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North Korea Talks Tough; Interview with General Jim Jones; Bloomberg's Soda Ban Fizzles; Interview with Laura Bush

Aired March 11, 2013 - 19:00   ET


ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, North Korea scrapping a 60-year armistice with the south. Has Kim Jong-Un gone too far, and Dennis Rodman speaks again.

And the controversy erupts in Europe after horse meat is discovered at restaurants. So why is horse meat about to be processed right here in the United States?

And I sit down with the former first lady, Laura Bush. How she sees the GOP changing. Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening, everyone. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, tough talk from North Korea. So today North Korean officials scrapped the armistice that's created nearly 60 years of peace, uneasy peace, but peace with South Korea. This after the U.N. Security Council unanimously passed tougher sanctions Thursday against Pyongyang. The reason for those sanctions, North Korea's third nuclear test. North Korea also threatened in an editorial in its state-run newspaper that, quote, "as the armistice agreement has been nullified, no one can expect what will happen next."

So is this just your run-of-the-mill saber rattling, or does North Korea's new young leader have something to prove and have the will to prove it? President Obama's national security adviser, Tom Donilon, says the U.S. isn't taking a chance.


TOM DONILON, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The United States will not accept North Korea as a nuclear state, nor will we stand by while it seeks to develop a nuclear-armed missile that can target the United States.


BURNETT: Earlier, I spoke with President Obama's first national security adviser, General Jim Jones.


BURNETT: So Kim Jong-Un's father was in power for 17 years, and he tested nuclear weapons, and he issued his fair share of threats. Kim Jong-Un seems to be a rather new and perhaps unknown quantity. Should we be taking the threat more seriously? GEN. JIM JONES, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I think when you're dealing with nuclear weapons, you have to take them seriously. I agree with what Tom Donilon just said. There are a lot of reasons why dictators behave the way they do. Number one, they are insecure to start with; number two, is they have an internal audience they have to play to. And I would imagine that Kim Jong-Un is playing to his military as well, and he's also playing to the South Korean administration, new President Park, who, you know, very, I think, wisely extended the hand of friendship and reason to North Korea. So this is maybe his way of sending a couple of messages. But it's always dicey. And as Mr. Donilon said, you can't take chances on this.

BURNETT: You were still with the Obama administration when the two American journalists were held captive in North Korea. And of course, President Clinton went there, helped ensure their release at that time. At the time you said, I'll quote what you said, "the former president did spend time with the Korean leader, Kim Jong-Il, that he appeared to be in control of his government and he sounded very, very reasoned in terms of his conversation."

Now his son is in charge, and the American who seems to have spent time with him, the only one who has, is Dennis Rodman, all right? And I wonder -- his official state media has released a bizarre video about a month ago. I don't know if you saw this, but I want to show it to you. It's set to the music "We Are the World," showing destruction of what appears to be New York City, kind of goes up in flames. It's a very bizarre video, state media in North Korea. Does it worry you that the U.S. has no real contact with this guy?

JONES: Well, we have -- yes, in the sense of direct contact, it would be better if we did, I suppose. But there are ways to message governments that we don't get along with indirectly, and those messages, I'm sure, are transmitted back and forth on a regular basis. But for a young man like Kim Jong-Un, this is particularly an adjustment period. And there's a risk of miscalculation. And that would be -- that would be very serious for North Korea and South Korea if somebody miscalculated.

BURNETT: Yes. The new defense secretary, Chuck Hagel, was just in Afghanistan. And obviously there was violence while he was there. Afghan President Hamid Karzai also accused the United States of working with the Taliban, saying that the violence from the Taliban actually provides an excuse for the Americans to keep troops in the country longer. In 2010, you said Karzai has a very clear sense of the commitment that the United States in particular is making to the long-term success of this country. Do you believe that's still the case?

JONES: This is a personal opinion. I'm disappointed in that rhetoric. After 10 years of blood and sacrifice on the part of the United States, I find that kind of talk to be not only insulting but borderline irresponsible. Because it's simply not true. The sacrifices that the men and women in uniform and our men and women at the State Department and even NGOs have made to try to turn Afghanistan in the right direction, under the leadership of President Karzai, is just simply beyond question.

By the way, it's not just the U.S. It's over 40 sovereign countries that have come together to help Afghanistan find its way. So for him to suggest that somehow we're colluding with the Taliban is just -- is just ridiculous.

BURNETT: Do you ever feel the U.S. government has wasted time, money, energy, lives, huge sacrifice in trying to work with Hamid Karzai, in particular, this man?

JONES: Well, I have -- my first experience goes back to 2003 when I was the NATO commander. I was privileged to be the one that proposed the military plan for engaging the North Atlantic Treaty Organization into Afghanistan. And I had very high hopes and was really taken by President Karzai's personality, his vision, his sincerity. But as the years went on, I started losing a little bit of faith. And, you know, when you get to the point where you listen to statements like that, it's not helpful to the overall destiny of Afghanistan, which, you know, could be very much in question.

BURNETT: Has the president managed the Karzai relationship well since you left, or is part of this the United States' fault?

JONES: I think, you know, I think reasonably well. We've sent our best generals there. We've sent our best people there. Our State Department has worked tirelessly. The president has communicated with President Karzai. He's a complex personality. He's got good people working for him. I know some of them very, very well. And they want what we want in Afghanistan. But ultimately, it's a test of leadership. And the report card on President Karzai that history will judge him on his leadership and what he's been able to achieve.

BURNETT: Obviously, when you left in October 2010, the New York Times said the reason you left a little earlier than you thought you were going to leave was because of quotes in Bob Woodward's book "Obama's Wars." According to that book, and that's -- according to that, you refer to David Axelrod, Robert Gibbs and Rahm Emanuel as "the water bugs," "the Politburo" and "the Mafia." I have to say--


BURNETT: -- I'm betting that they chuckled on one level when they read that. Obviously not on another. None of them are at the White House anymore. So is that a good thing?

JONES: You know, I think first of all, I know them all, and I like them all personally. And we had -- we had some great times together. But, you know, there is -- there are -- they formed a very special group and gave the president their best advice. My job was to give him my best advice on national security issues as I saw them. I don't think I ever had a serious disagreement with any one of them, but we were in different lanes.


BURNETT: All right, later on in our program, we're going to tell you what Dennis Rodman just said moments ago about Kim Jong-Un and when he's going back, some very interesting details here. We're going to play what you Dennis Rodman had to say just a couple of moments ago.

Later in the show, General Jones also talked passionately about a refugee problem in Iraq and its links to Iran. That's our "OUTFRONT Web Extra" tonight on our blog,

Still to come, the man believed to be responsible for the Colorado movie theatre massacre expected to enter a plea. His defense team has a specific plan they say will keep him from going to prison.

Plus, New York City Mayor Bloomberg's war on soda thrown out for being unconstitutional, but Mayor Mike, you don't want to fight with him. He's only just begun.

And Tiger Woods, he's back.


BURNETT: Our second story, OUTFRONT, New York getting busy with it. Today, a state judge put a stop to Mayor Bloomberg's big dreams, homes and ambitions to ban your ability to drink large sugary drinks. The ban was scheduled to go into effect tomorrow and the mayor was already counting his chickens. He's been on a public health crusade during his tenure, said he is not going to back down.


MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: Limiting the size of sugary beverages is consistent with the Board of Health's tradition and its mission. We believe that the judge's decision was clearly in error and that we will prevail on appeal.


BURNETT: Will he prevail? Well, he is a formidable enemy. OUTFRONT tonight, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Brad Gerstman who represents the New York Association of Grocery Stores. I think I know what side you're on, Brad. Let me ask you though, Jeff Toobin -- by the way, this is not -- this is not --


BURNETT: This is meaty.

TOOBIN: Meaty and completely wrong.

BURNETT: Completely wrong.

TOOBIN: Completely wrong. Look, the judge says it's arbitrary and capricious what the city did. Just because you can't do everything to stop obesity, to stop diabetes, doesn't mean you have to do nothing. This is one step.

That the mayor took within his jurisdiction -- the Board of Health took, and it's a reasonable step. It will make New Yorkers healthier, and I don't see any reason why a judge should get involved at all.

BURNETT: I mean, after all, he has gotten calorie count when you go to the restaurant, which he had to fight for two years. That's why I say, he's a formidable enemy. He's going to fight it. He's banned smoking, which now is being done around the world so why not?

BRAD GERSTMAN, REPRESENTS NEW YORK ASSOCIATION OF GROCERY STORES: This is extreme. Look at what this mayor has done. OK, you just named -- illustrated his track record. And now he's going to ban sugary drinks. What about all the other sugary foods that are out there? Talk about a slippery slope argument. It just makes no sense.

And then what the judge did, which was absolutely right, it's a long decision, but at the end of the day, he came out with the right conclusion, and thank goodness for common sense in New York because you can have two sodas. There are other drinks.

I could drink two beers instead of two sodas. Which would you rather? This is so arbitrary. This is the example of arbitrary. This is just absolutely beyond what a mayor should be regulating.

First of all, just keep in mind also this never went to the New York City Council. This wasn't legislated. This was regulated. This is a mayor taking full control of the food and drink industry and dictating what people can drink and what people cannot drink.

TOOBIN: Slippery slope arguments are phony baloney law school nonsense just because he banned transfats in restaurants, but you can use transfats at home. He banned smoking in restaurants and bars, but you can smoke on the street and at home. So you know, just because you don't ban something completely doesn't mean that you can't do something to improve public health. And that's precisely what this is.

BURNETT: Well, one way he could win this would be to say I'm going to ban it everywhere. He could make the ban even more inclusive.

GERSTMAN: He can become more expansive with this as much as he wants, but you know something? This is another case where common sense prevailed and thank goodness there was a judge in here, and we do have that level of review to be able to right the wrong.

BURNETT: All right, well, he also wants to ban plastic foam containers. He wants to warn people about losing their hearing from headphones. By the way, on a certain level we all are for these things because in the health care system, we pay for the people who drink too much soda and blast their ears out with the headphones. You can see the argument. He just talked to David Letterman about it. That's where he chose to give his interview, so let's play it.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: I think that it is incumbent on government to tell people what they're doing to themselves and let people make their own decisions. So our job is to educate people.


BURNETT: OK, but he's not letting us make our own decision. I mean --

TOOBIN: He is.


TOOBIN: Nobody is stopping you from buying two sodas, from buying three sodas, from buying 10 sodas. He's making it somewhat more inconvenient to -- when -- most people don't even pay attention. They buy the big size. And so if the big size is 16 rather than 20, people will buy the 16 and they will get diabetes less as a result, and that's good for them, and that's good for New York City.

GERSTMAN: With all due respect, the size of soda has no direct relationship to diabetes. It hasn't been proven. The other thing is, the mayor is 100 percent right in what he said on "Letterman." You can -- they can educate you, and then you can make your decision.

And Erin, you made that point. But the problem with this mayor is no one's allowed to make decisions except him. And he's going to make the decision for what's good and what's bad. And by the way, when he's deciding what's bad, there are some other things that are bad that he's not looking at. And at the end of the day, what government is supposed to do is protect the people, protect your businesses, protect the tax role of money coming in.

These are business-destroying regulations that are hurting our city every single day. We complain about taxes and at the same time we burden our city's businesses.

TOOBIN: You know, there's a word for someone who runs the city. It's called mayor. And that's what he's doing, and that's his job to try to protect --

BURNETT: And maybe some call him dictator, and that's OK.

TOOBIN: No. It's consistent with the law. Dictators are not.


BURNETT: What if he changed the law?

GERSTMAN: It's not consistent with the law.

TOOBIN: We'll see what the Appeals Court says. He lost this round, that's for sure.

BURNETT: All right. Thanks to both of you. And still to come, the horsemeat scandal shocked people around the world, and now horsemeat is about to be made right here in America. We take you to the horse processing plant right here at home.

Plus, the papal conclave starts tomorrow. We're going to tell you why an American could be Pope.

And I sit down exclusively with the former first lady, Laura Bush. How she sees the GOP's handling of social issues.


BURNETT: Our third story OUTFRONT, the time for talk is over. Tomorrow the 115 cardinals eligible to vote on the next pontiff will file into the Sistine Chapel, lock the doors and begin to elect the next spiritual leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics.

For days the cardinal electors have been meeting to hash out their differences on key issues facing the church. So the goal is when you go in to actually vote, you can vote and get that white smoke more quickly.

So what kind of papal posturing is going on?

OUTFRONT tonight, our Vatican expert, Raymond Arroyo.

Raymond, good to see you. From what everything we've heard --


BURNETT: It doesn't appear there's a frontrunner in the conclave. So behind the scenes right now, all of the politicking that can't be called politicking is going on, right?


ARROYO: It is indeed, Erin. You know, remember I had my horse analogy earlier. Well, you don't talk to the horse. You talk to the people around the horse. That's what's been going on. And if this is a horse race, there is no secretariat running in this derby. OK? There are no breakout candidates, but I keep hearing a number of candidates mentioned, but it's three, four or five. That's rarely a good sign.

The other thing, Erin, in 2005, you had sort of whips, cardinals who were attracting votes and trying to build coalitions. I can't find too many of those cardinals this time out. It's really an odd time. Very different from the last conclave.

BURNETT: Which I guess in some ways makes it even more exciting. We have also heard that because of this, that there is no secretariat in the running, as you say. That the next Pope might come from somewhere that might shock people, i.e., North America, maybe even the United States. Timothy Dolan, obviously, seems to be getting a little bit more buzz there in Rome. You've got Sean Patrick O'Malley of Boston and of course Mark Ouellet out of Canada.

ARROYO: Yes. Yes. Erin, let me -- let me quickly touch on Cardinal Dolan. He did this mass on Sunday. Yes, this is titular church. The crowds were everywhere. They applauded after his four- minute homily. You know, his Italian is just functional. But boy, were they excited.

You get in a taxi here, you go into a shop, Dolan is the only thing the Italians can say, but I can't find too many cardinals who support that. OK?

Then you move to Cardinal O'Malley in Boston. Now he has huge support. Not only among Italians and Europeans, you also see a number of the Latin bloc, that's 19 votes. He spent a lot of time in Latin America, worked in the Latin outreach in Washington, D.C. He is beloved by this community. They feel he understands them. That is somebody they might support.

Ditto with Cardinal Ouellet from Canada. Very close to the Latin community. He also named all the bishops here at the Vatican. So he's in touch with these cardinals in an intimate and close way than just about any other candidate.

BURNETT: And so when all this comes down to it, do you think because there is no frontrunner, that this could take a lot longer?


BURNETT: Everyone said, look, this should be done in a few days. But is it possible that it's not?

ARROYO: It may not be, Erin. I mean, everybody I'm talking to now, even cardinals say we could be in for a Thursday. If it goes as long as Friday, they have to take a day off for prayer and reflection on Saturday. And the vote would resume on Sunday. This could roll into next week.

BURNETT: Thanks to Raymond.

And now let's check in with Anderson Cooper who's also in Rome getting ready for his show at the top of the hour.

And Anderson, you have video of what's called the "Room of Tears." We've never seen the inside of this room. What is it?

ANDERSON COOPER, ANCHOR, "AC 360": Yes, it's rarely ever been seen before, and the Vatican released these images just today. It's really fascinating to get a look at it. This is actually the room that as soon as the Pope is actually elected before he appears out on the balcony overlooking St. Peter's and is introduced to the multitudes who will be assembled there waiting for him, and really the world media who's waiting for him, he goes into this room where he changes into his papal garments because obviously they don't know who the next Pope is going to be.

They actually have three different sizes of robes and garments for the next Pope to wear. They don't have extra large. John Paul II was an extra large, but they have small, medium and large waiting for this next Pope.

They also, obviously, don't know shoe size so they have shoes basically in all different sizes. The Pope will change -- the newly elected Pope will change into the garments there and then will walk out onto the balcony, and the world will see him for the first time dressed appropriately as a Pope.

BURNETT: That's pretty amazing because I know -- I guess with Pope Benedict they learned the hard way or they didn't totally fit him. So now they better safe than sorry, have it all laid out.

What else do you have on the show tonight, Anderson?

COOPER: Yes. We're actually going to be showing you the tailors to the Popes, a company called Gammarelli here in Rome, made most of the clothes for the former Pope or Pope Benedict. And Pope John Paul II used a different tailor, wasn't quite as interested in clothing as Benedict was. So who the new tailor for the Pope is going to be is really anybody's guess at this point.

We're going to show you some of the sort of the tradesmen who are working here, making the shoes, making the clothes for this next Pope.

BURNETT: All right. Well, we'll see you in just a few minutes and look forward to that, Anderson.

All right. Still to come OUTFRONT, horsemeat in America. We're going to take you to the first processing plant to exist in the United States in six years.

And nearly eight months after cops say he opened fire in a Colorado movie theater, James Holmes is going to enter a plea. But the judge has made a controversial decision as to a drug Holmes might be administered. That's next.


BURNETT: Welcome back to the second half of OUTFRONT. We start with stories we care about where we focus on reporting from the front lines.

So, we begin with former NBA player Dennis Rodman. He's speaking out again about his trip to North Korea. He's going back.

A couple weeks ago, you recall he was palling around in Pyongyang with the country's dictator, Kim Jong-un. And here's what Rodman told CNN affiliate KXJB today.


DENNIS RODMAN, FORMER NBA PLAYER: I don't condone what he does. But he's my friend.

REPORTER: Do you anticipate going over there again?

RODMAN: Yes, I will, in August.

REPORTER: You are going over there?

RODMAN: Yes. I'm vacationing with him, yes.


BURNETT: Vacationing with Kim Jong-un. I can -- I cannot wait to see what that entails.

Rodman went to say that his stance on Kim remains the same. He said he does not want to go to war with the United States despite the country's continued nuclear tests.

An archbishop from Italy was Intrade's favorite for pope. And now we may never know whether that prediction was right. The predictive betting Web site that let you put your money on current events shut down Sunday after the company said it discovered potential financial irregularities.

Late last year, Intrade was banned in the U.S., but it was popular for everything, from the presidential election to sports games. Josh Brown of the Reformed Broker blog predicts Intrade or something like it will resurface sometime soon. If you want to bet on the pope, everybody, go to You can bet there.

It's been 585 days since the U.S. lost its top credit rating. What are we doing to get back? Well, we have the market to be giddy about, if you are invested in it. That is.

The Dow and S&P have gone up for seven trading days in a row. The S&P less than 10 points away from an all-time high, and the Dow hit another one today.

And now our fourth story OUTFRONT: inside the mind of an accused mass murderer. James Holmes, the man accused of killing 12 people in a Colorado movie theater last summer is expected to enter his plea tomorrow morning. Speculation is mounting that Holmes will use the insanity defense which could keep him out of prison.

Ted Rowlands is OUTFRONT.


TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): James Holmes' life will be very different if he spends it in a mental institution rather than prison. John Hinckley, after trying to kill President Reagan in 1981, avoided prison and has spent the last 30-plus years at St. Elizabeth Hospital in Washington, D.C. Hinckley has privileges he wouldn't get in prison, including unsupervised home visits.

But those who have lived in both say mental hospitals are no picnic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prison is more physical, you know, you have to be macho, stand up for yourself physically.

ROWLANDS: This convicted rapist who doesn't want to be identified spent 14 years in prison and 12 years in state hospitals, including Atascadero, home to many of California's criminally insane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you initially get there, it seems like it's going to be a walk in a park. Unlike prison, everything is nice and clean.

ROWLANDS: We went to Atascadero to see what life is like inside. No matter what they did to get in here, everyone technically can get out. They have to follow the rules and go to therapy sessions. The catch is that nobody leaves no matter what they did until they are, quote, "cured" -- which may or may not happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a mental game. Not knowing you're not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, things change. You know, mentally for you.

ROWLANDS (on camera): This is what a typical unit looks like. This is a nursing station. In a prison you might find a guard station. But here, it's a nursing station. It's also a common area where patients can come and watch TV. There's a bathroom they use.

Over here, you can see a typical patient room, and it is much different than you would find in terms of a prison cell. Look at the difference. First of all, inside all there is really is a bed. There's also a window here, but there's no toilet.

One other distinction, this door here is always unlocked. The patients here can come and go as they please.

DR. DAVID FENNELL, ATASCADERO STATE HOSPITAL, HOSPITAL: There is somewhat more freedom of movement for these patients. But at the same time, they have much higher expectations for taking part in treatment activities.

ROWLANDS (voice-over): While less than 1 percent of criminal defendants in the United States end up being classified as insane, James Holmes has shown clear signs of mental illness. Recent court documents show that Holmes has been taken to a psychiatric hospital twice. So it is still unclear whether if found guilty, he'll end up in a prison or a hospital.


BURNETT: Ted, that's amazing just to see those rooms. When you were walking and there was no bathroom. You mentioned obviously when everyone sees that picture of him with his eyes wide and he looks completely insane there, but since his arrest, he has done some things that have added to that worry, right?

ROWLANDS: Yes, absolutely. There's been a couple incidents -- he's been hospitalized twice. He tried to put a paper clip into an electric outlet. He bashed his head against a wall and was taken into a hospital because they deemed him at the jail a danger to himself. He was restrained in that hospital.

So the signs are there that he has definite mental issues. Whether or not he'll get that not guilty verdict by reason of insanity remains to be seen. That's a tough road.

BURNETT: All right. We'll see what that plea is tomorrow. Ted will be with us. Thank you.

And now to the horse meat scandal that's hit fast food, joints and supermarkets in Europe. Taco Bell, Burger King and Ikea bought mislabeled beef that was found to contain horse meat.

Now, it's illegal to sell horse meat in the United States, but a recent change in federal policy means that they can now produce horse meat in the United States for the first time since 2006. Now, that's raising a lot of fear and some anger. And we wanted to know more about this plant, where it was and what it would do.

Casey Wian is OUTFRONT now with an exclusive look at what the new horse slaughterhouse in New Mexico is going to look like.


CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ricardo De Los Santos ran this New Mexico cattle slaughterhouse until drought and recession forced him to shut down last year. Now, he's weeks away from reopening, but this time to slaughter horses.

RICARDO DE LOS SANTOS, PARTNER, VALLEY MEAT: It will be a facility that's run professionally, and we will do everything we can to maintain or to do it humanely.

WIAN (on camera): These are the pens where the horses will be kept before they're slaughtered. They'll also be inspected here by USDA inspectors. They'll then be moved into this chute and walk up this way one after the other.

The horses will then enter what's called the knocking chute. They'll go through this passageway here. After each horse enters the chute, this door here will be closed. That way the horses waiting to be slaughtered will not be spooked by what happens to the horse in here.

This is the captive bolt gun. It uses air pressure to shoot a bolt into a horse's skull, knocking them unconscious immediately.

DE LOS SANTOS: It's operated by air, shoots out a captive bullet out of here. This whole chute area goes up. And then the horse rolls out. Then we will hoist it up. That's where we bleed them and take the head off.

It's food already. Once it's hanging here, it's already food. WIAN (voice-over): Food to be sold for human consumption overseas. De Los Santos says he has no interest in selling horse meat to Americans which remains illegal. Evidence of horses being slaughtered under horrific conditions helped persuade Congress to outlaw the $65 million a year U.S. industry in 2006.

DEBBIE COBURN, FOUR CORNERS RESCUE RANCH: They smell blood. They panic. It's not -- it's pretty gruesome.

WIAN: Recently, Congress lifted the ban. Some say it actually caused more suffering. Last year 170,000 American horses were slaughtered in Mexico and Canada. Recession-strapped horse owners either abandoned or starved countless others like Charlie who came to this horse rescue ranch on the brink of death.

CHARLES GRAHAM, WALKING N CIRCLES RANCH: He had been starved to the point that he was just a skeleton.

WIAN: Charles Graham has saved scores of horses, yet he favors lifting the slaughter ban.

GRAHAM: If we're going to send 170,000 horses out of the United States to be slaughtered, we lose control of those horses whenever they cross the border. And we're not telling anybody to go slaughter their horse. And we're not supporting slaughter. All we're saying is it has to be an option based on the number of unwanted horses that are in this country.

COBURN: People in the slaughter camp will tell that you we have to do this because there's a crisis, and they're trying to do a service to our community and our nation by getting rid of these unwanted horses. And the fact of the matter is, this is a purely profit-driven industry.

WIAN: De Los Santos says he does need to make a living and plans to hire 40 workers once his slaughterhouse opens, maybe 100 when it's fully operational.

DE LOS SANTOS: What do we do with those 10,000 horses a month? No one has come up with a better alternative right now.

GRAHAM: The horses are livestock. They're not companion pets.

I think the only thing that the animal rights groups and people like us are arguing about is whether or not there's going to be a beneficial use of the carcass after the horse has been put down.

WIAN: Casey Wian, CNN, Roswell, New Mexico.


BURNETT: A great piece there.

And still to come, Tiger Woods gets his biggest win in years, but does it really mean he's back? Wait until you see where the ball went. Plus, I sit down with former First Lady Laura Bush. What she had to say about her husband, the current state of the GOP and her daughters.


BURNETT: Our fifth story OUTFRONT: Former First Lady Laura Bush. I just sat down with the former first lady at the new George W. Bush Presidential Center as part of CNN's "What Women Want" campaign. We talked about a whole lot of things.

And she also gave me a sneak peek of the new presidential center.


LAURA BUSH, FORMER FIRST LADY: So, this is all Texas native prairie grasses.

BURNETT (voice-over): It may find unusual to find 15 acres mature prairie in the heart of Dallas. But former First Lady Laura Bush says it feels like home.

The new urban park is designed after the Bush family ranch in Crawford, and it's part of the George W. Bush Presidential Center at SMU, which makes its public debut next month.

(on camera): Mrs. Bush, thank you so much for having us here in this little sneak peek.

BUSH: Thank you for coming, Erin. I'm glad you're here to get to see it.

BURNETT (voice-over): I sat down with the former first lady on International Women's Day to talk about the Bush Institute Women's Fellowship Program.

BUSH: It's really the -- sort of the answer, I guess, to a dream that George and I both had. We both believe that women are going to be the ones who lead the democracy movement across the broader Middle East. And as so, we brought a year ago a group of Egyptian women. We decided to focus on Egypt first.

BURNETT: Fourteen Egyptian women have spent the past year learning leadership skills from prominent American women in education, health care, business, politics, law and media.

(on camera): A lot of people see Egypt, and they -- especially when you think of women, I mean, there have been gang rapes in Tahrir Square and a number on things like genital mutilation remain horrific, 96-plus percent according to the U.N.

What made you say why Egypt now?

BUSH: Well, we picked Egypt. We met -- we actually are bringing women all from the same country with the idea that they would meet each other and then go home and have each other as a network. We looked, and Egypt seemed the most promising of all of the Arab Spring countries.

BURNETT (voice-over): Amany Eid is a marketing expert who entered the program with some hesitation.

AMANY EID, BUSH CENTER FELLOWSHIP CANDIDATE: It was a feeling that back home, President Bush -- some people are not very happy with the politics.

BURNETT: Amany says the fellowship has been an invaluable experience.

I first met Namees Arnous last year on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange.

NAMEES ARNOUS, BUSH CENTER FELLOWSHIP GRADUATE: I learned a lot of skills, how to expand my network, how to save my network, how to make a new network. And as a journalist and as a person interested in public affairs and women rights and so on, I need a network.

BURNETT: Building a network of professional women is the cornerstone of the program.

BUSH: Your network is your largest indicator of success, more even than your education level.

BURNETT: With another 19 women joining the 2013 class, Laura Bush says the fellowship program will make a major impact for years to come.

BUSH: They didn't know each other when they came here a year ago. They've worked with each other ever since.

They've introduced each other to their colleagues and their families, and already their network is much broader than just the 14 women that came initially.

SARA GALAL, BUSH CENTER FELLOWSHIP GRADUATE: I can't imagine for a woman who is building an I.T. company in Egypt going to the Silicon Valley, (INAUDIBLE) Google and Facebook, it was an amazing experience. I didn't believe myself that I'm there. I'm tweeting from Twitter. I have to do it.

BURNETT: Amany says she's looking forward to expanding her nonprofit in Egypt but will always have fond memories of Texas.

EID: Having spent some time in Dallas, it's very tempting to go blonde and buy boots.


BURNETT: Mrs. Bush is trying to take the lead when it comes to women's issues. And in addition to the fellowship program, the Bush Institute is expanding in Africa and Afghanistan. Now, I asked Mrs. Bush why she feels so compelled to help so many women overseas.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BUSH: I think that it's so important that if we want peace in the world, if we want to have peace in our own country and not be afraid of a terrorist attack like we had on September 11th, that it's really important that we help other countries.

BURNETT: You said that you and the president are partners in this women's initiative. What made him become so dedicated to it? I mean, obviously, he's got two daughters and you, so he's surrounded by --

BUSH: I think he's dedicated to it because like everybody else in our country, we've looked at the countries where women are marginalized, and we nearly always see a failing country. And I think it's just important when you look around the world to make sure that men and women can help their countries prosper in every way.

BURNETT: An Egyptian woman, her name's Samir Abraham (ph), and she's done a lot of things, courageous things. She's also been criticized for sending tweets that are anti-Semitic, anti-American.

How -- does the U.S. need to accept that when we want to make change, you have to support people that do those things, financially in term of awards, in terms of all these things because it pays off in the end? Is that a tradeoff we have to make?

BUSH: No, I don't think so, not necessarily. But I do think it's really important that we do support women in any way we can in the U.S. and I know American women want to do that. It's easy for us to recruit the mentors, the American women mentors for our class of Egyptian fellows because American women are interested in women around the world. And they want to see women succeed.

BURNETT: When you're looking around for partners, I have to say, you know, the person that I thought of who's now free, now available is Hillary Clinton.

BUSH: Sure.

BURNETT: Would you do something with her? I mean, it seems that she's also had a passion for women.

BUSH: I don't know, you know, what she is going to do now, but I suspect that she'll work with the Clinton Global Initiative, just like I am with George Bush Institute. So I think there are many ways our two initiatives can partner. And, of course, she was our partner with Pink Ribbon/Red Ribbon.


BUSH: She came to the summit and signed the MOU between the U.S. State Department and the Bush Institute for Pink Ribbon Red Ribbon.

BURNETT: I'm curious, there's a new book which I know you know about. Sheryl Sandberg's book.

BUSH: Yes, that's right. BURNETT: And I know you're on the board. I was actually reading your --

BUSH: My leaning in?

BURNETT: -- you testimonial. Yes, your leaning in -- about 9/11.

And I was curious why you chose to join that board? Why that was important to you?

BUSH: Well, I just thought it was interesting. This whole idea of empowering women by the idea of being able to lean in to an issue or a way, that you can both develop your own self in a broader and deeper way, but also to be able to help other people.

And you know, I have two girls who have been leaning in since the day they were born, I think. They're both very interested in the outside world and in life outside of themselves. When you go through those teenage years, teenagers are usually very self-conscious and my advice always to teenagers and young people is to move outside of yourself by looking at other people, by looking at ways you can use your own talents to either help other people or support other people or develop your interests.

And I would say that Barbara and Jen have certainly done that.

BURNETT: Right, leaning in and now Jenna is having a baby and leaning in hard.

BUSH: Yes, exactly. She's going to have all of it.

BURNETT: Yes. "TIME" called that book the most ambitious mission to reboot feminism in 40 years. I thought it was amazing because Sheryl talks about the ambition gap between men and women and how, you know, success and likability are positively correlated for men, and negatively for women, which is so frustrating for so many women still.

And, obviously, you have your two daughters who are so professionally successful. Do you think it's time, and I know this is a loaded word, but for a feminist manifesto that it's time for that again?

BUSH: Well, I don't know what a feminist manifesto really means. I do think that these are very different times. I know what it was like in the very first of the feminist movement when I joined women's consciousness-raising group and times are different now.


BUSH: I will say that I was raised by my parents to think I could do anything, and I think that's the way George and I raised our girls. I think American girls in general believe that. I don't know why more girls or women don't run for office. I'm sorry that more women don't choose to run for office. But frankly, I would never choose to run for office.

BURNETT: Well, I mean, your daughters have both said they don't want to.

BUSH: Yes, and they grew up in a very political family and they know what it's like. They have many great role models. I mean, their grandmother as well as their grandfather, obviously, and they know there are a lot of ways you can be involved in policy and in public life without actually running for office. They have cousins, boys, who I think are interested and would want to follow the family business, really, of being in political office.

BURNETT: Some of the issues with women in the country obviously, last time more than half the women voted for President Obama in part because of abortion, gay marriage issues like that. Do you think the Republican Party has made a mistake in doubling down on those issues and making social issues so central to the platform?

BUSH: Well, no, I mean, I wouldn't say that, necessarily. And every candidate was different, you know, each one of them. There are obvious examples of candidates that were -- that I think frightened some women but they were the exception rather than the norm in the party.

And, you know, there -- all of those social issues are very, very heart-felt by people. And I understand that. There are differences and people, you know, there just will be, and I'm glad that in our party we have room for all of them. I think that's important, too.


BURNETT: All right. That was former First Lady Laura Bush.

And still to come, Tiger Woods' big win and the fan who bloodied himself.


BURNETT: Tiger Woods had a very good weekend playing his best golf in years. He won the WGC Cadillac Championship in Miami by four strokes. This is his 17th World Golf Championship title and despite sending his golf ball into a tree, eventually retrieved by this fan, whose arms got completely -- see all the blood climbing the tree? Hey, it's worth it to get a ball from tiger.

He really wasn't in danger of losing. Tiger is on his game, and looking very fit next to our friend Donald Trump there at the winning ceremony. Tiger won the trophy and a $1.4 million prize.

But more importantly, he won over his critics because headline after headline today announced Tiger's return, with many sports journalists picking Tiger as the favorite to win the Masters next month.

If he does, it will be his first major victory in five years, which brings me to tonight's number -- five. That is the number of tournaments Tiger has won on the tour in the past year, the most of any PGA player. And the $8.8 million he's won in prize money over the same time frame puts him at second place overall. In fact, since his very public meltdown in 2008, Tiger has won more than $21 million in golf money.

Those are big numbers but yet, those wins didn't come in a major tournament and as strange as it seems in professional golf, success is measured by the majors. We'll be rooting for him at the Masters.

And tomorrow on this show, we bring you the story of Chase Hilgenbrinck, who is a pro soccer player playing for the New England Revolution. He had it all and gave it up to become a Catholic priest. He's OUTFRONT tomorrow night.

"A.C. 360" starts right now.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks very much.

Good evening, everyone. It is just 1:00 a.m. here in Rome.