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Did the Defense Save Jodi?
Aired March 4, 2013 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Day 14, Jodi Arias on the stand.
Robot Jodi. Lying Jodi. Crying Jodi. Which one showed up today? And how is the jury responding? I will read the signals.
Plus, is this the day team Jodi saved her life? They may have scored big points today.
UNIENTIFIED MALE: You`ve been miserable, like miserable and I`ve, like, raped you.
PINSKY: Give us a call and give them a grade.
And did a nurse really refuse to administer CPR to a dying woman?
911: We need to get CPR started. That`s not enough, OK?
GLENWOOD GARDENS: Yes, we can`t do CPR at this facility.
PINSKY: What if I told you she did what she had to do?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody. Welcome to my program.
The co-host tonight and for this week, Jenny Hutt. She is, of course, co- host of her own show on Sirius XM Radio.
Joining us as well, attorney at SpeaktoMark.com, Mark Eiglarsh; former prosecutor Loni Coombs, and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
Today was a chance for the defense to attempt to rehabilitate, in a fashion, Jodi Arias. It was bizarre.
Again, reminder some of this stuff tonight may not be for some of the younger folks in the audience. It`s a mix of sex and fantasy. Again, graphic material. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I felt like I began to love him early on but not in love like -- basically, I love all people. Soon I began to fall in love with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You finish this note to him by saying I love you. On June 15th or 16th of 2008, did you still feel that same unconditional love, to use your words, for Travis that you were feeling in April of 2008?
ARIAS: Well, I still had love for him, yes, and I was thinking now more in terms of eternity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But let`s maybe take a step back from eternity for a second. Looking at that quote, "I love you," how about today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would that be true?
ARIAS: Yes, it`s still true.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: I (EXPLETIVE DELETED) off every day, sometimes two, three times a day.
ARIAS: Are you serious?
ALEXANDER: There have been many times when you have been like, miserable and I`ve, like, raped you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that fantasy or is that reality?
ARIAS: That`s reality, but he doesn`t mean like rape like how the law defines it, I don`t think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have fantasies about being raped by Mr. Alexander?
ARIAS: Not raped, just maybe like ravished.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This particular act of him ejaculating on your face, is that something that you got physical enjoyment out of?
ARIAS: Not like physical pleasure, actually. Sometimes it hurt if it got in my eyes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Wow.
PINSKY: Wow. Wow.
"In Session" correspondent Beth Karas has been in the courtroom. I can`t do anything but laugh. This is just so bizarre. I can`t believe we`re listening to this in a courtroom.
And not only that, equally bizarre is a girl that stabs a man 30 times, loves all people, loves everybody.
But did the defense score any points today, Beth?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: I`ve had enough. I got to tell you, 14 days of this. I can`t listen to it anymore, and I have to wonder if the jurors are thinking the same thing. At one point, I saw one of the male jurors in the back row go like that with his hand when it was yet another sidebar.
But did they score any points? It`s much of the same material they`re going over again. However, a few little things came out, new things like a photo from May 31st, just days before she killed Travis Alexander where she hurt, she caught one of her fingers at work, and for some reason she took a picture of it. And so, that`s a new photo.
She insists she had injuries to her right hand, not her left. That the disfigured finger was caused by Travis Alexander in January, the previous January. And it wasn`t caused at the time she killed him.
So, you know, that was something new. And she described her journal entries as always positive because the law of attraction is always at work, and if she wrote something negative in her diary, then it would bring negativity to her --
PINSKY: Beth, hold on. I`ve got to stop --
KARAS: and that`s why she didn`t write anything about pedophilia or abuse.
PINSKY: I have to get to know my co-host a little bit here.
The law of attraction, the secret. I think that is one the biggest -- it`s like the way children think. It`s such a narcissistic --
HUTT: If you wish it, it will happen.
PINSKY: Look what happened to her, wishing things would happen.
HUTT: What was she wishing, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: She was wishing for Travis to love her always.
HUTT: Yes, well, she loved him unconditionally.
PINSKY: Right, of course, we learned that. She loves all people, though.
HUTT: But here`s my question is, if Jodi was so sexually degraded by Travis, why were there no injuries to his genitals? Why didn`t she stab him? Yes.
PINSKY: It`s an interesting question.
Cheryl Arutt, do you have any sense of that? Where she might have inflicted the wounds based in her feelings of aggression?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: That is an excellent question and an excellent point. And I think that if she were really angry at him for feeling that he`s sexually debased her, he would have. I have words on and commented about cases where the genitals were the first thing woman went for in this situation. So --
PINSKY: John Bobbitt --
ARUTT: Right. And one of them actually, Dr. Drew, yes.
PINSKY: But the point is they spare the life and don`t spare the -- I`m just saying.
ARUTT: Yes, that, too.
PINSKY: Mark, I would ask you this. It seemed to me Travis -- strangely enough, Travis seemed more flushed out today. Have we come full circle with Jodi?
I almost feel like the cross-examination didn`t happen. We`re back in the same soup we were in a week ago.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes, I agree with Beth Karas. I`m done. We`re done. The jurors are done.
We`re all done with this. Let`s move on. And I blame the defense, I blame the prosecution. They took what should have been done in a much shorter period of time and they dragged it out.
The defense did do some new things today that I thought were helpful for the defense, and again, I say this without everybody rolling their eyes -- by bringing her in front of the jury and the defense lawyer putting her arm around her. What they`re doing is they`re saying, look, I`m not afraid to touch her. Look, she`s human.
Ultimately, you`re going to decide whether she should live or die, potentially, and look, I like her. I trust her.
And that was the message that came out to the jurors, but ultimately, a conviction of just a matter of time.
HUTT: Quickly, Dr. Drew, don`t you feel like that`s what`s so crazy about this, that after watching her on the stand, we feel like maybe there`s compassion until you see the pictures?
PINSKY: I`m so glad you said that, because for me that`s why -- Mark, that`s why I wanted to show this audience those pictures, because when you see -- Jenny, have you actually seen the pictures?
PINSKY: Yes, when you see the pictures, all doubts are erased and the jury is seeing these pictures. I just wish people could see them, because when you se the brutality of what she did.
Loni, do you want to ring in on this?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, unfortunately, we still have Casey Anthony to look to, and that was a very brutal case, too, and people were able to find compassion for her there, too, however they sounded.
I agree with Mark. I think today, they went back to humanizing Jodi. And like you said, you almost forgotten the cross-examination even occurred.
The way they sanitized that sex tape to just do a mash-up of Travis` greatest sexual fantasies and taking out her willing culpability in that tape was really creative way, I`m surprised the judge even allowed it in that way.
COOMBS: That`s exactly right.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Let me jump in. Big difference between this case and Casey Anthony for many reasons, but it wasn`t that they had compassion for Casey Anthony. The jurors found a gaping hole in the prosecution`s case in that they couldn`t prove exactly how it took place.
EIGLARSH: This is different. There is no whodunit. She admitted that she did it. She failed to show that she feared bodily harm --
PINSKY: And --
COOMBS: But, Mark, this is all the age-old, love affair relationships gone bad. There may be some people on that jury who were in a bad relationship, too, and for some reason identify with her.
EIGLARSH: Anything is possible.
PINSKY: But they`re not calling this a crime of passion because it would have had to have happened in a much different proximity to her findings. Listen, put that information back up there. I want to tell the audience where they can go to see more pictures. Please put that in the prompter for me. I like to be able to read it.
It`s hlntv.com. More than 100 evidence photos from the trial are available there. Hlntv.com. I`m glad you guys reminded me that`s available there, because these pictures tell a story that sort of beg no conversation.
OK, we are with the Jodi arias trial until the very end. HLN is the only place for live testimony, closing arguments and, finally, the verdict.
Next up, which Jodi showed up in court today? Was it the lying one, the crying one, the sexy one, I don`t know which -- the poor librarian? Later, how did my jury react to today`s testimony?
Stay with us for all of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
ARIAS: He got angry and he crossed the room and started shaking me and said (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sick of you. And he was screaming really loud. Some of his spit got in my face. He wasn`t spitting on me, but as he was talking.
And he body slammed me on the floor at the foot of his bed.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Yes or no, were you able to see her face or not?
ARIAS: Part of it was a shadow from the TV behind her. So I saw part of it.
MARTINEZ: Judge, she`s not answering my question.
Could you see her face, yes or no?
ARIAS: Part of it.
MARTINEZ: So, is that a yes? Right.
MARTINEZ: Is that a yes?
MARTINEZ: And according to your version of events, you would acknowledge that stabbing was after the shooting, according to you, right?
ARIAS: Yes. I don`t -- yes, I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: And you would acknowledge that a lot of the stab wounds, and if you want we can count them together, including the ones for the head, were to the back of the head and to the back of the torso, correct?
ARIAS: OK. I didn`t count them, I don`t know. I`ll take your word for it.
When he swore at me, I just thought, you know, like I said, I didn`t want to continue with somebody like that to speak to -- like I didn`t want to have children with somebody who could speak to their mother that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Travis tell you that you`re beautiful on the inside and out as well? Is that what you`re saying there?
ARIAS: Yes, he said I was more beautiful on the inside.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: There is a look at the various personalities that Jodi has been showing to the jurors.
I`m back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
Jenny, we got a little Twitter response to our last commentary. Go ahead and read that.
HUTT: Yes. So, Brice says, yes, you must see the photos. I was on the fence with it. I saw the pics and had instant anxiety. This was a hate act from her.
PINSKY: Right? I mean, that`s when you see the brutality and the magnitude of what she did to this poor man --
PINSKY: -- it all seems of, I don`t know, silly.
But Cheryl -- Cheryl Arutt, Jodi has been inconsistent in the 14 days on the stand. You`re a forensic psychologist.
Is some of this -- let`s talk about the predominant affect you saw. Because I know there was one predominant issue that stood out for me. What stood out for you?
ARUTT: What stood out for me particularly when I watched today was just how false so much of the -- and shallow the emotion is. I mean, I`ve been working in the field of domestic violence for probably 20 years, and when women have actually experienced domestic violence and kill their batterer, they feel horrible about it. They tend to confess, they tend to cooperate with police. You can feel the terror that they had and the shame that they had -- not just about what they did, but shame about what was done to them by the abuser.
Today, I saw Jodi Arias talking about making entries about feeling very, very suicidal, supposedly, in her diary, and she was smirking. This is -- this is not consistent.
PINSKY: Yes, I think you`re right, Cheryl. I think that`s the predominant issue is the lack of connectedness to her affect.
Joining me now on the phone is a DR. DREW ON CALL producer, Bill Hinkle. He`s been in the courtroom every day. He`s watched Jodi`s reaction --- the jury`s reaction to Jodi.
Now, Bill, observers are starting to recognize some of these issues. Are these 11 men and seven women, do they have the sort of predominant sense that we do, that the only affect that seems genuine is when she`s cornered and had then she has a little panic attack and cries?
BILL HINKLE, PROUDCER, DR. DREW ON CALL (via telephone): I think so, Drew. What`s more evident than anything as this trial goes on is how over these jurors are listening to her, today especially.
Most of the men, all but one stopped taking notes. They were fidgeting. One guy literally had his head planted in his hands the entire day. One guy had his head between his knees at one point. So --
COOMBS: Was he nauseous? Yes. Why?
PINSKY: Loni, it`s sort of a protective move.
HINKLE: I`m sorry; say that again.
Bill, how about the difference between the men and the women? I`m not surprised the men are checked out. Women don`t seem to understand how much men are crept out by this woman. How are the women responding?
HINKLE: You know, the women seem to be taking more notes.
HINKLE: They`ve all been pretty good not reacting to any of the evidence. Two jurors, juror number three and juror number five, and they`re two of the jurors closest to Jodi, they seem to be taking the most notes.
There is another woman juror, number 10, who I have seen look over at Travis` family a couple times. She`s really the only juror that I`ve seen look over at the family.
So the women do seem a little more, I guess, engaged than the men.
PINSKY: Invested, yes.
There are three and five, the two, one with sort of the red hair and the other one that`s, I guess, not -- maybe a little older that sit more towards Jodi?
HINKLE: Yes. Juror number three, I believe, is in her mid-40s, and juror number five is in her 30s. And yes, she is definitely the most prolific note-taker in the courtroom.
PINSKY: Well, Bill, thank you for that update. We`re going to check in with our own jury that we developed a relationship with from inside the courtroom. We`ll talk to them later in the show.
Mark, I`ve got about 20 seconds. Do you have any reaction to what Bill told us?
COOMBS: I think --go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Just because they`re taking notes doesn`t mean that they believe a single word flowing from her lips. Christ, they could be taking notes to write a book. They could be saying, I cannot believe her reaction isn`t normal.
PINSKY: OK, Mark, let Loni ring in. Go, Loni.
COOMBS: I also think this is going to play more to women if it plays at all, because I think anybody who will identify her will be women who have been in bad relationships.
PINSKY: Yes, yes, yes.
Next up, I`ve got Travis` friend. He joins us. He met Jodi, I think before he met Travis, and he knew immediately something was off with Jodi. I think he called her the girl with the crazy eyes.
And later, I want you to grade the defense. Our panel will weigh in on how well team Jodi did today, and you`ll have a chance to do the same.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAVIS: I mean, it`s going to be like legitimate porn?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Having him give you this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and making, quote-unquote, "legitimate porn", was that something you were willing to do to please him?
ARIAS: I was willing to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jodi and her lawyer attempting to paint Travis as someone who would go so far as to initiate making a porno.
I`m back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
Joining us now, Josh Denne. He`s a friend of Travis who knew Jodi as well.
Now, Josh, Jodi introduced herself to you at a work-related event. We talked to a lot of you guys from that same organization. That was in 2005.
Tell me what your gut reaction was to her then?
JOSH DENNE, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Well, her -- something in her eyes, she just seemed a little off to me, and my gut reaction right then was there was something a little strange about Jodi and I really couldn`t get away fast enough from her. HUTT: Something strange? Because I`ve always heard men say things like, she`s a little crazy, but then they sort of wink, nudge and giggle like it`s a good thing she`s a little crazy.
PINSKY: Like she`d be good in bed.
PINSKY: Was it that kind of crazy?
DENNE: It wasn`t that kind of crazy. I can`t describe it. It`s just that feeling that sometimes you can get in your heart when you meet somebody that is a little off, and that`s the feeling I got when I met her.
And interestingly, it was the same feeling I got when we were in Cancun and we found that Travis had, in fact, been killed, and instantaneously in my mind, I`m like, Jodi Arias, it must be her. And all of us that were friends with him, they said the same thing, like Josh, I thought the same thing, that`s how I felt, everyone, from Jacob, Chris, Dave. All of us were saying the exact same thing about her, because of that feeling. I think we all shared it.
PINSKY: And, Josh, you actually went so far as to tell Travis to keep his distance? How did he react to that?
DENNE: You know, he -- he kind of played it off. I think a lot of us were saying the same thing, and I know Chris Hughes (ph) is urging him to get away from her, and a lot of us were.
It`s just she -- there was this drama between that situation. It wasn`t Travis, you know. He was having a real hard time. It was like, hey, look, get away.
PINSKY: Josh, you guys actually -- didn`t you used to call him the 40- year-old virgin or something? And if that`s true, did you get the sense that this girl was really digging him into the sexual pit that he ended up in?
DENNE: Here`s my take on the situation: it`s so out of character, all the things she`s creating to defend her horrendous crime. She`s creating about Travis to paint him in this horrible light so she can justify what she did.
But for all of us that knew him, for any of his family members and friends that got to spend time with Travis, that wasn`t him at all. He wasn`t some sexual deviant. The running joke was he was the 30-year-old virgin. He was just a blast to be around.
So any sexual conductor, any information was introduced by Jodi to Travis. And because of his inexperience with the sexual situation, I think it just kind of dove him down that dark pit.
PINSKY: Yes, that is very, very interesting.
Josh, we`re going to talk to you some more here in just a second. I`ve got to take a break. I want to hear from Loni and Mark, too, about how they think Travis is being portrayed. I think today was -- Travis sort of came into the play, too.
Now, reminder, in order for me to get the reminder, though, I need to be able to see it, please?
We`re sticking with the Jodi Arias trial until the end. Keep it right here on HLN for live coverage and analysis day and night.
Next up, when does fantasy become something entirely else?
And later, why did one of my jurors, we`re going to give here later, actually -- excuse me -- actually give a note to one of the defense attorneys? You`ll hear about that.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard about the first instances -- instance, excuse me -- of anal sex occurring after your baptism, right?
ARIAS: That`s right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t that anything you asked for?
ARIAS: No, I didn`t ask for that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was lubrication used during this encounter?
ARIAS: Not to my knowledge. I think he might have spit on his hand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this a painful encounter for you?
ARIAS: Yes, it was painful that time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. Wow.
That was Jodi. We`re encountering yet another allegedly painful sexual encounter with Travis. Jenny Hutt, my co-host, joins me this week. Jenny, we heard Josh talked about his friend`s feeling about Travis.
PINSKY: I felt like in court today, the questions about what Travis is or is not capable of doing that a little clearer to me, because he was talking about his --
HUTT: Yes. He`s a dirty, naughty guy, it seems.
PINSKY: So, Josh -- so, Jenny had the same kind of reaction here. Is that just where she took him or do you think maybe that sort of predilection was there?
DENNE: I believe that`s exactly where she took him. I mean, it just -- it wasn`t in our conversations. Anyone who knew him would say, you know what, when we all talked that wasn`t something he talked about all the time. I think that`s why he tried to keep her more of a secret.
HUTT: But Josh, But Josh, here`s the thing. How many people really talk openly about their sexual --
PINSKY: Males, you know, joke around about stuff. And they will -- during the break, we got a sense of this room.
HUTT: We did, yes.
PINSKY: Everyone was talking about their -- you know what I mean?
PINSKY: So, I kind of backed Josh up. We actually have a question from a caller. Laurie in Connecticut. Laurie, do you want to ask Josh something? Lori, you there?
LAURIE, CONNECTICUT: Josh, I was just curious, after what happened in court today, which was horrible, how do you feel about your friend being defamed the way he was by her?
HUTT: You know, I think like a lot of people -- I can`t believe we have to sit through more of this fictitious babble that she`s creating. I just want to throw something at the TV and hope that it hits her in her forked tongue.
LAURIE: That`s exactly what I wanted to do, too, but I have to buy a new one and it`s too expensive.
PINSKY: Laurie, Josh actually said to one of my producers that he wants to sit in a courtroom and throw a baseball at her head. Is that right, Josh?
DENNE: I would love to do that. I mean, it`s just -- and I`m not violent like that. It`s just I can`t believe what she`s spewing out of her mouth, and all of it is just -- it`s all concocted in her brain to try to take people away from the reality that she brutally murdered a great human being.
PINSKY: OK. Mark, I want to go to you. Is this unnecessary or did the defense do a good job by bringing this all out today?
MARK EIGLARSH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s thoroughly unnecessary. Travis wasn`t my dear friend like he was with Josh, but I feel the same way. I`d want to kill her if she said these things about a friend of mine. However, keep in mind, that if he`s a sexual deviant or not is thoroughly, in my opinion, and legally, irrelevant.
EIGLARSH: The next level is, is he abusive, OK? Let`s assume that he is, and there`s no evidence of that. That also does not get you to where you need to be, which is at the time that she did what she did that she reasonably feared death or great bodily harm. It`s such a vertical leap that his sex life to me becomes distracting and irrelevant and arguably offensive.
PINSKY: But Lonnie, it seems like they`re doing that intentionally to take us away from the fact that they can`t answer those questions specifically that Mark is bringing up.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. And the only reason they even get to it is because she`s claiming self-defense, and somehow, their theory is that starting with this sexual relationship, you build on abuse, then physical abuse, then the violence to where she felt like she had to defend herself.
But I am so with Mark, and that`s why I think a lot of men on this jury, they listen to that sex tape and they`re like, so what. Move on.
COOMBS: We`re done with all this. There`s way too much sex. Let`s get to the crying. Let`s get to the killing.
PINSKY: And yet, Cheryl, I think you might agree that I think you said even that somebody in that jury pool might have a sensitivity to these issues or identify in some stronger way, and that`s at least enough to keep her from the death penalty.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think that I`ve said that I think that`s what the defense is hoping for and what they`re trying to go for, but I must say, I`m also with Mark and Loni on this. I think that in order to get self-defense, this team needs to really establish Jodi Arias as a battered woman.
PINSKY: Which they can`t. That`s why battered women are upset with her.
PINSKY: Battered women are just offended by her. Josh, let me ask you this. Let`s get to the gun. Did Travis have a gun?
PINSKY: Was he a gun guy?
DENNE: No. He wasn`t a gun guy.
PINSKY: Did he ever talk about guns? Would he worry about intruders? Was he -- I mean, where -- why would he even -- is there any reason you could think of that he would have a gun?
DENNE: No. Not at all.
PINSKY: Not his gun?
DENNE: Not his gun. No way. Didn`t have a gun. You know, he just -- that was not him. Travis was an open guy. He loved people. He believed in people. He was not someone who`d have a gun in his home at all.
PINSKY: I wonder if we have any other callers. He`s a pretty interesting guy. I see a caller coming up there. Pat in Texas -- Pat.
PAT, TEXAS: Hello, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Pat.
PAT: My question is for Josh. Josh, how long after you met Jodi did you realize she was weird and not a fit partner for Travis?
DENNE: Instantly. The first time I met her, I felt that way, and then, again, when I saw them together, I felt that way again.
PINSKY: Did you feel anything different seeing her when you first met her as opposed to seeing them together? Was it even more alarming?
DENNE: You know, I don`t say it was more alarming. It was alarming enough to stick with me in my mind when I first met her. When I met her again or actually saw her with Travis, it was off to me, but it was like, OK, well, you know, Travis is, you know, with her. I mean, she was an attractive woman, so it was like, OK, well, maybe I missed something or whatnot.
DENNE: But as time progressed, it became more and more obvious that they were not a good fit.
Dawn in Kentucky. Dawn, do you want to ask Josh something?
DAWN, KENTUCKY: Yes. Hello, Drew. Hello, Josh.
DAWN: What I would like to say is, did he ever mention to Josh about the drama that Jodi brought to his life?
PINSKY: The drama. Did he mention the drama that she was creating?
DENNE: Not precisely. He was just, you know --
PINSKY: Trying to get away, I think.
DENNE: He was just trying to get away from her.
PINSKY: Yes, eventually -- and that`s what I think what the caller means, that he was, you know, preoccupied with getting away from this girl, and that`s the drama.
DENNE: He was having a hard time getting away from her, and I get it, you know? She was introducing all -- I think she was just introducing all these different sexual activities to try to reel him back in, and as a man, it was hard for him to get away from it.
HUTT: But he had to have a level of interest to still be engaged in it.
DENNE: -- what are you going to do?
HUTT: That one is pretty simple.
PINSKY: Josh, thank you, Josh Denne. Thank you for giving us some more insight. Hopefully, we`ll have you back in soon.
Next up, it is time for report card for the defense. Are they making the grade? We`re going to actually grade them. And later, my jurors are back. What did they think of all the sex tape stuff today? Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the moment that Jodi would ever even text another man or talk to another man, Travis would instantly degrade her, yell at her, embarrass her, and humiliate her.
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: And he wanted to show up, get out of his car -- sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No need to apologize, Jodi. There are times when you`re way up here on this pedestal, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there were other times you`re down on the ground being kicked, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So how is -- let`s call them team Jodi. How are they doing? It is time for Drew`s report card. That was Jodi`s attorneys, Kirk Nurmi and Jennifer Wilmott. They were at the podium. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and our guests. Cheryl Arutt, first to you, how is the defense doing?
ARUTT: I got to go first, huh? OK.
PINSKY: Oh, by the ways, no grade until I hear what your opinions are, then later, I`ll get the actual grade. So, go ahead.
ARUTT: OK, thank you. Thank you. OK. My opinion is that Kirk Nurmi and Jennifer Wilmott really have failed to convincingly establish Jodi arias as a battered woman, which is what the defense is really hinging on. I don`t see the shame. I don`t see the guilt. I don`t see the remorse or the terror, and real battered women who kill, they don`t remember every little detail that happened in their lives except for the killing.
They don`t call the man that they just killed after they killed him and invite him out to plays and things, and they certainly don`t go running off for a booty call after the murder and manage to convince the other man that there`s absolutely nothing wrong.
PINSKY: Right, and get a gigantic sort of cover-up going. Not only that, most women that get caught in these situations are literally caught. They have children with the man they`re financially dependent on. Their living environment is interwoven. She had none of that. She was hundreds of miles away.
ARUTT: I`m not buying it.
PINSKY: Mark, I know you`re always at a loss for words. You have very few opinions, but maybe, you can share some of your thoughts.
EIGLARSH: Why, thank you, Drew. I`ll be happy to. What`s really tough is to know what they`re responsible for and what she`s responsible for. Let`s assume for purposes of the report card that they`re controlling the entire defense, so all decisions were theirs. Keep in mind, she`s somebody who would say, no, you put the sex tape in no matter what you think.
But let`s just assume that they`re responsible for it. That was a colossal mistake, in my opinion. She had a shot of convincing some people that maybe she was forced to do this, but once we heard that tape, we knew by her introduction of K-Y into the relationship, by her willingly going along with everything, she was no abused virgin.
On the other side, let me just say, I like how they`ve humanized her. As annoying and as much as you want to wring her neck, it`s going to be tough for them to want to kill her upon her conviction. I`ll give my grade in a moment.
PINSKY: OK. All right. Loni, the K-Y defense. Follow on.
COOMBS: Yes. I love Mark. Mark, I think you`re so brilliant, but you`re so wrong on this phone sex tape. Remember, on this case, you`re starting with a confessed killer, a confessed liar, and those crime scene photographs, which we all look at and say guilty, we`re done. That`s what they`re starting with as the defense.
Forget the presumption of innocence in this case. They don`t have that. We all know who did it. So, they only have to do what they have -- they can only work with what they have. And by using that phone sex tape, right off the bat, we know whatever type of relationship it was, whether it was normal, abnormal, sick, whatever, it was equal.
I mean, they were both involved. It was consensual. They were both using each other, whatever it was. So, I think it was really smart of them to put that phone sex tape in. And by putting her on the stand and letting her talk ad nauseam, she has woven a story that people -- some women, some men maybe may feel like, this is a bad relationship, I relate to it.
COOMBS: So, I think they have humanized her and I think they have at least made it a more of an equal relationship between the victim and the defendant.
PINSKY: Jennifer, I`m going to let you give a grade first.
HUTT: Yes. Listen, I don`t think -- I don`t feel like she did this in self-defense. So, I don`t think the defense --
PINSKY: So, they`ve done a poor job?
HUTT: Yes. They`ve done a poor job.
PINSKY: So, give a grade.
HUTT: OK. I`m going to give them a C.
PINSKY: C. OK. First grade comes in as a 74.
HUTT: Yes, 74.
PINSKY: Cheryl, what`s your grade for the defense?
ARUTT: Well, I got to give the defense team a D+
PINSKY: A 68. Somebody in the control room, please add these things up for them. I want to get an average at the end. Loni, your grade for the defense?
COOMBS: Well, I tell you, I don`t think there was any chance of getting self-defense. I think it`s a win for the defense if they save her from the death penalty. So, right now, I think they`re getting about a B-, because I think --
COOMBS: -- something to hang their hat --
PINSKY: So, 80 to 82. We`re around a 76, overall.
PINSKY: Mark, break -- come one. Let`s bring this grade point average up a little bit for this defense. I don`t think they`re doing that bad a job. This girl is probably not going to get the death penalty.
EIGLARSH: Well, I had it at a D+, but I bumped it up to a C- the minute the female defense attorney wrapped her arm around Arias and humanized her today.
EIGLARSH: So, she got a bump up for that.
HUTT: That was a good move.
PINSKY: All right. The average today for our defense team is a C-. These poor guys -- if they were undergrads, they`d never get into law school.
Thank you, guys.
Next up, no one knows the Arias jury up close and personal like my jurors. They`ve seen everything. They will take us into the courtroom. I think that`s Katie there in that picture.
And later, the 911 call of a nurse refusing to perform CPR on a dying woman. Why I think she may have done what she had to do. Be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could Jodi -- Miss Wilmott, could we see you, for lack of a better term, recreate the pose we see in exhibit 452? If you could turn.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time now for "Dr. Drew`s Jury." My co-host this week, Jenny Hutt, is still with us. Joining us now, Katie Wick, our resident juror. Katie is with us all the time here. And back with us again, high school student, Kjerstin Pinc. Now, Kjerstin, I want to go to you first, because I heard interesting thing story that you actually gave a letter to Jodi`s attorney, Wilmott, today. I want to know why and what did it say?
KJERSTIN PINC, DR. DREW "JUROR": You know, I just kind of inspire -- she`s inspired me. If I were to go into the legal field, I would be a criminal defense. That`s just what I think I have a passion for. So, I just expressed that to her and that I respected her and that`s pretty much what it said. And I had a few questions for her, but other than that, it was really brief. So --
PINSKY: Kjerstin, now, during the break, Jennifer and I were talking, and we were like -- it makes us nervous with you sitting -- you and I talked about this before, Kjerstin -- makes us nervous when you`re sitting through all these tapes, these horrible, horrible tapes. And as your mom --
HUTT: Yes. I`m a mom. I have a 12-and-a-half-year-old daughter. And I know you`re 17, but, how does your mom feel about you listening to all this and being in that courtroom?
PINSKY: And I`m going to follow on the heels of that with maybe now that you`re in there doing a term paper, I heard, on domestic violence, and this really isn`t a domestic violence case, but then, you`ve been inspired to be an attorney. So --
HUTT: Well, that part is good. Yes.
PINSKY: That part is good. So, go ahead and answer Jennifer`s question, Kjerstin.
PINC: Well, it makes me uncomfortable, and I think -- my mom doesn`t necessarily want me to hear all of what`s being said, but I think I`m going to learn it sometime or another. So, I mean --
HUTT: Well, I hope you ask your mother questions.
PINSKY: Yes. Go to your mom -- that is a great thing -- go to mom to clarify stuff and talk about men and women and how they relate to each other and what could be learned from this. Katie, over to you. What about today? How did the jury respond?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh, boy. Well, I think when in doubt, pull the sex tape out. That`s what I was thinking today.
WICK: It`s so -- I mean, the jury is so tired. There is no note-taking. Dr. Drew, they just sit there and it`s almost -- you could just see the expression on their face. The most exciting part of the day was when Juan Martinez got up and he started going back to Jodi and asking questions.
HUTT: It`s 14 days of her being on the stand. How could they not be tired?
WICK: And it`s this just now, we`re back to the sex -- and this isn`t a sex crime. And I think I will say, though, I give Nurmi credit. He`s doing a very, very good job of deviating away from the fact this is a murder case, not a sex crime case. So, if he`s going to rehash everything again for seven days old, boy, help us --
PINSKY: God help us, indeed. I`ve got a caller named Theresa. She wants to ring in about the defense and also give her own grade for the defense. Go ahead, Theresa.
THERESA, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I give the defense a C. I don`t think they`re doing so well. I think that Jodi Arias hung herself last week when she was on the stand with the D.A. and they`re not doing such a good job to redeem her today.
PINSKY: That seems to be the going grade for the defense. Now, Kjerstin, did you see the images of what Jodi did to Travis? I`m curious how you responded to that.
PINC: Yes, I had seen them. What was that?
PINSKY: Yes. I want to know how you feel about that. Are you OK? I mean, I -- you know, here`s my kind of feeling. We`re protecting our audience from these pictures because they`re so awful. You`re a 17-year- old and you had to look at them. How did they affect you?
PINC: Yes. I mean, they`re awful. They`re brutal. I mean, I can`t imagine anyone ever doing that to someone. It`s -- I`m just trying to process it, still. I mean, it`s so terrible. I can`t imagine it.
HUTT: Right. And you can`t come up with a reason why she did -- nothing you`ve heard gives reason for her to do this, right?
HUTT: Hence the C.
PINC: I can`t imagine someone ever having an excuse for that.
HUTT: Right, exactly. Out of the mouths of babes.
PINSKY: Out of mouths of babes. Said it precisely right. Bettie in Florida. Do you have another grade for the defense?
BETTIE, FLORIDA: I give them an F. I thought they were weak and boring. You add it (ph). And, she talks like a 12-year-old girl.
PINSKY: Well, when she is in the sort of provocative encounter, she does have this little girl voice which is kind of a trauma sign. It`s interesting. I agree with you. She sounds very immature in those tapes. OK, guys --
WICK: Dr. Drew, it`s --
PINSKY: Katie, finish up.
WICK: I was just going to say -- I was just going to say if she thinks it`s boring on TV, imagine being in the courtroom.
PINSKY: Yes. And -- you guys at least can come and go. How about if you`re the jury, you have your life interrupted, you`re incarcerated by this thing. I think with time, they`re going to get increasingly angry with that defense team. OK. Thank you, ladies.
Next up, a story that has outraged many of you. An 87-year-old woman dies after a nurse -- a nurse -- refuses to give her CPR. You hear the 911 call. My comments. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand. I am a nurse. But I cannot have our other senior citizens who don`t know CPR --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will instruct them. Is there anyone there who`s --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot do that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I don`t understand why you`re not willing to help this patient.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`ve got to say, I don`t understand that, either. That was part of a 911 call. My co-host, Jenny Hutt, is with me between a nurse who refused to give CPR to an 87-year-old woman who needed help and the dispatcher. The dispatcher was a more help. The nurse said she was following company procedure. Apparently, she did nothing wrong legally and I think was protecting her legal liability --
HUTT: Yes, but Dr. Drew, if you were in this nurse`s position, you would sign something saying you would not, in fact, perform CPR but you do, in fact, know CPR, what would you`ve done?
PINSKY: I could not not do it. I don`t know how I could stop myself from intervening. I don`t understand how a nurse with a license -- we don`t know if she`s an RN or an LPN --
PINSKY: We don`t know. But anyone that takes an oath, has a license, you just do it. Yu just do it.
PINSKY: Now, I understand that -- I don`t understand why she would sign an agreement with the place that would ask her not to intervene on somebody. I don`t understand that part. I think we need to get more information about why that place took that policy. It`s probably to limit liability.
HUTT: Of course, it`s to limit liability, but I`m glad that you would, of course, do it.
PINSKY: Oh my God!
PINSKY: Not only your ethical obligation but your concern for humanity has to always take precedent. Always, always, always. And you take the liability, you deal with that later.
HUTT: Of course.
PINSKY: What you do is what`s right. Most people I know that work in health care, I can`t think of one who wouldn`t. So, you`re an attorney, though, I just found out.
HUTT: Yes. I`m also a lawyer.
PINSKY: So, we`re going to talk more about these kinds of things as we go along. Thank you for being here. Good job.
HUTT: Thank you for having me, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: We`ll have you all week. I want to remind people that the only place with complete coverage of the Jodi Arias trial is right here on HLN. We are with it until the jury comes back with a verdict and coverage begins at 12:00 p.m. eastern time every day. So, be sure to tune in to HLN and go to HLN.com for a lot of the questions and materials you can`t get from television.
Thank you to all my guests, my co-host, Jenny Hutt, as I said. Reminder -- and of course, the callers and viewers, and we`ll see you tomorrow. NANCY GRACE begins right now.