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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT
Interview with Mia Farrow, Martin Sheen and Craig Kielburger; Steubenville, Ohio Rape Case Shining Light on Rape of Young Girls in America
Aired March 14, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Two big stars, two devout Catholics. They have plenty to say about the new Pope and much more. Mia Farrow and Martin Sheen, both here live. Hollywood legends getting personal and political.
Also, the critic Midwestern City torn apart by a rape trial. On one side the football players accused. On the other, a 16-year-old girl who takes the stand tomorrow morning. I'll talk to her attorney.
Plus she grew up in Steubenville. My exclusive interview with Tracy Lords. A rape victim in the same city herself. She takes this case personally.
And being Dick Cheney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: We didn't find stock piles. We did find that he had the capability. And we believe he had the intent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: The most powerful and polarizing vice president in history. What he says now and have it could change your mind about him.
This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. The first full day for Pope Francis begins with private prayer. A pontiff known for being humble, part in the service of Rome's main basilica. He was there for about 30 minutes before turning to the Sistine Chapel for his first mass, speaking in Italian. He asked the cardinals to have courage. He also said that the church must move forward, a job that begins in earnest now that he's in charge.
My first guests tonight have a lot to say about the new Pope and that's just for starters. They're Mia Farrow and Martin Sheen, Hollywood icons, devout Catholics, and political activists. They are stars with a passion for much more than just the silver screen and they join me now along with a very impressive young man, Craig Kielburger who began the organization called Free the Children.
Welcome to you all. I'm very excited about this. Mia Farrow and Martin Sheen making their debuts on PIERS MORGAN LIVE, two of my favorite actors in history. How about that? MIA FARROW, ACTRESS: Thank you. Thank you.
MORGAN: So I don't want to blow too much smoke in your direction but let's just get that out of the way straight away. Given that we're all Catholics, all four of us are Catholics. Craig, you are. Martin, Mia and myself.
Going to start with the Pope because it was a momentous day yesterday. Mia, let me start with you, if I may. You were educated by nuns for most of your young life.
MORGAN: What is your view of the new Pope, the Catholic Church as it stands, and what the challenge is?
FARROW: Well, we're just figuring him out and part of it I love already, his commitment to the poor and his own -- avoiding the trappings of the very, very wealthy cardinals that we see sort of displaying their regalia but the other part of him that is so biased against marriage equality and intolerant, that's the part of the church that I feel that if everyone isn't welcome, it's very -- it's as if I was going to a country club and they said well, this person can't come because they are black or because they are Jewish or because they are gay.
I wouldn't feel comfortable going. And that's the problem I'm having with my church right now.
MORGAN: Yes, like, Martin, it's -- he's a fascinating man in many ways because he's the first Latin American Pope, he's the first non- European for centuries. He's somebody who today made a real statement. He refused to get in the papal limousine, he chose a very ordinary car instead. He then made it go back to the hotel where he'd been to pick up his own possessions, not sending one of the Vatican staff, and he paid his own bill.
Three statements of intent. "I am a man of the people." But Mia has got a point, hasn't she? Is that you can be as humble as you like but if you represent 1.3 billion people in the modern world, can you continue to hold down positions which many view as being anti-gay, very anti-abortion, very anti-female priests, divorced Catholics getting remarried in church and so on.
I know that you agree with some of those things, disagree with others. But what do you think the new Pope needs to do to slightly move with the times without alienating perhaps the traditions of the church?
MARTIN SHEEN, ACTOR, ACTIVIST: Well, I think he took a very important first step by choosing the name Francis. I mean that says a great deal about who he is, where he comes from, what he stands for. There's no question or doubt that he is a simple man who is deeply committed to a life of austere poverty and he's bringing it to the highest office in the church.
So I think we're going to see some very fundamental changes in behavior of the papacy, vis-a-vis his presence alone. That's a good thing. It's a very, very good start. You know, I could go on and on about some of the issues that Mia mentioned tonight, you know, I have to say I can't agree with a lot of the stance against homosexuals and a lot of the issues that we deal with all the time, but at the same time, frankly, I would still be a Catholic if there was no Pope. If they -- you know, if they ran out of dough in the Vatican and said, we have to close it down, you're all on your own.
I love the faith and it's what nurtures me. And the church is a conduit. It's not the end of the journey but it is a way to get there, but all of us have to find our own way. You know, we can't -- we can't carry anybody else's responsibilities. We have to be responsible for ourselves. And I think that that's what the gospel teaches us. We have to find a way to unite the will of the spirit to the work of the flesh. And that's how we find ourselves living an honest and free life.
MORGAN: And we have to, Craig, as well, bringing you in here, you are a great force for the youth around the world now. You've got to bring the youth into this in a way that engages them. There are lots of young Catholics, I know many myself who are a little bit -- they feel a little bit disenfranchised from the church because they are not instinctively anti-gay. You know, they're not instinctively I guess on the more conservative traditional end of the church, but they've been raised to have faith and to believe in the church, and they respect their parents in many cases, and they don't want to cause too many ructions.
How are we going to deal with that going forward? How are you going to get a more modern Catholic Church and in fact how are you going to deal with religion amongst young people generally of any type of religion?
CRAIG KIELBURGER, CO-FOUNDER, "WE DAY": You mentioned world Catholics. And as a young person myself, you know, I grew up, as you said, going through those motions. My parents hold the faith, church on Sunday, and to be candid, I didn't resonate with a whole lot of it. You know, I heard the words, I went through the motions. And in my case personally, it wasn't until I went overseas that the words you hear made sense, if a person's cold, you hold them. If a person is hungry, you feed them.
And first, I actually found my faith through service as opposed to the other way around where people find their service as a result of their faith. And I think for this question of relevancy that you asked, this is the big question I think for a lot of young Catholics who are drawn to the church because of faith in service.
Will the new Pope in choosing the name Francis, will he live that in a way that it relates to a new generation that wants to connect with the faith through service.
MORGAN: Mia, you had -- in fact, you and Martin both had I think big moments involving your faith. Your one came I think it started with Rwanda, you began to doubt your faith then. That doubt increased in Darfur. Tell me about that, because I think everyone who has any faith, any religion goes through these big confrontational moments like this where they see something they just cannot see befitting a kind and Christian religion.
FARROW: Well, I didn't lose my faith in God and in my own commitment to what I think my religion means to me but I did lose faith in Rome. I was horrified that the Pope at the time of the Rwandan massacre -- this is a Catholic country, Rwanda -- made no attempt to go there and to halt the killing. And I mean, who among us would not have tried? And on the contrary many of the perpetrators were actually sheltered. So I disengaged with my faith at that point.
And then when I went to Darfur some 10 years later, by then I had cast away any allegiance to Rome and I saw -- you know, if only we'd had a Pope like Archbishop Desmond Tutu, for example, who was engaged on the issues that concerned the most needy of humanity.
FARROW: You know, and I -- as Desmond Tutu does. But I just separated from my faith and I feel the absence.
MORGAN: I mean, Pope Francis certainly I think the needy and the poor are absolutely the forefront of what he will stand for. It's always been the way he's been in Argentina. And I think that he is sincere about that.
Martin, you had a similar moment. I mean, you had basically I think given up your faith and then about 20 years ago, it all came roaring back. What was it that got you back into being a devout Catholic again?
SHEEN: Well, I had a similar experience as Mia had. You know, I was raised Catholic and I abandoned it in my early 20s and I came back when I was 40 and it was not kind of an overnight thing or a conscious thing like lightning at Damascus. It was gradual. It was -- what would you call it, a natural progression of what I was involved in. And I guess the final act in that progression was a time I spent in India while I was making Gandhi and -- I was there with my son Emilio, and we were both just overwhelmed by the level of poverty.
You know, poverty has a smell, it has a -- it has a flesh and a blood, up close and personal it will get to you and if you are at all sensitive, it will change you for the good. And -- so that's what did it for me. Eventually I came back to practicing Catholicism because the church was the central energy really in the world that was focused on serving the poor, doing the acts of mercy, speaking out against injustice, standing with the marginalized, giving a voice to the voiceless and a conscience to the gospels, really.
So I take the gospels seriously. I think most of the clergy and the faith -- people involved in the faith, do that, and I think that that's what we're required to do, to have an honest and free life and to become ourselves, really. MORGAN: Let's take a short break. When we come back and talk about We Day and Free the Children which, Craig, it's all down to you and get Martin -- I just want to talk about where America is right now. A lot of people suffering in this country. How you're going to bring all this here.
And also about guns. Today was a big day up on the Capitol about guns. And I want to get all you to weigh in about that. So we'll talk about all this after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER HUDSON, RECORDING ARTIST: It is such an honor to be in this room with all of you angels. To me you're angels.
AL GORE, PHILANTHROPIST: Never, ever doubt for one moment that you can change the world.
FARROW: Do all the good you can by all the means available in all the ways you can, in all the places you can at all the times you can for as long as ever you can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Celebrities like Jennifer Hudson, Magic Johnson, Demi Lovato, the Jonas Brothers, and of course Martin Sheen and Mia Farrow with join 30-year-old Craig Kielburger of Free the Children. And I'm back with them now.
Let me come to this in a moment, Craig. It's an incredibly important powerful thing that you're doing and it's really -- resonate around the world in a really influential way. First I want to talk guns briefly. Today was a big day up on the hill. Dianne Feinstein, the senator, went head-to-head with some of her colleagues there. She's got over the last hurdle before the Senate now have to vote but the feeling is the Senate will not vote for an assault weapons ban.
Let's see a little clip of Dianne Feinstein in action today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: It seems to me that all of us should begin as our foundational document with the Constitution.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: I'm not a sixth grader. Senator, I have been on this committee for 20 years. It's fine you want to lecture me on the Constitution. I appreciate it. Just know I've been here for a long time. I come from a different place than you do. I respect your views. I ask you to respect my views.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Senator Feinstein there. Mia, you've got 14 children, including 10 adopted kids. Sandy Hook many felt would be a tipping point in the gun violence debate in America but already you can see it hitting stumbling blocks up in Washington. Most senators preferring not to engage in some spat with the NRA and playing safe.
What do you make of what is going on at the moment?
FARROW: I think they're really cowardly because they know in their hearts that there's no need -- we're talking about assault weapons here.
FARROW: No has ever -- and I've watched this show -- given a good reason for having them, unless our government is going to invade them or something which of course is asinine so I don't get it. Good for the senator for going forward. She's great and she's right.
I do think Newtown was a kind of a turning point, even if we don't get all that we need to happen immediately. It broke something in all of us but also in the barriers to go forward. I believe they're crumbled. I believe people will stack them up but the break has been made.
MORGAN: Martin, you've got four children. What do you make of -- I prefer to call it a gun safety debate now. Gun control seems to send the wrong kind of tone to people. They get very exercised about Second Amendment liberty, freedom, and so on. Let's change the word control to safety. It's about making America safer country.
Why do you think so few politicians are taking what I would see to be a courageous moral lead on this?
SHEEN: Well, what's new.
I was very proud of our --
MORGAN: I mean President Obama would.
SHEEN: Our Democratic senator --
From California, Senator Feinstein stood up and made us all very proud here in California. Good for her. And you know, this is going to be a long arduous climb up a very steep mountain. It's not going to be easy for anyone on both sides but the bottom line is the gun manufacturers have to take responsibility. The debate has to land in their factories. They are the ones that are making the most profit. They are the ones who can make the biggest change.
MORGAN: Yes, I couldn't agree more. Craig, young people, let's turn to America. Let's focus on America for this particular question. They grow up around guns. There are 300 million guns in circulation. And every day, I see stories of young kids accidentally being shot or using guns to shoot their siblings, whatever it may be. It just seems to be never-ending. How do you change the debate around children and in particular with guns, particularly following what happened at Newtown?
KIELBURGER: It is horrific. And it needs to change. And you know you talk about in America, we spend a lot of our time also on the international front. And seeing child soldiers holding a gun in their hand.
KIELBURGER: No child should ever hold a gun in their hand for any reason. You look at the reality that children, and when I say children, you know, they can be teenagers, young people who face a lot of challenges in their lives here, the violence that we see needs to end. And I think at the root of that is talking about guns, it's also talking about compassion, it's also talking about empathy, and it's how do we create a culture that tackles issues, whether they be guns or whether they be homelessness, or whether they be poverty.
And I think at the root of that we need to engage a whole new generation of people to get involved in politics, involved in service, involved in advocacy.
MORGAN: And this is --
MORGAN: This is very much really what your campaign is about, Free the Children. It has this We Day. Tell me what a We Day is. You've got 11 of them in Canada and America coming up. What are they?
KIELBURGER: They're stadium events. Young people earn their way in through service and volunteerism. It's free to attend. You have to earn your way to be there. So 160,000 students this year across North America are attending them in 11 cities and it's this incredible full day event where you hear from people like, as you saw, Jennifer Hudson or Archbishop Tutu or the Dalai Lama or Mia Farrow or Martin Sheen, who take to the stage.
And there's a full year program that runs in schools getting kids fired up around service. Just as important as reading, writing and arithmetic is critical learning on social issues, it's getting involved in issues you care about. It's making that part of the school system to create active local and global citizens.
MORGAN: Mia, it's also about engaging kids who may run astray, they may want to join gangs, they want to do this, do that. It's about making them think there is a power in doing something good and positive.
FARROW: Right. And as a mother, I know when a child is moving out of those adorable childhood years toward teenagehood or in the teenaged years, searching for an identity and a day that could be meaningful. Do I get another tattoo, maybe a piercing, will that make my day. But if they can find a way to help other people, they will find meaning in their day and it gives them the sense of identity and purpose and dignity that they need.
MORGAN: You -- your children, all 14 of them, I keep saying this, it's quite extraordinary, I don't know how you do it, but you do do it very successfully, and you -- you've really drummed into them the importance of the two R's, as you put it. Responsibility and respect.
MORGAN: Those are two things that a lot of young American kids and kids in every country, but we're in America now, could really do with refocusing on, I think.
FARROW: Right. Respect within your family, within your community, within your nation, within the international family, and to our brothers and sisters everywhere. We see because we're not related by blood, we think love and the deepest kind of commitment is the way the whole human family is related. So I've taught them that.
It's a vision of the world which back to Craig's using the word empathy, to feel for other people, to be connected to other people, and then maybe it would be moot about these sorts of weapons and guns that we don't really want to use them.
MORGAN: Martin, just very quickly, what is your view of Craig? Because pretty extraordinary thing for a young man to be doing. He's now got most of the world energized, and just by looking at my Twitter feed right now, I can tell that -- since he's been on, it's lit up with students all over the world delighted he's here spreading his message. Pretty impressive.
SHEEN: He certainly is. He's one of my heroes, frankly. I'm very proud to be a part of Free the Children and We Day. You know, this phenomenal youth movement has swept across Canada, it's coming to the United States soon. Both Mia and I are part of it, as are a number of other Americans, and we're so anxious for this program to take root here in America, because there is such a serious need for it.
You know, it gives young people a safe place to stand up, speak out and become involved. It informs them of -- about the issues and what they can do and more importantly invites them to make a personal commitment to change. And We Day is like this enormous rally and celebration of that commitment.
That's what I like about it the most. It's a joyous gathering of all of these heroic youngsters that have challenged peer pressure, that have stood up and said yes, I want to make a difference, and they look around and there are thousands and thousands of them all come together, and they realize that it is not so unusual for young people to make a commitment to serve others.
MORGAN: Exactly right. SHEEN: It's deeply, deeply gratifying.
MORGAN: Well, it's great to hear. Such a pretty joyous way to end the interview. I do want to say to Martin and Mia, I want you both to come back at a later day and do a proper interview where I look you straight in the eye and say how many times have you been properly in love.
Because I can tell Mia who just saw Tom Hanks from earlier was just desperate to tell me. So we will get that done other time. But the -- and I can tell Martin is, too.
But We Day hits the United States in Seattle on March 27th, Minnesota on October 8th. Take your kids, get them inspired, be part of the change.
Thank you all so much. It's been a delight having you on the show tonight.
KIELBURGER: Thanks, Piers.
FARROW: Thank you.
MORGAN: Coming next, the teen rape case dividing a city. I'll talk to the attorney of the alleged victim and my exclusive with Traci Lords who grew up there and has a shocking revelation to reveal about her childhood in Steubenville.
MORGAN: It's a disturbing trial deeply dividing the small city of Steubenville, Ohio. Two high school football players accused of raping a 16-year-old girl who was so drunk at a party she claims not to remember what happened.
Cell phone images of that night were tweeted, texted, and posted on social media. Hundreds are read out in court today. The alleged victim whose name we won't reveal is expected to take the stand tomorrow. And joining me now for an exclusive interview is her attorney, Bob Fitzsimmons.
Welcome to you, Mr. Fitzsimmons. It's a -- it's a trial that's dividing not just Steubenville but I think America. It plays to the sensitivities I think of another scandal involving football players behaving in a way that just is not acceptable.
Tell me about your client, how she feels. Tomorrow's going to be a big ordeal again for her, I guess having to relive everything that happened. How is she?
ROBERT FITZSIMMONS, ATTORNEY: She's doing OK. She was actually scheduled to testify today, Piers, and then we were told it's going to get moved until tomorrow. And there's even a possibility tomorrow that it may get pushed into the weekend. And this trial actually may not end up until actually Sunday, just because of the way the witnesses have been testifying so far.
MORGAN: The two young men involved, 16-year-old Ma'lik Richmond and 17-year-old Trent Mays, they're very young men. Your client is young. She's only 16, too. Critics of this who are sympathetic to the two accused say, this is no more than drunken silly hijinx, the type that go on all the time.
What do you say to that?
FITZSIMMONS: I think this really exposes a problem that we have in America and probably worldwide, almost, with children and parents as to knowing what our parents are doing. These children, I don't think this was a unique problem to Steubenville, Ohio. I think it exists all over the country. And I think it's a word of warning to all of us parents, myself, you and everybody else that has children, that we can't be best friends with our children anymore.
It kind of was a theory that people had for awhile. We need to be parents. And we need to find out what they're doing, who they're interacting with. And with the social media, it's so instantaneous for these kids to get together, it's a major problem right now.
And the drinking is just out of hand right now. The booze, 14, 15, 16-year-old kids, they're having parties in communities where neighbors should be able to realize that these kids are all here partying, underaged drinking and bad things just happen. It just does.
MORGAN: Yesterday, a witness said that your client was actually not unconscious and could respond to questions. Ma'lik Richmond said this to ABC. Let's watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you just grabbed her and that was a fun picture that you took?
MA'LIK RICHMOND, ACCUSED OF RAPE: Well, after that, I didn't think it was fun. But at first, during that --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the moment?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a joke picture?
RICHMOND: Yes. My friend texted me and he said that she's saying that you guys raped her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did you think when you read that?
RICHMOND: I just texted him like what are you talking about, you're playing; stop playing with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Is it possible that they were all so drunk and they just behaved in a way that was purely triggered by alcohol, that that picture was a prank? It's an infamous image that went round the world? That it was a silly prank, it got completely out of hand, and when these kids all woke up the next day, they all had bitter regret about what happened?
FITZSIMMONS: I guess anything is possible. But from what I've heard today, e-mails -- a slew of e-mails were introduced through Attorney General Dewine's office. They're doing an excellent job, put on e- mail after Twitters and messages back and forth between the -- one of the defendants and many other people describing what had happened. And in their own words, calling this girl dead at the time, motionless, totally out of it at the time.
The last witness today came in who claimed to be the best friend of one of the two defendants and said that she was totally out of it. There was no question that she was highly intoxicated. And also admitted that he was the best friend to one of the defendants.
So there is some conflicting testimony and some conflicting evidence and some spins that happened. But when you put it all together with the e-mails over about a six, eight hour period, photographs that you haven't even talked about here with this young victim naked, with the boys in the picture nearby and some of the dastardly things said about her, that were actually talked about, were just despicable.
And it's a lot more than just somebody going out and having sex at 16 years of age. This is about the obligation of young children, teenagers that need to have actually responsibility when they're drinking that they can't take advantage of people. They just can't do that anymore.
MORGAN: Yes, I completely agree. I think the behavior clearly is utterly revolting. Whether it constitutes rape, I guess the trial will now unravel. I'm very grateful to you for joining me, Mr. Fitzsimmons. We'll be watching with keen interest. I'm sure I'll talk to you again.
FITZSIMMONS: Thank you, Piers.
MORGAN: Residents of Steubenville say this case is giving the city an unfair image. Joining me now for another exclusive is actress Tracy Lords, who grew up in Steubenville. And she says she was raped there at the age of 10.
Tracy, thank you for joining me. Clearly you do not, I would imagine, feel this is the wrong image for Steubenville. You went through an appalling experience yourself there. Tell me about that.
TRACY LORDS, ACTRESS: I was born and raised in Steubenville, Ohio. And I was also raped in Ohio, as was my mother. I think that there is a sickness in that city. And when this all started to appear on social media, I had a lot of my fans Tweet me and ask me what I thought, what do you think, what do you think. I usually don't respond to issues like this, because I'm a public person, I'm an entertainer, and I don't want the heat that goes with it, you know. People come after you. And the last thing I wanted was the "look at this slut talking about this slut" thing. But I just couldn't stay silent about it because it just -- it affected me so deeply.
And I was so horrified by these images and the way that this young girl was treated. And I got really angry. So I wrote a song called "Stupidville," which is what all the locals in Steubenville, Ohio, used to call Steubenville. Actually, somebody Tweeted me earlier that most of Ohio calls Steubenville Stupidville because there is a lot of alcohol. There is just a lack of regard for women.
That was my experience. I think that that's definitely my mother's. And the whole thing has just -- it's just brought it all back to me.
MORGAN: Your attacker was 14 years old, a little bit younger than these two boys. But from what you're saying, do you think there is a cultural issue there in the way that young men are brought up in Steubenville? Are they brought up to be disrespectful to women, do you think?
LORDS: I think so. Yes. I do think so.
MORGAN: Let's take a short break. When we come back, we will bring in attorney Gloria Allred, who says the Steubenville case could and should change everything when it comes to attacks against women.
MORGAN: The debut of a graphic new music video, "Stupidville" by Tracy Lords, about being raped as a child in Steubenville, Ohio. The trial now under way isn't just about the assault of a 16-year-old girl. It's about bystanders who may have done nothing to stop it.
Back now exclusively with actress Tracy Lords who grew up in Steubenville. And joining me now is attorney Gloria Allred.
Gloria, you heard there the attorney for the girl, who said she was raped, and Tracy who herself was raped. You yourself have been through a similar ordeal. What do you make of this case? What does it tell us about modern young America?
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, I think what's important is what the prosecutor said today, which was that it's really about degradation. It's about humiliation. And it is about a vulnerable 16-year-old child. That's what it's all about.
The defendant, she alleges, that is the prosecutor alleges, knew that she was substantially impaired. She was substantially impaired. And they exploited that. They took advantage of it. And that is what she is going to try to prove in this case.
I think in reference to the young people who are being prosecuted and others who just Tweeted and texted images, naked images of this victim out there, rather than trying to help her, that is a very frightening development, because apparently they think their job is just to communicate rather than come to the aid of a victim.
MORGAN: But here's what I would say, Gloria. And this is by no means any defense of what these kids got up to. But they're the same age as this girl. Clearly they've all been drinking. They've all been partying. They're all behaving in a stupid manner. And it's got completely out of hand.
The technology that they are using is what young people do. I have three teenaged sons, everything is about texting, sending pictures. Everything is in the moment, sharing everything on Facebook, Twitter, whatever it may be.
So incredibly revolting, though, it is to us, and unacceptable, is it just a symptom of the modern times and technology, that actually when it didn't exist, kids would behave in a drunken stupid way in this way and regret it, but they wouldn't all be hauled to court because there would be no evidence?
ALLRED: I don't think it's just stupid. And I think it's much more than that. I mean, here you have this victim who allegedly was digitally penetrated by a male fingers, when she was in a state, Piers, where, at least the prosecutor alleges, not only could she not consent, she couldn't resist. And she wasn't participating in it. She wasn't talking. She wasn't moving.
She was completely vulnerable. I say that's more than stupid. I see it as dangerous. And I see it as, if it's proven, it's a crime.
MORGAN: Tracy, what is your view about this in terms of, you know, young kids do behave badly. I'm not going to keep saying the same thing. But they do behave in a ridiculous manner when they're intoxicated. They all seem to be deeply regretful about what happened. And the taking of pictures and everything is a modern day curse, if you like. It's what they all do with everything. Do you have any sympathy at all with these two young boys?
LORDS: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. They treated her like she was an animal. They're carrying her around like she's a pig. They urinated on her. What they did, it's hard for me to even believe that we're talking about children. It's so ugly. It's so beyond.
I'm a mother. I have a five-year-old son. I keep asking myself today, you know, where were the parents? What were they thinking? Where is -- like zero respect. No respect. It's not even human. It's outrageous. It's ugly. It's heartbreaking. It's all of those things.
But are they guilty? Really? You know, I know that they haven't been proven guilty as of yet. But I mean, it's our sisters, it's our daughters, it's our mothers. This conversation needs to become much louder. I'm so happy that people like Anonymous are saying -- talking about this. I want to be part of this conversation not only because it's happened to me, but because it needs to be screamed from the tallest buildings. This needs to stop. (CROSS TALK)
ALLRED: The prosecutor pointed out they treated her, in her words, like a toy. And this is a human being. This is a young woman. This is somebody's daughter, as Tracy has said. And they need to learn that there are boundaries and they have crossed those boundaries.
MORGAN: Also, I think Tracy raised an interesting point. As a parent, where are the parents here? Where are the role models telling these kids this is just completely unacceptable behavior? I would be absolutely horrified if one of my sons behaved in that manner. And if that was my daughter that had gone through that, I would be vengeful and I would be wanting legal retribution in the way that her family is.
It's an appalling indictment I think of a mindset amongst the young that almost is encouraged I think by this new technology that anything's acceptable. It's not.
ALLRED: Well, I agree. I think there's also the pornification of our culture, where a lot of young men think that if a woman -- or young woman says no or doesn't say anything, that that equals yes, that they can do it and they don't have to ask consent. A woman doesn't have to be in a position where she can give consent. And they think it's a joke.
Well, young women and their bodies are not a joke. And they need to learn that they can't cross that boundary.
MORGAN: Tracy made an interesting point. Do you think, Tracy, that the amount of pornography that these kids can get access to on the Internet and so on these days is having a bad effect on them? Is it desensitizing them to proper behavior with women?
LORDS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
ALLRED: And also, what about the kind of sense of entitlement that some football players have, young football players who are admired in the town, who are often glorified in some towns. Not to say that all football players would do this, they wouldn't. But I think we have to let them know that male privilege does not include violence against women.
MORGAN: Tracy, you have a new book out. Tell me the title quickly, please.
LORDS: Actually, I wrote my autobiography in 2005, "Tracy Lords, Underneath It All." And I do talk about this in there. My new song "Stupidville" is up on my website, TracyLords.com.
MORGAN: Great. Tracy, Gloria, thank you both very much. This trial will be a fascinating trial to follow. And it will be over the next few days.
When we come back, feared and applauded. He was the most powerful vice president in history. I will talk to the director behind an eye- opening documentary about Dick Cheney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He looked up at me and said you're the solution to my problem. The reason I finally said yes was because I was convinced he was deadly serious about it being a consequential position. I took him seriously in terms of the reasons why he said I was the guy he wanted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Dick Cheney on how President George W. Bush picked him for his running mate. This from "The World According to Dick Cheney," the riveting new documentary on the most powerful vice president ever. The director is R.J. Cutler and joins me now.
R.J., it's a fascinating insight into one of the single most polarizing figures of modern American political history, I would argue. Do you like Dick Cheney?
R.J. CUTLER, DIRECTOR: Well, he certainly was very generous with his time. He sat with me for 20 hours over four days. On the fifth day, invited my team to go fly fishing with him and -- and supported the making of this film. So I'm grateful to him for that. My apologies --
MORGAN: Is like a hard word to use when it comes to him? Is he a likeable man?
CUTLER: Absolutely, and an engaging man and somebody who is clearly very committed to his point of view and committed to -- I think to the establishment of a legacy that's consistent with his point of view.
He believes that what he did in his time in office and really over his 40-year career was the right thing. He believes that his convictions are the right convictions. He's not at all a man in retreat. But, you know, my politics really are beside the point here. This is a film that is examining, as you say, one of the most significant vice presidents, I would argue one of the most consequential non- presidential political figures this country has known. And it's an attempt to fathom him and to tell his story the way history will understand it.
MORGAN: Let's look at another clip from Dick Cheney talking about terrorism and how you deal with it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: Tell me what terrorist attacks, they said, you would have let go forward because you didn't want to be a mean and nasty fellow. Are you going to trade the lives of a number of people because you want to preserve your honor? Or are you going to do your job, do what's required, first and foremost, your responsibility to safeguard the United States of America and the lives of its citizens. (END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: As uncompromising as I expected him to be. It's an interesting point, in the beginning of the film, you do a quick Q&A with him. He's very quick to answer his favorite food, his idea of happiness, amongst other questions. But when you ask him what his main fault is, he struggles to answer that. It's not a man who, I don't think, who sees much fault in himself.
CUTLER: Yes, you would think he might say I'm too awesome. I'm right too often. I don't know what to do. But he had no answer to that. The clip you just played was particularly striking as well. Because here he is comparing honor and duty and dismissing honor as a value in the face of duty. And I think we have seen throughout history the complications that arise from that and the problems that arise from that.
MORGAN: Will history judge him in a fairer way, do you think, in centuries to come than perhaps this generation will?
CUTLER: Well, it's hard to know. History will certainly, I think, consider Dick Cheney in the context of what makes a democracy succeed and what is problematic for a democracy, which is to say, we need men and women of conviction to represent us in Washington. We need leaders who believe in things. When leaders don't believe in things except getting themselves re-elected or stopping the other side from accomplishing things, the gears of democracy grind to a halt.
But too much conviction -- yes, but too much conviction, to the point of no compromise, can veer into demagoguery. And there are serious issues that arise.
MORGAN: He has seen the movie. What was his reaction?
CUTLER: Well, he has to speak for himself. I went and showed it to him. You know, he had given me a great deal of time and trust. As I say, sat with me for a long time in having these conversations. And I wanted him to see the film so we could discuss it afterwards. I think it's safe to say that he likely would have made a different film than I made, were he making a film. But he -- we had a very thoughtful, engaging, spirited conversation afterwards.
And as I say, I'm grateful to him for trusting me to make the film.
MORGAN: You've made some great movies I've thoroughly enjoyed. I particularly enjoyed "The September Issue" starring another, as many people see it, evil dictator or glorious, magnificent empress, depending how you view her. I view her as the glorious empress Anna Wintour, just being promoted to an even higher empress chair.
If I could offer you a chance to take either Anna Wintour or Dick Cheney to a desert island for the rest of your life, which would you take?
CUTLER: Well, it's -- that's -- Anna Wintour is a remarkable figure.
MORGAN: Documentary maker, answer the question.
CUTLER: No, no. You're talking about the greatest fashion editor to ever live. And they're both -- I mean, listen. I love making films about people who are extraordinary at what they do and are deeply committed to their work.
MORGAN: You'd take Anna, wouldn't you. Although, I have to say, Dick Cheney would probably shoot you more food.
R.J. Cutler, it's a great movie. It's on tomorrow night. "The World According to Dick Cheney" premiers on Showtime tomorrow. Good to see you.
CUTLER: Likewise. Thanks so much.
MORGAN: And Anderson Cooper will be with you in just a couple of minutes. That's all for us tonight.