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Jodi`s Amnesia Guy; A Killer`s Brain
Aired March 18, 2013 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we will take you inside, inside Jodi Arias` brain. I assure you it doesn`t look anything like yours or mine.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: I thought you said the relationship with Mr. Alexander was very stressful.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: Some of the sex wasn`t.
ARIAS: Some of the sex wasn`t.
MARTINEZ: So, you did enjoy sex then. Is that what you`re telling me?
ARIAS: At times I did.
PINSKY: Inside Jodi`s relationship with Travis Alexander, we have exclusive pictures of them together as a couple, including the night they met.
ARIAS: I feel like maybe it shouldn`t have been me, that maybe -- that I made it out of there and I didn`t have a choice, but I -- maybe I did have a choice. I could have just let him do what he was going to do and not fought back.
PINSKY: And we`re going inside the courtroom with my jury. Who was on the receiving end of Jodi`s evil eye?
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening. Thank you for joining us.
My co-host this week, former defense attorney and prosecutor Mary Fulginiti.
You are watching the continuing coverage of the Jodi Arias trial. Testimony is live as we speak.
Joining me, attorney Mark Eiglarsh at SpeaktoMark.com, attorney Lauren Lake, and criminologist Casey Jordan.
Before I go to my panel, we`re going back to the courthouse right now.
Take a look at this.
MARTINEZ: With regard to these photographs, our information or you can see on there the date and the time.
RICHARD SAMUELS, PH.D., DEFENSE EXPERT WITNESS: Right.
MARTINEZ: Give me a date that`s --
MARTINEZ: At what time? Give us the time.
SAMUELS: One-forty-two p.m.
MARTINEZ: At that time, sir, according to your assessment, she was not suffering any of these foggy memory bents was she?
SAMUELS: To my knowledge, that`s true.
MARTINEZ: No, you`re the one that told us when she was. Do you remember you did the graph thing?
SAMUELS: The foggy memory occurred at the time of the killing.
MARTINEZ: Right. So at that point, she was not having any memory problem or any memory problems, right?
MARTINEZ: And she wasn`t foggy, right?
MARTINEZ: So that is an inconsistency, it cannot be attributed to her having a foggy memory, correct?
SAMUELS: That`s true.
MARTINEZ: I don`t have anything else, thank you
MARTINEZ: Well, I mean, pursuant to what we`ve talked about. I don`t have anything else today.
JUDGE: The objection is overruled. The answer will stand. Ladies and gentlemen, we`re going to take the evening recess. Please sit back in the designated area. Can everyone be here at 10:00 tomorrow morning, 10:00?
Have a nice evening. You are excused. Please remember the admonition.
PINSKY: And there you go. The court is dark until tomorrow 1:00 Eastern Time.
Well, Jodi`s own defense expert dug a deep hole. He did, in fact, when he was cross-examined by Juan Martinez.
My co-host this week, Mary Fulginiti. Mary, a few questions for you before we go to some tape. What does a guy like that get paid to be a defense -- to be a special -- what do they call it -- an expert witness? And two, is it customary for prosecution to be as officious as Martinez was?
MARY FULGINITI, ATTORNEY: You know, number one, unfortunately, experts do get paid. They get paid by one side or the other. And obviously it`s usually in the defense side.
PINSKY: A lot?
FULGINITI: Yes. And some can get paid thousands of dollars. So, they`re like hired hit men in some situations, right? And people obviously, it goes to their credibility. They`re just being paid to come up with a conclusion here that is ultimately one that will favor the defense.
And as for Juan Martinez, you know, at first I thought when he came out punching and swinging that it was going to backfire, but it hasn`t. He`s really seem to put a lot of pressure on this particular witness, and he`s crumbling.
PINSKY: Oh, yes. And we`re going to get into that great detail.
But, first, I`m wondering what Jodi was thinking while this was all going on. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMUELS: That in turn places the body in a fight or flight situation, if there is a threat. That produces a flood of adrenaline. The loss of memory covers a finite period of time.
Perhaps I could draw a diagram.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would that make it easier to explain?
SAMUELS: I think it might be easier if I could just show that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll hand this to you obviously.
It`s possible that in the course of this there are slight hills and valleys within this loss of capacity. This memory function is either gradually deteriorating or gradually being restored. Memories can begin to occur but often times they`re reported as being foggy or fuzzy.
She began to remember becoming reconnected to her environment while on that road in Arizona, covered with blood. That`s the part of the intrusive memories.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those things that pop-up into her memory without control?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And is that -- I guess, is that what makes them intrusive?
SAMUELS: Yes, because you can`t really control them. They just pop up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you`ve talked before with us about Jodi`s journals.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And have you read them all?
SAMUELS: I believe I did, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She seemed to take a look at life through rose colored glasses.
SAMUELS: Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she accentuate the positives?
SAMUELS: Always. It was cried out to me that this is a young woman who was suffering from very low self esteem. One of the criteria for post- traumatic stress disorder are -- is blunted affect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, you told you were concerned about how the prosecution would handle this defense witness. So, did your prediction play out?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: In part it has, but he`s doing a lot better with this witness. No question. I`ll give him that.
He finally hit the major issue, and that is garbage in/garbage out. If she`s lying to you, and then your assessment of what she allegedly suffers from cannot be accurate, and he hit that. And I think that resonated with the jurors. >> he said, that`s the crazy thing. He said the ptsd inventory
PINSKY: Yes, he said -- I mean, that`s the crazy thing. He said the PTSD inventory, he used was a measure of her PTSD response to the ninja story, the ninja story which didn`t happen. So the entire thing was invalid. And in the PTSD inventory, she specifically says never had a sexual assault. Incredible.
EIGLARSH: Yes --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark. Finish.
EIGLARSH: The other thing is, he keeps talking about fight and then flight. But the flight is typically when somebody`s running away from something. She stopped. She deleted photographs. She put the camera in what she thought would be something that would eliminate the evidence. She then cleans up the crime scene. She drags his body to the shower.
This is not flight. This is not.
PINSKY: And, by the way, and, Mark, the whole fight or flight thing is a real grotesque oversimplification. Mary is a new guest this week. She`s experiencing the fight or flight responses sitting on this panel.
That`s -- you feel nervous. That`s the fight or flight response. That doesn`t cause your memory to shutdown, your consciousness to be interrupted.
Casey, help me out with that. And help me also and help the audience understand how this expert was stepping over boundaries and has a history of having done so.
CASEY JORDAN, PH.D., CRIMINOLOGIST: Two huge things. We learned last week that he had an inappropriate relationship with a former client. I think everybody was ooh ooh, sex. But it wasn`t sex at all. It was really simple. He did apparently some sort of forensic assessment.
And what he did is offer that client brief therapy for one of their family members in exchange for free dental work. You can`t barter on these things. You have to keep very careful records. I`m sure the IRS is interested in this. And he was sanctioned.
But more over, what we`ve learned today is this whole idea of him sending a self-help book by Amazon. Martinez I thought was masterful in bringing this out. Were you hired to assess her or treat her? Because they are two entirely different things. And what came out is that he did both.
PINSKY: Not only assess and treat, but then, this is the mistake that Conrad Murray made, guys, is that she -- he became her friend. I`ve got to make -- she`s human. I`ve got to make sure she`s OK. I`ve got to send her a self-help book.
Mary, you`re shaking vigorously, yes?
FULGINITI: Dr. Drew, with any of this case, you`ve had hundreds of patients, have you ever sent any a note, a card, a gift or a book?
PINSKY: Even when you receive that from a patient, you`re supposed to do that in a very circumspect way. And I`m internist, by the way. I would -- in that context -- I`m not doing mental health work. A mental health professional probably shouldn`t accept or send any of these sort of things, under any circumstance. It`s a boundary violation.
Lauren, one quick thing about the jury. Do you think they were listening carefully to all this or listening to how everybody behaved?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know, I`m going to be really honest, Dr. Drew. For a while, I thought Martinez was like majoring in the minors, meaning going on and on about this $9 book. I really thought he had made his point.
I disagree with some of the other guests. I know it may have been a violation. But I didn`t see whether it was -- I didn`t see where it was that strategic to hammer home for that long. I think the jury at this point is waiting tor him to get some meat, which is what Mark talked about.
Was his assessment based on a complete lie, meaning everything that you`re telling us is not true? Because what she told you wasn`t true.
PINSKY: I think you`re absolutely right.
And next up, the night -- we got to look at something, actually the night that Travis and Jodi met. We have exclusive new pictures of the couple.
Plus, I`ve got some video foot of Jodi standing on her head. We`ve got to figure out what that`s all about.
And later, we`re going to look inside what Jodi`s -- there -- look at that. Give me a break. That is during police interrogation.
What does the brain of a killer look like? And how does it compare to Jodi`s? We`ll show you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, WITNESS: Get the F on the ground! Oh snap.
The quality camera and like setting that`s like perfect. I mean, it could be, like, legitimate porn.
ALEXANDER: In every sense (INAUDIBLE). That`s hot.
The first thing I would hear a lot of is he`s single. And I am. Ladies, come get me.
Their idea of social time is to get drunk. I don`t like those people. I respect (ph) business people but that`s about it, they don`t have a soul.
I see myself face down with blood, in cold blood. Like this death. This is death.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Those are the many sides of Travis Alexander that we`ve come to know. And it`s rather sad.
Back with my co-host Mary Fulginiti.
Yes, it`s sad. I mean, this poor guy`s life cut short. He was a guy with a rich future. Lot of friends loved him.
FULGINITI: Oh, it`s devastating. I mean, the brutality of this crime just takes it to totally new atmosphere.
PINSKY: When you were a prosecutor, did you ever see anything like this?
FULGINITI: No, absolutely not.
PINSKY: So, you`re fascinated by this too?
FULGINITI: Oh my gosh. I sit there and I go, how could a human being really, we look at this young girl and go, how could she be capable in cold blood of committing such a heinous crime? It`s just too much even for a person to say, oh, my gosh. She had to have been crazy.
PINSKY: I think that`s the big issue. What I want to look at now, Mary, are these exclusive photos we have of Travis and Jodi.
But, first, two of Travis Alexander`s friends are here with us, Dustin Sumner and Charlie Ethington.
We have four new pictures of Jodi and Travis together. They are -- this is the first on HLN.
So let`s look at the first one. Here they are from the night they met. Wow. Who do -- Charlie, are you the one that gave us this picture? Did you actually take this picture?
CHARLIE ETHINGTON, KNEW TRAVIS AND JODI: No, I did not take that picture. I remember, I remember the night, that weekend also.
PINSKY: And, Dustin, any comment about that night? Or what happened to him that night? Did they have regrets? You know, where did that take them? We`re looking at them there in that picture, they look pretty happy.
DUSTIN SUMNER, KNEW TRAVIS AND JODI: I actually wasn`t there that evening the night that that picture was taken.
PINSKY: Let`s look at another of our exclusive photos. Jodi and Travis, this is them out. There they are. They look happy, Charlie. Was he happy with her a lot of the time until things started falling apart?
ETHINGTON: It seemed that way in the beginning. Like I said, I was there that weekend, but not that night. I remember the following day when we are in the convention and we were sitting in front of about 12,000 people. And she came and sat by him and she followed him around that night. As we got out of the convention we had some other meetings going on and some dinners.
ETHINGTON: We have -- you know?
PINSKY: All right. We have two other pictures. I want -- I want you to show these pictures alongside of us. I want to talk to Charlie for a second.
I want to talk to you about what you just said about her following him around. I`m beginning to formulate a theory, something called interpersonal terrorism. There`s another picture with Jodi with a scuba buddy.
In the personal terrorism, Mary, is something that men do sometimes when they use physical intimidation to overwhelm a woman and to put her in domestic violence servitude quite literally. They can`t get out.
PINSKY: I think -- Charlie, what do you think of this? We have another photo of Jodi. Again, these are firsts, Jodi and friend coming up alongside of me.
Charlie, what do you think about my theory that she used sex and the relationship, manipulation as a form of interpersonal terrorism, which when he thought he needed to leave, she then broke into violence like so many of these interpersonal terrorists do? And think about the people who burn the house down with their kids in it and kill their wife and their family. This is that kind of thing, except we miss it because it`s a woman, and she`s using sex.
Charlie or Dustin, you respond to that?
SUMNER: I would agree with that. It seemed that she was a manipulator. And used sex to get what she wanted. And when she didn`t, she acted out. That`s how I would view that.
PINSKY: And, Mark, do you agree with me on that? I`m formulating this theory. This is not, you know, simple couple violence. This is not simple couple stuff where people are hitting each other a little bit. This is a systematic progressive attempt to control Travis that then broke down when he tried to leave into violence.
Mark, do you agree with me?
EIGLARSH: Well, you`re the doctor, though. You`re the expert.
I know that her theory, what she`s advanced is completely inconsistent with the evidence. Her lack of emotion when she`s talking about her being abused -- listen, I have more emotion when I have a canker sore. So, I know what she`s saying is not true. I`ll go with your theory, Drew.
PINSKY: Mary, do you agree with me?
FULGINITI: Yes, but, you know, Drew, but what I like to know is, I`m actually really, you know, perplexed by her lack of emotion. She`s callous. She`s calm. She`s --
PINSKY: No, she has lots of emotion when you back her in a corner. Then she cries like a baby. As soon as you call her out, she has a panic attack and cries. But in terms of the kinds of things -- in fact, Mary, I`m so glad you called this, because we`re going to show brain scans of someone who does this and it will help you understand how it`s possible.
FULGINITI: Is there a psychological condition that associate with somebody that is so calm, cool and collected and callous about murder or about killing somebody?
PINSKY: The answer is yes.
FULGINITI: Thank you, gentlemen.
Next up, the behavior bureau is here. Thank goodness, because we can address specific of that issue. Jodi`s wearing green today. A little late for St. Paddy`s Day, dong you think?
And later, this is it for the defense. This is the last chance to save Jodi from potentially a death conviction. How are they doing? We will grade.
We are back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were shooting him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat? Were you cutting then?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
MARTINEZ: You`re the one that did this, right?
MARTINEZ: And you`re the same individual that lied about all this, right?
MARTINEZ: This is a very small closet, isn`t it?
ARIAS: No. It`s bigger than the cell that I live in.
MARTINEZ: It`s bigger than what?
ARIAS: It`s bigger than the cell that I live in. It`s not a small closet.
MARTINEZ: We don`t want to know where you live. Do you understand that?
ARIAS: I`m just giving it as reference. It`s not (INAUDIBLE).
MARTINEZ: Do you understand -- did I ask you where you were living?
MARTINEZ: And Mr. Alexander was stabbed. You would acknowledge that, right?
MARTINEZ: And you would acknowledge that that stabbing was with a knife, right? And that that stabbing was after the shooting according to you, right?
ARIAS: I don`t -- yes. I don`t remember.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: It is time for our behavior bureau. Look at that`s different Jodis.
Back with my co-host Mary Fulginiti.
And our panel joining us, criminologist Casey Jordan, forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt. I believe I may have Jenny also -- is she there as well?
Casey, I want to start with you. We will bring if she`s available.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM HOST: Hi.
PINSKY: There you are. Thank you for joining us.
Casey, I want to start with you. Did you hear that theory I was pushing a few minutes ago? First of all, Mary asked a really good question. How is this possible? How could somebody be capable of it this?
Take us through that again but that`s the big question mark and the thought bubble about everybody`s mind.
FULGINITI: And not be crazy.
PINSKY: And not have a diagnosable mental illness. Yes.
JORDAN: Are you talking about Jodi`s behavior with Travis?
JORDAN: Yes. I mean, I love the parallel, because we do talk about that kind of inherent intimidation that men can use with their physical presence that affects women. But I agree with you, the parallel is that Jodi is doing that with her physical presence but her sexuality. And remember, Travis is Mormon. He has this little hidden secret, these fantasies. They`ve been confirmed by the secret tapes, the phone sex, the phone calls.
But it`s not really that aberrant to normal society. But to Travis, he has deep guilt about it.
Jodi knows t his. She uses it to manipulate him. And every time he starts to go away, she puts her claws in him and pulls him back with her sexuality. And really he was intimidated by that because she is an afraid that she will tell his friends, tell his employer that he does have this other side that is completely in conflict with the image he presents to outward society. So she actually manipulates and intimidates him with this.
PINSKY: Cheryl, let`s keep moving this theory forward. I say it`s not even that she`s intimidating. She`s controlling him. A man may use physical intimidation to control. A woman can use psychological manipulation and sex to control.
And then when things go bad, Mary the reason she`s able to do this is just hike the guy that shoots his family if the wife tries to leave. People that are in domestic violence situations do this. Cheryl, take it.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew, what you really talking about is compliance. You`re talking about how does somebody go about getting compliance, getting someone to do what they want them to do.
And a man in a domestic violence situation may use violence and fear to motivate. She`s using her sexuality in order to get Travis` compliance, to get Travis what she wants him to do. And when he finally didn`t do what she wanted, then she killed him.
PINSKY: That`s right. That piece, that part, Mary, is when they decide to leave.
Sirius XM radio Jenny Hutt, Jodi looks dazed, distressed today.
PINSKY: Do you think she got any sympathy points with the jury, the way she looks so sad?
HUTT: I don`t. I think she`s trying to do, in a sense, in the way, what she did with Travis. She`s trying to curry favor in the way she thinks will work. I don`t think it`s working here. I think -- if you see her for a second you think ooh, poor thing. And then you think, oh, God, poor thing, what did she -- look what she did.
PINSKY: There you go.
PINSKY: That`s it. It`s poor thing. I feel sorry for you I think for one second.
PINSKY: And I`ve said this, Mary, I said this many times, I want to show the HLN audience the horrible autopsy photos because -- did you see -- have you seen them?
FULGINITI: Yes, they are so disturbing.
FULGINITI: And 27 stab wounds. What does that tell you all? Does that show someone who`s having -- you know, they snapped? There`s an emotional breakthrough? There`s a passion?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rage.
PINSKY: Remember the guy -- it`s rage, that`s right. Remember the guy that killed his family and burned the house down? It`s what people are capable of and it`s not just men.
Thank you, panel.
Next up, we`re taking you inside Jodi`s brain -- not necessarily a pretty place.
And later, we will get inside my jurors` heads. Are they spinning from all the mental health talk?
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMUELS: The more intense the crime, the more intense the distress, the more complete the amnesia tends to be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, you say more complete, what do you mean?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The loss is braver (ph)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About how many times did you meet with her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we met about 12 times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you have an idea about how many hours you spent with her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably between 25 and 30 hours all total.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: I call BS on that. The fact is, when -- I think challenge any of us out there. When you have a traumatic experience, what happens? Your memories intensify in adulthood. Childhood, we block it out sometimes. I`m back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. Mary is a prosecutor and defense attorney. And Mary, you still are wondering how is it possible, how can somebody do this, right?
MARY FULGINITI, ATTORNEY: Yes. I mean, definitely. I mean have to tell you. The gravity of this case is not -- this is not like any other criminal case I think I`ve ever seen in all of my years of practice. I mean, this is a very passionate, rageful, you know, crazy type of murder.
PINSKY: Slaughter. It`s a slaughter, but I want to control the play the picture alongside of us here. Here it comes. I want you to look at this, Mary. I want the audience to look at this, too. This is Jodi during her police interrogation. You mentioned to me during the commercial break how disconnected she was from the gravity of this. Look at her. She`s doing yoga and talking to herself and singing when the police officer leaves the room. It`s unbelievable.
FULGINITI: I mean, who does headstands, really, when they`re in the police interrogation room? Remember, I mean, if you don`t know that there`s somebody watching you at all time, who does a headstand? I mean, it just shows you that she has no connection to the gravity of the situation.
PINSKY: This is -- I -- this is the disbelief zone for me as well. I mean, I almost like -- and look at the slaughter now, oh yes, I get what Jodi is (ph), but when I see this, what is that all about? So, we`re going to look at her brain. We`re going to look at the brain of a killer and we`re going to look at what might Jodi`s look like as well.
Joining us, Dr. Daniel Amen, board certified psychiatrist and author of "Change Your Brain, Change Your Life." All right. Dr. Amen, let`s look at a brain here and speculate about whether or not Jodi`s does the same. You guys, show us one the brains of a regular person versus -- this is one that Dr. Amen scanned -- versus a brain that, perhaps, Jodi`s would look like. Go ahead, Dr. Amen. You can narrate this for us.
DR. DANIEL AMEN, AUTHOR, "CHANGE YOUR BRAIN, CHANGE YOUR LIFE": Well, you know, at the Amen Clinics, we`ve been looking at the brain for the last 22 years. We have actually scanned maybe five murders. And, they have a different brain. But it`s not always the same. So, what`s your looking at are two SPECT scan and SPECT looks at blood flow and activity.
In a healthy scan, we see most of the activity in the back part of the brain, in adults, in the murderers. In this case, we see too much activity in the front part of the brain. And this is what I would call one of our compulsive murderers. So people who they get a thought in their head and they just can`t let it go. And it can go over and over and over. And sometimes, they act out in a violent way.
PINSKY: Do you think maybe this is what Jodi got into? She became obsessed with this guy. She manipulates him. She gets in a power control relationship. He tries to break away. Now, she`s obsessing about what I can do. I slashed his tires. I break in his house, and finally, I started having murderous fantasies as well. Would that fit?
AMEN: Right, but she can`t let it go. Even though it`s clearly in her best interest to let it go and everybody`s best interest to let it go, she can`t. It`s like she`s got a little mouse in her head on an exercise wheel and the mouse can`t get off. And I have seen -- now, typically, what we see in murderers brain is low activity in the frontal lobe and that goes with the impulsive murderers, but hers doesn`t seem to be impulsive.
Now, of course, I`ve not evaluated her. But, when you just read the report, it`s like she can`t let it go.
PINSKY: Casey, you -- does that fit with your understanding of old Jodi?
CASEY JORDAN, PH.D., ATTORNEY: Yes. I would love, like Dr. Amen, to see a scan, a PET scan of her head. I`ve long followed the work of these doctors, especially Adrian Rain (ph) and James Sullen (ph), and they do find that there is something different in the orbital cortex of convicted murderers, especially serial killers.
But, that alone, that doesn`t explain it, because even Dr. Fallon (ph) who`s one of the pioneers in this research said, his PET scan is just as abnormal as a murderers. So, you really have to look at all of this information in the context of social upbringing.
Of all the other social variables that can either exacerbate this organic problem, or, in the case of Dr. Fallon (ph), he became a psychiatrist and his wife isn`t at all afraid to sleep with him at night.
PINSKY: He has a whole interesting story, but that`s story for another time. Mary, you have a question --
FULGINITI: I just have a quick question. What if you have obsessive- compulsive disorder? Would your brain look the same as murderer also just because you`re always obsessing?
PINSKY: Is that more temporal lobe?
AMEN: No. Obsessive-compulsive disorder the front part of the brain works too hard as well as some areas deeper in the brain. So, there are some differences. And I totally agree. A scan by itself will never explain everything. There are psychological factor, social factors, spiritual factors. But you always have to think about the brain.
And unfortunately, for many of these murderers, when they`re on trial, no one`s looking at their brain, because -- you know, and that`s a very important part of the puzzle, because a lot of these brains can be fixed. We have this scan of Kip Kinkel (ph) who killed his mom and dad and then shot 25 people. And his brain was very damaged.
PINSKY: I`ve got to interrupt, Dr. Amen. Mark, take us home. Is the brain the place we should be looking?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: For your show, absolutely, it`s fascinating, but for the courtroom, in case people are sitting at home going, why did she do this? I still have no idea. The answer is, you don`t have to have an answer. They just have to prove that she did it, which they did. And now, she`s raising self-defense, which I find as useless as the G in lasagna.
PINSKY: There you go. Thank you for taking it home, Mark. I know you would.
Later, I`ve got my jurors -- should experts in Jodi`s brain -- they should, in fact, be themselves (ph) experts in Jodi`s brain by now. They`ve been sitting there in the courtroom and watching. There they are. We`ll check in with them next.
And, actually, next up, before we go to jury, we`re going to talk about the defense and look at whether or not they are heading to the head of the class or wearing a dunce cap because we are giving them grades. Back after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HOST: I`m Vinnie Politan. Coming up at the top of the hour, our bold accusation, Travis attacked Jodi, picked her up, body slammed her, threw her down on the tile floor here in our recreation of the dead seed (ph). We`ll bring the jury here. They`ll see the blood, they`ll see the shower, and they will see the hallway.
RYAN SMITH, HOST: I`m Ryan Smith, and then, they`re going to see the closet. This is the place where Jodi Arias says she came in her and grabbed the gun to shoot Travis. Our in-studio jury as well as our virtual jury will ask any question they want of the defense and the prosecution about the bold accusation, Travis attacked Jodi.
That`s coming up at the top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the state says he has no objection to Mr. -- Dr. Samuels` testifying, but yet, he objects to the Power Point, what he`s saying is he objects to his testimony all together. My guess is because it`s actually helpful from Ms. Arias. Dr. Samuels is not changing his opinion at all.
His opinion and as it was in the report and during the interview when they interviewed him is that Ms. Arias suffers from PTSD.
Does it ultimately lead you to a conclusion about what the type of amnesia she might have?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears as if she suffers from dissociative amnesia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And that`s what we were just talking about here, right, with the memory function and the time.
PINSKY: At least, he backed off the transient global amnesia. Time for our report card. Back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. And tonight, we are grading the defense from their performance today. Handing out our grades, criminal defense attorney, Lauren Lake, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, criminologist and attorney, Casey Jordan.
So, did Jennifer Wilmot (ph), satisfactorily use this witness, and I`m going to add a little corollary to that with did she set him up in such a way that the prosecution could really have at him? Mark, what do you say?
EIGLARSH: Did i ask you about that? Did I ask you about what the prosecution said about -- I didn`t ask about that.
PINSKY: I ask you, Mark. What did they ask you? Yes. he`s so --
PINSKY: Is that bad? Should he be like that? Should he be like that is my question, I guess.
EIGLARSH: Listen, I got enough hate mail last week.
EIGLARSH: Listen, I love Martinez, OK, for the record. You know, when you spend that long on him giving a book to someone, all right, whatever. Back to the defense. Yes. I think they did the best they could with this witness. I mean, ultimately, you have to have somebody with some type of academic pedigree to suggest that that fog thing really exists.
All of us are rejecting it, except it only takes one juror. And I think she asked the right questions to get out at least some theory that none of us are buying, but it just takes one they might say OK, this fog thing really does exist -- a decent grade.
PINSKY: Interesting. Don`t tell me yet. Don`t tell me what you wrote (ph) down here. Casey, what say you?
JORDAN: Well, I`m going to give Dr. Samuels a D because he admitted today to (INAUDIBLE) that A, he was inappropriate, and he blurred these lines between assessment and treatment. And then, he gave an assessment of PTSD based on her confabulation of the ninja invader story. Ouch. That`s like really bad.
And so, I give a C to the defense team for even finding a hired gun who was willing to get on the stand in this case.
PINSKY: I know. It`s all right. I will review the grade at the end, too. But I`ll tell you what, Casey, he even said on the stand, Dr. Samuels said, perhaps, I should have re-administered the test to her once she told me the real story about. Perhaps.
JORDAN: --, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Lauren, how about you?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: OK. I have to admit, I`m a straight shooter. That was a hot mess what he said he did re-administer the test, but I will say this. In the beginning, Dr. Drew, I thought he was fairing OK. He got out the fog. He got out the amnesia. He got out the PTSD and you know what?
Regardless of whether the double intruder story is a lie or true, at least, that`s on the jury`s mind that maybe someone can snap out and not remember anything, maybe this is possible. So for that reason, I still think they`re fairing OK.
PINSKY: Mary, what about you? What do you say?
FULGINITI: Yes, I totally agree. I think, look, at this guy has a pretty decent job keeping together some of the facts and circumstances with regard to Jodi Arias, explaining her behavior or conduct as well as, you know, what might have happened.
PINSKY: -- how he related to the jury --
FULGINITI: -- you know, compelling at times. So, I think, after direct examination, I would have given him one grade. As I`ve seen him crumble, my grade is slipping a little.
PINSKY: We will find out what that grade is, but first, I`m going to talk to a viewer. Jen in Montana, what say you?
JEN, MONTANA: I give an F because Dr. Samuels is definitely not a credible witness for the defense.
PINSKY: So, we`re blaming the defense for their witness. We have one more caller. Who else we got out there? Before I give the grades, do we have another caller? Come on, let`s bring it in. Meaghan, Canada. Meaghan, go ahead? Meagan?
MEAGHAN, CANADA: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew. I`m so tired of hearing about this fog. Jodi is a liar. She knows what she did. And if she does not get convicted, they should just open up all the jail cell doors to all the murderers.
PINSKY: And do you have a grade for the defense?
MEAGHAN: Big fat D. He did a horrible job, especially when it comes to Dr. Samuels.
PINSKY: All right. Casey gave her grade already. So, let`s go over to Mark. Grade for the defense today, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Well, they found someone without a rainbow wig and a red nose. I give them points for that. He advanced the theory that they needed to be said. I`m giving points for the defense --
PINSKY: Mark, let`s get to the grade. Come on now.
PINSKY: B. Fair enough. Lauren, what do you say? What`s your grade?
LAKE: Because they`re still holding firm and the premeditation is still, for me, at issue, I`m giving them a C+.
PINSKY: OK. We`re at about 2.75 for this guy. Mary, what do you got?
FULGINITI: You know, I started with a B, Mark, too, until they started cross examination, and he started to really appear so disorganized and discombobulated. So, he ends up with a C+ for --
PINSKY: Oh, you took him down to C+ from the B.
PINSKY: OK. Sort about a C+, overall. I gave him a B, Dr. Samuels, for the very reason you liked him. But when he crumbled under prosecution today, he was heading towards D. Thank you, panel.
Next up, my jurors are back. Has the defense opened the door for some sort of a not guilty verdict or, in fact, have they slammed it (INAUDIBLE)? Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was suicidal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not asking you whether or not she was suicidal, right? Am i asking you that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you`re not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if she was suicidal, you`re the not the treating physician, are you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not treating her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if she was suicidal, it was somebody else`s responsibility to take care of that, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. Can we ask not to yell the witness?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He`s not treating and he`s not a physician. He`s a psychologist. Time for Dr. Drew`s Jury" with me, my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. Mary, as we were going out to break there, before we go to the jury, you made a very strong comment when I said maybe they`ve shut the door on a conviction or a not guilty verdict. Tell me what you said.
FULGINITI: Yes. I mean, I think the bottom line here, they`re not looking for not guilty verdict. They`re looking for either at best a hang jury but mostly to save her life. I mean, this case is all about trying to convince that one or two jurors really cut her a break and not --
PINSKY: She`ll be guilty of something.
FULGINITI: Possibly. Whether or not they can agree on what that something is, I think it`s going to be very interesting whether it`s premeditated or something below that. But I think, at the end of the day, we`re going to see probably some conviction, but will they actually, you know, say she should die, and I think that`s going to be a much more difficult hurdle for some people.
PINSKY: Well, joining us, Katie Wick, part of our jury, who hasn`t missed a minute of this proceeding, and Stacey Fairrington, also closely watching. What do you guys say? Is it possible this jury could send her to the death penalty?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh, yes. Absolutely. And I just want to say the only thing that Dr. Samuels got validated today was his parking, because Juan nailed it again. He totally invalidated 90 percent of what this guy said on the stand, over and over and over and over. And that`s when people get so excited when Martinez gets up.
And they said, oh, you know, is he yelling too much? Is he doing too much with her? I think he just gets excited because he knows -- I don`t know how he sits there. I mean, the notes he takes and everything and we`re taking notes. He invalidated him and we thought at the end that rested today with this guy.
But he said no, wait, your honor. I`m coming back for more. So, I don`t really think Samuels is going to get too much sleep tonight. It was an incredible day for the prosecution.
PINSKY: And Stacey, do you think the jury got how thoroughly Martinez sliced and diced the witness or were they just again, they seemed not yet interested in the sort of clinical nuances of things or were they into it today?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": You know, they were paying attention, and they were taking notes. They were submitting questions. But, I thought many times that their facial expressions were the exact same facial expressions I was making. It was like we were cheering Juan on. He was on his A game.
He was delivering the things. And at one point, Jennifer Wilmot got up and objected saying can you please ask the state to quit yelling at this witness and all of us were like, are you kidding? I mean, I thought he was talking once again, very, you know, in a way to this witness that was appropriate.
I mean, he was being evasive. He was trying to, you know, tell these lies and fabrications and, you know, skirt around things and I think the jury picked up on it completely.
PINSKY: And Katie, some of the things, the questionnaire she answered on post-traumatic stress disorder inventory suggested that she, in her questionnaire, specifically said, I`ve never had a sexual assault. I`ve never been in a violent situation. All of these things that she`s claiming she in those inventories said never happened to her.
WICK: Right. And she says, but she did have something with a stranger and Juan Martinez said Travis Alexander wasn`t a stranger so this entire report, Dr. Drew, is not true. It is based on a lie. And once again, in this case, we come back to Jodi constantly lying.
And oh, my gosh, there was a moment I actually felt bad for Jennifer Wilmot when what`s his name, Samuels, you know, actually, this was based on the ninja story or whatever. And he said, I actually should have re- administered the test? Whoa.
PINSKY: Yes. Katie, Absolutely.
WICK: I mean, we looked at each other.
PINSKY: I was talking to some people in my office when he said that and we all stopped and thought oh, my goodness. Let`s talk to Anna in New York. Do you have a question or a grade? What do you got for us, Anna?
ANNA, NEW YORK: I have a comment. Hi, Dr. Drew. I mean, this guy gets on the stand. He`s unprepared. He doesn`t even have the test with him. He`s making a joke of this. What do you think? I mean, do you agree?
PINSKY: And god knows how much he`s getting paid for this -- he may be getting paid, maybe tens of thousands. Although, I guess, who`s going to pay him, though? I mean, the state? Who pays him?
FULGINITI: Well, no, he`s going to get paid by the defense counsel here.
PINSKY: Defense attorneys will pay out of their pockets?
FULGINITI: Well, usually, if you hire an expert, you pay for that expert. They don`t work for free.
PINSKY: Jodi can`t afford to pay the defense attorneys, can she?
FULGINITI: Well, I don`t know. Is he doing it pro bono? I presume if he is getting paid, it`s going to come out in cross-examination.
PINSKY: Oh my goodness. What do you say here? Katie, you want to say something?
WICK: Yes, Dr. Drew, just real fast. I know you`ve got to run, but I wanted to mention something -- Stacey said that the jury was taking a lot of notes today. I noticed something that I saw all of the notes come while Jennifer Wilmot was questioning the doctor. I didn`t see any notes really going into the box when Juan Martinez was.
And I just -- I`m thinking, is that good for the defense, good for the prosecution? Because it seems that they have the majority of their questions, if not most of them are, indeed, when the defense is questioning the doctor.
PINSKY: We`ll find out what those questions are when we get to the jury questioning of the witness. Thank you, ladies.
Next up, the Steubenville rape case verdict. I need to comment about what this has meant for the victim. I`ve been yelling about this since we first heard about this case. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti and Attorney Lauren Lake. You guys, listen. Two teen boys convicted. I think everyone knows the story. From the beginning, i have said that young woman whom they raped and trotted around and the other young males expressed glee at what they were doing, she was not well.
She should have been protected rather than taken advantage of. I don`t think enough can be made of A, the victim, Lauren, and how egregiously the young males behaved. You agree with me?
LAKE: Absolutely. And this judge sent a mighty message today that young people, parents, society at large, we need to get a grip on the casual feel that we are giving toward sex at all times --
LAKE: -- in our TV shows, in our communities.
LAKE: It`s not casual. And also, young men need to understand to respect young women.
LAKE: -- and protect young women. And finally, that all of your tweets and your social media is not just gossip. It could be gathering evidence against you that will send you directly to jail.
PINSKY: Well said. Well said.
FULGINITI: Bravo, too.
PINSKY: Yes, Mary, that`s exactly my point. I`m so glad Lauren said that. Those are very much exactly my feelings about this as well.
FULGINITI: No, absolutely. I mean, look at --
PINSKY: What more can be sad?
FULGINITI: What more because these kids are 16 and 17. They know right from wrong. The behavior was reprehensive --
PINSKY: She said, by the way, also, casual about sex, also, casual about alcohol and drugs. That`s really underlying all of this. Thank you, guys.
Tomorrow we`ll show you videotape of Travis Alexander as you`ve never seen him. This is -- he`s in a lady`s wig. It`s an exclusive. Thank you to everybody for watching. "HLN After Dark" is next when they mock-up of the scene of the killing built especially for them. It starts now.