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Jodi`s Last Shot?; Cannibal Cop
Aired March 12, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias, sex kitten or psycho?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: I considered other forms of sex. I mean, sex on the hood of the car, little red riding hood fantasy.
PINSKY: Man magnet or manipulative witch?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would say things like, I don`t know what I`ll do if I can`t have him.
PINSKY: Men who knew her are here and they`re taking your calls.
Plus, the behavior bureau is back.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: When you were telling you`re fearful for your life, you better not be showing me uncertainty with your body language.
PINSKY: Is Jodi`s secret strategy going to work? Or will it be Jodi`s last stand?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening everybody.
Welcome to the show. I don`t know about you guys, but I flashed through a whole range of emotions, mostly not good when I watch that footage.
This week, my co-host Lisa Bloom.
Did you react at all, Lisa?
LISA BLOOM, CO-HOST: Yes. It makes your skin crawl.
PINSKY: It makes your skin crawl at times. Then at the end of it I think could I be too harsh? No, I`m being too harsh.
BLOOM: No. Not with Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: Lisa Bloom is with avo.com.
Joining Lisa and myself, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at SpeaktoMark.com and author and also, our human lie detector, the author of "You Can`t Lie to Me", Janine Driver.
Jodi back on the stand tomorrow. So far, she`s given us plenty to talk about, guys. But let`s take a look in case you missed something. Take a look.
JUDGE: You stated you bought a gun to commit suicide, but never ended up doing it. What stopped you from doing so? How many times did you try to kill yourself?
ARIAS: I believe that was in California when I took apart my razor.
JUDGE: How is it that you were so calm on the television interviews?
ARIAS: I wanted to portray that, that I`m confident and that I`m OK, that I didn`t do this, no worries. That`s what I really wanted to get across at that time. And then I wanted to kill myself so I would never have to own up.
I don`t know if I ate the banana first or I took a shower first.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: All right. At some point, before or after the banana, you took a shower?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: There`ve been many times when you have been, like miserable and I`ve like, raped you. I didn`t like the Pop Rocks as much as I liked the Tootsie Roll part though. I mean, it`s gong to be like legitimate porn.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
JUDGE: Did you record other phone sex conversations?
MARTINEZ: Would it surprise you that Walmart does not have any record of any refund for a gas can on that date of June 3rd of 2008?
ARIAS: Considering that I returned it, that would surprise me.
When I sort of came out of the fog, I realized oh, crap, something bad had happened.
MARTINEZ: You were here when he testified, right?
MARTINEZ: So it could be that he did place his hands between your legs, right?
ARIAS: No. It could be that he was full of crap.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After you dropped the camera, how did you feel?
ARIAS: I was scared. I was thinking crap, because this is -- and so I was thinking I believe they found out because the dog got in because I didn`t shut the door all the way and woke them up. And so, I don`t think they waited up for me because they were asleep when I got back. And I went to sleep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re saying Mr. Alexander masturbated to the image of a child. Why would you not write that in your journal?
ARIAS: Because imagine writing something like that, like, you know, I walked in on Travis (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pictures of kids. It was almost the angriest I`ve ever seen him. His anger escalated after the gun went off. I was afraid he was going to bring me to that edge again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The edge being what?
PINSKY: All right. Listen. Give me the whole panel up here because I want to go -- before we go to the courthouse, I want to go to Janine.
Janine, did you notice something there when she was asked -- how long, how many times did you try to kill yourself? It was like -- and then when she went to the lies why you told her, what you were trying to communicate to the police and lied, she jumped right all over that. Did you notice that?
DRIVER: Yes, that change in that cadence. It`s very interesting.
And we also noticed there, Dr. Drew, you may have picked up on it, she pulled her lips in. And if you remember, my expression is, when we don`t like what we see or hear, our lips suddenly disappear. And we`ve seen this with Weinergate. We`ve seen this --
PINSKY: My lips disappear most of the show when I hear Jodi talks. So, there`s something to that. Watch my lips. We`ll see when I don`t like things.
All right, Janine.
Let`s go to Beth Karas out of the courthouse where everyone is preparing for Jodi`s return.
Beth, what is the latest?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, after a five day hiatus, tomorrow morning, it will be day 18 of Jodi Arias on the stand -- 18 consecutive trial days and Juan Martinez is getting another crack at her. He was questioning her on Thursday when court broke for this long hiatus. He will be back at it we assume in rare form as he continues to grill her, challenging her, because it is his position that not only did she lie, repeatedly, as she admits before she was arrested, to the lead detective as Esteban Flores.
But she`s lied repeatedly to this jury. And he intends to prove it. He has already been going over three areas.
I assume there will be more areas of inquiry where the jurors ask where he believes she lied.
PINSKY: Now, that is going to be the prosecution.
Mark, you say, you simply wanted to address something specifically. You have said to one of my producers, I guess, that you believe the defense`s performance is laughable. Now my panel is going to sit here and listen to you and give you one minute to tell us why that`s so.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Well, listen. It`s not one single thing. And the entire performance has been laughable -- not only her story itself, but the conflicts in the fact that it doesn`t agree with the other evidence in the case. The only thing she hasn`t done yet and we might see it tomorrow is her blaming George Anthony.
EIGLARSH: What I`m most concerned about is what we`re going to see next, Drew. Here`s what I`m most concern, because we expect this from Jodi.
PINSKY: There we go.
EIGLARSH: We know that Jodi has lied in the past. She`ll continue to lie.
But here`s what I`m most concerned about. When the defense calls their experts and they`ve got the academic pedigrees and they raised their right hand and they swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, and they`re going to claim not just generically that people go through shock, and they don`t remember certain things, they`re most likely going to say that they`ve met with her. And they believe that there`s credibility to what she`s saying, which then means that they`re going to try to sell to this jury and it`s not only laughable, but it`s abhorrent and it`s pathetic and sad.
BLOOM: But it`s all they`ve got, Mark.
EIGLARSH: That after shooting -- I know it`s all they`ve got, but you know what?
BLOOM: What are they going to do? They`re going to put on an expert.
And you know what, Mark? The jury -- I`m going to make a prediction right now. The jury is not going to base its decision on anything that Jodi Arias says in its 18 days or it could be a hundred days of testimony, or on her expert. That`s just not going to be a factor in their decision.
PINSKY: That`s been a big part of this whole thing. What has the sex got to do with this? Why this all --
BLOOM: And they`re going to be offended. The jurors --
PINSKY: I think they are. I think they are.
And, Janine, do you agree with some of those questions that the jurors are asking that there`s a suggestion of mocking of Jodi -- to (INAUDIBLE) Jodi?
DRIVER: Yes, I do think that and, you know, I say something I`ve never said this on national television before. You know, I work for law enforcement and I dated -- when I was about 23 years old, I dated a prominent attorney in Hartford, Connecticut and he beat the living daylights out of me, almost killed me. I remember, he was pounding as hard as he could, he was strangling.
When I got up I didn`t run upstairs to get a knife that`s not sharp or a gun that`s not loaded. The first thing I thought is I need to get outside because I need to be around people who are going to see me or hear me. And I remember running outside and my heart was raising. He just literally pounded my heart with his fist for 25 minutes. I thought I was going to drop dead that day.
PINSKY: Janine, Janine --
DRIVER: So I take a personal offense to what she`s saying that she was battered.
BLOOM: A lot of domestic violence victims feel that way when you hear from them on Twitter or on social media. You know, I`ve written about this on my blog. That this is an insult to people who are truly --
DRIVER: It`s embarrassing.
PINSKY: Janine, thank for sharing it.
DRIVER: I`m from law enforcement. Well, I`m from law enforcement. I don`t talk about it. I`m from law enforcement. It happens to all of us.
When you fall in love with someone, you overlook and they start to isolate you. So, my concern here is with all her lies, if she is found not guilty, which I don`t think is going to happen, if she is, the injustice it`s going to do for all the women who are really hurt, who are really abused, the injustice it`s going to do.
PINSKY: Janine, Mark, last comment. Then I`ve got to go to break.
EIGLARHS: The worst part is those experts if they come in here, that will be worse -- Jodi doing it is one thing but to come in here with their rainbow wigs and their red noses and their flowers from their lapel that shoot water, that maybe the biggest thing because only clowns can come up with those theories.
PINSKY: All right, guys.
Next up, the behavior bureau says the stakes, of course, are going to be high for Jodi tomorrow.
And later, what was it about Jodi Arias that attracted a bunch of men. And what`s causing here to -- what is it about her that makes them recoil now. We`ll talk to some guys who knew her and knew her well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it Mr. Alexander`s preference that your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) be hairless?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever explain why?
ARIAS: He just said he didn`t like hair.
is words are worst sometimes, usually.
I was afraid that he would get angrier and start maybe that he would continue to swear at me in text messages or that he would just start calling me names.
I felt bullied like it was just miserable because I don`t know. I didn`t stop talking to him. But we would talk. And then he would be nice and then he would be mean. And then he would be nice and then he would be mean.
He has zero tolerance for traffic jams. So he began to get angry. He told me that a five year old can hold a camera better than I can.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he`s yelling at you and telling you that you shouldn`t be hanging out with John dickhead, did you have this reaction?
ARIAS: Yes. It was very stressful.
MARTINEZ: He got this mean look on this face that you talk about.
ARIAS: When he picked me up, I looked in his face.
MARTINEZ: And you saw this mean look on his face, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why were you the one who purchased the K-Y jelly?
ARIAS: When it was discussed that I would -- we would buy it, he refused.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time again for the behavior bureau.
OK. I get it. He was nice. He was mean. He was nice. He was mean. And he wouldn`t buy the K-Y jelly. Twenty-nine stab wounds and a bullet to the head.
BLOOM: I mean it`s ridiculous. The jury is not going to fall for this. It`s so much minutia. You know, it`s just bad communication.
Like you make a couple good points and you get out. Eighteen days of this, the jury is going to say, forget. I don`t care about --
PINSKY: It would have been much better if they`d wrapped this up a week or so ago.
Back with my co-host, Lisa Bloom.
Joining us, attorney and criminologist Casey Jordan, therapist Tiffanie Davis Henry, and the human lie detector, Janine Driver.
Janine, Casey, and then, Tiffanie, your reaction to the clips we just saw? Janine, you first.
DRIVER: Hey, listen, I remember when I was pregnant with my first son Angus, which was seven years ago, when I was pregnant, I went in and I had an ovarian cyst. I had a major surgery.
When I woke up from the surgery, my husband was nowhere to be found. The doctor couldn`t find him, the nurse. He went out to get coffee.
I was so angry with him, but I didn`t go stab him 29 times and --
PINSKY: You didn`t? I`m confuse.
Casey, your next, didn`t you go stab somebody that was mean to you? Or maybe has zero tolerance in traffic jams?
CASEY JORDAN, ATTORNEY: Right. Thank God I`m not on trial for that particular thing or I`d be in trouble.
Listen, I mean, the bottom line, it was a huge mistake for her to be on saying all this stuff. There`s no one that can corroborate that he was this evil, horrible, abusive person that Jodi says he is.
PINSKY: And quite -- in fact, quite the contrary.
JORDAN: And that the more she talks --
JORDAN: Exactly. They have nothing but the opposite. So the more she talks, I don`t know why her defense attorneys are letting her talk so much. The more she proves she`s a liar.
BLOOM: And if he was so terrible, why did she drive a thousand miles to go see him?
PINSKY: Hold on, Lisa, I`m going to get to that in just a second.
I`m going to give Tiffanie a chance first. Go ahead, Tiffanie.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., THERAPIST: You know what? This is the type of patient or client that I would see that would make me cringe because she is a walking contradiction. Everything that she says, her actions don`t add up.
You know, I hated having anal sex, but I`ll go buy the lube, you know?
HENRY: I hate Travis, he`s horrible person, but I love him to death.
This type of behavior and this juxtaposition that she kind of puts her solve in says two thins to me. It says co-dependency but it says personality disorder.
PINSKY: I think, first, sort of, Casey, don`t you agree with me. So, I`m going to ask Casey, first tonight, a story you and I talked about this borderline features which I think was Tiffanie was alluding to.
And then, finally, let`s discuss the profile of a real abuse survivor. Janine told us a hair-raising story a few moments ago. Tell us what`s different about Casey as somebody who`s actually in a domestic abuse situation. I say Casey Anthony, what have I thought to.
JORDAN: You mean Jodi.
PINSKY: Jodi, yes, thank you.
JORDAN: You mean, Jodi.
PINSKY: Yes, Jodi, of course. I call you Casey Anthony, I call Jodi Casey, you know what I`m talking about.
HENRY: Bad, bad, bad.
INSKY: Go ahead. Casey, go ahead.
JORDAN: Well, OK. The most important thing, I read a really good article that went down systematically and talked about the eight characteristics of the sociopathic personality, right? The social -- the irritability, the aggressiveness, the manipulation, the pathological lying. The only thing that`s missing with Jodi arias is that we don`t have signs of this before the age of 15.
PINSKY: That`s right.
JORDAN: And to be a true DSM diagnosis, you really need to have that consistent --
HENRY: Well, that we know of.
JORDAN: -- and persistent since the early teen years. That we know of.
I actually think, Dr. Drew, I wonder what you think about this. Could this be one for the textbooks where they actually change the DSM and allow it to be something that shows up later in life?
PINSKY: No, I don`t think that will happen. I don`t think that will happen. But I think because she isn`t one specific thing you can be a confluence of form frosts (ph) we call that of different disorders all at once. And as we discussed --
HENRY: I agree.
PINSKY: -- many times and, Tiffanie, you agree with me, right?
HENRY: I absolutely agree. What I look at when I look at the DSM IV and what I looked at it last night and looked at it this morning, in conjunction with this case, she`s actually got features of everything that falls under the cluster B.
PINSKY: Right. The narcissistic --
BLOOM: Wait, wait. What`s cluster B?
HENRY: She`s got narcissistic. She`s got histrionics. She`s got -- it`s Jodi Arias, OK? Look it up. Her picture is right there.
PINSKY: And, Janine, finally, give us what your, clarify some of this for us with body language and what you`re seeing in her patterns.
DRIVER: This is what you look for with behavior, with patterns. You`re looking for, when you watch her, do you feel what she feels. When she talks about getting the gun, do you feel expressions in her face?
I was getting emotional talking about the attorney I dated I was in my 20s.
PINSKY: Yes, we felt it deeply.
DRIVER: I remember being scared to death and you get emotional.
When Nancy Grace tells her story about her fiance getting murdered when she was a young kid, when you hear Nancy tell the story, you get emotional.
And, you know, even notorious liars, you felt, you know? Athletes, when they come out. Marion Jones left a couple little babies at home. When she came clean she`s like I`m sorry. I let down my fans, I let down my team.
You fall in love with her when she`s telling the truth. You simply are not falling in love with Jodi Arias.
BLOOM: Yes, she never has any compassion for anybody else.
BLOOM: Is that the hallmarks of being a sociopath?
PINSKY: He was mean, he was nice. He was mean, he was nice. Kill.
Next, our behavior bureau tells us -- is there going to be a lethal verdict for Jodi or not.
And later, Jodi Arias had a way with men. We`ve heard that over and over again. So, what was it about her?
We`re going to talk to some men who knew her and get your thoughts as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: Were you mad at Travis while you were stabbing him?
ARIAS: I don`t recall fear being a prominent -- I mean, sorry. I mean anger being a prominent -- I don`t remember being angry that day. I remember being terrified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s the behavior bureau again.
We`re back with the juror question to our human lie detector.
Janine Driver, you loved that response so much because it showed her talking about feelings that she magically remembered. Whoop, the fog cleared for a second. And then it went back in for a second, right?
DRIVER: Right, right. She`s got the magic crystal ball. You know, I`ve said, we`ve said a million times, she`s a memory disappears when it helps her. And it`s there when it only hurts Travis` image.
But, you know, that`s not reality. Reality is this. You know, we remember details. We do lose memory right after an event.
So, in law enforcement, when we would do a witness testimony or a winter interview, we do what`s called cognitive interviewing. We`ll interview the potential witness right after the crime. We`ll interview them the next day.
And 72 hours later a lot of details tend to come back. That`s how we caught Susan Smith. Susan Smith who killed her kids in the early `90s and put them in a car seat. Guess what? It was the sketch artist.
The sketch artist draws usually as much as they write. But guess what? With Susan Smith, she`s gave the description and she said yeah, that`s him. Two days later the sketch artist says to Susan Smith, any changes? You know, any changes in his features. And she said no, that`s him.
And the sketch artist says this is the change in the typical baseline of an honest person. Law enforcement look into Susan Smith and we see it with Jodi. That master manipulator.
PINSKY: Janine, I want you to know that you told us a very emotional story that just before the break of the last segment, before last, and I want you to know, there`s been a lot of support for you out on Twitter.
Not only that, specifically about what the issue raised of it being offensive to other domestic violence survivors. I see the emotion on your face. People are thinking about you. They know what you know. And they feel what you feel, both from the standpoint of having been a victim and being offended by Jodi and her lies and stories.
BLOOM: And, Janine, this brings this out from a lot of women and I`m sending you a big hug right now because we`re not in the same place. But a lot of women are having this reaction to this trial.
I was abused. I was molested. I was exploited. And how dare she make up a lie like that to defend herself after what she did.
DRIVER: Right. It`s the last thing you would say. It`s like lying and saying you had a miss carriage and you were never pregnant but you hope to have a baby some day. It is atrocious.
And, you know, someone like me, especially in law enforcement, to get blindsided, you feel like a fool. And so, when I see -- I flew out here. I`m in Arizona to see this case because I don`t want to be blindsided like we were with Casey Anthony. I want this jury to find her guilty. I want to look at the jury tomorrow to weigh in.
PINSKY: All right. So, let me ask this question, I`m going to ask it of all four of you, starting with Janine. If Jodi Arias is convicted of first-degree murder which pretty much everyone thinks that`s likely to happen.
BLOOM: She will be, yes.
PINSKY: Will the jury give her the death sentence? Start with Janine.
DRIVER: I think yes. If you asked me two weeks ago, I would have said no. But based on the 200-plus questions that we had -- I think I just lost my mic. There we go. Sorry about that.
PINSKY: We`ll finish up there, Janine. Go ahead. Please. Love live television.
DRIVER: Well, I was just going to say based on the question -- I know it`s live TV. I`m human.
So, based on all the questions, I think it is highly likely that she will get the death penalty. And I think it`s going to be record breaking. We`ll be talking about it for years. I`m hoping she does.
JORDAN: No. And they will want to, but they won`t be able to do it. You have 11 men and one woman. And men are simply socialized you don`t do physically harm to women.
They will have no problem finding her guilty, but they cannot send Jodi Arias, sociopathic as she is, to the death chamber.
And the bottom line is, they know she won`t actually be executed so why even bother. I think they`ll be satisfied that she will be miserable in prison.
BLOOM: The law and order state.
HENRY: Wow. You know what? This is a difficult question for me because as a therapist, I never want to inflict harm on anyone or say that they`re going to be harmed but what we have I haven`t seen in this case is evident that Travis actually deserved to die. And that`s -- you know, what the defense hasn`t proven yet, and this is someone who is cold, who is calculated, who`s lied upon lied upon lied.
And because of that I think she has the potential to be put to death.
PINSKY: Lisa, last thought.
BLOOM: So, let me just tell you briefly, Drew. In this country, death sentences have gone down and down and down every year and especially, it`s very hard to get death penalty against a woman. But this is Arizona. A tough law and order state.
This jury has seen a lot of lies -- I`m going to say yes.
PINSKY: OK. Next up, our behavior bureau --
DRIVER: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, quick.
DRIVER: I was going to say my grandmother, my relatives are in Canada. And my grandmother used to say you kill my cat, I`ll kill your dog. So I believe that the crime should be -- the punishment should match the crime. So I say put her to the death penalty.
PINSKY: Janine, brutal.
BLOOM: An eye for an eye.
JORDAN: We all agree, but they`re not going to do it. We all agree they`re not going to do it.
PINSKY: All right. Now, later on, if you could roll up for me. Jodi Arias has a way with men. What is it about her? Two who know her are here. We`ll talk to them and we`ll talk to you as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first time I ever saw Jodi, I just got a really creepy, creepy vibe from her. And I said, man, you`ve got to stay away from her, buddy. You know, she`s bad news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would say things like I don`t know what I`ll I do if I can`t have him, or you know, he`d be such a great father to my children.
TAYLOR SEARLE, FRIEND OF VICTIM REACTS TO JODI`S TESTIMONY: Jodi was wrong thing at the wrong time for him and just turned out to be a disease that he picked up.
GUS SEARCY, FIRST INTERVIEW ABOUT JODI: He was simply using her. I mean, he was out dating nice other girls and then coming back and, you know, using her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your butt has gotten large after (INAUDIBLE).
VOICE OF JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: Well, it kind of (INAUDIBLE) that sticks out.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host this week, Lisa Bloom. Now, Jodi Arias and men. What was it that made them so drawn to her? And what do they think of her now is even more interesting?
We`re joined by Josh Denne and Abe Abdelhadi. Both men knew Travis and Jodi. All right. Abe, you our go-to-guy. We just heard a clip of Travis responding to Jodi`s body. Is that something that men sort of find themselves falling over themselves to get to?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Well, what guy doesn`t? I wouldn`t say falling over oneself here in Los Angeles (ph). I could throw a rock in this town and hit a pretty girl. The point is is just that --
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Please don`t.
ABDELHADI: Well, I`m just simply saying that, you know, this big mystique thing, this Mars and Venus nonsense, look, at the time I knew her, I was a little bit older than she was. She was a cute girl with a cute butt. She had this long blonde hair went all the way to said (ph) butt. It was awesome.
And I thought great. She could construct a sentence. How bad could it be? Hindsight being 20/20, fine. But everyone knew this, like, oh, how could you. I had no idea. If she told me at the time she just killed somebody, I don`t know if we would have gotten dinner.
PINSKY: All right. First enough. Josh, your first impression compared to what you think of her now?
JOSH DENNE, KNOW JODI ARIAS: Jodi, my first impression, she was the type of girl that wanted to introduce herself to anybody that was doing well or any one that could, I think, further whatever she wanted to do in life. And she just -- she creeped me out, quite honestly when I saw her. I mean, she was an attractive woman but just had something strange with her.
PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, I think everyone kind of -- I can`t get a focus on what these guys are talking about. Hot chick. They`re sexually attractive. They think she`s sort of good to go. Is that what they`re telling us?
BLOOM: I think so.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think so. But there is nothing at all sexy about a stalker, first of all.
EIGLARSH: And the person who`s capable of torturing Travis the way that she did. But I think equally as bad is that she`s torturing his family now every day that she`s on the stand. And I do want to add one thing that I don`t think people have spoken about. In an interview with "48 Hours," the detective said when he went to arrest her, that she was very calm and the one request that she had of him, was can i have a moment? I want to go get my purse so I can put on some makeup.
PINSKY: Yes. Ooh, sounds like Casey Anthony.
PINSKY: That is a Casey Anthony move.
BLOOM: OK. This is a question I have for you, because I think this man issue is one of the more fascinating issues in this case.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree.
BLOOM: All right. So, obviously, men like her because she`s attractive.
PINSKY: They liked her.
BLOOM: Past tense. OK.
BLOOM: Liked her because she`s attractive --
PINSKY: Now, the fact that they like her, and Abe and Josh, please feel free to weigh in on this if you want. The fact that you liked her freaks you out even more now.
BLOOM: OK, but here`s my question --
ABDELHADI: Absolutely. And it freaks this jury out too, by the way.
PINSKY: That`s what I think.
ABDELHADI: The male jury -- the punch line to this is not attracted by her mystique. They`re going to convict her and she`s going to die.
BLOOM: OK, but here`s my question, because in all these studies about when men see a beautiful woman in bikini --
BLOOM: -- their IQ droops right into the toilet.
BLOOM: They get really stupid.
BLOOM: Is this case a good example of that?
PINSKY: It`s a great example. Mark, hang on one second. It`s a great example, but --
BLOOM: Why do you guys fall for these pretty women without getting to know them a little better?
PINSKY: That`s grease (ph) for a whole other conversation. What I want people to understand now, Mark, you back me up on this, is that this is the case. Men know that about themselves, and now, they`re seeing what this woman is capable of and it freaks them out that they`re like that
BLOOM: But isn`t this a cautionary tale?
PINSKY: Yes, it is. Mark, go ahead. Mark.
EIGLARSH: Lisa, they`ve never done studies on hot women who then do what she did, what she admits to doing. I don`t think anyone is attracted to that. And I think these jurors or any one who`s claiming these jurors are enamored by her at this point? Forget about it.
PINSKY: Janine, finish this up. Who was the man that rung -- was that Josh?
DENNE: Yes. I`m just saying. I agree. I agree exactly with what he just said. I don`t think anyone is enamored with her. I don`t think anyone is thinking that she`s attractive in any way right now. She is absolutely disgusting and repulsing (ph) people at this point.
PINSKY: Yes. If that`s the point, though, as you guys -- Abe, you know what I`m talking about. You were attracted and look what you were attracted to.
ABDELHADI: If I had a crystal ball, I would go to San Anita (ph) race track and I would make bazillion dollars. We don`t know the future, Drew.
PINSKY: No. I understand. I understand. Janine, please finish this up on this.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Here`s the deal, Dr. Drew. I`m in the business of looking for behavior. My life mission is to stop bad people from doing bad things, and although, Jodi Arias is crazy and she did this, good-looking healthy men are at home dating stalkers, and they might think it`s kind of cool or they didn`t go away.
We don`t think you`re the person, if you eat another Big Mac, you`re the person that`s going to have a heart attack. You think it`s not going to happen to you where the people at home just because they watch this case, it`s not going to change their outcome, unfortunately, and they might need --
BLOOM: -- that they should be looking for more than a pretty face? Isn`t that the bottom line?
PINSKY: This guys, I think -- look, listen, it`s why guys are fascinated. It`s why guys are learning maybe from this, and they need to check --
DRIVER: I hope so.
PINSKY: Thank you to the panel. Speaking of checking --
DRIVER: And Lisa. Lisa --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Janine.
DRIVER: -- it`s not the face. It`s not the face, Lisa. Sorry, I`m just saying to Lisa. It`s not the face that they`re talking about. It`s that cute little butt of hers.
PINSKY: I`m going to try to get some of your calls. But speaking of check yourselves, check out HLN after dark starting tomorrow at 10. This is a new special series that puts a nighttime spin on HLN`s all-day coverage of this Jodi Arias trial. It runs Monday through Thursday for the rest of the trial. I`ll be participating in that.
Next up, call the men who knew Jodi, 855-DrDrew-5.
And later, my jury is back. They`re back on the case. How did they like Jodi? How would they think Jodi is likely to be punished if she is convicted? Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told me that at that point they had a stalker and that she had actually followed us on a date.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You indicated that part of what he told you was that this stalker was a female, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what had this female done that he was warning you about?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had slashed his tires several times. She had slashed his -- he had dated someone earlier that year. She had slashed her tires. She had sent threatening e-mails to both Travis and the, his girlfriend of the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Amy Hall (ph), a friend of Travis recalling how he talked about a female stalker. Jodi? I`m just saying. Lisa Bloom with me this week. Josh, I`m going to go out to you. Did you have any sense that that was in this woman?
DENNE: When I first met her, that was my instinct. You know, she just supposed -- she just had something off with her. It was challenging me (ph). Obviously, she was an attractive woman. She`s not being portrayed like she is in the court, you know? She`s bleach blonde hair. She dressed provocative and that was her.
But instantly, I mean, I didn`t get her phone number. I didn`t want to associate with her. So, for me, I was just saying this earlier. It`s like she`s -- she just -- she had that weird energy about her and it repelled me.
PINSKY: Repellant. That`s good, Josh. That`s good instinct. Let`s go to some calls, guys. Kathy in New Hampshire -- Kathy.
KATHY, NEW HAMPSHIRE. Hi, Dr. Drew.
KATHY: I think that Jodi`s looks for sensuality and her phony aura of innocent personally attracts the men. And then she flatters them or acts really needs, and when they find out she`s willing to participate in kinky sex, they`re sold.
BLOOM: Well, that sums right up (ph).
KATHY: Abe, you agree?
ABDELHADI: Well, I didn`t get that far with her, so I don`t have any firsthand knowledge of that. However, there is an attractive to her. And you know, like I said, when I went out with her, I thought it would just be fun for a little while. I got on her MySpace page. She had all these superfluous adjectives about how great she was and blah, blah, blah.
And I thought, OK, I can`t take this too seriously, but you know, it`ll be fun for a little bit. We`ll see what happens.
PINSKY: Let`s go to Tim in Pennsylvania -- Tim.
TIM, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
TIM: I think that the real underlying issue in this case is not the alleged history of abuse, but as a result of her atypical relationships, Jodi Arias never really understood love or how to deal with the everyday give-and-take of a normal relationship. Do you agree?
PINSKY: Tim, I do agree. You know, she dated a vampire (ph), if you remember, in school. Her relationships were not good and stable. But there`s so much packed into that statement, Tim. I know it sounds like it makes sense, but how people conduct themselves in their interpersonal relationships is where all their psychopathology comes out. That`s where we really see it. Janine, you back me up on that?
DRIVER: I do. Yes. Definitely. It`s that combination. There are people who start out bad, bad beginning and become very successful. Do you think Oprah had a beautiful childhood? Look at it. You know, Bill Clinton, his father died three months before he was born in a car accident in the side of the road. You can turn a terrible beginning into a great life and make a difference. You don`t have to become a psychopath.
PINSKY: But -- I absolutely agree. And even people that -- well, let`s just say that people`s liabilities, whatever they might be, do express themselves in their interpersonal lives and these two, the alchemy of these two people was dynamite. It was bad times. It was bad for him. And he had to hide it. He couldn`t reach out and get help.
He knew he was in trouble. It was bad for her because of all the liabilities we`ve been talking about. Debbie in Utah.
DEBBIE, UTAH: Hi, Dr. Drew.
DEBBIE: I just -- first of all, Jodi needs to be punished for killing Travis. But, on the sex tape, he says more than once that she sounds like a 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. That is never OK to refer to a child like that.
PINSKY: We agree.
PINSKY: We don`t disagree. Lisa --
BLOOM: Yes. Absolutely, you know? And I`m glad you pointed that out. That is not OK. And you know, whatever she may have done in response is horrific, but that is not OK. It`s not acceptable. And what I love about this case is it`s bringing so many women out of the wood work to say what is and isn`t OK these days.
You know, what Jodi arias did, saying that she`s a domestic violence victim, that`s not OK with us any more, you know? You can`t play it both ways. And she can`t tell him she liked to being debate (ph), for example, and then come into trial and say he was abusing her. We, women can`t do that.
DRIVER: I got to tell you this. Someone just said to me last week. They Facebook me and they said, what if, just what if, Jodi Arias gave him a script and said read this. This will turn me on. It will be phone sex. You read it. She audiotaped it because I don`t audiotape my husband when we argue.
PINSKY: I know. Yes. Right.
DRIVER: What if that happened? We don`t know why, because Travis Alexander isn`t alive to answer why did he say it. Who knows? Maybe it was a script. She said do this, it`ll turn me on.
PINSKY: She slathered it (ph). Mark, last words here.
EIGLARSH: What bothers me the most is that all of this is irrelevant to what happened that day.
PINSKY: That`s right.
EIGLARSH: And I feel so bad for Travis and his family that this is even coming to light. Nobody`s perfect, but this has nothing to do with the issue of domestic abuse and self-defense.
PINSKY: Next, are you ready to convict Jodi or would you set her free? We`re going to hear what my jurors think.
Later, the ultimate social media horror story ends with a conviction. We`re talking about cannibalism acted out on the internet. Cannibal cop convicted after this. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: It is time for Drew`s jury. The real jury may still be on a long weekend, but our jury is on the job. Back with my co-host, Lisa Bloom. Joining us, jurors, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. All right. Katie, here we go. We`re going to put you on a hypothetical jury and say this is a matter of life or death. Do you believe she will get death if convicted?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Two weeks ago, I would tell you no, Dr. Drew. Today, absolutely. One of the questions that one of the jurors actually asked last week was regarding the wounds. Comparing the wounds, they asked Jodi, would you in essence say that Travis suffered more wounds than you did. They said basically, you got a bump on the head. Supposedly, you got a messed up finger.
Travis Alexander had 29 stab wounds, a slit throat, and a gunshot to the head. And I`m already thinking in my mind, Dr. Drew, I know it is not -- it doesn`t represent the jury in total. It`s one question, but if their mind is already going to that, because in the state of Arizona, the law for self-defense has to be equal amount of force.
WICK: So, 29 stab wounds versus an injured finger, huh-uh. They`re already thinking death penalty, I think. So, yes, I think she`s going to get it.
PINSKY: All right. Stacey, let me flip it around a little bit and see if you were actually on the jury, would you convict her and would you put her to death?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": I definitely would convict her. I think all the evidence, I think everything at this point, it`s not really going to be a matter of if she`s convicted or not. I think it`s now we just need to focus on is this death penalty or is this life in prison.
PINSKY: And what do you think? If it were you? If it were you? If it were you, would it be?
FAIRRINGTON: If it was me, OK. Well, I think it`s a hard thing to give anybody the death penalty.
FAIRRINGTON: But I do agree that -- I think that would be something that you would really need to think about. But I think, at this point, I think given the jury information they have with the stab wounds, with the photos and everything else, I think that`s going to actually help them go towards that decision.
PINSKY: But Lisa, I think I hear her saying if she were there, she couldn`t quite do it.
BLOOM: I love her answer, because this is what jurors go through in death penalty cases.
BLOOM: And this is a death qualified jury, which means all of the jurors have been already prescreened to say yes, I could impose the death penalty if the circumstances were right. Anybody who`s completely anti- death penalty, like me, could not be on the jury. All right? But people crafted (ph) with the big jurors rise to the occasion. All the study showed that nobody just flippantly, or you know, cavalierly says, OK, death. Jurors take this very, very seriously.
PINSKY: Let`s take some calls for my jury. Hang on a second, ladies. Joseph in New Jersey, you got something for the jury?
JOSEPH, NEW JERSEY: Yes, I do.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
JOSEPH: I do not think they have the stomach to give her the death penalty. I would give her the death penalty if I were on the jury, but I don`t think they have the stomach.
BLOOM: This is a man. Remember, some people were saying men can`t propose the death penalty on women. This is a male caller.
PINSKY: Stacey, you want to address that?
FAIRRINGTON: I do. Well, you know, I think in that interview that Jodi did where she said if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty. I think she`s basically telling the jury, if you think I`m guilty, I`m begging you to give the death penalty. And I think as a juror, I think that would actually help me to give it to her. It`s something she`s asking for.
FAIRRINGTON: I believe she probably thinks she deserves it.
BLOOM: Drew, you don`t think that`s like a reverse psychology?
BLOOM: I want it and therefore --
PINSKY: Right. Way too manipulative to be actually asking for --
WICK: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am? Katie.
WICK: Dr. Drew, I wanted to mention something to you, though. Last week, Jodi said during her testimony she said i, in essence, inadvertently, she said I don`t think it`s fair for anybody to take anybody`s life. And I thought hmm, was that kind of an indirect message to the jury.
PINSKY: Oh, absolutely.
WICK: -- if you look at them when she said this.
PINSKY: Absolutely. A 100 percent. I completely agree with you. And yet, she is the one that took Travis` life. It`s so --
PINSKY: Really quickly. Pat in Pennsylvania, five us your thoughts.
PAT, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. When they find her guilty, because there`s no if to it as far as I`m concerned.
WICK: There`s always an if.
PAT: I don`t think so. Not this time.
PINSKY: Casey Anthony shocked us all, but go ahead, Pat. What do you got?
PAT: Yes. Well, the thing is, Travis had no choice, had no second chance. And Jodi has had four and a half years to tell the truth and still hasn`t gotten to it.
PINSKY: Yes. You`re right. You`re right.
PAT: Don`t you agree?
PINSKY: Well, it`s not in her personal structure to really take on responsibility and talk about the truth.
BLOOM: And she`s not going to do it now while she`s on trial either.
PINSKY: That`s right. That`s right. She`s fighting for her life now. But ladies, this is interesting. I think the one thing I keep hearing over and over again from people out in the world, is, how is this possible? How could someone be like that? How could they think -- how could they lie like that? How could this kind of incredible slaughter come out of a little girl like this?
What is it about this flipping and flopping? That`s what I want you, guys, to keep your eye on the next couple of days as we get back into court, OK?
WICK: You betcha. Thank you so much. And I just want to mention, Dr. Drew, as I could real fast, in the courtroom, remember the photos of Travis` body? It`s a lot different in the courtroom than it is on the TV. And that`s going to be in the mind, I think.
PINSKY: We`ll look at those tomorrow. And not only that, I want to show more because it just tells the story. We`ll put it online what we can out there, because it`s an important part of this story. Be right back after this.
PINSKY: A jury found a New York City police officer guilty of conspiracy to kidnap women, cook them, eat them. Gilberto -- I don`t know how to pronounce his last name -- Valle, I guess, admits that he has a cannibalism fetish but insisted he never intended and never did eat any one. The social media to drum up and talk about and fantasize about victims, this man apparently has trouble.
Well, so the court would say he may be someone who has the potential to do something awful. What do you think?
BLOOM: Yes. Legally, this is a real cutting edge case, because this is a guy who was on fetish chat rooms talking about how he wanted to cook women, kill them, cook them, eat them in gory detail but never harmed any one.
PINSKY: Never in his career and his life.
PINSKY: So, the question is, is this a violation of his First Amendment right?
PINSKY: That he should have the ability to talk about --
BLOOM: The defense was he was just letting off steam. He was on these fetish chat rooms. He didn`t really mean it. And you know, my question is, I mean, look, if he did this. I`m glad they caught him before he did anything.
PINSKY: Well, that`s for sure. That`s --
BLOOM: -- until there was one step, you know, bug the apartment of the woman he was going after or something.
PINSKY: I`m with you.
Ladies and gentlemen, tomorrow, we will pick up with the Jodi Arias case, big day in court tomorrow. Also, for the rest of the Jodi Arias trial, HLN after dark, a nighttime look at all that happened during the day in the Jodi Arias trial. It is 10:00 eastern time, Monday through Thursday. We`re going to take a good look at how this is possible, how could this girl have done this. "Nancy Grace" begins right now.