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Expert Still on Stand; Juan Vs. Witness

Aired March 19, 2013 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Good evening. You are not missing a second of testimony. My co-host this week is former defense attorney and prosecutor, Mary Fulginiti.

I also have forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.

Also the woman I call the human lie detector, Janine Driver. She`s the author of "You Can`t Lie to Me".

But before we get to my great panel, we`re going to go back to the trial. So, let`s push the play button and get this thing under way here, guys, and finish this trial up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And after she ran into the bathroom, what did she tell you? Do you remember?



SAMUELS: To be specific about that.

She turned around and pointed the gun at him. But he did not stop.


Did she talk to you about the gun itself, whether, with regard to whether it was loaded or not?

SAMUELS: She was not sure whether it was loaded or not. Again, it seems as if her goal was to show the gun to get him to stop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Is that based on all the things that she told you?

SAMUELS: Yes. She indicated she had never fired a gun before.


And did she say what happens with the gun after she fires it?

SAMUELS: It was drop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How was it dropped?

Do you need to refer to your notes?

SAMUELS: I need to refer to my notes. I don`t want to make any errors here.

He hit her, and then she dropped the gun.


SAMUELS: And that led to the struggle.


Now does it specifically say that there was a struggle? And go ahead --

SAMUELS: Not in this particular note, but they wrestled on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And do you recall whether or not how she was able to get away?

SAMUELS: She managed to get up and started running down the hall.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And with regard to this particular note, is this where, does she discuss him being a wrestler?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she talk to you about some of the things that Travis said to her?

SAMUELS: Well, yes. He was very angry. He called her names and threatened to kill her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you remember the specific quote about his threat to kill her?

SAMUELS: I`d like to be able to read that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure. It`s on the second to the last page.


He said, "I`m going to F-ing kill you, bitch."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it`s not F-ing, right? Did she use the F --

SAMUELS: She used the real word.


Have a good day.

JUDGE: All right, ladies and gentlemen, tomorrow, you do not need to be here until 1:00 -- 1:00 tomorrow. Please remember the admonition. You are excused. Have a nice evening.

PINSKY: That`s it for court for today. Prosecutor Juan Martinez took on our amnesia guy for the third day in a row. Jodi Arias had a front row seat for all this. Take a look.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You indicated to me that the defendant told you that there was on the computer, images of women`s breasts, lots of them, right?


MARTINEZ: What if it turns out that there aren`t no images of women`s breasts on the computer? You can see that there`s an inconsistency there. Does that not give you pause while you`re conducting an interview since there are these inconsistencies?

SAMUELS: There are certain inconsistencies that are irrelevant to the case.

MARTINEZ: Even though these inconsistencies are there, you`re saying, I don`t -- it doesn`t matter to me in my evaluation.

SAMUELS: Whether or not there were pictures of breasts on the computer --

MARTINEZ: I`m not asking about that.

SAMUELS: You`re not letting me finish.


MARTINEZ: Judge, it`s non-responsive.

SAMUELS: Since breasts are, pictures of breasts are legal and it did not come up anywhere else in the case, I did not see the need to pursue it any further.

MARTINEZ: Are you done with your answer?

SAMUELS: I`m now completed with my answer.

MARTINEZ: So generally speaking, a person, when you`re conducting these evaluations, they could lie to you about 10, 15, 20, 30, 50 things that you consider irrelevant. She told you that she`d only had anal intercourse with Mr. Alexander, right?

SAMUELS: That`s right.

MARTINEZ: What if she turned out that she had anal intercourse with somebody (INAUDIBLE) and Darrel Brewer (ph), would that be important to you?

SAMUELS: Yes, it was. You`re surprised that I didn`t mention --



MARTINEZ: My question is, you`re telling us that there`s a procedure that you can employ, call add addendum, when something new comes to light in a case so you can have a more complete picture of your opinion, right?


MARTINEZ: She felt helpless and terrified because of these two individuals that had come into Mr. Alexander`s house, right?

SAMUELS: Right. Or something -- it`s possible that the trauma she was referring to was actually because of the killing, but because of the story she constructed, she had to attribute it to this made up story.

MARTINEZ: You don`t know that, do you?

SAMUELS: No, I don`t. I`m speculating.

MARTINEZ: Right. Made it up right now. Speculating.

SAMUELS: No, clinical judgment, sir --


JUDGE: Overruled.

MARTINEZ: Speculating means it could be made up, right?

SAMUELS: Yes. That`s one possibility.

MARTINEZ: A clinical disorder falls between 75 and the 85 is what you previously told me, right?

SAMUELS: That is not right.

MARTINEZ: Well, that`s what you told me before, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection. This mischaracterizes his testimony.

JUDGE: Overruled. You may answer.

SAMUELS: What I`m telling you is that --

MARTINEZ: No. Judge, he`s not being responsive.

SAMUELS: I`m not going to be characterized as giving the wrong information.

MARTINEZ: Do you remember previously telling me that that is an area that indicates a clinical disorder?

SAMUELS: No, I don`t remember saying that. And if I did, I misspoke.

MARTINEZ: So do you have any problems with your memory because this just happened --

SAMUELS: No, I do not have problems with my memory, sir.


PINSKY: All right. We`re back with our panel. And we are, of course, joined by Mark -- I don`t need know G in lasagna -- Eiglarsh from

Mark, I`ll go to you first. How -- is the prosecution, the way he`s been attacking that witness, is he in any way overdoing it, you think?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: I think to some jurors he might be. And let me just say, I love his passion for the case. And I love that he doesn`t trust Jodi Arias or this witness. That`s great.

However, even heavy metal rock bands slow it down with a ballad every now and then. They just take it easy. They vary the tone just a little bit to maximize their effectiveness when they`re rocking out.

So, then, when he goes for the jugular on critical issues, not during the innocuous questions but when he`s going for the jugular, he would have maximum effectiveness. That`s --

MARY FULGINITI, CO-HOST: You know, I got to tell you, Mark, I think I did pull back more than he usually has. I thought we did see --

EIGLARSH: Well, good step.

FULGINITI: Until we got to the speculation. Even I am would (INAUDIBLE), this is incredulous. You`re now basing a conclusion and saying it`s, you know, completely speculative.

PINSKY: And, Janine, you see this guy maneuvering all over the place. What does his language tell you? Is he actually flipping into sort of a lying kind of a state? I don`t want to accuse him of lying, but is he getting near those kinds of distortions?

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: You know, it`s interesting to watch the amnesia guy, because Juan Martinez is getting under his skin, Dr. Drew. We see at one point in this last clip, he`s like leaning forward like that`s not what I said, in this fighting map`s pose as he`s leaning forward. And I definitely think Juan Martinez is getting under his skin.

See how your -- see how the amnesia guy`s sitting right here. He`s got his right hand in a fist. He`s got his other hand -- how do you feel when you sit this way?

When it comes to body language, I always say try it on. Feel how you feel in that pose. Do you feel open? Do you feel like you`re a professional with an expert opinion or do you feel angry, irritated? And maybe --

PINSKY: Let`s see the panel, by the way. Everyone put your fist in your hand, feels like you`re getting ready to pound on somebody, does it not?

DRIVER: Yes. This is not how you are on a first date. Listen, if you`re on a first date like this, I`m not going on a second date with you. It`s very defensive.

And this right here is the bull attacking. A bull tucks his head in and leaps forward just before he attacks. We know at body language, I`d much rather see somebody like this, what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about it?

Versus this -- when they tuck their head in and lean forward, this is when their attacks going to be -- he is feeling threatened by Juan Martinez.

PINSKY: Very interesting.

EIGLARSH: Who wouldn`t feel attacked? Who wouldn`t feel attacked?

PINSKY: That`s right, Mark. I get.

EIGLARSH: You know, that`s what he`s doing. I`m doing this, doing whatever.

He feels attacked. He`s a professional. And yes, at times he`s doing a wonderful job, especially when this witness somehow did not think it was significant when Jodi was lying about certain things.



PINKSY: Cheryl, Cheryl, I`m going to go back.

This is one of the biggest mistakes that clinicians make, which is believing their patients. They believe every word. They don`t trust their gut. And this guy made that error from start to finish. Would you agree?

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Would I believe that he got hooked in, hook, line and sinker? This is a man who went out and got a greeting card for her. Basically, I don`t know what section of the Hallmark store this would be in, but where do you go on you`re on trial for murder, don`t let that hurt you in the self esteem, perk up. You know, where does that come from? He got pulled right in.


PINSKY: All right, guys. Thank you.

Next up, I ask the behavior bureau, why did Jodi swipe a folder and sit on it. Look at this, please play the tape. We possibly can.

It`s one of the creepiest little pieces of tape we have on Jodi Arias. There it is. Here she goes. Watch this.

Looking out, mommy, I`m not doing anything. Whoops, and it`s under my seat.

Wow, what the heck was that?

And later, exclusive tape of Travis Alexander performing in a lady`s wig. There he is. What is up with that? The man who knows what that`s all about is here to tell us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a good tape.





PINSKY: All I can say is wow, I`m grad it`s time for the behavior bureau.

Welcome back.

I`m with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti.

Joining the two of us, forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychiatrist Dr. Tracey Marks, and our human lie detector, Janine Driver.

Now, we`ve seen the mirroring between Jodi and her attorney and it`s been intense. But today, it really clobbered us. There they go. She`s dressed alike. The Patty Duke show.

Here we go.

FULGINITI: Dr. Drew, she has morphed into her attorney. What does that tell you about her?

PINSKY: And look at the way they move in the same way. It`s bizarre.

It`s one thing to dress like her. I can understand it`s somebody you feel close to, and people sort of mirror when they feel comfortable with somebody. But to actually get to the point where you`re actually moving, precisely like that person.

I want to go to my panel and ask what you guys think about it. I`ll start with you, Janine.

DRIVER: I think one of the most dangerous decisions people can make at home is mirroring master manipulators and liars. When we mirror other`s behavior, if Jodi`s crying and we mirror her, as viewers at home, or she`s tired, or she`s bored, and she`s angry, when we mirror her, Dr. Drew, we will begin to believe her.

So the people that think she did not premeditate this murder, I don`t blame you, but I blame you after today if you don`t think that this was premeditated, shame on you. Stop mirroring her behavior. You`re putting yourself and your family and your finances in a dangerous situation when you mirror master manipulators.

PINSKY: Tracey, what do you say to this?

DR. TRACEY MARKS, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: I say that the defense team did a great job of hiring a jury consultant to instruct them on how to dress her to give the jury the subliminal message that you can trust her, because look at her lawyer, she looks like her lawyer, once she was looking like the schoolmarm with the glasses and everything. I think that`s what it`s about.


FULGINITI: OK. But I understand you want to get her out of an orange jumpsuit. So, you got to put some clothes on her. But you don`t have to dress her identical to you. You can put her in a dress. You can put her in a blouse, but really?

I mean, it causes us to have all of this conversation and wondering if there really is something with her that`s a little off.

PINSKY: But Tracey is saying sometimes a significant cigar is just a good smoke. Yes, Tracey?

MARKS: I think so, yes. Absolutely.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

Cheryl, how about your opinion?

ARUTT: I don`t know. I think it probably started out that way because yes, they do do consulting for that purpose. But somebody who`s a master manipulator like Jodi has a hollow core inside and takes on the traits of the most important person in her life. And in this case, it`s her attorney.

So, the way that she became like a twin, like a single white female kind of twin --

PINSKY: Chameleon.

ARUTT: -- that`s the really creepy, scary part.

PINSKY: And, again, it`s not just the dressing. It`s the movements that are almost in unison.

But let`s look at some other stuff. We have some video of doing -- there`s that video again. Jodi doing some crazy stuff. I want you guys to help me understand this.

Now, we have her picking through trash and I was thinking, Janine, when you said don`t mirror her, that no one, if they`re being sort of pulled over by cops don`t do a headstand. We see her -- with her doing this, we her stealing a -- looks like she was stealing something. A shoplifter I would say, oh, there are some security footage here of somebody shoplifting. You don`t make much of that?

DRIVER: I think she`s trying to coyly grab some notes and not be some --

PINSKY: And put it under her cushion.

And now, we`re picking through trash, oh, there she goes with the Jodi cam. She`s putting the folder under -- what is she doing with that?

It`s one of the weirdest -- Janine, go ahead. Janine --

DRIVER: Hey, Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: Yes, Janine, go.

DRIVER: She hasn`t had anything back there for a while, so she wanted you know, to take care of some business under that sexually active --

PINSKY: Easy, easy.

All right. Janine, what do you make of the picking in the trash and the headstands and the sort of coy sneaky behavior? What do you think?

DRIVER: This behavior is incredibly odd, as we know. I think it fits her. She`s an odd human being. That`s why there`s talk is there going to be a movie? Is there going to be a TV show?

The bottom line is this -- she loves attention. She is an attention person. We see it with her stealing this yellow notebook out of the courtroom or putting it under her sexually active heiny, her sexually active heiny or lack of sexual active heiny.


DRIVER: Stealing this thing.

This is 18 -- 18 months old babies do this, Dr. Drew. An 18-month-old baby, mothers and fathers know this. They`ll look at you they`ll stare at mom and dad, like Jodi`s doing in court, and then they hide their broccoli underneath the mashed potatoes and they just like you.

PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.

(INAUDIBLE) Tracey, bring us back to reality.

MARKS: Oh, yes. OK. So, here I go with my cigar thing again. I think we know she`s playing a role, and she knows she`s on television. And I think, you know, not the head stand stuff, but the stuff in the court with the sliding stuff while she got her eyes straight forward, I think she`s just not sure where the camera is. So she`s trying to have these slick, sneaky moves while not knowing who`s seeing what. That`s my thought.

PINSKY: She likes the taste of tobacco when she smokes that cigar.

And you go ahead now, Cheryl, tell me what you think.

ARUTT: I think that Dr. Marks is giving her a lot of credit and it`s a kind interpretation. I think -- you know, the viewers may not be able to see all the way in that screen what her left hand is doing, but she`s keeping her really eyes steady, and she`s distracting attention like a magician does with slight of hand, by doing something moving the left hand.

PINSKY: And, Cheryl, to be fair, if we already weren`t so suspicious about this woman, if she wasn`t such a liar and a manipulator to begin with we wouldn`t be making so much of that`s bizarre behaviors. We think they were odd. We`ve tried to understand it.

But we`ve seen so much duplicitous behavior from this woman, you interpret it in the context of what we`ve seen before, Mary. That`s the thing.

FULGINITI: That`s absolutely right. Normally, when you go to a court, you`re coaching your client, the defendant obviously, to have a poker face. Don`t show any reaction. Don`t express to different things.

So, certainly, she`s got a poker face, but I think it goes deeper than that.

PINSKY: All right. Thank you, panel, behavior bureau.

Next up: exclusive video of Travis like you`ve never seen him before.

Plus, the man who introduced Travis to Jodi. He`s here with us exclusively.

And later, is the defense witness going to have to repeat a grade at school, or should he just be flat out expelled? We`re going to give a report card, coming up.



TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: Long distance relationships. In this business, you have an excellent opportunity to travel, see crap. You can go to different places. It`s good to have an old lady in every spot.

Stand up. You`re next, baby.

What`s your name, girl?


ALEXANDER: Rhymes with candy. You are sweet.

I love tall women. I climb all over them.

I will beat you dead, woman. Hit a woman every now and then. Just kidding. Just kidding.

But Las Vegas, they`ve got shows with `hos.

However, warning, you know how they say what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas? That`s true with the exception of Chlamydia. Just trust me on that one.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. And that you were watching was exclusive video of Travis Alexander playing a character in a wig at some sort of business event.

And joining with me is the man who introduced Jodi to Travis, David Hughes. He worked with them both and he was there when Travis portrayed that character at a company function.

So, David, you actually introduced Jodi and Travis. When was that? How did that look when it all first went about? What did Travis see in her?

DAVID HUGHES, INTRODUCED JODI & TRAVIS: Well, it was back at the convention in Las Vegas. It was a business convention there. And I had met Jodi for the first time. I had talked to her several times on the phone with some business calls, but I didn`t meet her until the first time at that Las Vegas Convention.

And then, it was that day that I was introduced Travis to Jodi. And, you know, I knew Travis was single and open to dating around. And so I -- I wanted to introduce him to Jodi at that time. And so they met that day. And then their relationship grew pretty quickly.

PINSKY: And you actually -- be careful what you say in pre-interviews. You actually told one of my producers that Jodi was, quote, "every guy`s fantasy." We`ve heard Abe Abdelhadi talking about how hot and sexually charged she was. It`s so hard to see that now in retrospect.

What did men see in her back then?

HUGHES: Well, I mean, she was a very nice person. When I had met her she was very polite. She had great social graces. And that`s why I introduced her and Travis, just to -- you know, I was impressed. I mean, she was a nice gal.

And I think a lot of people saw that. And as we start to get to know her more later on, we see what a manipulator she can be. But we didn`t know that at first. I mean, we thought highly of her.

PINSKY: And -- go ahead, Mary.

FULGINITI: And did any of her behavior -- I mean, I know in some of the pre-interview stuff, you said that she sort of became sort of bizarre. I mean, how did she go from a great person, seemingly loving and caring, to bizarre?

HUGHES: Well, I mean, she was -- her personality was always very monotone. I mean, there wasn`t a lot of highs and lows. She wasn`t a real passionate person.

Travis was a very passionate person, but she wasn`t. But I -- but let me clarify, you know, Dr. Samuels says on the stand that she has a low self- esteem. I can tell you she does not have a low self-esteem.

PINSKY: I`m going to interrupt you.

HUGHES: She`s one of the most confident people I`ve --

PINSKY: I get it. I`m going to interrupt because I`ve got to go to a break. But I want to pick up right there, why that dichotomy between the evaluator saying this woman has low self esteem and your perception of her and I guess all the men`s perception that his was somebody who is provocative with high self esteem.

Next up, more of that exclusive video of Travis. Some of it is a little troubling also. So, we`ll discuss it.

And later, I`ll ask my jury if the expert witness has derailed the defense.

Back after this.






ALEXANDER: Ladies and gentlemen, I`m excited to be here this morning. I`ve got some good crap to talk about.


ALEXANDER: Can we keep it real? My name is Eddie Snedell (ph). I`ve been in the business for five years. Where is my notes? Speaking of got some good crap to talk about. Where we at? Are we ready to start the revolution?




ALEXANDER: You know how I get all these associates? I`ll give you two reasons.


ALEXANDER: And maybe two more. We`ll just stop right there.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: That was more of our exclusive, never before seen video of Travis Alexander, and just a reminder, all that potential, all that life snuffed and slaughtered by a woman on trial. Back with my co- host, Mary Fulginiti.

David, I`m going to go back to you. Now, before the break, we talked about her having had high self-esteem. We heard on the stand, Dr. Samuels saying she had low self-esteem. What did you see?

DAVID HUGHES, INTRODUCED JODI & TRAVIS: Absolutely, she had a high self- esteem. She was one of the most confident people I`ve ever met. And to give you an example, she would walk up to the most influential people in the company and ask for their autograph, ask for their picture. That`s not someone who has a low self-esteem.

PINSKY: I also understand she was sort of sexually manipulative. Again, I saw on your pre-interview that she manipulated like a janitor or something sexually in order to get into a particular building. Is that right?

HUGHES: Well, i don`t think she did anything that was like, I mean, she wasn`t very vocal about it, but I think she knew that she had a way.

PINSKY: All right. Let`s take a look at more of the tape. Again, this has never before seen footage. And a reminder, Travis is playing a character here. He`s talking about money and success. And reminder, this is a life -- first of all, I want to say to the family, in this conversation that I -- our hearts continue to go out.

It must be heartbreaking to see all this old footage. I hope this isn`t exacerbating wounds that must be almost intolerable such as it is. We want to understand Travis. We want to know him. We`re going to look at this tape.


ALEXANDER: Fact. Most people in this business are broke. And if they aren`t, well, screw you.


ALEXANDER: Hey, Darnell, can you do my conference call? He was like I`m not going to do your conference call --


ALEXANDER: Because you have a mullet. I said, you got a big house. You don`t have to be jealous. We all got a good stuff. We`re going to talk about --


ALEXANDER: Now why are we calling (INAUDIBLE).


ALEXANDER: -- so we might as well just leave it at their level, right? Number two --


ALEXANDER: Successful people do absolutely nothing.


ALEXANDER: Because they expect people to do it for them.



PINSKY: Again, Travis playing a character. I`m back with my panel. Mark, you wanted to make a comment?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. First of all, thanks to the producers for sending me this. I watched it today, the full 15 minutes. And I was very saddened right away.


EIGLARSH: We saw a side of him playing this character of Eddie Snell. He`s brilliant. His comedic timing is extraordinary. He slays (ph). I mean, every three seconds, this audience is pouring with laughter. And you know what, my sadness immediately turned to anger because she, by her own admission, killed him.


EIGLARSH: And now, she`s trashing him. And the side of Travis I know in part or in large part is because of what she`s portraying him as. This video showed me a whole different side of him.

PINSKY: That`s right, that`s right. David, tell us about this video and what was happening here. What was the event, what was he doing? Why that character? Fill it in for us.

HUGHES: Well, i got a comment. Mark, I totally agree with what you just said, because not only did she murder him once. Now, she`s murdered him twice on the stand.


HUGHES: And it really is sad, because let me tell you how this whole thing came about. When we put this event together, we had asked Travis to play this character of Eddie Snell as a fictitious character, somebody who just supposed to be a motivational speaker, you know? He`s supposed to like Chris Farley in "Saturday Night Live," living in a van down by the river.

And that`s kind of the idea that we gave him. And obviously, everything is twisted where it`s not motivational necessarily. It`s from a negative side, but that`s what was so funny about this video is it was everything not Travis.

PINSKY: Right.

HUGHES: It was a character that he was playing, Eddie Snell, and you know, he was a guy who had a massive ego and thought he was a womanizer, thought he was God`s gift to women. I mean, this is who Eddie Snell was, and he played the part so brilliantly. And we were laughing just busting the stitches (ph). And so, every time I watch that video, I just -- I`m just reminded of how funny of a person Travis was.

MARY FULGINITI, ATTORNEY: You know, I think that`s such a good point to make. But Drew, I think other people and other viewers watching this who don`t really realize that he is playing a character because it`s a little bit rude and crude, and in appropriate times, might view him in a negative light after watching that.

PINSKY: Yes. Absolutely. And that is certainly not our intent. And I would say, this is going to sound corny, but listen with your heart, because when you see all that life gone to waste. And David, I think you`ll agree with me on this, and I know Mark you`ve just said the same thing, it immediately makes you feel sad. This is a young --


PINSKY: Go ahead, Janie. Then, we got to wrap it up.

DRIVER: I did comedy in my 20s. And I got to tell you, when the D.C. sniper case happened around here, I lived in D.C. and Virginia, I was so nervous that a comedy tape I did in my 20s in New York City, I used to open for Chris Rock and Robin Williams, I was nervous that this would go out in the scene if I got hit by the D.C. sniper.

I begged my parents, hide all my videos. Don`t take this out of context. This is an art that what he did and the posing is impeccable. The jokes are hysterical. To watch the whole thing is quite amazing. And I love his family. I hug them all. And my heart goes out to them. This is an amazing man. I agree with Mark.

PINSKY: OK, guys. David, I want to thank you so much for bringing this video and bringing the commentary. I really feel like we touch something we have not -- Mark, I think you`d agree with me -- we touch something we have not yet touched about Travis, and that is important to keep in mind. If i can`t show you the horrible action she took, at least, I can show you the life she snuffed out.

Thank you, David. Next up, the defense`s expert took another beating today from the prosecution. We`ll give him a grade.

And later, my jurors will tell us just how uncomfortable it got in the courtroom today as the heat was turned up on this witness. You`re looking at right here, and we`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knowing, you just said knowing that this was a lie, you used it and then concluded that those scores on that PTS confirmed the presence of ptsd even though you`ve just now told us that this is based on a lie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Perhaps, I should have re-administered that test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t know that, do you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, i don`t. I`m speculating.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Made it up right now. Speculating.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, clinical judgment, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you done with your answer?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am done (ph) completely with my answer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, my question was something else. Sir, you just used the word speculating, didn`t you? You didn`t see any other inconsistencies in this case? Is that what you just said?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were inconsistencies in the case. I can`t answer that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You still feel that there is no need to mention it, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was my judgment call not to include it.


PINSKY: And it`s trial report card time. Back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. And tonight, we are grading the defense`s expert witness. Handing out the grades, forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and our human lie detector -- comedian, we just found out, Janine Driver.


FULGINITI: We want to see those tapes, Janine.

DRIVER: No. No tapes.

PINSKY: So, is Dr. Samuels failing his client? Everybody hold your grades until I ask for them. And one of the things I want to frame this conversation a little bit. Mind you, he has spent three days on the stand, trying to prove that this woman had PTSD as an explanation for her memory lapse, for the fog, Mark, you`ll appreciate the fog. Why the fog occurred?


PINSKY: Not what effect the traumas had on her, why their relationship was so steamy, why she would kill a guy? We know nothing of else about this case except three days trying to potentially hypothesize about a fog. Mark, what do you say?

EIGLARSH: I say that if there`s any one that somehow is buying this and somehow wants to find her not guilty -- and I find that that just hard to envision -- they could use his fight or flight discussion to help justify it. However, his dismissal of her lies and the whole concept that garbage in, garbage out, he dismisses that so readily, his position at times has left me as confused as a homeless person on house arrest.

FULGINITI: Where do you get these things, Mark?

PINSKY: Or as useless as the G in lasagna.

EIGLARSH: Very confusing.

PINSKY: Yes. Very confusing. Janine, what say you?

DRIVER: I worked as an investigator for ATF for 16 1/2 years and we had to understand the power of fight or flight. Why? Because, if you ever went to go get a gun or shoot a gun, you have to understand, your brood is rushing to your large body parts, your arms to fight and your legs to run. And that when people hold a gun and they`re under fight or flight, they`re shaking. They often can`t even put their finger on the trigger.

So, it`s all about large muscle mass. If, in fact, she was under fight or flight because Travis is chasing her, how could she get up, happens to grab the gun with ease, gets it, pulls the trigger? I don`t buy t and I don`t think he`s doing a great job for the defense. I say Jodi had no fear. She had the gun. She killed him in cold-blooded murder.

PINSKY: Interesting. And that we`ve learned over and over that you lose fine motor movement during extreme stress.

DRIVER: Right.

PINSKY: Cheryl, your opinion?

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew, ethics and boundaries. That`s my big problem with Dr. Samuels. This doctor got up on the stand and took an oath to tell the truth and then put forth a diagnosis that was based on information that he knew was a lie. I have an enormous problem with that.

He seems to be making up his own rules about what`s ethical and what isn`t as he goes along. And I`m actually really kind of shocked that he would cut corners the way that he did and approach so casually and in such an unprepared way for a murder trial that`s a death penalty case. If I were the defense team, I`d be very, very upset.

PINSKY: Before we give grades, let`s try to get a grade from a caller. Michelle in Pennsylvania.

MICHELLE, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I would love to give him a big fat F fraudulent and fumbling on that stand.

PINSKY: Thank you, Michelle. We`ll start out with an F. Now, let`s have my panel give the grades. Mark, your grade.

EIGLARSH: Well, C+. He made me understand what the hippocampus is. You know, that`s interesting.

ARUTT: But he called it the hypothalamus at one point.

PINSKY: Cheryl, what`s your grade for the witness today despite of confusing hypothalamus and hippocampus?

ARUTT: I`m so disappointed in Dr. Samuels. He`s making forensic psychologists look bad. I`m going to give him an F.

PINSKY: Janine, your grade.


DRIVER: I give him a D-. The only reason I don`t give him an F is because he showed up in a suit and tie, but something tells me underneath that suit is a T-shirt that says, "I love you Jodi Arias." But, I`m only speculating.

PINSKY: I guess, you are --

DRIVER: I`m only speculating.

PINSKY: Mary, your grade.

FULGINITI: Oh, you know, I`ve got to give him a C+, too. You know, fairly, it`s a dichotomy (ph) when he`s on. Direct examination is sort of clear and concise, but on cross, he fumbles, crumbles, and today made some pretty damaging admissions.

PINSKY: I think some of the things -- I`m agreeing with everybody, Cheryl, you particularly. However, I do like his conversant-style with the jury. So, I`m going to raise his grade to a C-. I`ll give him a C-.


PINSKY: I`m with you. I`m with you on all that. Thank you to my great panel.

DRIVER: You`re a giver, Dr. Drew. You`re a giver.

PINSKY: I know. I`m easy. I`m softy. All right. Guys, thank you. And a reminder, "HLN After Dark" follows this program. They have all the news of the day from the Jodi Arias trial.

Next up, my jurors, did the intense cross-examination or cross of the witness today make you guys uncomfortable? You`re going to tell us about that. And I want to hear about from a young man over there on our right about people on death row watching this case. Be right back after the break.


PINSKY: It is time for Drew`s jury. Joining me and my co-host this week, Mary Fulginiti. And joining us from Arizona, Katie Wick, who is a regular on our show now, and Dave Lewis, a first-timer. OK. Dave, you actually work, I understand, led to believe in any event with Arizona inmates on death row. A, is that true, and B, are they following this case, and C, if so, what do they think?

DAVE LEWIS, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, Drew, you know, I do work for the Department of Corrections. I do work with a lot of inmates that are actually incarcerated in Arizona of that (ph). I don`t work currently on death row, but I do work with a lot of inmates that are incarcerated for life with no possibility of parole for first-degree murder and --

PINSKY: Are they watching this case?

LEWIS: They are watching a lot of it. They are seeing most of some of the stuff that are just brief, you know, snapshots here and there of testimonies and stuff that`s on the news.

PINSKY: And what do they think?

LEWIS: -- been talking to a lot -- talking to a lot of them, Drew. They think that she`s going to get just second-degree maybe with a flat 25 and maybe possibly a parole.


LEWIS: They don`t think that Arizona State will give her the death row penalty at all. They think Arizona state is very hesitant about giving a woman death row.

PINSKY: Mary, you agree?

FULGINITI: Yes. You know, I think that`s right. I think it`s going to probably be a problem potentially giving her death, I think. She`s a woman. I think people feel more sympathy when it comes to death and not giving a woman that and giving it to a man.

PINSKY: Katie, are the jurors wear and out? I mean, this has been a lot of tedium. Are they jurors still engaged?

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh my gosh, no. Today was the first day I saw them the worst, Dr. Drew, that I`ve ever seen them. One guy that`s usually taking notes had his head in his hands. There were no questions submitted into the jury box when Juan Martinez was speaking. However, when Jennifer Wilmot went up, there were various papers put in there.

But, they`re so done. I can just feel it. And we thought -- we -- a lot of us actually checked out ourselves, unfortunately, the last 30 minutes of trial today. No, I think they`re absolutely done. This is ridiculous.

PINSKY: All right --

WICK: And Jennifer Wilmot, we thought, would probably try to -- she`s speeding things along. She`s better than -- because she`s speeding things along, but she`s being very, very repetitive and the jury is not -- they`re not into this anymore. They`re not having it.

PINSKY: All right. Let`s see what our viewers think. Melissa in Tennessee, you`ve got a question for my jury?

MELISSA IN TENNESSEE: Yes, Dr. Drew. I just want to ask your jury if they saw Travis Alexander`s brother smile for the very first time when Juan Martinez was letting Dr. Samuels have it.

PINSKY: You know what, Melissa, I saw that moment, too. You know, we`re talking about Katie, did you see that?

WICK: Yes. It`s so good. I just spoke with the family just briefly, not about anything, but they seemed to be in good spirits. And I did see that. And it`s so good to finally see the family feel as if one, Travis`s voice is being represented in the courtroom by Juan Martinez. It`s great. And I know that tomorrow, court doesn`t start until the afternoon.

But I know the next couple weeks that they`re going to have another expert witness come in. And I know Juan Martinez is doing -- he`s doing the best he can do. He`s doing a great job. And I know the family feels that Travis is being vindicated by Juan Martinez and it`s great to see.

PINSKY: And Dave, let me ask you, what motivated you to come to the courtroom today?

LEWIS: You know what, Drew, I just wanted to see this kind of like in person, you know? I deal with incarcerated inmates all the time and hear their stories. I never get a chance to see it in person and I wanted to kind of see, you know, what a murderer like Jodi is doing in trial? What are her reactions is? You know, she just has no soul there, Drew.

I mean, she turned around today and I`ve seen her just looked like she was just pretty much, hate to say it, but dead. She just didn`t look good at all. You know she`s worn, she`s tired. She knows she`s going to have it. And that`s just the bottom line. And Martinez is just giving down. He`s on fire. He never lets up. And he just keeps going and going and going. And he will not stop till the very last day.

WICK: And would somebody please give Dr. Samuels an accordion folder or something to put his notes in or if he even has notes?


WICK: We thought he would be coming to class prepared today and he didn`t. And no notes on the accusations of Travis masturbating to the photo of the little boy? Is that not somewhat important to the defense in this case?

PINSKY: All right. Guys, thank you --

WICK: You think he would have learned.

PINSKY: Listen, we`re with you, guys. Thank you, guys. I`ve got to take another quick break and I`ll be back with Mary. We`ll have some thoughts on old Lindsey Lohan and her recent day in court. Be right back.


PINSKY: OK. Just very quickly on Lindsey Lohan. Thank God, a judge finally subjected her to mandatory treatment. This could save her life. They have 90 days, at least. She has to meet the criteria of a medical director before she`d be discharged. Thank you, Judge Dabney for actually doing that.

But, Mary and I got into a conflict -- there`s Lindsey going off after court -- conflict about Jodi. And I want to finish this up real quick. I say it`s inter-partner terrorism that he was the battered man. She was using sex for power and control. And when he decided to leave, when he cut her off, that`s when she snapped.

FULGINITI: Oh, I see. OK. I think you`re taking a little too far. I see this as lovesick child, really --


FULGINITI: -- in this relationship.

PINSKY: Oh, and a murdering lovesick child.

FULGINITI: Head over heels in love with her. She used sex, I think, to lure him in, to desperately --


FULGINITI: But then when she felt jilted, used, and then cheated on, and I think that is when she snapped.

PINSKY: That`s OK to slaughter a guy? We`re going to continue this conversation tomorrow night. Thanks, Mary. Watching "HLN After Dark," it begins right now. Mary and I back tomorrow. See you then.