CNN CNN


 

Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

Smoke Could Come Any Moment; Waiting for New Pope To Appear

Aired March 13, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: More broadly, I certainly think he would be seen as a reformer in the sense that he profiles as a man of deep personal integrity. He is also an outsider to the environment of the Vatican. A man with a great deal of nuts and bolts experience of running the church in a major complex archdiocese in Buenos Aires. So I think he is the type of man who would be -- who would strike a number of his brother cardinals as a plausible bet to lead the reform of the Vatican bureaucracy that so many of them seem to be clamoring for.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It is very interesting to watch, just this very simple chimney set against the backdrop, the glories of St. Peter's Basilica and St. Peter's Square. And when you see side by side the images on our screen of the chimney, but also some of the other images that we're seeing tonight, I mean, there could not be a more glorious sight and a setting for this monumental moment.

Tens of thousands of people right now are in St. Peter's Square. We don't have an accurate number from officials, from police. Believed to be about 40,000 here last night. It's raining now and raining and has been for the last several hours, which it wasn't raining as much last night. So it's not clear exactly how many. But certainly many, many thousands of people have gathered here and are eagerly awaiting and many of them stayed (ph) for hours now.

ALLEN: Oh, that's right. I mean some of them have been camped out virtually all day, except for a break over lunch. And, of course, as we were talking earlier, Anderson, what will happen is, if the smoke we are expecting any minute turns out to be white, then immediately thousands of other people from around Rome, tens of thousands, will begin rushing to St. Peter's Square and swell that crowd. To be there for that historic moment when the famous words, "habemus papam," "we have a pope," are proclaimed.

COOPER: It's now just a little bit past 7:00 in the evening here in Rome. About 2:00 in the afternoon in the East Coast of the United States. And again, you really -- you look at some of these images of the crowd, a sea of umbrellas because of this driving rain. Not surprising this time of the year, but still very uncomfortable for a lot of the people in the square.

But there really is a sense of joyousness and excitement. And we talked about this before. But in past years -- you know, eight years ago, obviously, there's always been the death of the preceding pope. So there was a funeral. There was a sadness preceding this election. This time around, you don't have a death. You have a retirement. Pope Benedict is still alive. And so there is much more of a -- kind of a joyful atmosphere, I think.

ALLEN: Yes, that's right. Now, of course, as large as the crowd in the square here was last night, Anderson, you were here eight years ago. You remember that massive tidal wave of humanity that whooshed through Rome in the immediate aftermath of John Paul's death. I mean the city estimates somewhere between 5 million and 10 million people came to the city in those days. And you're right, there was a very funereal atmosphere. It was quiet, it was reverent, it was somber, because these people believed the church just lost a great pope and a great man. This time there is no equivalent outpouring of grief because, of course, Benedict XVI isn't dead.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: But there is an urgency. Wouldn't you say that? There's an excitement. Anderson's been walking around. You, of course, know the city very well. Being around the people here today, they want to know who the pope is. There's the spectacle of it. There's the pageantry of it. But there is also an expectation and an urgency here. This is a moment, as we're saying on the screen, smoke could come any moment. That's true. We're just finishing up what should be the tallying of the last vote of the day here, waiting for the smoke. But this is a moment that could be a positive or negative moment for the church, which is a little unusual.

ALLEN: Well, sure. I mean, listen, any papal transition creates a sense of drama. But particularly when a pope has voluntarily chosen to step aside saying, given the limits I face, I'm not the right man to lead the church forward, it is an indirect way of saying, there are some very serious business that needs to be attended to and someone else --

CUOMO: Right. But usually we have to decipher, we have to kind of divine from people like you. What kind of people will this be? You know, what will they be about? Well, let's look at their past and their very sort of (INAUDIBLE) when they speak and they kind of just say things implicitly. This time it has to be more, don't you agree?

ALLEN: Well, I certainly think that the world is expecting something dramatic from the next man to step out on that balcony above St. Peter's Square. And not nearly, although that certainly -- that drama certainly includes a clear signal that he intends to be a reformer on the child sexual abuse scandal, that he intends to be a reformer in terms of financial transparency, and those sorts of business management issues, but I also think there's a deeper hunger underneath that. People want someone who can inspire them, who can summon the best out of them.

CUOMO: They go together this time, don't they?

ALLEN: They do, of course.

CUOMO: This -- because we keep on separating evangelism and then also having the accountability, but they seem to dove tail at this particular moment in history for the Catholic Church because the enthusiasm for the church has been injured in so many different places because of the perception of the failure of leadership of the church to respond to the worst of crimes, crimes against children. So the ability to evangelize, the messenger's only going to be as effective as the message. And if the message does not include reform on that level, what good can it be, John?

ALLEN: Well, I think, Chris, you're absolutely right. I mean I've said of Benedict XVI, that he was a world class teacher, but, unfortunately, he sometimes found his classroom empty because the schoolhouse was burning down because of various crises that erupted on his watch. Some of them that crashed in on him from the outside, some of them, frankly, self-inflicted. So you're quite right. I mean if you want to teach the world, you have to be perceived as walking your own talk. And I think that's the challenge, in many ways, facing the next man to step out on that balcony and try to lead the 1.2 billion Catholics around the world.

COOPER: We had been told earlier in the day that they thought the conclave would be concluding sometime around 7:00, early in the 7:00 hour. So we really should be anticipating at any moment seeing this smoke. And, again, the view from a lot of the people in St. Peter's Square, they're actually -- now that there's darkness, they can't even see the chimney. They're actually watching -- and you can see in some of the live shots, on large video monitors there's like people --

CUOMO: Smoke.

COOPER: And there you have it, smoke.

Black or white?

CUOMO: Again, it seems to look a little lighter than last time, but still, I have to say, kind of dark, kind of light. It's the lightest smoke we've seen. Fair point?

COOPER: It is.

ALLEN: I think, Chris, that is a fair point. It's the lightest smoke we've seen. But as we've been reminding people throughout the day --

CUOMO: They are excited, the crowd. They are excited in a way they were not last night. They are excited in a way they were not this morning.

COOPER: That looks like white smoke.

ALLEN: It certainly seems to be turning progressively more white as it issues from the chimney.

COOPER: We have been told also that the bells of St. Peter will ring. But last time that took some four or five minutes before -- for confirmation.

ALLEN: That's right. There was some confusion about who could issue the order to turn on the bells the last time. CUOMO: Well, we're going to be completely transparent about it. We don't know. And the reason we don't know is because this smoke can be historically tricky. We do know this, it is lighter than it has been so far in this conclave. The bell is ringing here in Rome. The campanone, the big ring. That means one thing, John Allen. What does it mean? It means --

ALLEN: "Habemus papam," Chris, "we have a pope."

CUOMO: "Habemus papam." "We have a pope."

COOPER: Let's listen in.

An extraordinary moment for the tens of thousands of people who are in St. Peter's Square. They can now tell their children and their grandchildren they were there when the new pope was elected.

CUOMO: And 1.2 billion people around the world, their hearts just skipped a beat. They all now look to one man for their future as believers in the Catholic Church. The cardinals now believe that they know who God wants to lead them.

COOPER: John Allen, what is happening now that we know by tradition?

ALLEN: Well, Anderson, let's start with what's already happened. That in the very moment in which whoever has been elected pope of the Catholic Church crossed that two-thirds threshold, he was asked two questions, two fateful questions. One, do you accept your election as supreme pontiff? And obviously his answer to that question was yes. Secondly, he was asked by which name he will be known. Now, of course, the cardinals in the Sistine Chapel have the answer and soon we will too because what is happening in the interim, the new pope is being led to a room near the Sistine Chapel called the "Room of Tears," where he's being vested in those white vestments that signify the papal walk.

CUOMO: So, John, tell us why it's called that.

ALLEN: Well, it's called the "Room of Tears" precisely because, can you imagine a more fateful moment in a human beings life than the realization that you are now going to be looked upon by 1.2 billion people on the planet as the vicar of Christ on earth, as their successor of St. Peter, as their spiritual father, not just leader, Chris, but their spiritual father. That, of course, is what the word "pope" means. Papa. It means father. And so, obviously, he's given some time to compose himself.

Then, he will return, now vested as the pope, to the Sistine Chapel, where each of the cardinals individually will process up and pledge their loyalty and support to the pope.

Then the -- what's called the protodeacon, that is the senior cardinal in the order of deacon, who is a French cardinal by the name of Jean-Louis Tauran, assuming he is not the one himself who has been elected pope, will step out on to that central balcony overlooking St. Peter's Square and make the famous "habemus papam" announcement, saying, I bring you no news of great joy. We have a pope. He will then give us the name of the man who has been elected. And that, of course, obviously, Chris and Anderson, is the moment all of us are waiting for to see which individual out of that College of Cardinals has been chosen as the new leader of the world's largest and best organized religious institution.

CUOMO: And remind us, we had a pope before we saw the smoke, right?

ALLEN: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We've had a pope since that moment when one man got more than two-thirds of the vote and he was asked, does he accept. Under the laws of the Catholic Church, from the moment he says, "I accept," he professes what the law describes as full supreme and universal authority. In other words, Chris, he's the pope from that moment forward.

CUOMO: And that's when they begin the process of burning the ballots.

ALLEN: Yes, that's right. After he accepts and he gives the cardinal his name, then the doors to the Sistine Chapel will be opened, or have been opened by this stage. Those helpers who have been waiting outside the chapel are then brought in. Some of them help the pope get vested. Others, of course, burn the ballots and produce the white smoke that brings this incredible, dramatic news to the world.

CUOMO: Haven't had a fifth ballot pope in over 100 years, right, since they started the smoke?

ALLEN: And we've got one tonight.

COOPER: You'll want to stay tuned for the next 45 minutes to an hour, certainly, because within that time frame, we will see for first time who the new pope is, what his name is, both his old name and the name he takes on as pope. And I can tell you right now, the tens of thousands of people in that square, many of them are calling up their friends and their family. Soon there will be tens of thousands more people heading to that square. I think I'm actually going to go down, head toward the square right now and I'll leave our coverage in your hands. An extraordinary moment both of faith and of history are happening right now.

CUOMO: All right, so we'll talk to you when you get over there.

Right now I know Miguel Marquez is in St. Peter's Square. He's experienced this moment on the ground.

Miguel, what's it like?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Well, you know, it's freezing and its miserable, but it's electric and exciting all at the same time. The bells, we saw the white smoke and then the big bells started to ring. There was just a massive tidal wave of sound that started from right near the basilica and then came back toward us. I'm here with some folks who came in for the conclave. This is Erin.

How are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Erin (INAUDIBLE) of the Women's Ordination Conference. And I have Kate and Merriam with me from buddingpriest.org (ph).

MARQUEZ: And what is it like to be here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a wild experience, actually, waiting for the pope. We all here support the inclusion of women in the Catholic Church. We --

MARQUEZ: You have your -- I should point out, you have your ordained women badges on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

MARQUEZ: How excited are you to be here? How big a moment for the Catholic Church is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I've been a Catholic my -- since the moment I was born and, you know, there's something exciting about seeing the white smoke in person. This is the first time. So our hope and prayer is it's going to be someone that welcomes the inclusion of women in the Catholic Church, someone who opens more roles up to women in the Catholic Church.

MARQUEZ: OK. What are you -- so what are your feeling? You guys are here from D.C., yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a little bit worried, actually. That's a quick election. I don't think that includes women. And so just -- we're waiting to see who it is.

MARQUEZ: And why so nervous?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're very nervous because we presume that a quick vote means that it's going to be someone that is well known within the curiam (ph). And the men, the cardinals that are very well known and established in Rome in the curiam are not very friendly towards women and they're more traditionalists. So we are a little bit nervous right now, waiting to see who emerges on that balcony.

MARQUEZ: Well, we will all wait together. A very, very exciting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) soon. We'll know soon. They should come out. While we've been here, we've been hosting pink smoke vigils to raise awareness on women's inclusion. We've held two here in Rome. And also there have been 10 in the United States, where we've been bringing awareness by raising pink smoke while, you know, while we see the white smoke now.

MARQUEZ: We have heard those across the U.S. and around the world certainly that people do want and hope for a more open, transparent, liberal, progressive church. I mean do you -- you seem to feel because this smoke came so quickly, everybody was expecting tomorrow, perhaps the next round of voting, your feeling waiting for that -- for those curtains up there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll know -- we'll know as soon as that person comes out. I believe in miracles. So, you never know. But, you know, we've been told if it's a fast election, it will probably be someone more conservative and not in line with reform, but that's something the church desperately needs.

MARQUEZ: Was there anyone that you liked? Any one cardinal?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, there are a couple of cardinals that would be better for a more open and loving and inclusive church. We weren't very hopeful that they stood any chance, though.

MARQUEZ: OK. Thank you very much. Good luck.

Chris, I'll send it back to you. An amazing moment.

CUOMO: All right, Miguel. It is an amazing moment. Habemus papam. Keep working that crowd. Let us know what you find there. We'll come back to you.

Joined here, of course, by John Allen, senior Vatican analyst, and Father Edward Beck, CNN contributor, pasionist (ph) priest. The big question, who is the new pope? The 266th pope of the Catholic Church? An interesting perspective we got there from those young women in the audience. They were hoping that it would have gone a little bit longer because they believe that would have meant there was a better chance it was an outsider. So we witness (ph) in that. There's a little bit of jaundice towards the inside, the coria (ph). But this being somewhat unprecedented. We believe it to be a fifth ballot pope. Unusual, kind of between short and long. What does it mean about who it could be, John?

ALLEN: Well, I mean, let me tell you now that this may be a moment, 45 minutes from now, we look back upon with some embarrassment. If we go too far down the road trying to read the tea leaves --

CUOMO: Sure.

ALLEN: Or in this case to use the appropriate metaphor, the smoke signals. But, I mean, the traditional logic here would be that if they wrap up the conclave within the first full day and the evening that proceeded, so, in other words, we're really talking a day and a half, that typically that means that one of the early front-runners was able to put together sufficient support to cross that two-thirds threshold and just remind our audience who some of those early front-runners were. We were talking about figures such as Cardinal Angelo Scola of Milan, Italy. Cardinal Marc Ouellet, Canadian, who currently runs the Vatican's Congregation of Bishops.

CUOMO: Odilo Scherer, archbishop --

ALLEN: Cardinal Scherer from Sal Palo in Brazil. That's right. But we should say, of course, that right now there are only 115 people who actually have the answer to the question that is on the front of all of our brains. We will find out soon enough, Chris.

CUOMO: Right. So Father Beck, as a priest, when you see this, the beautiful news for you as a believer, you have a new pope, you have a new father. This point in the conclave, what does it make you think about who your next leader, what type of person they'll be?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, obviously, a wonderful, historical moment to be a part of the excitement to be here. I'm getting tweets and e-mails already from people, who is it, who is it? And I'm trying to respond tin my own way.

What I'd like to go out on a limb and say is, Cardinal Scola has been listed as a front-runner. They are calling him the reformer candidate. I don't see it that way. I see him as a traditional candidate. This would be a return to an Italian papacy, which we haven't had in 45 years. This is a Cardinal Ratzinger intellectual theologian, conservative theologian. And so, for me, that says a return to tradition. Traditional Catholicism. For me, the reformer pope would be, who they're calling the traditionalist, Cardinal O'Malley. This is someone who has reformed the archdiocese of Boston. Franciscans and religious have been reformers of the church. So I'd like to switch those terms around and, if speculation is that Cardinal Scola walks out on the balcony, I think people in America, from our perspective would say, a little bit more of the same old, same old. If, however, what they're calling the traditionalist walks out on the balcony, I think people will say the church is now about reform.

ALLEN: Well, I think that's a really good read, although let's remember that when Cardinal Angelo Rampali (ph) was elected in 1958, people saw that as same old, same old too. And then, of course, he stunned the world by calling second Vatican council and moving the church into the modern age.

BECK: Yes.

ALLEN: So I think what's going to be very important, particularly if it is someone who is seen as kind of a traditional figure, such as a Cardinal Scola, those early days and early months (ph) in that papacy are going to be critically important because people are going to be wanting to see, having now stepped into this role, what we've also grow into the role, and perhaps surprise us all, about where he chooses to go.

BECK: Right.

CUOMO: Let's remind people of what we're waiting for here. We have white smoke. We hear the big bell, campanoni, in Italian. It is ringing. It's been ringing for some time. It rang much more quickly this time than it did in the last conclave. If this is a fifth ballot pope, it is the first time that a fifth ballot has brought us a pope in over 100 years. The next thing we'll see is Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran --

ALLEN: Correct.

CUOMO: He will come to the balcony. He will announce the -- he will be speaking Latin, but you will hear him say the first name of the pope. So it will give us some idea of who it is, if we're good on our names. If it's not one that's too common. Of course, he could be the next pope.

ALLEN: Well, that's precisely the footnote I was just going to deliver. He was one of the 115 cardinals in that Sistine Chapel.

CUOMO: Now what we're seeing here is an amazing scene. The entire area where we are here. People are flooding up the streets, trying to get as close as they can to St. Peter's Square. In that crowd, you see so many different colors and faces and flags from all over the world. People are all shouting and most of them in different languages from one another.

Jim Bittermann is close to the Sistine Chapel.

Jim, can you hear us?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, indeed, I can. And, in fact, it's quite a scene out here. I'm right on the (INAUDIBLE), which is the main street that leads up to St. Peter's Square. And people are still, at this hour, still running towards the square because they want to be there when the pope steps out on the balcony.

It's quite a scene. The bells were going off a minute ago and that seemed to be just pulling people in. I should say that all afternoon long, despite a really freezing rain here, thousands of people have been packing into the square and basically no one has been leaving. The people that came here, I think, have just decided that they were going to stay it out. And those who've waited, in fact, are getting paid off now because the white smoke just brought a roar from this crowd. And as I speak, more and more people are coming in.

Chris.

CUOMO: And let me ask you, Jim, we've been talking about how much diversity is represented here. What do you see around you? How many different flags and types of nationalities and languages, how diverse is it to you?

BITTERMANN: Well, flags we're not seeing because it's raining and people are holding umbrellas rather than flags. But I can tell you, from nationalities, everything under the sun, everybody from around the world I see. You know, you see just all sorts of diverse groups. You see a lot of religious folks are here, different orders of nuns and priests and they've been packing in all afternoon long. And then just regular tourists. We've seen a lot of folks who are just in town who decided they better get over here for this historic moment. And there are more people -- just as I'm speaking here, all of a sudden there's been a surge of people running in. I suspect some of these are probably Romans too because they want to be here for this moment. But it's a combination. It's just a real mix.

CUOMO: All right, Jim, thank you. We'll be back to you in a little bit.

Behind us we watched people flooding up the roads, translated the road of constellation. And certainly this is great constellation for the population here because they have what they have wanted to see, the new pope. Of course, we're living history right now with the Catholic Church because this is the first time in the history, certainly its modern history, where there are two living popes. Pope Benedict, obviously now pope emeritus, and the new yet unknown to us pope. And to remind, John, right now, we're waiting, but there's plenty of activity inside. What is going on inside?

ALLEN: Well, what's going on at the moment, and we should remind people, that from the white smoke to the habemus papam announcement, that is the revelation of the new pope's name, we can be talking about a half hour, 40 minutes. So it's not going to happen instantaneously. What is happening in the meantime, of course, is that the new pope, which perhaps has already happened, has been vested with the white vestments that signify the papal office.

CUOMO: They have three different sizes.

ALLEN: That's right. And basically for a small guy, a medium sized guy and what we might call the well nourished pope. That's also ready to go.

CUOMO: But tell us, the last time, with Pope Benedict, what happened?

ALLEN: Well, Pope Benedict had the medium sized outfit. But it was a chilly night that night in Rome and so he had the black sweater on that he had worn into the conclave under the white vestment. So when he came out to do his blessing, extending his arms, the photographers caught the black sleeves under the white robe. And when they issued the official photo of that night, they airbrushed the black sleeves out.

BECK: And, John, I read a report that it actually did not fit him and they put him in a regular white (INAUDIBLE) and that Gamareliz (ph) was very embarrassed by the fact that none of the three fit him for some reason.

ALLEN: Yes, that's -- that is absolutely right. They actually had to make some adjusts on the fly. And because they weren't coming together and they were anxious, obviously, to get him out on the balcony, they brought the (INAUDIBLE) out and sort of dressed him up in it. Which is one of the reasons that he had that sweater on underneath it. CUOMO: So let's reset the scene here. We're going to show you the white smoke as it came, this first signal of this new pope there. We're looking at a live picture right now. We want to show you the smoke when it came out. And as we do that, there it is. That's when the smoke came out. It was another beautiful illustration of the confusion of this. The simple theater of it all. Was it white? Was it not? And as it got lighter and the crowd went wild, we got our confirmation from il campanone, the big bell. So we believe habemus papam, we have a pope.

Anderson Cooper has made his way to the square.

Anderson, do you hear us?

COOPER: I do. And it's really an extraordinary thing to actually be here in St. Peter's Square. Obviously the crowds are growing really by the second. People are literally running up the block to try to get a good vantage point where they will be able to see the pope as he comes out on the balcony for first time. There is, as I said, a real sense of excitement. The rain has largely stopped. So people are gathering as quickly as possible. We're going to try to talk to some people. But they're quickly sort of cordoning off areas because they do anticipate a real swell in the number of people here.

Last night there were about -- estimated to be about some 40,000 people here. There's no telling how many people are here at this point. But with the rain stopping, and the fact that there has been white smoke, people from all over this city are trying to get to this destination because they want to be here, Chris, when the pope emerges for the first time. And what a moment that will be.

CUOMO: (INAUDIBLE) this chimney with great anticipation. So have they. Are you hearing anything from them about who they think it will be or what they want this to be about? Are you picking anything up yet?

COOPER: You know, it's interesting. When the first -- when the white smoke first occurred, there was cheers, there was excitement. There's now kind of more of a sense of anticipation. People waiting. I think, you know, many people, as you know, you've been here now for many days, many people you talk to, they all have their favorites. They all have somebody that they would like to see. Whether they actually know that cardinal or not, whether it's just somebody that they've read about, they generally, you know, have somebody that they hope.

But at this point, no one is really -- I haven't heard too many people trying to guess or, you know, and feeling pretty secure in knowing who it is. I think it's anybody's guess at this point. The fact that this was the fifth vote, you know, you could read that in a multitude of different ways. And there's certainly a lot of discussion here going on about who it might be, what this might mean for the church moving forward. But, again, all eyes are on that little balcony just a few blocks away.

CUOMO: All right, Anderson, I'll let you go report it out there. Please let us know when you have something -- now -- yes?

COOPER: Actually, Chris, Chris, Chris, let me just bring in some -- hey, how are you? How's it going? Let me give you a mic here. What's your name?

JACOB RAZNICK (ph): Jacob Raznick.

COOPER: Jacob.

And what's your name?

LINCOLN: Lincoln.

COOPER: Lincoln.

So where you guys from?

RAZNICK: I'm from New York. Upstate New York.

COOPER: And you?

LINCOLN: Connecticut.

COOPER: And what are you doing here?

RAZNICK: Well, we're studying abroad and obviously it's the pope election. You've got to come be in St. Peter's Square.

COOPER: I see you're wearing American flags, so you wanted to represent. How long have you been here in the square?

RAZNICK: Probably since 4:00.

COOPER: 4:00.

RAZNICK: Yes.

COOPER: Why did you want to be here?

RAZNICK: It's my (INAUDIBLE). It's a once in a lifetime thing for us, I mean, to be actually in Rome, studying, and then happen to have a new pope at the same time is pretty amazing.

COOPER: Do you have a favorite? Do you have somebody who you think it may be, hope it may be?

LINCOLN: O'Malley.

COOPER: You'd like to see Cardinal O'Malley?

LINCOLN: Yes. Yes. Definitely.

COOPER: Why? What about him?

LINCOLN: He's from Boston, which is close to me. And, you know, I think that he would -- he's the best one that could bring a transition for the Catholic Church to, you know, the modern times.

COOPER: You want to see some sort of change, some sort of modernization?

LINCOLN: Yes. Yes. I think that right now the church needs to transition and integrate itself into the modern world better, that way it will be easier for, you know, for it to continue.

COOPER: Did you ever anticipate that you would be here to witness something like this?

RAZNICK: Never in a million years would I have thought I'd been here for a new pope and to be actually in Rome for this experience, it's unreal.

COOPER: Yes. What has it been like? I mean what has the atmosphere been like over the last couple of hours? Because, I mean, you guys were here. It's been pouring rain.

RAZNICK: Yes. Just to see the amount of people that have come in over the hours, just to see such a monumental thing in the world is pretty amazing.

(CROSS TALK)

RAZNICK: And to see how people are reacting to it now, knowing that there's white smoke, it's just -- it's a really nice feeling to hear.