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The Jodi Arias Trial

Aired March 5, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Day 15, Jodi Arias on the stand.

Jodi creeped these people out. They even warned Travis about her. So why didn`t he listen to them? They`re here with some scary Jodi stories.

And video of Travis and Jodi you will not see anywhere else. What did Jodi`s behavior reveal today?

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: He`s angry and I remember him coming after me and he was coming after me, and he was coming after me and he wasn`t stopping.

PINSKY: The last ditch attempt to spare her from a guilty verdict and perhaps death row.

ARIAS: Maybe I did have a choice. I could have just let him do what he was going to do.

PINSKY: Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening.

Jenny Hutt from Sirius XM Radio is my co-host this week.

And, Jenny, we have an exclusive video. It`s unbelievable. It`s of Jodi Arias, Travis Alexander. We`re going to show it to you shortly.

The couple who brought the video is going to be here as well. They`re sitting on the couch. He`s talking about a near-death experience he had and Jodi is sort of sitting there with this look -- you can`t believe the look on her face.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: I can`t wait to see it.

PINSKY: It`s something -- you got to stick with this. So, please stay with us for that piece of video.

But first, joining us is Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at Criminal defense attorney Lauren Lake, she is on the phone. We`re having difficulty with her Skype. And Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me." We call her the human lie detector.

Jenny, you know her.

HUTT: Love her.

PINSKY: Here, I want to ask everybody, did Jodi make any sense to you guys today? Watch this.


ARIAS: I wish I could turn back the clock and make some different decisions. If I could go back in time, I would choose differently with regard to Travis, of course. It was more just like I`m haunted by the love that he expresses toward me that keeps me -- well, I stayed with him out of my own free will, but I felt like it kept me hooked even though he wasn`t, like, forcing me to stay with him.

I was worried that if I just left town that he would never do it, or - - but I didn`t want to push him but I wanted him to do it. So -- but it`s his life.

KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You referenced Mr. Alexander`s "Hottie Biscotti".

ARIAS: When Juan said pet name, I was thinking T-Dog. That`s why I didn`t (ph) forget. It wasn`t a pet name that I gave him, but it`s one I adopted that he`d have prior to meeting him. So, Hottie Biscotti is actually something that developed when I worked at Montana Inn, so we started saying biscotti and biscotti, and it went with hottie.

NURMI: Travis and this nickname T-Dog.

ARIAS: He was screaming at them and he was just angry. I mean, it was like he was screaming at the leash.

NURMI: Why you chose to introduce Mr. Alexander to K-Y?

ARIAS: Some of the activities that he wanted to do were painful without it. And he was not willing to go to the store.

NURMI: Anal sex was not a passion of yours; is that correct? Would it be fair to say that he had an all-access pass to your body?



PINSKY: So I get it, Jenny. Anal sex isn`t her passion and she killed him because he wouldn`t K-Y.

HUTT: Right.

PINSKY: Right? That`s what happened.

HUTT: And that`s a good reason.

PINSKY: Well, if it`s a good reason in your mind, we need to talk after the commercial break.

"In Session" correspondent Beth Karas is covering the trial.

Beth, it seems that Jodi and attorney hadn`t really -- have they gone over it? They hadn`t really agreed on the game plan? I mean, for instance, she talks about him getting angry and banging on the steering wheel and he goes, oh, are you scared? And she said, no, not really. Not really.

Did it seem that way in the courtroom as well?

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Yes, but, you know, I kind of noticed that stuff throughout. Now, he didn`t really have time to prepare her because -- well, maybe he went to the jail over the weekend, but during the evenings, there is no time to prepare her, so there wouldn`t have been time last night to this morning unless they met an hour early. But I saw Kirk Nurmi walked into court and it wasn`t too much before court started today.

But, you know, she, basically, I think, was distancing the jury from that cross-examination where a lot of harmful things came out. So, she had a couple more days to sort of go over her direct examination again, trash Travis Alexander, remind the jury that there had been four alleged incidents of domestic violence, go over them again, go over the killing and what she remembered of it and why she starts getting foggy when people yell at her.

So, she had an opportunity to do all that, but she injected a couple of new things that might hurt her like the gun was in a holster. So that`s a new fact that we hadn`t heard before.

PINSKY: It sounds like the way she would confabulate to the investigating officers, just add a little detail here and there that clouds the story even more.

Jenny, you were disturbed by seeing her on the stand today, right?

HUTT: I was. I felt like I couldn`t understand what he had done to make her be so afraid. At one point, he talked about his tying her up when they were having sex.

PINSKY: Right.

HUTT: But she was asked, did it hurt you? Was your blood circulation cut off? She said, no, I could take my arms in and out easily.

What`s scary about that, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: He wouldn`t buy the K-Y. He wouldn`t buy the K-Y.

Lauren, we haven`t heard from you on the Arias trial coverage yet. I want to get your thoughts on the trial. Go ahead.

LAUREN LAKE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via telephone): You know what? Today, Dr. Drew, it was just nightmare cringe-worthy testimony for me. I don`t like the way she`s coming across. She`s not likeable, relatable or even believable with all of these lying.

And more importantly, the poor defense attorney kept leading her to the water and she`s looking at him like, (INAUDIBLE) I wasn`t thirsty. She was not even going with him and help her case. She`s pretty much a hostile witness.

PINSKY: She`s a hostile witness.

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: You`re an attorney, too, Jenny, right?

HUTT: I am, yes. The defense attorney with his client, she should not be a hostile witness. Typically, it`s the other way around.

PINSKY: I would think not.

Mark, do you agree with that?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, hostile? I don`t know. I wouldn`t say hostile. I would just say ineffective.

You know, she didn`t come across well. This case was over the minute she was told that her handprint was found on the wall. She had to change her story.

I don`t think that she thinks she can really pull this off. I think she`s trying to avoid a death sentence. Life in prison -- I think she`s already selected her next five prison "American Idol" songs, you know?


PINSKY: Mark, is self-defense the only defense they could go for? Or what about insanity? I heard at one point she was kind of being considered for that as a defense.



EIGLARSH: That would be insane, because it`s argued in about 1 percent of all felony cases. It works in about 3 percent. What she`d have to say and what all defendants would have to say is, I did this abhorrent, horrific act, but I just didn`t know right from wrong, so I want you to send me to a hospital where maybe within months doctors might set me free saying that I`m OK, avoiding a death penalty and a life in prison.

It just isn`t going to work with facts like this where she clearly had consciousness of guilt. She knew. She did too much.

PINSKY: And the fatality of all this.

And now, Janine, we`re going to have a video later of Jodi and Travis together. I`m dying to have you review it. So, I want everyone to hang on with that.

But, Janine, your thoughts of Jodi on the stand today.

JANINE DRIVER, DECEPTION EXPERT: You know, I got to tell you, there was some inconsistencies with her behavior. We see the defense attorney come closer. How far were you from Travis? Can you estimate?

As the defense attorney, Dr. Drew, and Jenny Hutt, who I love dearly, best co-host ever with you, I`d say, defense attorney comes closer, we don`t see any flinching, we don`t see a micro-expression of contempt or sadness or fear, nothing on her face. She doesn`t even move back.

Listen, anyone who`s been battered before, if you are recreating a time where you think your life is on the line and someone is coming closer, a big man like we have in our defense attorney here is coming closer, demonstrating and taking you back to that night, that horrible night where your life is on the line, then you would at least have a micro-expression. A 15th of a second on your face, you`d create a little distance, we lean towards people and ideas that we like, and we create distance from people we try to stay away from.

Even when we`re just recreating it, we didn`t see it today.

PINSKY: I know. I think about a dog that has been beaten. If you come at a dog --

HUTT: Howl --

DRIVER: It would be flinching.

PINSKY: Immediately they flinch. And people do the same damn thing.

Beth Karas, thank you very much. We are sticking with the Arias trial.

A reminder here on HLN, until it ends, keep it here for live coverage and analysis day and night.

Next up, is there something about Jodi`s behavior that no one has talked about yet? Janine, our human lie detector, will tell us about that.

And later, creeped out by Jodi. I have guests who knew her and say she has been rehearsing all of this, all of what we`re watching, for years.

And, of course, that videotape.

Don`t go away.



ARIAS: I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. I didn`t even think I was holding the trigger. I was just pointing it at him. And I didn`t even know that I shot him.

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You didn`t stand there and watch him?

ARIAS: I didn`t stand there. I saw it and then I turned around to the backyard.

MARTINEZ: It would be an indication, ma`am, that you knew what happened.

ARIAS: Yes. I guess.

MARTINEZ: And it would also --

ARIAS: (INAUDIBLE) in the washing machine.

That part just stays with me and it`s hard to -- I couldn`t get that out of my mind and my heart, just the way, how tender he is and how much more he displays his love when he goes out of his way to make up for whatever he did. It felt like we lived an entire lifetime in one year. And so, I was basically referring to the whole tentative (ph) experiences that we had had.

It was like instantaneous. I just thought as soon as I slammed the door, I was going to run through the other door. And then, in a split second, I realized where the gun was and I went to grab it so I could point it at him and protect myself.


PINSKY: I am back with my co-host Jenny Hutt, and those were the many faces and gestures we`ve seen of Jodi throughout these hearings. How many Jodis are there?

You know, I started this whole thing, Jenny, thinking she was chameleon-like, and maybe empty, maybe sort of borderline feature, maybe even a multiple sort of dissociative disorder.

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: Now, I don`t know what`s real and what`s memorized (ph). There`s just so much stuff.

The only thing I know for sure is she lies her brains out --

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: And our human lie detector, no doubt, will agree with me on that.

And then when she gets caught, then she panics and then she cries. Those are the only two real things I know about her.

HUTT: But I think, and Janine can speak to this, I think her cries are totally insincere.

PINSKY: But they`re not panic. They`re not actually tears of sorrow or pain. They`re just, oh, my God, I`m freaking out, I`m in a panic.

And by the way, I got to tell the viewers, please stay with us for this video we`re going to show in a few minutes. You will see what our guests keep telling us is the real Jodi and a couple brought that video and we`re very grateful to them.

Now, Janine, you`ve told the producers you have something no one has talked about yet. What is that?

DRIVER: It`s what are called illustrators, Dr. Drew and Jenny. And illustrator is body language gesture that matches the story. I`m climbing the ladder, as we demonstrate what a ladder is. An illustrator is a hand gesture that matches the story.

Well, this is interesting. We see her just, you know, using her hands quite a bit.

Except, when Jodi talks about, Dr. Drew and Jenny, about jumping up to get the gun in the closet, she does this very interesting gesture. Instead of saying that she`s jumping up to get it --

PINSKY: Hold on, hold on.

DRIVER: -- instead her hands are down --

PINSKY: I want people to see you when you show this particular gesture. We can get Janine back -- there we go. Go ahead, now, do it.

DRIVER: There we go. So, hi, mom and dad! Here we go. You gave me my big debut right here.

So, instead of seeing her jumping up and leaping talking about getting the gun, what do we see her do? She does this gesture here. She says, I jumped up to get the gun and she does a low turn. It`s this low turn in her lap.

That`s not jumping up to get the gun. So her illustrators are off.


DRIVER: We have also what are called emblems, and emblem is A-OK, or come here, or stop, Mark, it`s my turn to talk.

These are emblems.


DRIVER: We see an emblem with Jodi Arias -- we see an emblem with Jodi Arias when she`s asked by the defense attorney, were you fearful for your life? She says yes, and then with her left shoulder, Dr. Drew, and Mark and Jenny, does a little shoulder shrug. This is uncertainty.

When you are telling you`re fearful for your life, you better not be showing the uncertainty with you body language, because you do, you are a liar. And we see that with Jodi.

PINSKY: And, Mark -- well, I know my lie detector tells me.

Mark, you want to ring in here about something? Is that what you want to --

EIGLARSH: Yes, just to add on top of the hand gestures, if you remember that picture of the closet that they were talking about today in court --


EIGLARSH: -- Jodi claims she had to grab that gun in self-defense. She was in fear for her life, so she had to go in there very quickly and grab the gun, and she showed us exactly where she grabbed the gun from, all the way on the top shelf.

If you look at the clothing to the left where she would have had to step up, not a single shirt was out of place. I`ve never seen a closet so organized in my life. That shows me objectively that her story is garbage.

Take away all the hand gestures, look at the shirts and how perfectly pristine and how organized they are right up to the edge of the shelf.

PINSKY: And, Jenny, I`m so stunned to hear that from a guy who wears such a disheveled tie and shirt. I don`t know he would notice something like that.

But, Lauren, do you want to give us an opinion here on this as well?

LAKE: Well, what I struck me today, and -- you know, I have to say, I have not been able to follow this case closely for its entirety. But I feel like when I just begin to study it and look at what the defense was trying to do to rehabilitate the cross-examination I saw that was pretty much the annihilation, I am getting the feeling like this is not a rehabilitation anymore and is redirect. It`s just becoming a rehash. And I haven`t been watching, you know, specifically since January, but I`m sick of it.

PINSKY: You`re already bored. Yes. I get.

LAKE: That feeling where I`m sick of her.


LAKE: And that`s not a good feeling for a jury to have.

PINSKY: And yet we`ve been talking, Lauren, along the way that some people we think -- or we`ve been hearing from inside the courtroom, some people seem to be getting a little some kind of sympathy or connection with her.

You know, listen, guys, show me the closet again, if you guys wouldn`t mind. I want to take a look at Mark`s shirts. I mean, Travis` shirts. You guys, would just show it.

Let`s take a good look at this to see what you`re talking about because that`s an interesting observation. Not only does she have to jump up through a closet. Let`s see -- by the way, Janine, when Mark said jumping up, he put his hands up like he was jumping up.

DRIVER: Right.

PINSKY: Jodi didn`t even do that.

So, we can zero in, where is the place -- it`s up there. She says she almost had to climb up -- now, go back to that if you can. She had to climb up a set of drawers almost. There it is. The best we can do, I guess.

Everything is pristine. And, by the way, she also said today a holster, she had to grab it out of a holster. You would think the whole room would have been torn apart, she was being chased and scared for her life -- and it doesn`t look like anybody even moved through that room.

All right, guys. Thank you. Thank you, Janine.

Next up, a couple who, in fact, knew Jodi and Travis and warned him about her, but too late. What scared them about Jodi? You will see a video that they have brought in here that, honest to goodness, for me we`re going to show it today, we`re going to show it tomorrow. It`s quite a long video and you really will get a sense of who these people are, how they relate in a way I just never have before.

And later, is the prosecution too tough for its own good? We`ll be giving Juan Martinez, the prosecution attorney, we`ll be giving his him grades.

Stay with us.



NURMI: What was the first incident of violence?

ARIAS: Well, I didn`t consider when he pushed me down twice violent.

NURMI: OK, but that was the first incident.

How about the last instance of violence? Was that June 4th?

ARIAS: No, that would have been right before I moved when he choked me until I lost consciousness.


PINSKY: Welcome back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. And we`re going to have an exclusive, never-been-seen-before video coming up.

And, Jenny, as I keep saying, I`m excited to show this to people, just like these pictures I want to show from the autopsy, seeing these pictures -- it`s different issue -- but seeing these pictures relating, and how they were in life, you get a much clearer sense of who we`re talking about.

HUTT: Yes. But she`s creepy.

PINSKY: You get a little creepy factor. And, in fact, joining me now are Hollie and Jacob Mefford, who knew Travis and Jodi.

And, Jacob, you, I guess, had a creepy feeling when you first met Jodi. Is that right?


PINSKY: Tell us about that.

J. MEFFORD: My wife and I had seen a post by Travis Alexander on MySpace, and there was a comment by Jodi. And so, anyway, her profile was really creepy. It had like witchcraft and a bunch of crazy stuff on it. So, my wife got a creeped out feeling and brought it in for me to take a look at it, and, of course, I was kind of blown away. I wondered who she was.

Anyway, a few weeks later, Travis had traveled in from Arizona to be a guest speaker at our event. Anyway, he walked in through the door, we were giving each other intros, high-fives, hugs and things like that.

And then Jodi walked in. I didn`t know they had been introduced previously, and so, I just immediately -- the first time I saw Jodi, I just got a really, really creepy vibe from her. And I said, man, you got to stay away from her, buddy. You know, she`s bad news.

That was the introduction from the very first time I ever met Jodi. And, of course, he got defensive on it. And a few minutes later, I saw them embrace and actually hug and kiss and I realized, oops, foot in mouth. They had already been introduced and, obviously, had something that was starting.

But I walked in afterwards, or up to them afterwards and said, hey, listen, I can`t hide it. You know, it`s -- obviously, you know where I`m at. I think she`s bad news.

PINSKY: What do you mean by bad news, Jacob? What -- can you put a word to that, or describe it more clearly?

MEFFORD: Yes, creepy. She had a very crazy sexual energy about her.


MEFFORD: I mean, just what she was dressed in -- first off, when you look in her eyes, it`s empty. It`s just like there`s no soul behind there. So, it was really creepy for me.

Plus, you know, she literally just had a jacket on at a business event with nothing underneath it, just buttoned up, and it was completely inappropriate for, you know, what we were doing, and she just -- again, she just had this very, you know, seductive type of energy like -- I can`t really explain it but it made my internal alarms really go off.

HUTT: Dr. Drew, I feel like everybody keeps saying the same thing, this look in her eye.



HUTT: -- weird, empty eyes.

PINSKY: And, Hollie, you`re the one that blew the whistle initially, so go at it.


PINSKY: We`ve been hearing a lot of these same kinds of descriptions from men, but I`m interested in you. Go ahead.

H. MEFFORD: She`s the kind of woman you keep away from your husband. Every woman can talk about someone like that, but yes, you were around her, you could feel her sexual energy, her manipulation, and she was not ever someone I wanted to be alone with my husband. Not that I ever thought my husband would do something, but I wouldn`t put it past Jodi to try to make an advance on a married man in a minute. She would -- she would, I`m sure, go after that.

J. MEFFORD: Before my wife, I`ve had crazy, so I knew.


PINSKY: And, Hollie -- what did you say? I didn`t hear it.

HUTT: He said before his wife, he`s had crazy, so he knew.

PINSKY: I think -- we may get a couples counselor for these guys after this interview, so I`m just saying.

OK. You guys, listen, stay with us. We`re going to keep the couple who have been kind enough to bring in this video presentation for us that I just find really very interesting.

If you want to check out clips from many of our shows about the trial, go over to You`ll find a ton there. And I believe we`ll be putting this video up, if not today, at least tomorrow.

Next, Travis did not listen to Hollie nor Jacob. Could anyone have talked him out of being with her? Was he addicted? Again, the new video never before seen, exclusive. We`re going to show it to you.

And then later, 15 days of Jodi testimony. Is the jury paying any attention at all or are they snoozing through this whole thing? I will ask my jurors from the courtroom what they think.



NURMI: And had he ever proposed to you?

ARIAS: Yes, he did over the phone once.

NURMI: Did you receive that proposal as being serious or just a joke?

ARIAS: There were times when he said it jokingly, but that one over I believe he was serious.


PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. That was Jodi Arias saying that Travis wanted to marry her. Travis Alexander`s friends, Jacob and Hollie Mefford, are with us. They provided us with video that has never been seen before, video of Jodi and Travis.

Guys, thank you for joining us and being so cute and lovely with us, and particularly, for Jacob admitting that he knows crazy.


JACOB MEFFORD, KNEW TRAVIS, KNEW JODI: I said before, just so you know.


PINSKY: I understand. I get it. Set up this video for us. Where was this? What`s happening here, and then, we`ll take a look at it.

JACOB MEFFORD: We were at a convention, actually, in Oklahoma City. It was a big company convention. And, we were all hanging out afterwards. And, for some reason, my wife felt compelled to videotape this story because we`d heard him say it before.

And so, we`re all as friends, close group, just hanging out around midnight and he`s just talking about a near-death experience that he had had at a robbery. And anyway, we were flipping through some old files and found it. So --

PINSKY: Can we -- in the control room, can we play it again with the sound? Is that possible?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To think this is how you die. This is it. And there was this woman that was seeing all this from like 10 feet away, and she started crying uncontrollably. So, I got a gun against my temple and he keeps like doing this with his gun, and she`s over here. So, I`m looking in my peripheral because I don`t want to turn this way, and I`m like, shut up, and he`s like shut up, shut up, shut up. And I got this gun against my head.

And all he needs to do is squeeze, you know? So, I`m like this woman is going to get killed. And I`m like looking at her with all the despair I can muster up in my retina. You know what I mean? It was -- it was -- it sucked.


PINSKY: There`s much more to that tape. We`re going to show it later and tomorrow. Jenny, do you have a reaction to that.



HUTT: And, like she wants to focus on her rather than listening to him tell a scary story.

PINSKY: A really important story. A near-death experience of his. Hollie, is that how you react to that video as well?

HOLLIE MEFFORD, KNEW TRAVIS, KNEW JODI: Yes, and I also think for Jodi to be on the stand saying that Travis never showed affection, and he was embarrassed of her. This shows right here that -- I mean, there were - - you can`t see in the rest of the video, but there were 20 other people standing opposite to Travis listening to this story, and she was laying there -- and this is how she always was around the group.

She, you know, was apathetic. She didn`t care about anything. And, she was, you know, always trying to get Travis away from the group.

HUTT: So, basically, what you`re saying is it was a lot of public display of affection --

PINSKY: She`s like a feline (ph), a cat rolling up in his lap. It`s like extreme shows of affection. And then, again, you say, Hollie, isolating him from his friends and family. That`s kind of a move that people do when they`re up to no good.

HOLLIE MEFFORD: Yes. And Travis wasn`t overly affectionate in public. You know, he was not inappropriate, I guess, would be the way to say it. And she definitely forced public affection on him, but he wasn`t embarrassed. He certainly wasn`t trying to hide her until much further in the relationship after they broke up.

HUTT: I think cat-like was exactly right.


PINSKY: And Hollie, you said -- I guess, you have a story about a friend`s house, the Skye Hughes (ph) home?

HOLLIE MEFFORD: Yes. The Hughes home. Jodi showed up one day while I was there with Skye, and she showed up unannounced. She came over to ask Skye why Skye hated her, and Skye, for 15 minutes, told her why we didn`t like her, why we didn`t want her around, why we didn`t want her to be with Travis. And I told her to get out of her house, to never come back.

And then, I was in the kitchen making lunch for Skye`s kids, and Jodi, after, you know, being yelled at for 15 minutes, comes into the kitchen, sits at the dining room table and just sits there and stares at me while I`m cooking macaroni and cheese. And, I didn`t say anything to her. It was really awkward, and I didn`t want to be around her. And she just sat there for 10 minutes, and then, finally, she got up and left.

PINSKY: Weird.

HOLLIE MEFFORD: It was weird. I know if i was at someone`s house, and they yelled at me and told me to get out, I would run to my car crying, probably.

PINSKY: Yes. You would leave. You would feel, what have I done? You`d feel responsible. You`d be upset.


HUTT: Dr. Drew, does this sound like somebody who`s a shrinking -- or someone who`s afraid and timid?

PINSKY: This sounds like someone who is empty and sort of missing social cues, but feels sort of self-righteous and entitled. Janine, if you can see the video from where you were there, did you have a chance to look at it? Did you get anything out of that?

JANINE DRIVER, DECEPTION EXPERT: I did. So, we see her, you know -- like, I think the cat analogy is perfect, this sheepish person, and it`s imploding. And this does not look like a woman who is a battered woman. You know, usually, when you`re a battered woman, you`re on your toes a little bit. You`re off to please him. And instead, she doesn`t look like she`s pleasing him because she`s not impressing his friends, obviously, as we can see, from your guests tonight. So, this is -- it contradicts what she`s saying today in court.

PINSKY: And Mark, looking at this, anything about his shirts or sartorial comments?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The only thing I keep thinking seriously is just how sad this is. You know, I see it with every image. And now, newer (ph) images, I just think that this shouldn`t have happened. It`s so unbelievably tragic. And I`m telling you, the people I feel the most for are his family who somehow have to show restraint and not physically jump up and just want to hurt this girl for what she`s doing in the courtroom.

PINSKY: Yes. And Janine, I know -- I`m sure you looked at the family and what`s going on in their faces and body movements and I feel like what Mark is talking about is actually going on inside the family. They would love to jump up and throttle.

DRIVER: Dr. drew, we know from a murder trial -- when someone`s life is on the line for a death sentence, a death penalty, we know that the jury, when they are polled later, what made you decide to give someone the death penalty or not, they look at the victim`s family and then they look at the murderer`s family.

Who is in the courtroom? How did this murder affect other people? And without a doubt, if you`re looking at the two families, the jury is going to feel more for Travis Alexander`s family.

PINSKY: Yes. I think we`ll always remember them blowing out of the room when they had to look at those horrible, horrible pictures, guys. They`re unbelievable, those pictures of the autopsy.

Listen, Jacob and Hollie, thank you so much for joining us and for bringing that video. We will show more of it tomorrow. It is chilling. It`s really a chilling indictment of the woman who`s on the stand.

Next up, report card time. How is Juan Martinez doing?

And later, we just go -- we go from murder for K-Y to this. A woman has a three-way sexual experience on corpses that she kills and literally dances on their bodies. It`s a story I`m going to have to tell you. We`ll explain.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a case of who done it. the person who done it, the person who committed this killing sits in court today. It`s the defendant, Jodi Ann Arias. So, you can tell us, for example, what kind of coffee you brought at Starbuck`s back on June 3rd, 2008, but you can`t tell us what you said yesterday or the day before?

ARIAS: I always got the same drink at Starbuck`s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you also lie to "48 Hours"?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you lie to people in Utah?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you lie to Daniel Freeman?

ARIAS: Yes. Everyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?

ARIAS: I don`t remember.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?


PINSKY: Time for Dr. Drew`s Report Card, the trial report card. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And tonight, we are grading the prosecutor, Juan Martinez. Still with us, Janine Driver, our human lie detector, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and Lauren Lake, also a criminal defense attorney.

All right. Lauren, is the over the top sort of pit bull routine working for Martinez?

VOICE OF LAUREN LAKE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK, as a kind of over the top pit bull myself, I`d have to say that it`s engaging to keep jurors` attention. This isn`t a long, long trial. So in that way, yes, but are you asking me for my grade yet?

PINSKY: Not yet. Not yet. I want to hear everyone -- a chance to ring in. Janine, let`s go to you.

DRIVER: I don`t think it works for him, Dr. Drew. Listen, I`m very alpha-female myself. I can be very aggressive, but we know in law enforcement, when you are overly aggressive, we can`t tell if when Jodi Arias is exhibiting signs of stress, is it because she`s lying and being deceptive or because she`s intimidated by the prosecutor? I do not think it`s working for him.

PINSKY: And Mark, I`m curious to get your rating on the prosecutor. And he`s sort of changed his style a little bit. By the last day, he was a lot softer. Is it all the same grade for you for him?

EIGLARSH: Yes. Unfortunately. I`m not judging him based on how she looks because she`s going to look horrible no matter who`s up there. I`m judging him for lack of preparation, lack of organization, not changing his intonation, risking that people might feel sympathetic for her. There was no reason for him to be over the top the entire time.

I think he`s doing the best he can at his level of awareness, but, quite frankly, I think he should have listened to those who understand the art form of cross-examination.

PINSKY: And what is that?

EIGLARSH: Well, first of all, it`s preparation. I tell my law students, you can`t just get up there without notes and just go back and forth like a pit bull like he`s doing. You plan each question, carefully crafting each question, because you know how cunning and how she acts.

So, you have to carefully watch each question and ask leading questions. Don`t give her an opportunity to explain things the way she did.

PINSKY: Jenny, you`re shaking your head --

HUTT: I`m agreeing with him because she`s sort of the ideal suspect and that she`s so horrific and hatable that how he hasn`t just sort of locked this up beyond a reasonable doubt is --

PINSKY: But just give her a little rope and let her hang herself.

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: Rather than batter (ph) her.

EIGLARSH: She should have been obliterated, Drew. She should have been destroyed. There`s more than enough here to obliterate, to slay her. And he just, with more preparation, with more planning, with more organization -- again, I`m going to get the hate mail, but tell me the advantage of not planning each question out one by one by one. I just don`t get it.

PINSKY: I thought, Mark, during Casey Anthony, you taught me that the whole name of the game was proof versus not proof. You have to sort of prove defense, self-defense, versus not prove it. Is that what you`re talking about destroying, that whole defense strategy?

EIGLARSH: I`m talking about asking leading questions which call for a yes or no answer and leading her through each lie. You lied when you said this. You lied when you said this. Isn`t the fact that you said this? Boom, go to the videotape from the "48 Hours," each thing, and then, it almost doesn`t matter what she`s telling this jury because she`s not worthy of belief.

PINSKY: Got it.

EIGLARSH: She is the only one who can say that this is domestic violence. She`s the only one who can make this defense, and she`s not worthy --

PINSKY: We`re going to start getting our grades in. Now, I have a caller who wants to bring in a grade as well. Rae Anne, do you want to give the prosecution a score?

RAE ANNE, ONTARIO: Sure I do, Dr. Drew. I definitely give him a B. I think he`s done a fabulous job. I think the judge has cut him off when he`s been actually got her to a crucial point where she`s ready to snap and that one day where called recess --

PINSKY: That wasn`t his fault right. That was her fault.

RAE ANNE: Pardon me?

PINSKY: That wasn`t his fault. That was the judge`s fault that --

RAE ANNE: Exactly. And I do blame the judge. I think he`s done a fabulous job and he`s using her own words with Detective Flores against her.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

RAE ANNE: And honestly, I think he`s saving the final bomb with that particular interview with Detective Flores.

PINSKY: OK. Rae Anne is 85. Janine, your score?

DRIVER: I give him a B minus --

PINSKY: B-, 82.

DRIVER: -- which I think is a step above the C. B- is the letter grade for, eh, he`s doing all right.

PINSKY: Mark, how about you?

EIGLARSH: He had too much to work with. She should have been obliterated and destroyed. I got to give him a D.

PINSKY: Oh, a D. We`re in the 65 zone. What about you, Jenny? What would you give him?

HUTT: I went with a C+ --


HUTT: -- which is just below the, eh.

PINSKY: That comes out around -- that must pull him into close to a C-ish, right?

HUTT: Yes. Will that be enough? What do you think?

PINSKY: I don`t -- C+, is that the overall -- someone`s giving me?

EIGLARSH: It will be enough. She`ll be convicted. It`s enough. She`ll be convicted. It`s just we`re analyzing what he could have done better. That`s all.

PINSKY: All right. We got to go to break here, guys. Thank you for that. A reminder that HLN has round the clock trial coverage morning, noon, and night from now until the verdict is in. HLN is on top of this story.

Next up, my jurors are back. Have they had enough of Jodi?

And later, this is a story that you and I have got to tackle. A couple have sex on top of their murder victims. You will not believe this story.


PINSKY: And now it is time for what we call "Dr. Drew`s Jury." I`m back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, from Sirius XM radio. Joining us, our jurors, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington is back. Stacey, is the length of this case beginning to wear on the jurors and can you see it in the jury box?

STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh, all day long today, Dr. Drew. I mean, the jury was, I think, paying attention in between the manicures. The juror in the back was giving herself a manicure the whole time.

PINSKY: Oh my God!

FAIRRINGTON: And another guy in the back was playing with his hair. And, I mean, I think they really were thinking about all the things maybe they`d rather be doing once this wraps up.

PINSKY: Katie, you agree?

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Absolutely, I totally agree. And the K-Y jelly issue that they talked about today, there`s a juror in the back, he seems to be in -- I don`t know, 30, 35 years old. We call him the coach. He kind of looks like a football coach, whatever that looks like, but when they talked about the K-Y jelly, he visibly stretched back, put his arms up in the air, leaned, back and yawned.

It was audible, and it was visible. They`re not looking at Jodi. They`re not making contact with Jodi anymore. I think they`re planning their vacation already. So, I think they`re pretty much checked out, except for a few women. There`s two women, Dr. Drew, that are really taking notes, still. They`re the two that have always been taking notes. So, nothing really new there.

PINSKY: Do you think those are two that are going to come down hard against Jodi or a couple that might sympathize with her?

WICK: I think sympathize. I don`t know what Stacey thinks, but I think that they could possibly sympathize.

PINSKY: Stacey, what do you think?

FAIRRINGTON: You know what, I actually kind of think different. I actually think they are -- I think they`re going to be the ones I want on the jury to be able to bring that guilty verdict. I really do. I think they`re thinking the note -- I think they`re thinking -- I think they keep those notes so that when they go back to the jury room, they can prove all their points on why she should be found guilty.

PINSKY: Interesting. Let`s go to call. Judi in Illinois -- Judi.

JUDI, ILLINOIS: Hi. I think what happened is horrible. She shouldn`t have done it. She`s a liar, but I`m sick and tired of him being portrayed as a saint by you guys. He was a pervert, what he did to her. And the excuse, oh, he`s just a man.


PINSKY: So, hold on here, this is fascinating. This is very interesting. So, would you say how he is coming across in the courtroom would be sufficient if you were in the jury to be sympathetic for Jodi?

JUDI: Yes, I think she`s pitiful. I do. I think she wanted him so bad and would do anything, let him treat her any way.

HUTT: But I just said -- wait, the blaming the victim here upsets me, because -- I mean, I`m an old married lady, so I`m not sure what the kids are doing today, but I feel like this is -- the way people have sex today, they do these things, Dr. Drew, right?


PINSKY: Maybe grist for another episode on the show --


PINSKY: Another conversation?


PINSKY: But I suspect it`s not outlandish behavior if it`s consensual.

PINSKY: Lily in Canada, you have a comment.

LILY, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I have a question about the journal. During cross, she clearly states that she wrote nothing negative in the journal because of the so-called laws of attraction. All of a sudden, in redirect, she has ripped up pages and added pages of him references negative things about Travis.

She claims that Travis read her journal and she even implies that he ripped up the pages that he didn`t like himself.

PINSKY: Right.

LILY To me, this journal seems manufactured. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on that.

PINSKY: I don`t know. Ladies from the jury, what do you think? Did that ring any alarms in the courtroom?

WICK: I don`t think so. We were talking with some other spectators, Dr. Drew, on this, and as far as the journal goes, the ripped-out pages and all that saying, oh, I didn`t want future generations to read it, it`s a Mormon thing. You didn`t want future generations to read about that, but you`re perfectly OK with future generations and people in your family reading about your sexual fantasies?


PINSKY: I`ve got audiotapes on-hand, right here, just in case anybody wants to know. I mean, it`s really very bizarre. Yes. This is the bizarre twists and turns. Go ahead, Stacey, finish this up.

FAIRRINGTON: No. I was going to say, is part of her journal keeping the sex tapes she kept recorded?

PINSKY: Yes, right.

FAIRRINGTON: I mean, are all those things seem that she`s going to, you know, pass on to future generations --

PINSKY: Ladies, thank you. I`ve got to take a quick break. Katie, I hope you`re OK. I heard you had a car accident. I hope you`re doing all right there. You look great, as always.

WICK: Thank you.

PINSKY: Next up, we are going from Jodi to something interestingly, perhaps, more disturbing. And Jenny, we want to talk to you about this. You had questions about it.

HUTT: I do.

PINSKY: These people kill somebody --


PINSKY: What we`re about to report on is not what the kids are doing today. OK? They`re not. We`ll talk about it after the break.


PINSKY: All right. So, here we go. An 18-year-old Illinois woman who apparently has an issue with necrophilia allegedly had sex with her boyfriend and another man -- and these are young people -- on top of two dead bodies, people she is accused of having strangled. There is one of the perpetrators.

The Joliet -- there is the woman I`m talking about -- the Joliet police described this -- this is really kind of striking, quote, "One of the most brutal, heinous and upsetting things I`ve ever seen in my 27 years of law enforcement." When I hear a cop or anyone in law enforcement say something like that, you know it is over the top. These guys see everything. It`s bad times.

HUTT: OK. But I don`t understand. You`re the doctor, so how can a woman have sex with a dead man?

PINSKY: She apparently didn`t have sex with the bodies. She had sex with these other two guys, living guys, on top of the bodies.

HUTT: So, her fetish is she likes to be around these bodies?

PINSKY: And literally danced on these dead folks, and there`s all kinds of just disgusting detail about what happened to the poor -- these desecrated young folk that she murdered. There were three of them, I guess, who were allegedly involved in this whole thing. It`s just -- again, we hear stories like this over here and we just go, what`s going on with people?

To me, I equate this with sort of Newtown, Connecticut. We`ve crossed over in a lot of ways into behaviors and the violence and aggression that you can`t make sense of. When people ask me, why do people do this? It`s not -- your rational brain will not make sense of it.

HUTT: Well, but yes, that`s deviant. That, to me, is sexual deviant --

PINSKY: Violent, aggressive. It doesn`t follow rational rules that normal brains do. So --

HUTT: And it`s gross.

PINSKY: It`s gross. We`ll look into that story a little bit. The arias trial, however, is nowhere near over. HLN is the only network with live, continuous coverage. Also, check out A reminder that video, again, tomorrow, more of it. Thanks for watching. Thanks to my co- host, Jenny Hutt. Thanks to all my guests. Thanks to the callers. I`ll see you next time. "Nancy Grace" right now.