Return to Transcripts main page
Jodi`s "Fog" Explained
Aired March 14, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, and now, the star of her very won life or death drama -- Jodi Arias and her brain.
Her memory sliced.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did I get the feeling she wasn`t being forthcoming? I had suspicions that that was the case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I felt that she was a woman with a low self esteem, and pretty much of a pacifist.
PINSKY: And defended.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stress occurs in situations that we call fight or flight.
PINSKY: Is the fog finally lifting? Can defense experts ride to the rescue? Is there yet another act for Jodi Arias?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host for this week, Lisa Bloom.
Lisa, those final shots we saw of Jodi Arias there, I feel like she was a junior high school kid getting ready to go on a classroom with her books.
LISA BLOOM, CO-HOST: She`s a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, isn`t she? Compare that to the platinum blonde, the provocative outfit. Now, she`s mousey with little stringy bangs. Give me a break.
PINSKY: Now, she`s student.
Joined by attorney Brian --
BLOOM: Student of what?
PINSKY: Speaking of student of what, I want to get into what that expert witness talked about. I`m going to straighten this all out.
Attorney Brian Claypool joins me and Karen Mills-Francis, TV`s "Judge Karen" and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
But, first, in case the jury didn`t believe Jodi`s claims of abuse and wasn`t buying into the fog, the defense trotted out their PTSD guy who met Jodi a dozen times over three years. The prosecution didn`t want him on the stand.
Take a look at this.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: We discussed all of his notes, and all of his findings. Today, it`s a new story. The first side is a cross section of the brain.
Mr. Samuels is a psychologist, not a psychiatrist or a medical doctor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the state says he has no objection to Dr. Samuels testifying but yet he object to the PowerPoint, what he`s saying is he objects to his testimony all together. My guess is because he`s actually helpful for Miss Arias.
What these slides do, assist the jury in understanding his expertise. Nothing is new.
MARTINEZ: He can`t talk about what a premeditated crime is. He can`t talk what a non-premeditated crime is or crime of passion. That`s something for the jury to decide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re talking about the brain, what happens to certain areas of the brain when it`s under high stress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I worked with clients of theirs, officers, who are involved in shooting incidents and who was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you record what you`re saying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I never record, and the reason for that is very clear. People are very reluctant to get their words recorded. That was the story and I wanted to see if it would change at all, which it did not. And so Ms. Bermie (ph) and I went to her and explained the importance of --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, let me stop you there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It`s entirely possible and highly likely that someone will not be able to recall anything about a situation or if they do, it would be foggy or bits and pieces.
PINSKY: Beth Karas covering the trial for "In Session." There`s that fog again, Beth. And the bits and pieces didn`t seem to be convenient for old Jodi, so the fog moved in. What in your opinion, Beth, was the most important development today?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: OK. Well, his diagnosis, PTSD. But what`s really important is what he didn`t say. He did not say that the PTSD is caused by her killing Travis Alexander. That`s the issue the judge is going to talk about tomorrow.
See, the judge already said you`re not allowed to say this was not premeditated. That`s the jury`s decision. What he wants to do and the judge is going to hear testimony out of the jury`s presence tomorrow, is define homicide. He`s going to define instrumental homicide versus expressive or reactive homicide.
And he told Juan Martinez, instrumental is really another way of saying premeditated. If this was an instrumental homicide, she would not have this fog, amnesia because it wouldn`t have been stressful, she plotted it.
But if it was an expressive or reactive, she`s stabbing him all these times, it was emotional, stressful. She has this amnesia. He`s basically telling the jury that`s obviously what it is. It`s not premeditated. And I don`t think the judge rule that way.
PINSKY: I got to say, this kind of stuff gets very foggy when you talk about it. And I`m sure our viewers are fogging up and I`m sure the jurors fog up.
And I wonder, Beth, if the jurors get to ask questions of the experts in Arizona?
KARAS: Yes, they can ask questions of all the witnesses, so yes.
PINSKY: All right. Now, Judge Karen, I want to get your take on this. I haven`t talked to you in a while about Jodi`s testimony. What did you think of the expert on the stand and the strategy the defense is following?
JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, TV`S "JUDGE KAREN": Well, you know, the conventional wisdom is that -- I used to be a criminal defense attorney, I was a criminal defense attorney for 13 years -- is that you put your client on last. That`s the last witness you put on. And the reason why you do that is because you want to clean up anything that`s not clear and you want to give some drama to the end where the jury gets to feel your client.
I think the reason why this guy flipped is because the cleanup needs to be done about Jodi`s testimony. So they brought in this doctor.
PINSKY: Well, Karen, maybe --
MILLS-FRANCIS: Wait, wait. He got his degree when I was in elementary school.
MILLS-FRANCIS: And did all his research when I was in elementary school --
MILLS-FRANCIS: -- who in 1,011 days saw this lady 12 times. This is the best they could do? They couldn`t bring in somebody who`s like, you know, ran a battery of tests over the last three years, saw her once a week or once a month. This man saw this lady 12 times.
I feel sorry for the defense.
PINSKY: Brian, what should the prosecution do with Dr. Samuels or Mr./Dr. Samuels on cross examination?
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, ATTORNEY: I`ll give him the benefit and call him doctor. Expert witnesses, Drew, are only as god as the facts they rely upon. If you have bad facts, you`re going to have bad opinions.
So, Martinez has to get up there and he`s got to say assume hypothetically, Dr. Samuels, that Jodi Arias testified in this trial that she lies to everybody. Assume further that she may have lied to you during those 12 sessions over the three years. Therefore, your opinion is fatally flawed and categorically false. That`s the first question I`d ask.
PINSKY: And, Lisa, I know you were very fascinated by the amnesia question being asked, about having amnesia generated from having a hot shower or cold shower or having sex with somebody -- oops, my amnesia, my memory lost.
BLOOM: Right. Right. This expert witness actually said in a court of law that sex causes memory loss. Dr. Drew, come on, is that possible?
PINSKY: Well, I`ll just say, let me --
BLOOM: I mean, you`re really an expert on human sexuality.
PINSKY: Not only am I expert, I -- I, listen, I guarantee you guys, I want my panel to listen to this -- I guarantee you that psychologist has never seen a case of what`s called transient global amnesia, which is a medical problem, and he was commenting on that. And it`s not as simple as getting hit over the head with a coconut and you`re thinking you`re Ginger when you`re really Maryann. It`s not like that.
And it`s like that memory has vanished. It`s a confusional state and it`s medical and it`s caused by medication. And I`ve seen it a dozen times.
BLOOM: OK. Most of us have amnesia --
PINSKY: He doesn`t now what he`s talking about.
Cheryl, you`re going to back me up on that?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. And I think this is the first time I`ve heard of a doctor saying that someone actually intercoursed someone`s brains out.
BLOOM: Wow. Hot water, cold water. He said that causes amnesia too. I take a hot shower every day.
PINSKY: All right. I forgot what I was talking about. It must me TGA, transient global amnesia. Hit me on the head again to get my memory back, Lisa.
OK. Next, taking a break here. Next up, "The Secret" -- remember the book "The Secret"? It seems to have been Jodi`s bible. And it is one of the most egregious parts of the story. Her thought oriented beliefs, are they working at her favor? Did she wish herself -- think herself into this situation she`s in?
By the way, if gets off, I will start reading "The Secret", just so you know. If she rules herself out of this.
And later, got a feeling about the verdict in this case? So does my gist. We have a woman who calls herself an intuitive. She`s back. She knew Jodi. She knew Travis, and she`s with us tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: "The Secret" is a documentary film that came out in 2006 explaining the law of attraction. So, they`re synonymous. The idea behind the law of attraction is that we live in a vibrational universe and that everything down to the atomic level is vibrating to a certain frequency.
When you have a certain thought, it gets to the emotion and the emotion changes the vibration on a molecular level within your body and that in turn the sex (ph), your environment around you, one of the things they say that can speed up the law of attraction is if you write about something in great detail, you get into the detail, into the feeling of it, into the emotion of it and it speeds up the manifestation process so to speak.
In order to understand why I wouldn`t talk about anything negative, I don`t know if you heard it, it was a philosophy that I had a time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the name of that philosophy?
ARIAS: It`s called the law of attraction. There was a movie made about it called `The Secret." Travis, he was very much into that, which I liked. And so it became more and more a part of my philosophy and my creed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the secret part of the law of attraction?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You chose not to write negative things in your journal because you were concerned that Travis would read it. Is that correct?
ARIAS: That`s correct. I never took any photos specifically to photograph the bruises and finger marks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn`t you document these things?
ARIAS: Something that I wanted to forget, not something I wanted to focus on and remember. It has a lot to do with the law of attraction. And I would never have thought of incriminating Travis.
That`s not in line with "The Secret." "The Secret" being the law of attraction.
That`s what you put out there is what you get back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, Jodi, what you put out there is what you get back.
Time for the behavior bureau. More stunning words have never been uttered I suspect.
My co-host this week, Lisa Bloom. Also joining me, clinical psychologist Ramani Durvasula, forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt and psycho therapist Wendy Walsh.
I think I`m going to start with Wendy.
Wendy, is there any more primitive way of thinking than like a 2-year- old child, if I think something is going to happen, if I wish it to happen, I can make it happen?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: In a way, it`s primitive for sure, Dr. Drew, but it`s also a way that she`s actually making her projections bigger than ever, her fantasy of how this relationship can be with Travis.
So she keeps saying if I don`t see the bad. If I see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, then somehow this will turn into love. This will be the perfect relationship.
PINSKY: But that is that crazy thinking. Do you agree with me, Ramani, that again this whole notion -- by the way, let me say it again, if she gets off for some reason, I will become an advocate --
PINSKY: A disciple. I will begin wishing everything into the world, including murderers, get off.
But, by the way, go ahead, Ramani.
RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, this is all about Jodi feeling totally out of control, right? When you`re in love, you feel out of control. I don`t think she liked that. So, she felt like, well, if I wish four a pony, I`ll get a pony. If I wish for Travis, I`ll get Travis.
It let her feel in control. Again, when you`re in love, you feel like you`re on a roller coaster. I don`t think she always loved this roller coaster. So all this magicy secrety stuff helped her feel like she had control over this crazy situation.
PINSKY: And damn when things didn`t go her way.
Cheryl, your opinion?
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, when we talked about how somebody doesn`t have a core inside and doesn`t know who they are, they`re in search of things to model after to guide them. And this seems to be a woman who really was looking for a way of thinking, a philosophy of life that was a secret or it was Mormonism or something or that Travis wanted to train her in. But she was looking for --
PINSKY: Cheryl, hold on a second, hang on a second.
Yes, thank you for putting the panel back up there again, because you guys, the three of you, were shaking your heads vigorously, you agree completely with Cheryl.
So please finish, Cheryl.
PINSKY: Then I`ll give each of you a chance to finish this up.
ARUTT: I think that her fascination with "The Secret" is indicative of a woman without a core in search of a belief system so she could know who she was.
PINSKY: OK. Wendy? You go along with that?
WALSH: Yes. I think you and I have talked about this before, Dr. Drew, is that both she and Travis had some type of chaotic interiors and they were searching outside themselves in the environment for rules and boundaries. Some kind of structure that would help them.
PINSKY: That`s sort of her going to the church, that`s her mature self stepping in, by the way, Wendy.
PINSKY: Ramani, you`re saying yes to that?
DURVASULA: Little lost child. When I think of Jodi Arias, it`s a little lost child.
PINSKY: Well, that makes it too pathetic.
BLOOM: Oh, boo-hoo.
DURVASULA: But it is pathetic. Drew, it`s pathetic. That`s what this is.
PINSKY: Lisa --
BLOOM: It`s worst in pathetic, though. I mean, this is even assuming she really believes in "The Secret" stuff. I think is part of her lie to explain why there`s nothing negative in her journal.
PINSKY: See, that`s why I love having an attorney on the panel. Take us right into the basement.
BLOOM: All the negative stuff she says about Travis at the trials conveniently isn`t in the journal, she`s got to explain that.
PINSKY: Well, I didn`t want to wish bad things on him. If I put bad things on him, I took bad pictures of him, bad things would happen.
BLOOM: Or the second alternative, it didn`t happen.
PINSKY: Ramani -- if you guys would put that back up there I would appreciate it.
You were -- yes, so the gentleman that was our expert witness today, did you feel that he had the proper demeanor to deliver the goods to this jury?
DURVASULA: No. I mean, again, there is so much data here and everything. And I felt like he was too tentative. I mean, he did not have the force of data and opinion behind him.
When you are dealing with something like this, you better be able to deliver the goods and deliver them in a convincing way. I mean, he was hemming and hawing like an old school professor. And that`s not going to work.
BLOOM: Maybe he had amnesia.
PINSKY: Real quickly, I don`t want to get too bogged down on the technical stuff. But he talked about acute stress reaction, where people sometimes have trouble organizing memories. He had post traumatic stress disorder where she can`t be diagnosed until weeks or months down the line which he claims Jodi has, but wouldn`t make her a memory problem in the event.
And, by the way, when adults are in traumatic situations, I challenge everyone at home to think about this -- if you`ve been through a traumatic event, a car accident or something, you can remember every little detail. As an adult it gets emblazoned in your memory. And if your back in something that even looks like the same environment or the same spell, it triggers you flashing back to those events. It`s not the way he describes it.
The behavior bureau stays with me. We`re going to have some more to say about amnesia and sex and what did you call it, Cheryl, intercoursing someone`s memory out? I`m not as poetic as you were.
Later on, Jodi`s life may in fact hang in the balance here. So, we`ll give the defense witness a grade. I`ll be grading him with my panel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Since I`ve been in custody (ph), it`s almost like there`s been a proverbial duct tape over my mouth. And I haven`t been able to say anything. There are many sides to this story. And I just don`t feel like mine has been represented.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, there do seem to be many sides to the story, but so far, they`re all lies. Back with the behavior bureau and my co-host Lisa Bloom. That was vintage Jodi Arias we`re just looking at. An interview she gave to an Arizona TV station 2008.
Talking about the story Jodi`s now going with or at least her expert is going with. They trotted out a PTSD guy. So far, he`s talking about the brain and PTSD and memory formation.
But the thing that caught our attention, and Lisa`s especially today, was a bit of tape I want to air right now. Let`s get that going because this is the part that he was talking about positive cause of transient global amnesia, which I will say again is a medical disorder, not a psychological problem and not a reaction to trauma. It`s usually caused by medical problems -- not hot water, not cold water, not trauma, not sex.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the general population, somewhere, different studies come up with different numbers. So, between three and eight people per 100,000 people each year experience transient global amnesia.
The amazing thing is that here are the things that can cause that. Sudden immersion in cold or hot water, physical exertion, emotional or psychological stress, pain, medical procedures, sexual intercourse. And similar events have been observed in 50 to 90 percent of these documented attacks of transient global amnesia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: As I said, TGA or transient global amnesia is a confusional state. It`s a medical state. It`s not just your memory vanishes.
But, Cheryl, you were so poetic in addressing this last time. I want you to reframe this for us, again, if you would.
ARUTT: Well, my understanding is that he said that she was intercoursing her brains out.
PINSKY: Well, I think she was doing that, actually. I heard the sex tapes, and that`s, in fact, what seemed to happen.
BLOOM: But in a bad way, not in a good way.
ARUTT: Yes, exactly, Lisa.
PINSKY: Strange enough, ladies and gentlemen --
BLOOM: I`m with Cheryl, right? Here she is.
I`m with you. Doesn`t make any sense at all.
And Dr. Drew, can I just ask you? I mean, every single one of us has had emotional stress.
BLOOM: They`ve immersed in hot or cold water. Most people had sex, OK?
And how come only three out of 100,000? Does that make any sense to you?
PINSKY: I don`t remember what you just ask me.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s because when you hear about medication causing memory problems, that you read about in "New York Times" and stuff, this is what they`re talking about. And when they`re in their state they`re sort of where am I? What`s going on? And they go to the hospital because they are confused.
Memory is the major problem. They can`t form new memory. They can`t figure out where they are. But it`s a very -- it`s a neurological state. It`s not a psychological state.
ARUTT: And, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
ARUTT: -- do you think if someone were in that state of confusion that they could selectively delete incriminating photos from a digital camera?
PINSKY: No, no.
ARUTT: And plan all these other things?
And, Ramani, you had a very vigorous reaction there. Nor could she remember to put the pug downstairs and block him the doggy door so he doesn`t run upstairs into the blood.
DURVASULA: No, I think some of us may wish we had amnesia after sex, but in her case, she did.
PINSKY: How dare you? I`m insulted.
BLOOM: It depends on the partner.
DURVASULA: But here`s the thing -- this is soap opera amnesia, right, when it`s perfectly crafted to make the soap opera work.
DURVASULA: That`s what this feels like. This is what I teach. It`s soap opera amnesia. How convenient that you can be so clever and yet forget things. I mean, she`s a storyteller.
PINSKY: That`s right.
DURVASULA: Jodi is a fantastic storyteller.
PINSKY: She`s a liar.
Wendy, put a button on this.
WALSH: Well, I think at this point, if I`m -- and you guys are tuning out to this, so I think the jury`s really tuning out. And I think it`s because this stuff is coming late. We don`t need to hear about little memory loss and confusion and bits and pieces now.
The main show is over. I think most people have made their decisions.
And next, we`ll be giving Jodi`s expert witness, the guy we`ve been talking, we`ll be giving him a report card. And I`m giving one of the grades.
And later, our intuitive Julie Christopher. She`s a friend of Jodi and Travis`. She`s back. What is she feeling about what has been going down in court. There she is. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m here with our live studio jury. Also, join the conversation from home, our virtual jury.
Today`s bold accusation: Juan Martinez is too aggressive. We will go back and forth with the evidence. The experts will join us as well and a verdict will be reached at the end of the show.
Don`t miss it, "HLN AFTER DARK" at the top of the hour right after Dr. Drew.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIE CHRISTOPHER, FRIEND OF JODI AND TRAVIS: I was eating and something happened within my body. I felt a really cold chill. And I just get the chill right now.
And I had no idea. The only thing is, when I do this, when I listen to my body their way, I know there is a message. And I knew it was about Travis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Lisa Bloom. And joining us exclusively is the man who dated Jodi, Abe Abdelhadi. He`s been kind to join us again. He is on the phone. And we have Julie Christopher who calls herself an intuitive. We just saw her in that video. There she is.
Now, Julie has had a very bad feeling about Jodi and her influence on Travis. She knew them both. Now, Julie, I haven`t spoken to you really since this whole testimony has played out. Did you learn anything about Jodi through these past 18 days on the stand?
CHRISTOPHER: Well, Dr. Drew, very interestingly, the Jodi that I knew before the trial, before the murder and through the trial has been the same Jodi, Dr. Drew. And this is very interesting, because it`s almost as if she`s taking pleasure on her own TV show. She`s taking pleasure on this entire passionate sex crime that, in my opinion, intuitively it is a sex crime that finished up into something that`s horrifying.
However, the Jodi here is very calculated. She was like that before. She is like that now, I believe, to pick up on that she is traveling with her body, moving into maybe the jury with her body movements, you know, we pick up on a lot of energy, maybe stimulating the jury and as well as a fake. Again, this is a fake Jodi.
This is someone who has disconnection with her mind and her body, almost as if she was outside of her body experience as the audience would be the jury.
CHRISTOPHER: Yes, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Did you see anything today when you were watching her? I thought there was a very strange appearance, Lisa, you agree with me on this, in her face that was yet another Jodi today where she was not mirroring her attorneys. She was not putting on the risk (ph) for the jury. She was just sort of sitting there almost like a --
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Like checked out, emotionally checked out?
PINSKY: Yes. Did you see that, Julie?
CHRISTOPHER: Yes, sir. And again, this is the Jodi that I knew, because this is someone who is a shell. I describe her as a shell without a core. And a core, in French, mind you, the core means heart.
PINSKY: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
PINSKY: And let`s ask Abe. If he has learned anything since Jodi has been on the stand and we last spoke, anything surprise you, Abe?
VOICE OF ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: She`s a little more snarkier than I remember her being, but that definitely is her personality. and I didn`t know she was a magician who can make her memory disappear. So, that was a neat trick, that you know, she could call herself the great Jodini, I guess, and the craft about the secret.
I`m working on (INAUDIBLE) the obvious -- you`re not going to get a Mercedes because you wish for it. That`s what drove me crazy six years ago. And hearing anybody bring it up in a murder trial is insane.
PINSKY: Well, Abe, that`s so fascinating, because I completely agree with you. I mean, think about the mindset of somebody who has fought herself or whatever she did into a murder and now brings up the very thinking and philosophy that helped her end up where she is.
ABDELHADI: She`s going to make herself wish this away. Like, if she clicks her heels, she can go back, you know, back from the Kansas from Oz. It`s insulting. And today, this Dr. Kill Quack that they had on the stand today should be an insult to doctors everywhere like Janine was offended by the battered woman nonsense.
Any doctor with an M.D., not a Ph.D., have glorified counselor, has got no business prescribing meds much less talking about the brain chemical reaction do-da. The guy was a total (INAUDIBLE).
BLOOM: Would you, as an M.D., do you feel offended --
PINSKY: No. No, I don`t, because my psychological colleague, he has good training and he`s staying in a zone that he actually except for the transient global amnesia, which you saw me react to that.
PINSKY: He`s generally stayed in the zone where he does have professional knowledge. I don`t know how much clinical experience he has with this. But Abe, I`m going to tell you what, you and I, my friend, should she get out of this, we are going -- I live in Pasadena, we`re going to go to the Barnes & Noble in Pasadena where you dated Jodi. We`re going to buy the secret. We`re going to sit there and we`ll read the whole damn thing. OK?
ABDELHADI: And I`ll take you to dinner -- we can commiserate.
PINSKY: That`s too crazy. OK. Karen, you want to weigh in on what Julie is saying here?
JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, TV`S "JUDGE KAREN": You know, I`ve said all along that I thought that the relationship between Jodi and the victim was a very dysfunctional relationship. I`m getting concerned about the legal representation that she`s had. Obviously, this girl likes attention. She`s doing a lot for attention.
Her presentation in this trial has been all about look at me. Look at me. They put on this crackster that they call an expert. They have made a circus of the defense case. And they had to put her on the stand, because self-defense is her defense. Her state of mind is an issue. So, we need to hear from her. But didn`t they train her? Didn`t they go over her testimony with her?
When we look at all of the inconsistencies, all of the conflicts that have come out of her testimony, you wonder, what were her attorneys thinking? And after having put an unprepared defendant on the stand, you bring in an unqualified psychologist to clean up her mess. I think it offends the judicial system.
MILLS-FRANCIS: And I think this jury is offended.
PINSKY: Lisa, you got a comment to that.
BLOOM: Well, it`s tough, you know. I don`t know that her attorneys didn`t try. I put a lot of people on the stand who I prepared for days and days. They`re still going to be who they`re going to be. You know, I`m not a magician as an attorney. So, we don`t know what behind.
PINSKY: Or maybe Jodi insisted on this. Maybe they`re trying to manage her.
BLOOM: That`s right.
BLOOM: And you`ve got terrible fact here. You`ve got a woman who lied repeatedly before this trial even started and that`s going to get, you know, shoved down her throat at the trial. What are you going to do if she insisted on taking the stand? You got to let her.
PINSKY: All right, guys. Julie and Abe, thank you for joining us. Next up, it is report card time. We`re giving out the grades today for the defense witness. I`m going to give him my grade, and we have a panel to grade him as well.
And later, did he win any points, this defense witness, did he win any points with my jurors in the courtroom. Stay with us for that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we sense danger, an automatic protective system begins to occur, which is what`s referred to as the fight or flight state. The body prepares to fend off harm, to protect itself, to survive, most important thing. The presence of the adrenaline begins to shut this area down, because the brain is not interested in remembering what`s going on.
The brain is interested in survival. We don`t start thinking about oh, what a beautiful color my attacker is wearing. We don`t think about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: No, we don`t, but memories are still emblazoned into our memory bank. Time for the report card, trial report card time. Back with me co-host, Lisa Bloom. Handing out the grades for today`s defense expert, Judge Kaern Mills-Francis, psychologist Cheryl Arutt, Attorney Brian Claypool, and Lisa, and me.
Now, Judge Karen, you first, what did you think, and hold the grades off, but what did you think about the witness? You gave us a pretty strong negative in the last segment. Summarize it again for us.
MILLS-FRANCIS: It`s just pretty laughable, the whole defense here. I would like to grade the entire defense team. They have helped to make a circus out of something that`s already out of control and amusing. This is the best that they could do? This trial has gone on all this time. This woman on the stand for 18 days, and they bring in this character to be an expert?
An expert is a person that you are going to respect. This man tells you that you can have amnesia from having sex. Well, there are a lot of men that don`t remember where they were last night when their wife asked them when they came in.
MILLS-FRANCIS: I understand that kind of amnesia, but you know, I mean, it`s just a little bit too much to me. So, yes, I think you can guess what my grade would be.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Cheryl, what do you got?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, whereas medication is the specialized domain of medical doctors, the special thing that we, psychologists, have is psychological testing. And it`s one of the advantages in court is that if you have a forensic psychologist, you can have them do testing with malingering scales and validity scales and hard data where it`s not just a clinical judgment.
PINSKY: Well, hang on, Cheryl. Let`s break that down for people. So, what you`re saying is, there are actually questionnaires that people can take that are extensive that really are like taking a brain scan of your psychology. Think about it that way. And in those scales, they can also tell if somebody is trying to pretend they`re sick or lying.
ARUTT: Very well said, Dr. Drew. Exactly. And that`s something that I`m asking where are the psychological tests? Where`s the data that he can use to back up what he`s saying?
PINSKY: You know, he did. He did a 40-point questionnaire or the one -- I forget which one it was, but it was a very abbreviated -- she is in jail. He could do extensive testing on her and he did one of the most abbreviated methods.
ARUTT: -- that can happen. I do think he did a very good job explaining the fight or flight system. I`m also a PTSD specialist, and I think he did a good job of explaining that part. But then, it sort of departs into memory formation and the conclusions which I think are really not supported by the data.
PINSKY: OK. Brian, go.
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, ATTORNEY: I`ve cross-examined over a hundred expert witnesses over the years. Believe it or not, this expert witness did a pretty good job of resonating with the jury. He explained a very difficult topic that`s complex in a very simple manner, and he was very measured. And he looked at the jury when he had to. So, I really think he was effective.
PINSKY: OK. Lisa --
BLOOM: Well, I got to disagree. The central core of his testimony is that the homicide incident, the murder, caused memory loss. That`s like saying I killed my parents, take pity on me because I`m an orphan. I`ve think he`s going to get destroyed on cross-examination.
PINSKY: I think he certainly could. Now, I actually have somebody from -- a caller From New York. Miriam wants to give a grade. Miriam, what do you say about the defense witness?
MIRIAM, NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew. I give Dr. Samuels an "F."
MIRIAM: Yes. He speaks too much about soldiers and the police and everything. And I don`t think he ever had a patient like Jodi.
PINSKY: And remind ourselves, I think Karen pointed out, he only saw her a few times. Renee in Ohio, give us a grade.
RENEE, OHIO: Hi, Dr. Drew. I give him a big "F," and I can`t tell you what the up (ph) stands for, I`ll tell you.
PINSKY: Causes memory loss. Thank you, Lisa. That`s right. Causes memory loss.
RENEE: He really was going out for the defense team, honest to God (ph), and for him to bring military and police into it about PTSD, are you kidding me? I mean, I think the jury would be insulted by that.
BLOOM: Interesting on the defense team.
PINSKY: Yes, indeed, it does. And I would say, I`m giving sort of a mixed picture on the guy. I agree with, Brian. He had a great ability to communicate, but he was, I agree with Cheryl that he was straying into territory that he did not belong.
BLOOM: He was no Dr. Drew, OK?
PINSKY: Judge Karen, what is your grade for the defense witness? Go ahead. What`s the grade?
MILLS-FRANCIS: I give him an "I" for incomplete.
PINSKY: Oh, the "F" goes on the report card. Put an "I". Cheryl, what`s your grade for the defense?
ARUTT: I think he did a good job in some ways even though it wasn`t supported. I`m going to give him a "B+".
PINSKY: Fair enough. Brian, your grade.
CLAYPOOL: Drew, I gave limb a "B+" as well. You know, he reminded me a little bit of William Shatner from "Star Trek." I`m a "Star Trek" fan, so I have to up his grade a little bit.
PINSKY: OK. Lisa, you got a great form?
BLOOM: Presentation, so-so. Substance, not so good. I give him a "C+".
PINSKY: "C+". I`m going to give the guy a "B," but I`m watching him very carefully. That was just really the -- he sneak by with the B because of his ability to communicate with the jurors. However, if he continues down this path where he has no business and no expertise, he`s going -- I should do with Karen, I just give him an "I" until I decide --
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Next up. My jurors finally get to see somebody else besides Jodi on the stand. They`re standing by at the court hours to tell us if the real jury is suffering from trial fatigue. There they are. Be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s amnesia?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amnesia is a condition where a period of time in terms of memory is lost.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When i think of amnesia, I`m thinking we forget everything. Is that the correct way to think of amnesia in a clinical setting?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Some amnesias are very, very specific. But those who called psychogenic amnesias. We`re not talking about that today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re talking about the stress induced amnesia that occurs because the hippocampus is shutdown.
PINSKY: Time now for "Drew`s Jury." With me and my co-host, Lisa Bloom. Joining us, Katie Wick, our resident juror. She has been there throughout this trial and Stacey Fairrington who also seen a lot of it herself. Katie, you first. Your reaction to today`s expert witness.
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": I think that he is a really good witness, actually, Dr. Drew. He`s very articulate. He is very organized. However, there was a moment when I saw him walk over to the defense table this afternoon to kind of get the computer worked out, and he gave Jodi a big smile. Jodi gave him a big smile.
I am just kind of waiting for him to pull out his pompoms for her, because he is -- he`s like Jodi`s biggest fan, it seems. He`s a good witness, but I`m -- he seems not qualified to be doing saying what he`s saying.
PINSKY: Well, she -- to be fair to him, he was her psychologist. But Lisa, you saw something online that disturbed you, I think disturbed Katie even more.
BLOOM: Right. No. I`m with you, Katie. He`s not supposed to be an advocate. He`s posed to be an impartial expert, and the jury is probably - - I think he`s very astute that you picked up on that. Apparently, on his website, it says I can win any case for you. Again, that`s not what experts are supposed to do. Wait for that on cross examination.
WICK: Exactly. And I actually somebody said Katie, and I know this is hearsay, but somebody did say to me, Katie, did you hear that prior to him entering the courtroom, he was saying, wow, this is such a great case. And this is going to great for my book. So, I have my major worries. And the jury`s not paying attention to him very much as I said last week.
I think that the jury`s lost credibility with Jodi. Now, he`s got the responsibility of regaining that trust. I don`t see that happening.
PINSKY: I opened this show talking about how Jodi is starring in her own reality show. I have a feeling a lot of these players are beginning to think of it that way. Stacey, were you buying the amnesia defense?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh, no. I mean, when he sits and tries to talk about, you know, all the different things of amnesia, I just don`t even think it relates to this case at all. I don`t think she, you know, suffers from these different things that they`re trying to say. And one thing he said that really caught me today was he started to say about all these different factors that could create these, you know, memory losses and different things like that. And he said -- what did he say? He said --
BLOOM: Sex, hot water --
BLOOM: Emotional stress.
FAIRRINGTON: Yes. Exactly. That`s right. And he -- well he started to say, you know, they have nobody to talk to. And then Jennifer, the defense attorney said, now, would that be any different than not wanting to tell somebody about what you did. And he`s like, could you imagine if you had nobody to talk to about committing murder?
PINSKY: How tough?
BLOOM: She doesn`t have a boyfriend to talk to because she killed him.
FAIRRINGTON: And I think at this point the jury`s looking at that.
PINSKY: And he did say one thing I thought was very powerful. He said there`s no such thing as any -- it`s purely psychological. There`s all brain biology and all harkens (ph) back that. And then if you saw that tape we just played, he was talking about psychogenic memory problems. OK. He goes completely --
BLOOM: Which means?
PINSKY: Which means that it`s psychologically induced, even though, he`s gone on the record saying there`s no such thing as purely that. Melissa in California, you want to give this guy a grade?
MELISSA, CALIFORNIA: Oh, an "F."
PINSKY: Go right ahead. "F?"
MELISSA: Yes. He`s putting a lot of stress on out but being a main criteria or PTSD --
MELISSA: -- for Jodi.
MELISSA: But I`ve noticed watching the police interrogation, "48 Hours" and other news stories. She seems quite animated, demonstrative, and (INAUDIBLE). I`m confused.
PINSKY: Yes. I`m with you. And I bet some of that flat affect is something that she has manifested long before this event, that she has flat affect at times when she doesn`t need to put on the big show for the police. I bet flat affect is something -- people talk about her having this sort of weird phenomenon and darkness in her eyes and emptiness.
Flat affect is one of those qualities that people don`t know what to put a name to, but maybe what`s causing people to react to her that way. Go ahead, Katie.
WICK: Dr. Drew, I want to ask you a question. Even if one`s hippocampus is flooded, that doesn`t have anything to do with one`s ability to reason, correct? Because I don`t understand that they`re trying to tie this PTSD to the premeditation which is probably coming, but that wouldn`t affect Jodi`s capability of reasoning in the act, would it?
PINSKY: Correct. The hippocampus is about organizing and storing memories, and he didn`t make that point very clearly. The rest of the brain function can be quite normal but they don`t store things in long-term memory. I`m going to keep you guys with me. We`ll keep talking to you after the break.
PINSKY: Back with our jury and my co-host, Lisa Bloom. In case, Lisa, I don`t say thank you enough, thank you for great week here. You`ve done an excellent job. We appreciate it. Lisa, of course, is with Avvo.com. A-V-V-O, is that correct?
BLOOM: That`s correct.
PINSKY: All right, ladies. You guys have any -- having said through all that testimony today, anything that might seem muddled to you from what that gentleman was saying to you that I could clear up?
FAIRRINGTON: I do have a question. So, if PTSD considered an effect or center for somebody who commits murder, because as far as I can see right now, the only type of PTSD she`s suffering from is pretend.
PINSKY: Pretend trauma syndrome?
FAIRRINGTON: Is the pretend -- thank you. Yes.
FAIRRINGTON: That`s my question.
PINSKY: Yes. The PTSD is something that follows. And if you really listen to that expert witness today, he was saying that if somebody is a perpetrator of a homicide, later, they manifest PTSD symptoms. And he repeatedly kept saying that Jodi was having PTSD symptoms not necessarily in the event. He vaguely eluded to acute stress disorder.
He`s got to make that association much more powerful, and he didn`t mention anything about the effects of childhood trauma. She made this huge case about having been traumatized in childhood by her dad, her mom, with a wooden spoon and all stuff. That is critically important.
And if they cannot make that a strong scientific connection, there`s absolutely no point in having sat on the stand for all those days being led through all that history.
BLOOM: Drew, why wouldn`t we hear about that from the psychologist?
PINSKY: Hopefully, we will. We`ll hear more. We`ll watch more. We`ll talk more. Hang on, ladies. I`ve got to go. Thank you so much. We`ll get you again when we`re on next time.
BLOOM: Thank you.
PINSKY: "HLN After Dark" is next. I will see you all there. It`s a live hour-long look at what happened in the Arias trial. It`s Monday through Thursday nights at 10:00 for the length of the trial. Again, I`ll meet you there. Jane will be there, Nancy will be there. Again, a big thank you to Lisa Bloom. And, "HLN -- thank you to our callers as well and my guests -- "HLN After Dark" starts right now.