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Cardinals Now Locked Away; Vatican Smoke Watch Begins; Life Could Have Existed on Mars; Women & Winning
Aired March 12, 2013 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
Happening right now, the vote for the pope. The eyes of the world are on Rome as we are watching the Vatican. And that chimney that rises from inside this Sistine Chapel, we are waiting for the world's most famous, most anticipated smoke. You know the drill by now. White smoke means the 1.2 billion Catholics all around the world have a new leader. Black smoke means it was an unsuccessful vote of the conclave.
Take a good long look at these men here, streaming inside the Sistine Chapel, because this is the last time we will see these cardinals as they are heading into this tip-top secret conclave behind the locked doors, Conclave means "with key." The locked doors of the Sistine Chapel, where they are now possibly casting their ballots as I speak.
Remember, they have to have -- you have 115 cardinals. You have to have 77 votes or two-thirds here necessary to pick a pope. But important to remember, it has been centuries since a pope has been elected here on day number one of this conclave.
Joining me now, live from Rome, is CNN anchor Chris Cuomo and CNN senior Vatican analyst John Allen.
Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.
Chris, let me start with you here. As we know, these cardinals are in session. Walk me through what possibly is happening now behind this locked door. And talk to me about the smoke.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, well, let's start with the smoke. This is part of the tradition that really just harkens back to the timelessness of it. You know, John Allen says that they just started using the stove basically in the 20th century. It's one of the things that could be updated, but hasn't. You know, when we learned about Pope Benedict's resignation, there were electronic, you know, e- mail submissions coming out of the Vatican to let us know what was going on. But they stay with la stufa, "the stove," because that's just how it's done. It's part of their ritual.
And one of the interesting things for us as reporters and everybody who looks on, and right now St. Peter's Square is filling up with thousands of people, is it's really hard to tell the difference. They used to do it with straw, Brooke. Wet straw would make black smoke. Dry straw would make light smoke or white smoke. So they moved away from it. Now they have a tandem stove system with one stove that has these chemical packets in it and they -- joins the main chimney of the stove that burns the ballots and that chemical is supposed to change the color of the smoke, but even that gets very difficult to decipher. And then on top of that darkness, humidity, rain and hail and all the other things we have seen today makes it very confusing.
So then what we do, Brooke, is we wait for bells, right? The problem is, bells ring a lot in Rome. So you don't know if this is just a temporal occurrence.
CUOMO: You know, this is when they ring. Or, it is that il campanone, "the big bell," that is supposed to announce it. So what we all have to do is, do our best with the smoke and wait for a pope, because he does have to come out onto the balcony.
BALDWIN: And we'll wait for you. I'll let you all call it in person since you're there perched in Rome to determine whether it is the black or the white smoke.
But, John Allen, let me go to you, because I am absolutely fascinated by this process. And particularly the voting. Because from what I understand, so this day one of the conclave, they have this one vote. Then they have three days. They vote. Then two times a day. If they continue to vote for the same next pope, and they have yet to select someone, they take this day of prayer. But it's my understanding it's not just praying here. There is papal politics happening. Tell me about the alliances, John, that begin to form.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Well, the first point to make, Brooke, is that although we are expecting them to take a ballot tonight, they may not. It's optional.
ALLEN: And, in fact, the Vatican spokesperson said a few moments ago that it may in part depend upon how long the reflection is they're having up top. There's one of the over 80 cardinals, a Maltese cardinal by the name of Prosper Grech, who's giving them a spiritual meditation.
But, listen, the alliances. You know, traditionally we would often think of alliances forming in terms of geography, like the Europeans versus the Latin Americans or the North Americans or whatever. And that may come into play in this conclave.
I think going in, however, the more fundamental alliance, or difference this time, the fault line so to speak, would be between the Vatican cardinals, those 38 cardinals who represent the bureaucracy of the Vatican, and cardinals from many other parts of the world, who frankly believe this place needs a dose of 21st century business management.
CUOMO: So it's interesting, Brooke, as I'm listening to the conversation. You know, I've gotten the benefit of John -- it's like everything I know that's right comes out of John Allen's mouth. But it's an interesting dynamic from this point forward because whether or not there is smoke tonight, whether or not they vote tonight, we do believe that judging from the general congregations there's enough on the table that this will take time, yes?
ALLEN: Well, I think that's exactly right. I mean you and I have talked before. Last time, eight years ago, when Benedict was elected, I think there was a very simple logic to the conclave. The cardinals thought they had witnessed the end of a historically, massively, runaway successful papacy with John Paul II and they wanted to keep it going. The logic was continuity. So they elected the intellectual architect of John Paul's papacy, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.
This time, I don't think there is a simple logic. Instead, there's a lot on the table. A pope with global vision. A pope who can evangelize, that is get people excited about the faith. A pope who can clean up the perceived business management deficiencies of the last eight years. When you have a more complicated logic heading in, that often makes the math more complicated to get to that two-thirds majority or 77 votes.
CUOMO: And it would be somewhat news to the extent that, you know, you can cover this like a typical political think if the Vatican, the couria (ph), if they become seen as an outside, an idea of old thinking, instead of the all-stars they've been respected as in the past and the foreign cardinals come in here saying, we don't like what's happening here, things need to change, that would be unusual, wouldn't it?
ALLEN: Well, in one sense it wouldn't ne that unusual, Chris. Complaining about the Vatican is the favorite indoor sport of the catholic church. I mean everybody likes to get in on the act. On the other hand, I think what is unusual this time is the complaints aren't just coming from the grassroots. They're coming from the princes of the church.
And, again, it's not about doctrine, it's not about substance, it's about governments. It's about how the place is run. What we've seen over the last eight years is that there have been a number of breakdowns that aren't just internal, but have created big public messes. In 2009, there was the rehabilitation of a holocaust denying bishop. Last year, the massive Vatican leak scandal. The perceived mishandling of the child sex abuse scandals. And these cardinals, in their own parts of the world, when these bombs go off in Rome, they have to pick up the pieces with their own local media, their own local faithful, and, frankly, many of them are tired of it.
CUOMO: No matter how you look at it, the outcome could not be bigger for the cardinals and for the more than 1 billion people who lean on the church as the center of their faith life.
All right, John, thank you very much. Brooke, back to you in New York.
BALDWIN: Yes, looking at the live pictures here.
CUOMO: Not in New York, Atlanta.
BALDWIN: Atlanta. No problem.
Looking at live pictures. As Chris mentioned, people are beginning to really fill St. Peter's Square. It's a good point John makes. In fact, we may or may not have a vote. They may not be voting as part of the conclave, thus may not see the smoke. We will certainly be watching as we have crews there in Rome and we will bring that news to you as soon as we know from Italy.
Meantime, the cardinals, they have now officially cut off contact with the rest of the world. But for the first time, social media playing a huge role here, trying to unveil some of the secrets of this papal conclave. So before heading into the Sistine Chapel, New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan actually tweeted a link to his latest blog post. "Greetings again from Rome." So from the tweets to the FaceBook pages, smartphone apps and, oh, yes, go with me here, a Fantasy Conclave league. Samuel Burke is our digital producer at CNN International in New York with the details.
And I can only imagine this is Fantasy Conclave a la Fantasy Football, yes?
SAMUEL BURKE, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIGITAL PRODUCER: Exactly. And if you can't be in Rome like Chris Cuomo for the conclave, social media buzz says the next best thing is fantasyconclave. com. You can even walk away with a few hundred dollars if you guess accurately who the next pope is, what name they choose and what day they're selected. It's free to register. So it won't cost you anything. It's not technically betting that way.
Another site getting a lot of buzz is popealarm.com. with this website you register your e-mail address and your cell phone number and then it alerts you, even wakes you up via text message, no matter what time of day the pope is chosen. But I think you have to be a pretty faithful catholic to register for that site.
BALDWIN: I think so. I don't even like my regular alarm, so we'll leave it with that.
What about, say, what about apps? What about smartphones as well?
BURKE: Yes, well someone told me conclave apps, what a niche market.
BALDWIN: Who knew.
BURKE: But if you think about the fact there are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world, that's not niche at all. There's iConclave, for example, that has a database of all of the cardinals, so you can read up on those. But then there's Pope Chart, which takes it a step further. It also has all the bios of the cardinals. But it also allows you to vote. And the last time I checked, Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana is winning the people's vote on that app.
And a lot of people asking, what's going to happen with the Twitter account that Benedict opened up late last year @pontific (ph). It says, open -- empty seat at this moment. The Vatican has deleted all of the tweets that Benedict tweeted and they've archived them at the Vatican. But it still has 1.6 million followers waiting for the next cardinal to become pope.
BALDWIN: Of course, now I see this morning that there's some sort of chimney twitter handle as well as we await the black or the white smoke.
BURKE: That's right.
BALDWIN: Samuel Burke in New York. Samuel, thank you.
Now it a major development here from space. It's the question scientists have always asked, was there ever life on Mars? Well, today, NASA says, yep, that is entirely possible. Can't keep from smiling so big. I'm so excited.
Chad Myers, we've talked so much about the Mars Curiosity rover up there, waiting, waiting, waiting, for them to find something.
BALDWIN: And now they're saying yes.
MYERS: Yes, they did.
MYERS: They didn't find life. They didn't find organics. But now they know --
BALDWIN: Conditions that could have --
MYERS: That's the new search.
MYERS: Maybe they were only really searching for, was it habitable? Could anything live there? Today they proved "yes." There is water. There was water. Pure enough for you or me to drink.
MYERS: But now it's gone. It's not there anymore. But there are still some traces. When they drilled a hole, they found out and they put this stuff into the sand, into the measurement. They heated it up. They found carbon dioxide. They found oxygen. They found water. They found sulfates. And they found things that only can happen if it's wet. They know that the hole they drilled was in a dry lake bed. At some point in time, maybe 3 billion years ago, that was a lake. Today it's dry. And they found things in there that proves that there could have been something living there at some point in time.
BALDWIN: So I can just hear some of the viewers asking, so what, 3 billion years ago, why do I care today? Why do we care? MYERS: Well, we care because we don't want our earth to turn into Mars. We want earth to still be nice and green. What happened to Mars? How did that water go away? Why did it go away? Was it some type of greenhouse effect that literally burned all the water out? We know that there's not much atmosphere. So the water that was on there did leak out into space. It's now gone. But what happened? Was there anything living there. And they said about 3 billion years ago, there could have been something living there. That's almost the exact same time that things began to live on earth.
BALDWIN: It's incredible.
MYERS: It is. Good stuff.
BALDWIN: @marscuriosity, if you're a fellow space geek. A fantastic Twitter handle to follow. Chad, thank you very much.
MYERS: You're welcome.
BALDWIN: Coming up here, we are watching the chimney in Vatican City. Waiting to see if we might see the white smoke, which is perhaps highly unlikely here on this first day of the conclave, or black, or perhaps, as John Allen was pointing out, our Vatican expert, no smoke at all, meaning no vote today. We're watching in Rome. Back after this.
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BALDWIN: Want to pick up on that special coverage, "A New Pope," and take you back here as we watch under the night skies. It's about 7:15 there in Rome, Italy. You can't see it, but I promise there is a chimney and many people talking about being on smoke watch.
You know the drill. We are waiting as people are now filling in St. Peter's Square, awaiting a white smoke or black smoke. White smoke signifying the cardinals within this conclave, as this is day one of the conclave, have selected the next pope. That given the fact that this is first time they have met behind these closed, locked doors is unlikely. Possibly the black smoke, possibly even no vote at all. Anderson Cooper is there in Rome.
Anderson, set the scene for me.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is an extraordinary scene. And I'm here with Chris Cuomo and our John Allen, our Vatican analyst. Really a scene that we have seen so many times in our lifetime as the world stops and watches a very simple stove, very simple pipe, very simple chimney, waiting for word on whether or not a pope has been selected. It's very doubtful at this point this early on. This would be the first vote if, in fact, they are voting in this conclave. This would be the first vote. So it's very doubtful there will actually be a selection this time around. But it' sort of a warm-up and really just the first time, Chris and John, that we've seen large numbers of people coming in the last several days waiting in Vatican City -- in Vatican Square. Something that they can attend and be part of history for.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: That's right. It's worth remembering that the last time we saw a crowd like this was, of course, on February 27th, for Benedict's last general audience as pope. And, you know, when we're talking about what is likely to happen tonight, it's worth remembering this story began with a massive surprise, which was Benedict's stunning resignation announcement.
And having lived through that, I would say all bets are off. I mean, you know, if we got white smoke tonight, I would be stunned at one level. But on the heels of what we've already witnessed in the last month, in another, there would be a certain poetic ark to it.
COOPER: When you heard that he was resigning, what went through your mind at first? Did you -- I mean did you --
ALLEN: Honestly, Anderson, the truth is, I didn't believe it. My first phone call actually came from a friend of mine at the BBC, who was hearing -- we're hearing rumors that the pope is going to resign. And I thought this was along the order of the pope has grown -- grown a second head, you know, in terms of probability. And then it became clear that it had happened.
You know, looking back, obviously, Benedict had dropped hints. He gave an interview -- book length interview to a German journalist in 2010 in which he said that under some circumstances a pope would not only have the right but the duty to resign. He made two pilgrimages to the tomb of Pope Celestine V, who was the last pope to resign voluntarily in 1294. So you could kind of see it coming. But when it got there, it was still a stunner.
COOPER: Yes. And, Chris, it is -- I mean it really is very old school, watching this newly built chimney, but incredibly exciting, not only for all those 5,600 media personnel covering it, but the thousands which are already assembled right there in Peter's Square.
CUOMO: I don't know if there's anything like it left. John says that the Vatican has a great sense of theater and certainly it's that. They couldn't have a more beautiful setting than St. Peter's Square. But it's the contrast. These people are watching these liquid crystal displays, these huge screens, the most modern technology. And on that screen, a chimney that they just stick in the roof of the Sistine Chapel, put a couple of wires on it and then they have even this kind of almost comical way of burning things. They used to use straw, wet straw, dry straw. And now we wait for smoke that we almost could never decipher. We wait for bells that ring incongruously. And yet it adds to the mystique of the event. Whether or not you subscribe to the faith is irrelevant. It's just such an interesting spectacle that we're literally sitting here looking at a cheap monitor off camera right now and wondering, is that smoke? What color is it?
COOPER: And, John, for all those who are assembled in the square, it's not easy telling, even if you're standing right there, the chimney is not all that visible. It's quite small. It's newly constructed. And so it's not as if instantly people in the square can tell one way or the other whether it's white smoke or black smoke.
ALLEN: No, that's exactly right. I mean it's hard for us watching it on a screen. It's even harder if you're standing in the square, particularly depending on what your angle of vision is. Typically, people feed off one another's reaction. So if they get the buzz that, you know, something exciting is happening, you will hear this roar begin to build. But once it becomes clear that it is the white smoke, then, of course, what you get is this enormous acclimation from the crowd. And then, of course, people are on pins and needles waiting for that moment when the protodecan (ph) and the senior cardinal deacon steps out on that central loge (ph) of St. Peter's Basilica to not only give us the "habemus papam" announcement, but, of course, to give us the name of the new pope.
COOPER: We don't know for sure that there will be a vote even today, but this being the first day of the conclave. But if there is a vote, and assuming it's as -- it's pretty safe to assume that there wouldn't be an actual decision at this point, what happens after the conclave? What happens later tonight? I mean as they -- if they have voted, we'll get a sense of kind of a rough estimate of where the votes are, of who front runners may be, whose names are at least in contention. And there is there -- are there gatherings afterward tonight where they discuss the vote?
ALLEN: You know, I was telling Chris earlier that the first ballot in a conclave, it's a little bit like the New Hampshire primary of a presidential election. It's the first chance to get a sense -- a real sense of where people stand.
What will happen after things wrap up in the Sistine Chapel tonight, these cardinals will go back to the Casa Santa Marta, that's the hotel on Vatican grounds where they're stay. There will be a meal where everyone eats together. But then after that, they have free time. And so in twos and threes and 10s and 20s, they'll be having informal conversations with one another. And (INAUDIBLE) tax (ph) time. I mean this guy got 27 votes, just to pick a number out of the air. Do we think he can get the 77 or should we be looking for somebody else? Or is there somebody whose name didn't show up on that first round who might actually make it in the second, third, fourth and so on? That's where the kind of political heavy lifting, so to speak --
COOPER: And the conversations really are that -- that blunt?
ALLEN: Oh, absolutely. I mean I've interviewed -- last time I interviewed two-thirds of the cardinals who took part in the 2005 conclave afterwards and they would say, at that stage, they know the chips are down, because, Anderson, the last thing they want is for this thing to go on too long.
I mean, first of all, of course, they want to get this one done by holy week, which begins with Palm Sunday on the 24th. But secondly, if they stay there too long, it's going to look like gridlock and paralysis. They don't want that.
COOPER: There could not be a more glorious site than watching this at this hour with these lights. It's really extraordinary.
BALDWIN: Anderson and Chris and John, I thank you all. We'll take you back to Vatican City here momentarily.
Want to continue on with other news, including, do women and men compete differently in the workplace? We've been talking a lot the last 24 hours about women at work and this new book called "Lean In." Sheryl Sandberg, her new message about women in the workplace, being more aggressive. Got two other authors to talk to who have some thoughts to share on the biology of guilt and who's more competitive, who are the risk takers, how can we benefit, coming up, in the workplace.
BALDWIN: A quick reminder before we go on to what women want here. Let's take a live picture, if we have it, in Rome, as we are waiting possibly here day one of this conclave. There is a chimney somewhere amidst the night sky here in Rome, in Vatican City. Might there be a vote? Might we see black or white smoke? We will let you know any minute now.
Meantime, what do women want? The question is top of mind after two very powerful women are flexing some serious muscle. You have on one hand, Sheryl Sandberg, COO of FaceBook,, the latest "Time" magazine cover star. She just came out with this new book, it's everywhere. The crux of her message, lean in, pushing women to be more aggressive in their careers.
But then you have Marissa Mayer, Yahoo!'s CEO, who caused quite the kerfuffle here as she was cracking down on her employees working from home. So she is standing by her controversial new policy, no telecommuting.
Both women, bucking the trend, succeeding where men dominate. Our question today is, why? What's behind that? Why are fewer women winning in today's world compared to men? The authors of this book have an explanation. It's called "Top Dog: The Science of Winning and Losing." And it says, much of it actually has to do with how women handle risk and guilt. Authors Ashley Merryman and Po Bronson are with me now.
PO BRONSON, "TOP DOG: THE SCIENCE OF WINNING & LOSING": Thank you.
ASHLEY MERRYMAN, "TOP DOG: THE SCIENCE OF WINNING & LOSING": Hi. Thanks.
BALDWIN: So much to work through. But first, Ashley, I'm starting with you. Competition. Give me one main example here where women and men differ when it comes to just blood, sweat and tears at work over one another.
MERRYMAN: Well, you know, the story is that women are less competitive than men. But the research doesn't support that. What the research shows is that women are more concerned with winning than men. Men will --
BALDWIN: Women are?
MERRYMAN: Yes. Men will compete if they have a chance. Women refuse to waste time with losing. So women are good at figuring out the odds. Men are good at ignoring the odds. So in a workplace environment, women tend to be 7.3 percent more accurate as Wall Street financial analysts.
BALDWIN: So a great financial analysts, but we're not always sort of like, you know, bulling through something, taking the risk, no matter what --
BRONSON: Political campaigning.
BALDWIN: Political campaigns.
BRONSON: In Silicon Valley, at the startup level, men still outnumber women two to one. But that's probably about the right biological predisposition we have towards risk. Two-thirds of men are going to have a predisposition towards risk, one-third of women. So as you go higher up and you see that only 7 percent of venture capitalists are women, or only 4.3 percent of venture capital funded startups are founded by women, that you begin to wonder what else is going on.