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Jodi Arias Shatters
Aired February 28, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, cross-examination completed. But first, what brought Jodi to her feet?
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Stand up. Show me the linebacker pose.
ARIAS: He went like that and he turned his head.
PINSKY: And what brought her to tears?
MARTINEZ: You would acknowledge that a lot of the stab wounds were to the back.
ARIAS: I didn`t count them. I don`t know.
PINSKY: Has she finally lost it?
MARTINEZ: Ma`am, were you crying when you were shooting him? Were you crying when you were stabbing him? How about when you cut his throat, were you crying then?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
PINSKY: Anderson Cooper joins me live with his take.
Plus, why are some saying the judge is failing in this case?
JUDGE: All right. We`re going to take the noon recess. >
PINSKY: Our trial report card and my jury weigh in.
Let us get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Indeed, let us welcome to the program this evening, joining me, my co-host for this week, Laura Baron.
I`ve also got criminologist Casey Jordan; criminal defense attorney and host of "Deadly Sins" on Investigation Discovery. Also our guest, CNN`s own Anderson Cooper. I believe I`ve left Darren Kavinoky`s name, I`m sorry about that, Darren.
Brutal cross examination ended abruptly today. There was an explosive day of testimony. We`re going to look at some tape, and, Anderson, back with you.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: The conversation that you`re having there with the detective, is that in reference to the June 4th, 2008 photographs, yes or no?
ARIAS: Yes, and in a direct way it obviously is because he agreed to do it.
MARTINEZ: Yes or no?
ARIAS: I said yes.
MARTINEZ: It took a lot of convincing while he was shaving. You did say that, right?
ARIAS: I said "when", not "while". And it was actually a run-on sentence. It sounds that way, but when is the new sentence.
MARTINEZ: It`s gotten a while (ph) and take a shower. Isn`t that what you said? Yes or no? That`s all I`m asking.
ARIAS: Yes, but you stopped me before the sentence was over.
MARTINEZ: It took a lot of convincing prior when he was shaving, correct? That`s what it says. Yes or no?
ARIAS: Yes, part of it.
MARTINEZ: Yes or no?
ARIAS: Yes, part of it.
MARTINEZ: You didn`t delete the photographs, did you? The sex photographs, did you?
ARIAS: I might have deleted them. I believe it was him, but I can`t be sure, so it could have been me.
MARTINEZ: I`m asking what you believe. And you told us that you believe it was Mr. Alexander who deleted the photographs of you and he having sex.
ARIAS: What was the question?
MARTINEZ: You took other photographs that day?
ARIAS: Yes, in the shower.
MARTINEZ: Well, we`re not there, are we?
ARIAS: I don`t know. You go all over the place.
MARTINEZ: We`re talking about the deletion of photographs. Do you have any problem understanding that that`s the topic?
MARTINEZ: When did you delete photographs from that camera?
ARIAS: I can`t say definitively when.
MARTINEZ: Do you remember that we`re talking about Travis Alexander? Let`s start with that.
ARIAS: Yes, I remember that.
MARTINEZ: That`s why we`re here, because you killed him, right?
MARTINEZ: In August of 2007, all he did was grab your wrist, say I`m sorry and nailed you, right?
ARIAS: Can you please repeat that?
MARTINEZ: When he body slammed you, isn`t it true that he was out of the shower?
ARIAS: Well, yes.
MARTINEZ: OK, then, why did you tell us that he was still in the shower? Why did you just minutes ago tell us that?
ARIAS: I didn`t say that.
MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were shooting him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
MARTINEZ: You`re the one that did this, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anderson, that was really the moment of the day for me, when she was being hammered and he was just stating the facts, let`s be clear. Last night you kindly had me on your program and you were very interested in the -- sort of the magnitude of her lies and distortion.
You still interested in that?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: W a doubt. I mean, I think it`s fascinating to see her break down, and I think it was breaking down when she was cornered and her lies exposed. And she --
COOPER: -- basically had no where else to go and ended up crying because she -- I mean, this was a very different prosecutor than we`ve seen the last couple days. He was methodical. He was very, very effective. And I think she broke down because she was cornered.
PINSKY: And maybe -
COOPER: The other thing, Drew, that --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Anderson. Please?
COOPER: I find stunning today is the photos that were shown in court, photos that she took minutes, two minutes before killing this man. And you see him staring directly into the camera, photos that she took of him in the shower two, three minutes before killing him. It just -- I found that incredibly stunning.
PINSKY: I completely agree. To me -- that to me is the key to this whole case, why people are so interested in it. The whole time you can`t believe, you can`t believe that this little girl was as cold-blooded, as brutal, as much of a liar as she was.
Let me ask you this. I agree with you that the tears today were when she got cornered. I think she was just in a panic when she was crying. She wasn`t sorrowful, she wasn`t ashamed, she wasn`t sad, she was cornered, like you say.
I wonder -- you say also, Anderson, that you have a different prosecutor today. I wonder if perhaps he watched Mr. Geragos on your show last night and took a page from what he was suggesting, do you think?
COOPER: Mark Geragos was definitely have been tough on him, you know? But actually today, Geragos said he gives props to him. The other dramatic moment today which I`m sure you`ll play at some point in the hour ahead is when he had her read an e-mail she sent to Travis Alexander three days after she had killed him.
So she sends him an e-mail knowing he`s already dead because she killed him. And this e-mail, as she was reading it out, she only gets a couple lines into it before breaking down, but it is so calculated and so clear.
COOPER: She says in the first sentence, you know, I hope you`re not still mad at me because I wasn`t able to travel to Arizona to see you because I couldn`t get time off from work.
All of that is a lie.
COOPER: And just how calculating the e-mail was, I think when confronted with that in the courtroom, she had no other option but to just start crying and try to kind of throw the scent off.
PINSKY: I completely agree. Casey Jordan, do you agree with us that`s what`s going on here and the jury saw right through those tears?
CASEY JORDAN, PH.D., CRIMINOLOGIST: Absolutely. We have a trifecta between you and me and Anderson. The cat in the corner is absolutely what brought out the worst in her today as well. That snarky, argumentative -- I mean, beyond defiance, it was just infuriatingly ridiculous. How she was -- he wasn`t even spying on her, he got under her skin. He brought out the worst in her.
And when she finally got in the corner, where there was nowhere else to go and the jig was up, the tears are crocodile to a certain extent because she knows they are convenient but they are real in terms of her just -- it`s her frustration.
PINSKY: Her panic, yes.
JORDAN: Yes, she`s in a panic. She has nowhere else to go.
PINSKY: She`s a panic.
PINSKY: I think that`s exactly right.
Let`s try to take a call. Sherri in West Virginia. Sherri, do you have something to say here?
SHERRI, CALLER FROM WEST VIRGINIA: I do, Dr. Drew.
When the prosecutor showed Jodi Travis` body in the shower and she began to cry, I didn`t see one (INAUDIBLE). I thought she was upset because of the terrible thing she had done. I think she was reliving every moment. Wouldn`t you agree?
PINSKY: I`m not sure -- anybody else hear that? Anyone on my panel? I`m sorry, Sherri.
COOPER: What she was saying was that she was basically -- she`s agreeing with us that she feels this woman was basically cornered and that`s what the crying was about.
COOPER: But the caller did say she thought she was maybe reliving the murders. I don`t know if that`s why she was crying at all.
PINSKY: Oh, no. Yes.
COOPER: I don`t know that she -- I mean, you know more about this than I, Dr. Drew, but you last night talked about her perhaps being a sociopath and not having empathy.
PINSKY: That`s right. She would only have feelings --
DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Darren, hold on a second. I have to take a break. Darren, hang on.
KAVINOKY: All right.
PINSKY: She would have feelings of those that she thought someone would have in that situation, not any genuine feelings. If she is a psychopath, which Casey has speculated, I have speculated, yes, this is her being fearful for her own well-being. It`s interesting also, you mention that letter.
You can imagine these were tears of, oh, these were thoughts I had of the future maybe we had together and it`s so sad that we don`t. She doesn`t say that. She just sits and cries because she knows, as Casey says, the jig is up.
Next up, what brought Jodi to her feet during cross examination?
And later, I`ll have my jury weigh in on today`s amazing testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: He lunges at me like a linebacker. He was just this ball of fury coming at me.
MARTINEZ: Show me. That`s what I`m asking you to do. Not talk, show me. Show me the linebacker pose. Without talking, show me the pose.
ARIAS: He got down like that.
MARTINEZ: Like that?
MARTINEZ: OK. Go ahead and have a seat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is allegedly when she shot him and that was the prosecutor instructing Jodi not to talk but just demonstrate how Travis supposedly lunged at her.
But, Laura, I will remind me -- of course, my co-host this week, Laura Baron. And I also got my special guest, CNN`s Anderson Cooper.
Laura, if you remember on this show before, though, we have discussed the fact that the angle of the bullet does not fit with the way she describes this, and there was no powder burn on his skin suggesting that the shot was a fair distance away. Both flies in the face of the when the shooting occurred and how it occurred.
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: Yes, and she practically begged him not to make her do that stance, not to make her bend over. I think part of it is because she knew she was going down.
PINSKY: Once again, as Anderson was saying, it`s the cat in the corner. We`ve seen today particularly, we saw a lot of media interviews that she had done before this went to trial.
PINSK: If you could interview her, what would your first question be?
COOPER: You know -- well, that`s a tough one. I would really have to think about it, because, you know, I think when you`re dealing with somebody, as you say, who has no real feelings, who is sort of aping or imitating the feelings of a real person, you know, it`s very difficult --
COOPER: -- to do that kind of an interview, because I`ve watched those interviews she`s done, she`s very convincing. You know, when you`re watching -- she talked to "48 Hours", she did a bunch of media interviews. She`s talking as if she`s talking from the heart.
And these people who are psychopaths or sociopaths are able to mask the emotions or pretend to have the emotions that other people have, and they do it extraordinarily well.
I found it telling that a lot of times, I noticed when she cried today, she would cry with her hand in front of her face so you weren`t actually looking at any tears or looking at her face, it was all sort of hidden, which I just found kind of telling.
PINSKY: And if you were -- let`s say I was doing some sort of interview with her of a more sort of emotional nature, she would complain about feeling powerless and out of control, and she would disavow responsibility. We saw a lot of that in the witness stand, too, where she talks about how, well, I didn`t want to be that kind of person, or I didn`t want people to think less of me.
So she literally felt justified in trying to alter the crime scene to protect herself because she wouldn`t give any ideas that maybe she couldn`t doing -- Jodi would never do something like this.
Now, guys, before we go on, Anderson referred to a piece of tape where she was reading from a letter she wrote to Travis Alexander as an alibi. I think that`s what she was trying to do, even though she knew he was dead. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Hey, you, I haven`t heard back from you. I hope you`re not still upset that I didn`t come to see you. I just didn`t have enough time off. It`s OK, sweetie, you`re going to be here in less than two weeks.
MARTINEZ: Then you say, anyway, I wanted to let you know that I`m thinking about pushing my visit up to next week, but it depends on my budget, so I`m not sure yet. I know you`ll be in Cancun, but I`ll probably crash at your house in your cozy bed, anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I so agree with you, Anderson. That to me was one of the most telling moments of the day.
BARON: Drew, could it all be a fantasy she was living?
PINSKY: Well, that`s what you would -- a normal person might think that. Oh, I was fantasizing, if you were still alive, what it might like and it`s so sad that we`re not.
But, Anderson, I agree with you. I think it was just her cornered again.
COOPER: Let`s remember, that`s three days after she had killed him, stabbing him 29 times or so --
PINSKY: She had killed him.
COOPER: -- cutting his throat ear to ear. And at that moment, he was still -- his body was still lying, rotting, decomposing in the shower where he was -- in the bathroom where he was ultimately found.
PINSKY: And, Anderson, just to freak you out even more, this woman then sends irises to poor Travis` grandmother because -- well, she was sympathetic to grandma, and iris was the name of the child they would name their child, they decided. So bizarre, so bizarre.
BARON: So hard to wrap your head around.
PINSKY: It`s wild. Darren, I`m sorry, I cut you off in the last segment, last break. Did you have something you wanted to ring in here with?
KAVINOKY: Yes, well, I just have a different take on the crime. As Anderson said, she kind of apes what other people do.
I`m not buying the tears at all. I don`t think they were real. I don`t think there was anything going on other than her trying to perhaps get some sympathy from the jurors. If there is any of them that are going her direction at all, it would be because there have been moments where the prosecutor in this cross examination has been ineffective. Some of the people in the social media world have even commented about his bullying. So I think they probably prepped her by showing her videos of people actually crying so that she could get up there and mimic that.
PINSKY: I hope that doesn`t actually happen, Darren, in courts. But anyway, that`s bizarre.
I agree with you, I think that she -- you can`t trust any emotion coming from her.
Let`s go to a quick call. Kathy in Michigan. Kathy?
KATHY, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Dr. Drew, I`ve been watching Jodi and I noticed she seems to switch personalities a lot, and I`m wondering, is it possible she has multiple personality disorder?
PINSKY: You know, it`s a great question, and I had wondered that at the very -- really, that`s sort of a syndrome that people don`t put much, let`s say, accuracy on, but there are dissociative identity disorders where people can flip in and out of very uncharacteristic kinds of personalities. When I first heard about this, this was the only way I could make sense of it, that maybe there was some violent part of her that came out, but those people are usually severely abused, like ritualistically abused. She`s given us none of that.
And, Anderson, it seems why she`s angry about that because her abuse wasn`t so severe and doesn`t justify murder.
COOPER: Well, the idea that she has different personalities, I think that you kind of get that idea because when you see pictures of her back when she was having a relationship with Travis Alexander, she was blond, she was very -- you know, wearing tight clothing.
COOOPER: She was a different person. Now, she`s on the witness stand. She has clearly -- you know, your guest was suggesting perhaps she had been counseled on how to cry. She has certainly been counseled on having what happened with Jeff Toobin the other night called a make-under, not a makeover but a make-under.
PINSKY: That`s right.
COOPER: She looks like a librarian from the Midwest. I mean, she looks she was a different person than she was.
BARON: I take offense to that, Anderson. I`m from Chicago, Anderson.
COOPER: My cousin is a librarian from Mississippi, so I say that with great respect to librarians.
PINSKY: Of course.
COOPER: I mean, she`s trying to dress down as much as possible.
PINSKY: Yes, and let`s remind ourselves for days and early part of this trial, we were talking about how much she would adopt the appearance of people around her, including her attorney.
Casey, I`ve got about 20 seconds. Finish us out with that conversation.
JORDAN: Yes, there is no DID. No dissociative identity disorder. She has one personality and it`s that of a dodge ball player. She has two stances. You`re hyper-vigilant, you`re waiting for the hammering or you`re dodging. And that`s all she`s doing.
And the breakdown I`m going to split the difference, I think it`s a lot of crocodile tears, but I think she pictures herself in a cell for the rest of her life or the needle going into her arm, and the tears can flow.
PINSKY: And I want to say, I think the prosecutor had to be very skillful at that moment not to pound too hard, you know, when he was really going in for the kill lest he generate too much sympathy.
Anderson Cooper, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for having me on your program yesterday evening. We will be watching. I`m sure you`ll be watching this trial and hope to check with you soon.
PINSKY: Also, next -- thank you, sir -- Abe Abdelhadi is back. He`s the man who dated Jodi. He`s back with us exclusively. I had a little chat with him in the green room, and he was still thanking his lucky stars that he didn`t get where he intended to go with her.
And later, our trial report card. We are grading the judge`s performance.
Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: You`re the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso.
MARTINEZ: He`s already been shot, according to you, and he`s facing away from you. How could he possibly have been any threat to you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There it is. You cornered me, prosecutor Juan Martinez, you cornered me and I`m afraid even to answer, because there is no answer. I can`t -- I don`t have another lie. I forget.
BARON: It`s still so hard to watch those tears, though, Drew. It`s so hard to believe that`s all manufactured.
PINSKY: Well, I don`t think it is. I think she`s in a panic. Casey had her opinion, I have mine.
I feel she`s freaking out and scared and those are tears of fear.
And by the way, the prosecution has been grinding and relentless, and it`s hard to get through all that.
Back with our co-host Laura Baron. I don`t know, I think he did a very skillful job today.
BARON: Yes, me, too.
PINSKY: Yes, joining us now exclusively, Abe Abdelhadi. He is the man who had dated Jodi.
Let`s see, Abe. You guys were at a date in Pasadena, right, if I remember right?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Yes.
PINSKY: Barnes & Noble`s and Starbuck`s, I think probably the same Starbuck`s mentioned several times. It`s connected to Barnes & Noble, a place I frequent in Pasadena.
PINSKY: You went from there to sort of a -- you know, you were interested in some of what we know Jodi is into. But you didn`t know it at the time. You sensed it, though.
ABDELHADI: I sensed that she was assertive, I sensed that -- you know, she seemed like a normal girl that liked to be with men. I was a man, so I thought what the heck.
And I didn`t get any impression, obviously, hindsight being 20/20, I didn`t get any impression that she was capable of any of this. But I have to say watching her cry today on the witness stand didn`t elicit any emotional response out of me whatsoever. I sat there with my arms folded like I used to teach eighth grade and I busted a kid for writing on a wall.
BARON: You didn`t buy it at all?
ABDELHADI: It was a failure to rob the bank.
No, not at all. It was like the failure to rob the bank defense doesn`t excuse anybody from robbing the bank. You just -- your gun jammed or you screwed up, your driver didn`t get away fast enough. You still trying to rob the bank and that`s how I felt about her watching her today.
PINSKY: I also have attorney Alison Triessl.
Allison, should the judge have called a recess at that point in which she was really starting to get some emotion from Jodi?
ALISON TRIESSL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. Regardless of whether or not Jodi Arias was faking crocodile tears, the judge had to call a recess so she could compose herself.
PINSKY: Why? Why? Why?
TRIESSL: Because this is not a drama, this is a courtroom, and she had to compose herself. We all know that this was a big crock. I mean, she has been lying and lying. I never would have put her on the stand, lying. But the judge had to control the courtroom, no question.
PINSKY: Abe --
KAVINOKY: I`ve got to disagree with that one.
PINSKY: Go right ahead, Darren.
ABDELHADI: I`m sorry?
KAVINOKY: Yes. You know, and Alison, I got a lot of respect and a lot of love for you. I totally disagree on that one.
Momentum is a precious thing. Just -- think back to the Super Bowl. Ask the Baltimore Ravens about the value of momentum. And you can`t get it back.
You know, when you`ve got somebody on the ropes, when a fighter has their opponent on the ropes, they`ve got to be allowed to throw the knockout punch.
PINSKY: Darren, I hear you. But speaking of momentum, I have to break the momentum myself because we have to take a break.
KAVINOKY: You see? See how that goes?
PINSKY: I`m sorry. Right after killing Travis. Yes, it doesn`t feel good. I don`t like breaking the momentum but we`ll pick it up after the break.
And later on, my jury will tell us what they think about the meltdown on the stand today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t go to the police. You also told them that you got lost. There would be really no other reason to leave a dead man a telephone call, would there? All of these lies, ma`am, are meant for your benefit so that you could escape responsibility.
ARIAS: Yes, so I could escape whatever for the time being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I kept expecting her to jump up and scream, yes, it`s true, I was trying to get out of it. That was Jodi describing the cover-up after she had killed Travis Alexander. Welcome back. My co-host, Laura Baron. Darren Kavinoky, you were getting into the rope-a-dope, getting the momentum going. Do you want to finish that up?
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: That`s right. Well, I`m so glad you interrupted, Dr. Drew. It proves my point, because, here we are, it`s only a short time later, and I just have a hard time getting that same head of steam going, and that`s exactly what we saw in that courtroom. The judge never should have interrupted what -- I know, I`ll get there.
But wait, but wait, we all -- everybody knew that it was an act. And even if it wasn`t an act, the lawyer in a death penalty case going for the knockout punch never should have gotten interrupted just like the lights never should have gone out at the Super Bowl. It`s that X-factor and it should have played out naturally, not the judge interrupting.
PINSKY: Casey, was that you trying to ring in here?
CASEY JORDAN, PH.D., CRIMINOLOGIST: I`m going with Darren on this one. I loved the momentum. And you know, we have a saying in mediation because people cry all the time in mediations, and the saying is no one ever died of crying. Which means, just let people cry. And, it`s almost like a toddler who`s throwing a tantrum.
They get to that point where they`re just doing the little hoo, hoo, hoo and they`re going, are you done yet? Are you done yet? And I would have loved to see that moment with Jodi, where they just let her get to the point where she looks up and everyone knows it is a big joke. I really think --
JORDAN: She should have been cried out.
PINSKY: Hold on here. Allison, never on the stand. I think -- isn`t that her only chance of survival here, to make a connection with somebody on the jury?
ALISON TRIESSL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No way. Every time she opens her mouth, there`s a potential that she is going to get the death penalty. Why expose her to days upon days of slippery slope questions, many of which she either lies about, can`t answer or has these fake tears? No way. First rule, someone who`s lying, don`t let them testify.
PINSKY: I`m going to be like the judge. How many like the judge? Who, by the way, a reminder, the next segment, we`re going to get a report card in the courtroom, so hold on. I`m changing momentum. Abe, I want you to look at some more of her crying on the stand today and react. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you agree that you`re the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander`s throat from ear to ear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you also agree that you`re the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Abe, I got to tell you, I had a little trouble watching that. I mean, the person -- you know, really, she`s -- I mean, not that she doesn`t deserve to suffer, I think there was some degree of suffering there. What were your thoughts?
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: I agree.
ABE ABDELHADI, SPEAKS ONLY TO DR. DREW: Again, I didn`t feel a thing. I just watched it. She was busted. That`s all it was. Just like the pedophile that shows remorse and swears they`ll never do it again and they`ve got all these reasons, it`s the same thing with her. Crocodile tears, she`s busted. There`s nowhere else to go. And Martinez, I was expecting him to, you know, basically channel his inner Chris Rock as like, did you stab him? Did you cut his throat?
I mean, he was going up on her. And I was waiting for him to go up more, and I am upset with the judge for ending it early. If you`re bashing the fighter`s face in and blood is showing up from the nose, let him keep hitting the fighter. Don`t call an end. Don`t throw the towel in. Just keep the fight going.
And like you said, I really would have liked to watch her tears get dried up, and she looks around going, what, me worry? And everyone is looking at her, like, OK, you`re done crying, right? That would have been awesome.
KAVINOKY: Drew, can I ask, as a behavioral health expert, when she`s so covered up there as she`s doing the supposed -- and I`m using the air quotes of crying now -- she`s got her hair in front of her face and her hands. What do you make of that? Do you believe her?
PINSKY: No. I think there`s a certain amount of embarrassment and shame there, but it`s the shame of, you got me. Nowhere for me to go. I want to be small and disappear. Casey, do you agree with me on that?
JORDAN: I absolutely do. And you know, between the hands and the glasses and the hair in her face. Where`s her little half ponytail today? She loves the hair in her face. It`s just -- it`s very Casey Anthony, if you remember. I mean, we never put Casey on the stand, but she would do the rubbing of the eye thing from her defense table, and it was just so contrived and I don`t think she`s fooling anyone.
But if there is a sadness, Drew, you`re right, it`s from the shame of having been caught. Not for what she`s done, but being caught in her lies.
BARON: But hold on, Drew, couldn`t the reality of the situation just come in now?
PINSKY: Well, that`s part of why she`s in a panic. It kind of pours in on her. Casey, back me up on this. When she realizes she`s cornered, the reality pours in a bit like my sense of reality is suddenly being challenged.
BARON: Yes. It`s a lot of work keeping --
ABDELHADI: The reality poured in on those "48 Hours" interviews as well.
BARON: Yes. But she has to work -- denial up.
KAVINOKY: She`s so detached. She`s probably sitting in her cell now. She probably thinks she had a great day today. She`s so detached.
PINSKY: Oh, no, no. I think -- Casey, I think, if this woman were out in the world, she could easily kill herself, because I think that could easily happen. I think her sense of being caught and her sense of grandiosity and her sense of disavowal, all that is crashing in and she could hurt herself. You agree?
BARON: I agree, Drew.
JORDAN: Drew, I think it`s worth (ph). Think of her as an egg and with every bit of self-preservation brainwashing that she does to herself, she`s calcifying her shell. But that doesn`t mean that she`s immune from a sledgehammer. And Martinez is a sledgehammer today, and her shell cracked, I think, for the time first time.
Not that she feels bad, not that she`s -- tears are like -- I don`t think she was anywhere near a confession, but I think for the first day, she realized, oh, my God, this may not work. I think her defenses went down a little bit.
PINSKY: I agree with you. Thank you all of you. Thank you, criminal defense attorney, Alison Triessl. Thank you always to Abe. I appreciate it.
Next, sex, sobs, disbelief, explosive (ph) attorney. The judge has a lot on her place. I`ll ask my team how she is doing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss arias, please take the stand.
PINSKY (voice-over): Judge Sherry Stephens at the helm of the Jodi Arias murder trial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss Arias, you are still under oath, do you understand?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Martinez, you may continue.
PINSKY: And prosecutor, Juan Martinez, leading the state`s case to take Jodi down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest? That really must have hurt, right?
PINSKY: Some say Martinez is overly argumentative, taking too long, and that Judge Stephens is allowing him to take over the trial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you may do so.
PINSKY: Has Judge Sherry Stephens lost control of the courtroom or is she simply being cautious? What grade will you give her in this emotional murder trial?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, were you crying when you were shooting him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. We`re going to take the noon recess at this time.
PINSKY (on-camera): Back with my co-host for this week, Laura Baron. Laura, do you feel that the courtroom has been well-managed? What are your thoughts?
BARON: I don`t think so. I mean, I`ve got an influx of e-mails actually saying that girls are really not supporting this judge. They feel like they --
PINSKY: Did you say girls?
BARON: Yes. As a matter of fact, there is a group of girls, seven women in a condo building who watch this every night, and they had actually said Martinez was on a roll and the judge blew it. That she just gave her a break.
PINSKY: Well, interesting. I don`t know. Let me ask you one other question, you`re talking about girls. I just realized, you and I have been covering this for a couple weeks. I`ve not asked you this question. Do you know anybody or do you think you might have known someone who`s capable of something like this?
BARON: Oh my gosh, I hope not. You know? I mean, I think you start thinking back and you start thinking about those strange habits that people have. I didn`t notice any knives.
PINSKY: I`ve had patients that I know in certain circumstances where would have been capable of this but for the grace of God got treatment, took care of themselves, didn`t end up in those kinds of circumstances. Again --
BARON: What about friends, Drew?
PINSKY: Check yourself, everybody, just check yourself. If you`re feeling out of control, do something about it. We got Attorney Casey Jordan and Darren Kavinoky. Do either of you want to ring in on the judge`s performance?
JORDAN: Let Darren go first and I`ll sweep.
KAVINOKY: Well, I`ll give her an A-. The A is because a judge is like a referee. They`re there to make sure that the fight is a fair one, that the rules are obeyed, but they should not be influencing the outcome. You got to let the players play it on the field. And so, I like that she`s not been interrupting.
She`s been giving the lawyers lots of leeway. In the social media world, people may say too much leeway, but you`ve got to let the players play. The only minus is, I don`t like the interruption of the momentum, but you know, if I talk about that now, you`ll interrupt me and then my momentum goes away.
PINSKY: You had mentioned that once or twice there, as a matter of fact.
PINSKY: Casey, go right ahead.
JORDAN: I was all excited. I thought I was going to disagree with Darren that actually he stole all my lines. I happen to like a judge that`s -- it`s a referee. Listen, Jodi decided to put herself on the stand. She sucked up all those days with her minute, boring testimony. And I think the judge basically was like, this was your choice. I`m going to give you enough rope to hang yourself.
You want to do all of this, get ready for sledgehammer Martinez to come and back at you. This was your choice and there are consequences to it. And she is just going to --
PINSKY: I have my own judge to ring in here. Marcia Clark, the lead prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson trial. Marcia, you are going to play the adjudicator here right now and break the tie. What did you feel about the judge`s maintenance management of the courtroom?
MARCIA CLARK, LEAD PROSECUTOR, O.J. SIMPSON TRIAL: Well, it doesn`t sound like you have a tie, Drew. It sounds like you have two people who think she`s terrific. So --
PINSKY: Well, I mean, the unison. Break the unison.
CLARK: I`m out for lunch.
PINSKY: Yes. Go ahead.
CLARK: I will take the other side of this, Drew. And I don`t want to get too heavy-handed about this. I want to be fair. The truth of the matter is, what I don`t like in a judge is when they don`t really give consistent rulings on the objections. They have to control the flow of evidence. That`s their job.
And they`re not there to just let a lawyer take the reins and run with it and let somebody stay on the stand for eight days, repeating minutia and doing what we call cumulative questioning, which is over and over again, the same points and the same ideas. You know, enough already. And it`s up to the judge to control what the jury gets so that the jury does not get overwhelmed with a lot of nonsense or a lot of too much detail that doesn`t help them decide the case.
I want to compare and contrast this judge to the one in Casey Anthony. Judge Perry was amazing. That was a perfect jurist. That was a judge who controlled his courtroom, kept the lawyers in check, knew how to keep control of all of the rulings, knew how to control the flow of evidence and never wavered and he was consistent.
This judge, on the other hand, you hear objection, and she says, rephrase, rephrase and rephrase. OK. No, I don`t want to rephrase. I want to ask that question. And a judge, if you think that question is not appropriate, sustain the objection. So, my problem is that this kind of -- the eight days of direct, that did not have to happen, and it shouldn`t have happened.
There was a lot that I saw that was actually done repeatedly. And then some of the rulings that were completely -- didn`t make sense from a legal standpoint. For example, the prosecutor asks the question -- I`m just going to throw out any question, not the one he really asked -- were you there at 8:30? She says, I remember going home.
Were you there at 8:30? I remember seeing the clock. And then there`s an objection, asked and answered. And she sustains it. It`s not asked and answered. She hasn`t answered the question. Did you have to tell -- it`s the judge`s job at that point, then, to turn to the witness and say, answer the question. And she never did that. So, that`s why you have -- she`s actually very lucky, Drew, that these lawyers were easily controlled.
PINSKY: Darren is objecting, but I`m going to -- go ahead.
KAVINOKY: I don`t know. Do I get my momentum cut off? Well, then, number one --
PINSKY: Well, you get one --
PINSKY: Twenty seconds of it. Go.
KAVINOKY: So, you never want to have to do a trial twice. That`s the number one rule for being a judge and for being a prosecutor. You don`t want to have to relive this, and it risks having this brought back on appeal when you start cutting of the lawyers just like Drew wants to cut me off now.
PINSKY: Just like I shall at this moment, but --
PINSKY: Casey, very quick.
JORDAN: If the judge pulled the reins in harder, would we see Jodi`s true personality? Are we being able to see her because the judge is letting this just be free rein?
PINSKY: I think -- right, I think ultimately, it went the way it needed to go. I think that that excessive defense presentation was matched by a prosecution that was really skillful in slicing things up, although, it seemed excessive at times and it may be generated a little sympathy here and there. I think, ultimately, everyone came away with a pretty clear idea what`s going on here.
Thank you, Casey. Thank you, Darren. Thank you, Marcia. Of course, Marcia Clark, author of "Guilt By Degrees."
Next, she crumbled, cried and lied, and lied and lied and lied. Did the jurors buy Jodi`s current amnesia? We`ll ask my jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: No jury is going to convict me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?
ARIAS: Because I`m innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Those words may haunt Jodi, there (ph) I say to her grave. Certainly, after today`s testimony. Back, our co-host this week, relationship coach, Laura Baron. It`s time for "Dr Drew`s Jury." We`ve got Katie Wick back with us, and today, Austin Koval joins us. Both in court today. Austin, I believe, was a policeman, is now a law student. We want to hear his thoughts.
We`re going to go straight to a caller. First off, Renee wants to weigh in. She`s from Arizona as well. Renee, go ahead. Renee, now is your chance.
RENEE, ARIZONA: Have anybody asked the question if, he`s 6`7" and 280. She`s 5`2" and 120. What (INAUDIBLE) would allow a woman to stab him like that?
PINSKY: You mean, how did she pull it off. There`s been some video going around today of the differences in their body habits, and it is quite striking, Renee. It`s a good question. Let`s go to Katie. What do you think about that question?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": I think the fact that she had him in such a vulnerable position, and we learned today that she didn`t coerce him but she was the one that really suggested getting him in that vulnerable position. The fact that he was sopping wet. I don`t think the height -- it actually worked in the reverse when you listened to the testimony today, Dr. Drew, because she said that she took pictures of him because he was a lot stronger than he was before.
Well, if he was a lot stronger, he body slammed her, but yet, she could get away? So, once again, we see a complete contradiction from Jodi Arias. Her ship is sinking, and she has no lifeboat at all. She`s -- that`s it.
PINSKY: Katie, I think -- I assume you`re feeling the way we all do, seeing her cornered, as we`ve been saying like a cornered cat. But Austin, the first we`re talking to you. What are your thoughts on the trial, the performance of the various attorneys? Can you give us your thoughts?
AUSTIN KOVAL, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, you know, I mean, I agree with Katie, what she just said about that caller. What the trial, you know, when I came into this trial, I was not for the prosecution or against them or for the defense or against them, but as I watched the trial, watched the testimony, saw the evidence, I got to say I am behind the prosecution completely on this one.
It`s just no way that is self-defense, and I can definitely say that from my background. I`ve seen real cases of self-defense, and this does not add up whatsoever.
PINSKY: And you`re -- I know you`re talking about you having been a policeman. You`ve seen people be attacked. You see what people do. They put their hands up. They put their head down, and there`s nothing -- no evidence of any of that. There`s no evidence of anything of what she`s claiming, wouldn`t you say, Austin?
KOVAL: Exactly. Exactly. And definitely isn`t (ph). And a lot of things do not make sense. For one, you know, he supposedly went down and put his head down and charged at her. Well, think about this scenario. If someone is pointing a gun at you, are you going to bend down and put your head towards them? Most people, if they`re into a fight or if they`re into some kind of situation, they automatically go to protect their head.
Why is he going to go down and pretty much say, here`s my head, go ahead and shoot it? A lot of people are going -- go for the gun or they`re going to do what she`s saying.
PINSKY: And by the way, the direction of the bullet finally answered was different than what would have happened were she in that position. Now, Katie, I want you to tell us about the jurors, because you were looking at them today. I heard that they weren`t making any eye contact during all of the cornering of Jodi Arias.
WICK: They were not making eye contact with her at all today, maybe a couple of times, but you know what was fascinating is after Jodi -- when she came back for afternoon session, she wasn`t even looking at Juan Martinez. She was facing away. Her body was away. She looked like she was looking at the jury. She was not looking. She was looking over their head. She came in there like -- with a defeatist attitude.
And I just wanted to say real quick that, for me, this has been such an emotional day, Dr. Drew, for me. And I just went out with some of Travis` friends. The photo that they showed of the ten stab wounds to Travis back today was affected me -- it`s still in my mind. It affected me so much. And it`s so heartbreaking, and to see his sisters there just sobbing, and to see Jodi up there once again crying crocodile tears.
I don`t believe those were real tears, if there were tears. I hear from people watching on TV that there weren`t even tears. To stab him in the back ten times like that after all we heard about was how he treated her so well was heartbreaking.
PINSKY: Yes. Katie -- and thank you, Austin. Katie, and thank you for bringing that up. You know, our hear -- you know, the families must be suffering so much --
BARON: And brings it home.
PINSKY: Austin, I have to take a break, I`m sorry, but it`s why I think it`s important for the public, if they`re interested in this case, to see the pictures, because they tell the experience of looking at the brutality. I have seen them, and I wanted to share them because you see them and you just -- you want to be done with this woman. It`s massively brutal. It`s a slaughter and it`s beyond your imagination. So, Katie --
BARON: It tells the real story.
PINSKY: Katie, well, thank you tonight. Please, do what you can to take care of yourself.
WICK: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you
PINSKY: Got to take a break. Be right back.
PINSKY: Hey, Laura, I want to remind people tonight at 11:00 eastern time, I will be on "Showbiz Tonight" with Jane Velez-Mitchell. And tomorrow, Anderson Cooper special, "Sex, Lies, and Audiotape." And Anderson, thank you so much for being on the show tonight. The Jodi Arias trial 10:00 p.m. on CNN, Anderson. And Monday, we have interview with one of Travis`s friends who knew Jodi firsthand.
Thank you to all my guests. And a reminder that "Nancy Grace" begins right now.