor didn`t just say, "Look, there was no -- no tying to the bed. There was no rope ever found. You didn`t dispose of that rope. This bed is not the type of bed you can really tie somebody to, because it`s, like, got a sleigh back. It`s not got posts that are easy to tie. It never happened. And then move on.

But he gets so wrapped up in the minutia of how the bed and the rope and the length, I honestly wasn`t sure whether he was saying she was never tied up or he was saying that she was tied up, but the knife was left in the bathroom or she was tied up.

KARAS: It was amazing. It was an amazing cross-examination today. Every area he hit, I was like, "Oh, my God." I was blown away by him today, quite frankly. I was never bored, not one minute in that courtroom. And I doubt the jurors were either.

He backed her into corners. He got her to contradict herself. Various statements that she has made, testimony that she had given. I mean, she had nowhere to go regarding the gas cans. He caught her on that third gas can. He caught her in various lies regarding the gas, which was great.

He caught her, for the state, he caught her in the license plate explanation. Absolutely neutralized the license plate explanation.

So that`s what he`s doing. He`s looking to execute the woman. He better go through the details.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I think you make a good point, Beth, is that it takes time, and it`s easy for us armchair quarterbacks to say, "Well, I would have said it this way or that." He`s got to ask, according to the rules of law, and he`s got to cover so much ground.

And I like your point. I think he did do a very good job. I just wonder sometimes why it takes so long, but you`ve explained it so much more.

Debate and incredible moments from inside court on the other side. We`re also going to talk to a good friend of Jodi Arias`s, who wants to set the record straight about, oh, a claim that she wants him to give him -- well, you`ve got to hear it on the other side. I can`t summarize that one.

Top of the hour, Nancy Grace talks to a former co-worker of Travis Alexander`s. Nancy, 8 Eastern, right here on HLN.

More on the other side.


MARTINEZ: You said, "Oh, yes, I want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you like a dirty, horny little schoolgirl," right?


MARTINEZ: So the schoolgirl issue here in this conversation is being brought up by you, not by him, right?

ARIAS: That`s right.




JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Let`s say for a second that I did, and I say I did it.

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: I want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you like a dirty, horny little school girl, right?


WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: She was decimated on the stand, and it is only going to get worse.

MARTINEZ: Did you lie to the detective?


MURPHY: Every time she answers, she digs herself deeper into this hole.

MARTINEZ: Did you lie to him on two occasions?

ARIAS: More than two, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s like a chameleon. She can be all these different people.

MARTINEZ: Did you also lie to "48 Hours"?


I think I am more focused on your posture and your tone and your anger. So I try to focus the question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is wasting way too much time losing this jury by questioning her for days.

MARTINEZ: Did you lie to people in Utah?


MARTINEZ: Are you having problems understanding again what`s going on?

ARIAS: Sometimes because you go in circles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is killing the most winnable case in the history of American justice.

MARTINEZ: Did you lie to Daniel Freeman?

ARIAS: Yes, everyone.

MARTINEZ: You could give him a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) too much needed pounding, too.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s a victim. She`s a woman that is ashamed and abused and in denial herself.

ARIAS: If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is humanizing her in front of the jury.

ARIAS: If I was going to ever try to kill somebody, I would use gloves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can either believe the evidence or they can believe Jodi Arias.

ARIAS: (inaudible) Everything will come out. And in the meantime, smile and say "cheese".


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s a woman who has been caught lying over and over again on a "48 Hours" interview which we`ll play for you in a second. What a wild day in court. Meanwhile, developments outside court, according to a tabloid story, Jodi is already planning for life after the trial.

That`s right. The "National Enquirer" says Jodi has a lesbian lover in jail, and that the pair wants to use Jodi`s friend, Brian Carr, to quote, "get her pregnant so she and her new wife can have a child together," end quote.

Well, here to set the record straight is none other than Jodi`s good friend Brian Carr. Brian, thanks for joining us, you`re a close friend of Jodi`s. You`ve been in her courtroom quite often. How do you respond to this claim that`s now been published that you say is getting a lot of play on the Internet that Jodi wants to use you to get pregnant?

BRIAN CARR, FRIEND OF JODI ARIAS: Yes, actually it`s ridiculous basically, "National Enquirer". I mean it`s ridiculous. Jodi has no whatsoever girlfriend in jail. She`s definitely not manipulating me. She is not asking me for nothing.

No, it is a ridiculous story. And that`s the main reason I wanted to set the record straight. I mean Jodi, all I do is support Jodi, defend Jodi. There`s no -- nothing like that whatsoever in the case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you make of Jodi? We heard from various people say that she`s being cornered, she`s been proven to be a pathological liar, her stories are not adding up, she`s contradicting herself on the witness stand, this is a fiasco for her. What do you say about that, Brian?

CARR: You know, I mean, yes, a lot of people are bringing up the fact that she lied. Granted, she did lie, but she explained why she lied, she was ashamed. She -- a violent person, a violent person is going to have a track record of being violent. Jodi, all she has on her record is a speeding ticket, never had trouble with her ex-boyfriends, never had trouble with anybody or even being (inaudible) matter, the truth coming out, she`s confident right now on the stand, stressed but very confident.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So she thinks she`s going to be acquitted or she just won`t get the death penalty?

CARR: No, she definitely doesn`t think she will be acquitted. The death penalty, me and her both agree, no, there`s no way she`s going to get the death penalty. There`s no evidence. I mean, the only evidence you have, you have character witnesses, but the only evidence that you really have is Jodi. That`s the only person knows what happened. And they talk about Travis was found dead in the bathroom stall. No one looks past the big old blood stain on his bedroom carpet. How did that blood stain get there? They`re not even talking about that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let me ask you this question. You talk to her behind bars quite frequently. What does she think she`s going to be found guilty of, and how much time does she think she`s going to spend in jail?

CARR: There was a toss-up about that. It is going to be a long process. She believes, and I kind of agree with her, but she believes that it is going to be a mistrial. All the jurors aren`t going to agree, it will look bad on the prosecution where they`re going to have another trial. State of Arizona it`s six years. She thinks that she will get manslaughter, five years parole.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. She said that to you?

CARR: Yes. Right out of Jodi`s mouth, that`s what we`re hoping for anyways, but yes Jodi feels kind of confident on that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, that`s pretty extraordinary. Let`s go out to the phone lines.

Debbie, Missouri, your question or thought, Debbie?

DEBBIE, MISSOURI (via telephone): Hi, yes. I wanted to say today towards the end of the testimony the prosecutor asked her when she took her shower after they had sex on the day she killed him, she said in his bathroom. And then he said did you take a shower in the same shower stall where you stuffed his dead body and she looked down and she said yes.

Well, in direct questioning, she said she doesn`t remember the stabbing, she doesn`t remember slitting his throat, doesn`t remember obviously stuffing him in the shower, so the correct answer if she had a big memory gap would have been "I don`t remember stuffing him in the shower." Instead she slips and said --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa. Excellent point.

DEBBIE: I know.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You caught that.

DEBBIE: -- a pathological liar for eight years. I got really good at picking up on things. I think that`s why he has been so meticulous with everything because the more questions you ask them in different orders, they can`t keep up with it, they`re not quite that good.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re absolutely right. Pathological liars are impossible. They`re impossible as human beings. They are very difficult to pin down.

I want to go to Selin Darkalstanian, very quickly. Did you notice that slip-up by Jodi that she said yes, she remembered stuffing him in there?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: She did. That`s a great, great point that our caller just made. I don`t know if Juan is going to go back to it tomorrow because tomorrow, remember, is the actual day that we`re going to get to the killing and we`re going to get to the shower scene.

So it will be interesting how she responds to that. But that`s a great point. She did respond like that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you say shower scene, like something out of "Psycho" but this is a real, real horror. This is not a movie.

More on the other side.


ARIAS: Define recent. What do you mean by that? I don`t know what you mean. Independent of what?

MARTINEZ: Yes or no.

ARIAS: I was saying no and you interrupted me. That`s not what I said. Am I allowed to tell you what I am trying to say?

MARTINEZ: You`re saying the prosecutor is cutting you off, right?

ARIAS: In this particular case in this cross examination, yes.

MARTINEZ: The reason you can`t be effective on the witness stand is because somebody is asking you questions in a way you don`t like?

ARIAS: I think that was a compound question.

MARTINEZ: You understand we`re not talking about right now about your relationship with Mr. Alexander. You understand that, correct?

ARIAS: I understand we got very off track.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: A lot of people say to me, it is boring just to eat your veggies. Au contraire -- take a look at this. I am in a food co-op. And these are beets and you have snow peas. You`ve got Brussel sprouts. You`ve got green butter lettuce. Take a look at this -- Black kale. All right. And how about this one -- this is purple kale.

And when you start treating vegetables as an adventure and exploring all the many different kinds of vegetables that there are, you realize that hey, it is not just potatoes.




ARIAS: Two individuals that one wanted to take my life. He pulled the trigger and nothing happened, just a click. I charged her, ran down that hall and I pushed her as hard as I could and she fell over him, landed near the sink. I just ran right past him. And I flew down the stairs. There`s part of like I wasn`t even in my body, I was, but everything felt numb. I was hyperventilating and my heart was racing.

Even as I went down the stairs, there was part of my, like my brain was telling my legs don`t screw up or you`re going to fly down the stairs and you`re not going to get away.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. That was the second lie. First she said she wasn`t there, then she said two ninjas attacked them and she flew out of the house. Wow, can she tell a story.

Let`s debate now what we just heard right here on the show for the first time, that Jodi Arias according to her friend Brian Carr thinks it`s going to be a mistrial first time around and then second time around it`s going to be manslaughter, which would mean she`s already served four years, she would pretty much skate.

Let`s start with Phoenix attorney Evan Bolick. What do you say?

EVAN BOLICK, PHOENIX ATTORNEY: There`s no way that`s going to happen, Jane, unless she has the most gullible jurors in the world, you know. Her lies have been exposed. She has no real defense. There`s no way that they`re going to go all the way down to manslaughter.

And if for some reason a juror is in the unlikely event that a juror is feeling she`s not guilty, then they`re obviously going to vote for not guilty and have a hung jury, but that`s an outrageous idea for her to have, but she`s had outrageous ideas many times before.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Gina Longarzo, defense -- yes, outrageous idea?

GINA LONGARZO, ATTORNEY: I`m just wondering if that lady that just spoke actually tried cases because I can definitely see --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go back to you in a second because your mike is out.

Let`s do Adam Swickle, we`ll fix your mike. Go ahead, Adam.

ADAM SWICKLE, ATTORNEY: I think that kind of comment, they all forget about what happened with Casey Anthony and O.J. Simpson. You never know what a jury is going to do. But I think manslaughter is a very, very big possibility. And if you sit here and try to predict what a jury is going to do, you`re going to have the same crow on your face that you had when you said that there was no way Casey Anthony can be acquitted.

JON LEIBERMAN: It`s different, this case.

BOLICK: No way, there`s a big difference. No, no, there`s a big difference between this case and Casey Anthony.

SWICKLE: There`s no difference.

BOLICK: This case has evidence.

LEIBERMAN: There`s a huge difference. Jodi admitted to killing Travis.


LEIBERMAN: That`s difference number one right there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well -- ok, Fred Tecce --

SWICKLE: That doesn`t mean she gets the death penalty. That doesn`t mean she gets the death penalty.



FRED TECCE, ATTORNEY: Look I`ll tell you what. I`ll tell you what --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Hold on. I`ve got to see the panel. Show me the panel.

TECCE: You know what; I have news for you. I am not always right but I am committed to my position. This woman is not going to get manslaughter. She`s going to be convicted --

LONGARZO: It`s manslaughter, it wasn`t premeditated. That`s the whole point.

TECCE: She has a better chance of going to heaven.

LONGARZO: She`s crazy. She doesn`t remember anything she did.

TECCE: She shows up with a gun like the one that was stolen at her grandmother`s house, she hides it and throws away the evidence.


LEIBERMAN: Do you believe she doesn`t remember a manslaughter? No.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Quiet. Quiet. Let Fred --

TECCE: The evidence against this woman is overwhelming.


BOLICK: I`m sorry. You know, the great thing about not remembering anything about the murder is that the prosecutor gets to fill in the blanks and he will tomorrow. It will happen.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gina. I want Gina to be able to get a word in edgewise here. Men, give Gina a chance. Ok.

LEIBERMAN: Go ahead.

LONGARZO: He is asking ridiculous questions like have you ever been in another woman`s bedroom and she says yes. He says for sex and she says no. She`s trying to be honest. She doesn`t remember. She has given so many different versions.

It wasn`t premeditated because of her --

LEIBERMAN: Did you just say she`s trying to be honest?

LONGARZO: She doesn`t remember. Excuse me, I am talking. She doesn`t remember because she was temporarily insane, which is no premeditation, which is no death penalty, which means manslaughter.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we will continue this debate on the other side.


MARTINEZ: You told them that you didn`t want the red card, right?

ARIAS: That`s right.

MARTINEZ: The color red seems to stands out, doesn`t it.

ARIAS: I don`t know, I just heard they get more tickets.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for Pet o` the Day. Send your pet pics to River -- oh, my gosh, what a handsome boy. And Valentino, and you have your little toy there. Bebe, you have a toy, too. See, they`re just like kids. They need their toys. James says I`m very regal and I don`t need a toy, thank you very much.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: If Jodi brought a gun with her to Travis Alexander`s home, the state could prove she plotted, she premeditated. That could qualify her for the death penalty.

Jodi testifying after Travis attacked her, she ran into his closet, right there, grabbed the gun she knew Travis kept on the top shelf, we have a circle there where the top shelf is, and then she shot him in self- defense.

But that`s not what she told a detective days after Travis was killed. Here is the audio tape.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know of him having any weapons at all in the house?

ARIAS: Um, his two fists.


ARIAS: Really.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok, no handguns or rifles or --

ARIAS: No, he wasn`t one to keep any of that.

MARTINEZ: That`s you saying, no, he doesn`t have any guns, right?

ARIAS: Yes, that`s right.

MARTINEZ: And that was the truth, wasn`t it?

ARIAS: No, that wasn`t the truth.

MARTINEZ: Are you saying that you lied to him again?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, boy. Well, meantime, the defense has subpoenaed this video that our show obtained exclusively from a friend of Travis Alexander`s. You can see Travis there shooting an automatic rifle but his friend showed us this video to show that he borrowed -- Travis borrowed his gun because Travis didn`t own a gun.

So is this very damning or could on redirect the defense make points with this video? Let`s start with Fred Tecce, former federal prosecutor.

TECCE: No, they`re not going to make any -- you can`t make any points in this video. She shot him with a handgun. That`s an AR-15 that the guy is shooting. Look, you know what; you`re all talking about what did the sadist do to the masochist, nothing.

These people find each other. Let`s not lose sight of the fact that her entire defense was "I killed this guy because he made me dress up like Ginger and Marianne and maybe the professor and I killed him in a rage." The fact of the matter is that the only testimony we have is from her and today it was established not only was she a willing participant she enjoyed it and engaged in it. She`s done.


SWICKLE: Listen, the bottom line is she`s not done. This isn`t a premeditated killing. The issue with the gun, her words, and I believe her defense is going to come back and is going to discuss this, does not mean the guy didn`t have a gun on that day. That is not what she said.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, killer road trip. Sorry.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Prosecutor Martinez accused Jodi of plotting every step of her killer road trip, driving 100 miles just to rent a car. And then saying, oh, I don`t want a bright red car. Oh, no. Listen to this.


MARTINEZ: You told them that you didn`t want the red car, right?

ARIAS: That`s right.

MARTINEZ: The color red seems to stand out, doesn`t it?

ARIAS: I don`t know, I just heard they get more tickets.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Then she goes to her ex-boyfriend`s house and says, oh, can you lend me a couple of gas cans because she didn`t want anybody to know that she was going to Arizona. She didn`t want to fill up in Arizona. That`s premeditation. Will the jury buy it?

Nancy Grace next.