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Jodi`s Amnesia Defense
Aired March 21, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, lady in red. Blood red. Is Jodi Arias a girl gone wild.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT (singing): Oh, holy night --
PINSKY: Did she know she was caught on tape? Did she want the world to witness this?
ARIAS: It`s going to be in the news tonight (ph)?
PINSKY: The jury won`t see what we`ve got on our hand, but you will.
ARIAS: Has his family called today?
Are you going to tell them?
PINSKY: Plus, hear from the victim`s family, suffering in silence until now.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Thank you, Nancy.
And good evening everybody.
My co-host this week, former prosecutor and attorney, Mary Fulginiti. A reminder that if you missed anything today, we`re going to be giving you the highlights. So, we`re going to get all over this case today and you`re going to see every minute of the controversial material.
Now, Jodi`s amnesia guy took questions from the jury, something, Mary, that only happens in four states in this country. It`s a little peek into how the judicial system works in Arizona.
They sounded a lot like prosecutors themselves. Take a look.
RICHARD SAMUELS, PH.D., DEFENSE EXPERT WITNESS: The diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder is not a get out of jail free diagnosis. It`s simply a statement that describes her emotional state at the time the evaluation occurred.
The crash of the meteorite in Arizona maybe 150,000 years ago I believe was the actual, the equivalent of the acute stress disorder. No. You can`t. You have to go back and explore as much information as you can. If I had a way of telling whether someone was lying, my job would be a lot easier.
JUDGE: You said transient global amnesia can be caused by sexual intercourse, immersion in hot or cold water and other things. Is the list you presented all inclusive, or could it also be caused by something such as the trauma associated with getting a bad haircut, for example?
SAMUELS: I would say that`s unlikely.
JUDGE: Is Ms. Arias taking medication to treat this terrible PTSD disorder?
SAMUELS: She has been taking -- at various times, she was on a tranquilizer, was on an antidepressant. The reason that I know that she was on this medication is that she actually told me she was involved.
JUDGE: Regarding the tremors or shakes you witnessed with Jodi, how can you tell it is caused by PTSD or memories rather than fear for herself and her future, fear of being found guilty?
Do you always develop such a fond relationship with the individuals you evaluate?
You mentioned a phone call between Jodi and her mom. Can you explain what happened on that call?
SAMUELS: She described it as a venting of her anger towards her mother. Her creation of the story is satisfied the need to put an emotional distance between the horrors of that day and her previous belief system of being a peace-loving individual.
JUDGE: Is it possible that Jodi didn`t write negative things about Travis because there was nothing negative to write?
SAMUELS: While she didn`t write about these things it in her journal that was consistent with her style of glossing over difficult times with Travis.
PINSKY: Joining us to discuss this peace-loving, slaughtering individual, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, attorney Anne Bremner, and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
All right. So here`s what I want to do. I want to play the role of an expert witness. I`ve got three lawyers on my team today who can have at me. I`m going to have Cheryl as my lifeline to back me up if I need help.
I`m going to Mary. You first. What questions do you have?
FULGINITI: Thank goodness. I want to hear really what the prosecution expert would say if he got on the stand.
Is there any reality to anything this witness is saying about any of these disorders? Within the confines of the facts of this case, does she have post-traumatic stress disorder? Is there anything about disassociated amnesia that makes sense?
PINSKY: Based on all the evidence presented so far, no way any one can make that conclusion. Impossible.
FULGINITI: So, impossible for her to have PTSD.
PINSKY: No. It`s impossible to make a conclusion about it.
PINSKY: It`s not likely she has PTSD, because people who have PTSD have previous severe trauma. And, by the way, they aren`t people who plan a murder.
FULGINITI: OK. What about dissociative amnesia?
PINSKY: She may be dissociative. That`s possible. That`s what I first thought when I heard this case. She must be dissociative, not a single shred has gone down that path. And I was stunned in fact --
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: I want in.
PINSKY: Mark, you`re right next. But I was stunned in fact that the defense never -- they never went down that path at all.
Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Isn`t it a fact that if someone lies throughout the interview process, then the conclusions reached will be faulty?
PINSKY: Absolutely. And not only that, we do have ways to tell whether our patients are lying or not.
Cheryl, back me up on this. I deal with lying, obfuscating patients all day, and my specific job is to try to figure out what`s true and what isn`t.
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right, Dr. Drew. There are special ways of us figuring out whether they`re telling the truth.
Could you say some of the ways that we look for that?
PINSKY: Well, I don`t -- listen, it would take too long to get all the details, but I can tell you what. I listen to my own body`s reaction to this. And that goes to one of the issues this guy falls on his face with, which is his boundary issues. If you don`t have good boundaries it`s impossible to interpret your own reactions to a difficult, manipulative patient.
Anne, do you have a question?
I can`t hear Anne.
ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY: -- a true case of self-defense where someone`s been --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Anne. I`m sorry I interrupted. Now, I hear you.
BREMNER: Somebody`s been stabbed.
Can you hear me now?
PINSKY: I do. Got you. Go ahead.
BREMNER: OK. Where someone`s been stabbed, OK, thank you.
Where someone`s -- have you ever heard of a case of self-defense where someone`s been stabbed 29 times, mostly back, you know, front, throat slit, and shot in the head? I mean, has there been any true case of self-defense like that documented anywhere in the world?
PINSKY: That`s more of a legal question, have to look into that. But it times excessive for self-defense.
PINSKY: Mark, you had a follow on?
EIGLARSH: Yes. You`ve watched the 48 hours interview. You`ve seen that she`s lied numerous times. There`s no way that you can conclusively say that she is telling the truth. Isn`t that correct?
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, what is disassociation?
PINSKY: Disassociation is, if you`ve ever been a severe situation like a car accident and you feel like things are sort of in a dream, or maybe if you feel like you`re looking at things from a tunnel, or you might even feel like you`re out of your own body, that can be a normal reaction. But people at that are severely traumatized in childhood that becomes a chronic, recurrent phenomenon. And what they`re stressed again in their adult life, it can come back very severely.
We`ve heard none of that.
Anybody else want to have at me before I wrap this up?
PINSKY: Mark, go.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Yes.
OK, one conclusion that you made was that she had post-traumatic stress disorder. But another conclusion that you can also reach is that she`s malingering. That`s faking and saying that she has certain symptoms, lying to you which would be consistent with someone just making it up, isn`t that correct?
PINSKY: That is absolutely correct. And not only that, as you mention, Mark, this is a documented liar. If I went in to do an evaluation on this patient, I -- my first assumption, my very assumption in the evaluation would be that every word was a lie.
And then I would try to figure out what was going on. And if I found myself liking this patient, I would have to interpret what that was, because I shouldn`t like a murderer, a lying murderer.
EIGLARSH: And then, you`d give them a book, right?
PINSKY: Then I would give them --
ARUTT: What about secondary gain?
PINSKY: Well, we`re going -- time is up.
I got the very book here that he gave her. And I must tell you, I`ll get back to it after the break perhaps. But I was stunned. I don`t see how that book is going to help her at all.
A lying murderer, and you go in and you believe and you document and you, she -- got to take a break.
Thank you, guys. Those are great questions.
Next up, the "Behavior Bureau", they will tackle Jodi`s bizarre antics during the police interrogation such as this behavior here. And, of course, there was the famous headstand. We hear about from the body expert what that headstand meant.
And later, we`re going to focus on Travis` family. Hear from them what they say about the woman who killed their family member.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETECTIVE: I think you`re feeling the reality in the moment now.
ARIAS: No. I`m just feeling all of the things that I`m going to potentially miss out on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m crying because I might miss out on some things.
It`s time for the "Behavior Bureau." I wonder what Travis is missing out on.
Back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti.
Joining us for the panel, forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, behavior expert Patti Wood, author of "Snap: Making the Most of First Impressions", and psychologist Wendy Walsh.
Jodi Arias, interrogated for the butchering of Travis Alexander. And she is sobering -- excuse me, sobbing, I want to say slobbering. That was sobbing -- sobbing to a point that she`s slobbering, about the things that she`s going to miss out on.
Cheryl, please, help me out here.
ARUTT: Well, her concern is about herself. And that speaks to her narcissism and it also speaks to the sociopathic bit I think. She`s concerned about what she`s going to miss. She`s not feeling guilty about what she did to Travis.
PINSKY: Going around the horn. Wendy, I agree with Cheryl. And the fact is, I don`t think she understands how a normal person would react to these kinds of situations.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I think so. And she`s also using her favorite manipulative tactic, get compassion from somebody. Try to get people to empathize with her.
And in some cases it`s sexually and some cases it`s tears. And in this case, she chose tears.
FULGINITI: But, Patti, are those tears real or are they fake?
PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Fake. And think about it this way. An innocent person doesn`t hide their tears. They want you to know they`re innocent. They want to show you. They lean forward. They show themselves.
Her timing of those tears is always dramatic. It`s always when she`s cornered. It`s always when she`s not sure she`s doing the right thing to fool you, so she covers up with strong emotions, tears.
PINSKY: And, Patti, before the show you told us you had some strong feelings about the famous headstand. We`re sort of looking at her going into that
PINSKY: Tell us what that meant, in your opinion.
WOOD: Actually, that`s stretching and relaxing out, that`s defiance. That`s strong defiance.
You don`t see that in an interrogation room. People are fearful. Their bodies are frozen and tense, not relaxed and stretched out.
It`s so dramatic that she has that energy and relaxation to expand her body out and not protect.
PINSKY: So a head stand is sort of a defiant move.
FULGINITI: That`s amazing. What does that tell you about her state of mind, guys, if she`s acting defiantly in the interrogation room?
PINSKY: I keep saying this, but many people who may not know what I`m talking about, but I check out the movie "Chicago".
FULGINITI: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: The plot of that film is exactly Jodi Arias` case. She believes he had it coming. She believes that.
Now, Jodi`s bizarre behavior on tapes doesn`t stop. We have more. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Is there any way I can see some of those photos?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you do with them if you could see them?
ARIAS: Just look at them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think it would help you?
ARIAS: I don`t know if it would help me or -- I don`t know. Maybe. Maybe it would. I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Cheryl, I guess the simple question is why she would want to see crime scene photos. It`s just disgusting.
But I have a different thing I`m thinking right now.
ARUTT: What`s that?
PINSKY: Remember the first moment she was on the stand and the defense attorney said did you kill him, yes, why? The simple answer is I was defending myself or defense. The posture she took in that moment to me reminds me of these yoga moves, strangely in my head. Why am I getting that connection?
ARUTT: Well, you`re doing that because of the defiance as well. The simple answer may be that. But what was the true answer?
The simple answer that that, that couching it as the simple answer is a very deceptive kind of thing. And I know why she wants to see the crime scene photos. She wants to see what the evidence shows --
FULGINITI: Of course.
ARUTT: -- to assist her in confabulating a story that might match what they have on her.
PINSKY: Patti, I just saw you do a touchdown dance. What do got to say?
WOOD: Yes, absolutely. And how she handles it, she wants to look at it very carefully. She doesn`t want to lie about something that`s very evident in the photos.
FULGINITI: That is so interesting, Patti. You know, I think -- tell me, too, her smirks and giggles in between, what does that tell you?
WOOD: Yes, it`s actually called doper`s delight. She can`t help herself. When she feels like she`s pulling something over on you during the trial, on the witness stand, actually, they get so much glee from fooling you they smile about it. And, boy, does that disturb us?
WOOD: Everything -- everything in the trial.
PINSKY: Wendy, go ahead.
WALSH: It`s also her manipulative tactic again. In between these shows of emotion wanting to have compassion, there`s also this flirtatiousness that she can pull up when she needs to.
But entirely agree. She`s a very smart girl. You can still be crazy and be smart. And she wants to see those crime scene photos so she can figure out what her story`s going to be. She needs to know what they have on her.
PINSKY: Glee in a moment of manipulation and defiance is a devilish characteristic, guys -- glee, think about it.
Next up, a first for the "Behavior Bureau" -- we`re adding a guy, this guy. And did Jodi flip the bird in open court.
And later, we`re going to hear from Travis` family who has been suffering in silence every day. We`re going to hear their words after -- in a few minutes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Can you take my handcuffs off?
ARIAS: Can you get my purse?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you feel better.
ARIAS: Can you turn the heat up in here? Or do you have a sweater I can borrow or something?
This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am, but before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re going to take in for what you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: She said it herself, how shallow, how empty I am.
Back with my "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host Mary Fulginiti.
Mary, I`ve got a great Twitter. You asked about dissociative amnesia. This is from, somebody has called herself @iloveoubox28 (ph). "I have dissociative amnesia in a car roll over accident, but I remember how it felt briefly. I remember during, it was a brief thug. My son was ejected." It`s awful. What`s frightening -- he`s fine, but still.
The point being it`s usually kind of spotty. This idea of conveniently is a little bit convenient.
Please follow us on Twitter @DrDrewHLN, and like us on Facebook at Facebook.com/DrDrewHLN.
And now for the first time, I`m adding a Y chromosome to the behavior panel, Mark Eiglarsh.
Mark, lots of requests from what does that say, that being questioned for murder. I don`t understand what that means. But let me ask you something. She`s in the room asking for -- that`s what I`m asking.
I`ve got a lot of requests in that room. She wants a sweater. And she says I`m so empty, I`m so shallow. I think she got it right there.
EIGLARSH: Yes, there`s no question she`s shallow, but I`m not harsh on her for that. It`s like being upset with like Charles Manson for smoking pot. It`s a minor issue compared to what she did here.
EIGLARSH: Look at the crime scene photos. I`m not too harsh on her for whatever she did. Let her do handstands. Let her do tumblesaults. She killed a man and claims she doesn`t remember it. Enough.
PINSKY: And, Patti, you said to Mary and I, something interesting before the show, about why all of us are preoccupied with this woman.
WOOD: Yes, she`s absolutely riveting because our central nervous system is disturbed in the presence of deceit. So, it stresses our body cells. So, we`re absolutely compelled to figure it out. What`s going? What`s going? Our fight or flight response personally -- pre-flight/fight response is engaged so much we have to figure it out.
FULGINITI: Do you think the jury, though, is going to want to figure that out, too, Mark? I mean, because I would think we`re wanting to figure it out. Do you think they`re going to want to figure it out?
EIGLARSH: If they`re focused on that, then someone`s not doing their job. That is not necessarily proof beyond a reasonable doubt of murder. They`ve got enough.
If they`re focusing on that, they`re focusing on the fat on the end of the steak. They need to focus on the crime scene, her ridiculous story, what she did during and after and before.
PINSKY: I`m going to go around the horn, to Wendy and Cheryl to talk about this preoccupation we all have. Again people are talking to me out on the street about this woman. And when I explain to them my thoughts on why I think she is the way she is, they still say, how`s that possible?
Wendy, what do you think?
WALSH: Well, it is absolutely possible. And I do think -- to disagree with Mark -- that the jury is trying to figure out if she`s lying or not, if she believes her stuff or not? Is she crazy or not?
And so, they`re having their own cognitive dissonance between what they see and what they hear.
But going back to her being shallow and asking to clean up a little bit before her picture, you know, I hate to defend Jodi Arias, but we live in a lookism culture. She`s a young girl. I couldn`t imagine any young girl getting their picture taken without wanting to at least see a mirror first. Everybody would do that.
PINSKY: I`ve seen you get ready for a shot, Mark. Would you still want to see a picture after you murdered somebody before your mugshot?
FULGINITI: Look at Mark`s hair.
EIGLARSH: No, I wouldn`t. Let`s go on the record.
But let me respond to Wendy.
She -- I agree with you the jurors are trying to figure her out, but she was on the stand testifying for what, 18 days, like the beginning of the disco crisis? They can`t figure her out yet? They need to know what a headstand means? I don`t think so.
Cheryl, I want to get back to you. I saw you shaking your head, what Patti was talking. We used a very fancy word called cognitive dissonance. When we have this dissonance, and our body goes huh? We`ve got to understand it what`s going on there.
Help people understand why they`re so fascinated.
ARUTT: Well, it`s funny -- our bodies, almost without our conscious awareness can pick up on something being off and something being wrong. And you hear Travis` friends talk about this feeling.
Sometimes when we sit with somebody who`s sociopathic, we sort of feel the hair go up on the back of our neck and we get their sort of physical response that something doesn`t feel right. And I think that`s fascinating for people to notice. And also that when we look at someone who`s capable of such a horrendous crime, we want to imagine, they have kind of, you know, something tattooed on their forehead, that they look really, boldly different.
And I think people are fascinated that this attractive young woman could do something so terrifying.
PINSKY: That`s right. There`s a lesson here. Do not assume that other people`s brains work like yours does. That`s a very important lesson. I hammer my medical students about that all the time.
Now, control room, can you slow the picture of Jodi using the middle finger there? There was something that seemed to disturbed her. She was talking about, watch this. I want you -- ooh, how about that?
This is, we had the, we had to blur it because it seemed so pronounced the way she was doing it. She didn`t like what he was saying. It was a juror question about adrenaline and its levels during a fight or flight response --
EIGLARSH: No. No.
PINSKY: -- versus premeditated murder.
FULGINITI: I agree with Mark. We`re overanalyzing here. A little --
PINSKY: I just like that Patti`s laughing about this. Patti thinks it`s possibly intentional.
WOOD: Yes, it is. It`s a passive aggressive act.
WOOD: Without the blur. That tension in the hand, and she`s not actually resting her hand on it. It`s very unnatural.
PINSKY: OK. Court`s -- at ease everybody. Just a second. Mark, hang on. Hang on. Take a break.
We`re talking about -- next up, Travis Alexander`s family has really suffered in silence. We`ve all had profound, profound empathy of what they`ve been going through. We`ve got some interviews where they tell us what they really think about Jodi, coming up.
And later, my jurors will tell us what happened when somebody apparently overheard making a death threat about Jodi in the courtroom there, right behind her mom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had told me about her one time when I was visiting with him. And I said, is that your girlfriend? She`s pretty. And he said well, we`re dating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t really bring her around our family too much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s when things got a little bit hectic, and he told us that he wasn`t dating her. And he thought that she was following him around. And that`s when she had been caught snooping around and peeking into his windows at his house and slashing his tires and stuff like that.
She went to a memorial for Travis in Arizona and my other sisters seen her there and she wouldn`t look at them in the eye. They`d look at her because we had already had the feeling that she had something to do with it. And she would look away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Travis` family, so sad. Back with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. Just about everyone we`ve heard from gives a similar description of Jodi, including my next guest. Julie Christopher was a close friend of Travis and knew Jodi.
All right. Now, Julie, I wanted to ask you something. There was -- we had some footage of Jodi appearing to sneak a folder off the defense table. There it is. And then, she sort of seats on it. You`ve been in the courtroom and I guess you had some theory as what was going on there. Would you tell us?
JULIE CHRISTOPHER, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: Well, Dr. Drew, you know, my intuition tells me, Dr. Drew, is that she was hiding some type of financial piece. And that`s pure intuition that she might work on something that has -- something has to do with financial piece, related to money, to making money.
PINSKY: So, oh, like she`s trying to make money off of what`s in the folder?
Julie Christopher It might be. Again, my intuition tells me that it has to do with money, and perhaps, has to do with related to making money with that piece of paper or something that --
PINSKY: This is what I wonder about this entire trial, Mary, whether or not people are going to be writing books and making money off of --
MARY FULGINITI, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, other people may be trying to write books but Jodi arias. I mean, they`ve got these things called son of Sam laws, and basically, you can`t profit from your criminal activity.
PINSKY: Son of Sam?
FULGINITI: Son of Sam law. Yes.
PINSKY: The guy who -- was telling to kill people back in the 1960s or 1970 whenever that was. How much is -- I heard this whole thing is costing taxpayers close to a million dollars just for the defense. Is that something she has to recoup?
PINSKY: Do we want her to make money off this so she can pay the state back?
FULGINITI: Yes. You know, unfortunately, no. We don`t want her to make money off of it.
FULGINITI: Public policy is totally anti people making money out of criminal activity here. And, the bottom line is if she wants to sell her rights, she can sell it. But in Arizona, it goes into a state fund. If she`s acquitted, she gets it. If she`s convicted, she`ll never see a penny.
PINSKY: Now, Julie, you also have been sitting there by Travis` family. I mean, some of it has just been excruciating to watch them go through. As you say, you`re very intuitive person, what feelings do you have about Travis` family? We just heard from one of his sisters there in that tape.
His brother is an articulate young male. The other sister we`ve not heard from yet. And she`s been the one almost more emotional than any of them. What are your feelings?
CHRISTOPHER: My feelings are that this tragedy had brought them closer to Travis. And, this is really deep what I`m getting. And it`s really core -- in my core, I`m really getting that this tragedy got them closer to understanding even more Travis how he was.
PINSKY: Well, they certainly have had to be sort of exposed to a lot of aspects of him that they did not know. Mark or Anne, (ph) do you guys have questions for Julie? As someone who knew both Travis and Jodi? Mark?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Julie, bonjour. How are you?
CHRISTOPHER: Bonjour. Yes.
PINSKY: Hey, Mark (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
PINSKY: OK. Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
OK. That`s Russian. But, all right. Julie, can I ask you. Was there -- did you ever know at all Travis to be violent with her or with any one? Is there any truth to this at all? He seems like such a wonderful, peaceful, loving guy. Did you ever see any side of his different?
CHRISTOPHER: Not at all. Not at all. I know Travis for a long time. And I`ve seen him rushing out of events and with a lot of people, men and women, around him. And you know, I`ve seen him stressing about speaking in the front of people, but never once I picked up or saw Travis with anger or just -- he was always the respectful to everybody that was around him, men and women.
And I never seen him distress and -- I`m going to tell you something now that I remember. He was upset once about when Jodi trashed his tires. And that`s the time that he was upset. You know, he went on saying, oh, you know, I`m really upset --
EIGLARSH: It`s just a normal reaction.
PINSKY: Yes. Reasonably so.
CHRISTOPHER: She`s crazy. Yes. I mean, she`s just -- I remember him going she`s just playing crazy. This chick is just plain crazy.
PINSKY: He did not realize exactly how crazy she was. Mary, you have question for her.
FULGINITI: Yes, you know, I was going to ask you if you ever saw any crazy or, you know, problematic or aggressive behavior by Jodi, obviously, slashing tires is definitely that was -- or anything else she did that he thought was, wow, she`s definitely off?
CHRISTOPHER: No. You know, the only thing that I think we all saw is that we never really see them. I never really see them together as a couple. So, that was really odd to me. And that, he shared with me one day, he said, well, you know, this is not the kind of girlfriend I want, because in the conversation I said, well, what about your girlfriend regarding whatever, and he said, oh no, this is not my girlfriend. This is not a kind of girlfriend I want.
CHRISTOPHER: You know, I`m looking for real relationship.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Julie --
PINSKY: Go ahead. Go ahead, Cheryll
ARUTT: I`ve got to ask, you`re intuitive. You`ve been sitting in the courtroom with Travis` family. What is your intuition tell you about the jury and where they are?
CHRISTOPHER: Hoo! I tell you, I speak from my truth, and what I`m getting is that they`re no longer listening to Jodi. I think they`re past beyond the fact that it might be something that we can listen to Jodi and have a doubt, but I think they all kind of came together and realize that she is guilty and not crazy. But I think they`re -- yes, I mean, it`s just -- I think everybody --
PINSKY: OK. Got to take a break. Now, (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE). Next to jury grill the defense witness with questions today. Is he toast? We`ll give the real jurors our grades from our panel.
And later, two courtroom observers were tossed from the courtroom today. What got them in trouble? My jury in the courtroom will tell us after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You review your notes regarding Jodi being tied up by her hands and feet and Travis climaxing as he cut the rope. Was this the day of the killing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: it was one incident on the day of the killing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you believe Ms. Arias` self-esteem was very low early on in her relationship with Travis since this is well before the time period that you evaluated her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, from things that she told me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We continue to look at the highlight`s from today`s court, and it is time for Dr. Drew report card. I`m with my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. Tonight, we grade the jury for the questions that they offered the defense witness. Crystal clear they are paying attention and they don`t want this to end soon.
Richard -- Richard Samuels (ph), Dr. Samuels, actually admitted to open court that he was thrown by the prosecutor. Our graders are Cheryl Arutt, forensic psychologist, Attorney Anne Bremner, and Attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Now, gentleman and ladies, hold your grades until the end of the segment. Mark, the jury asked defense witness, Richard Samuels (ph), how he could believe -- if he believed a liar what does that say about him and how could the jury trust him?
EIGLARSH: OK. First, we have 18 people sitting on that jury. Six are alternates. They can write questions, too. So, we don`t know who`s writing the questions. Now, it`s unlikely that all six of the alternates are the only ones writing the questions, but it`s impossible to say that it`s the jury as a whole who feels a particular way. So, keep that in mind.
But all of the questions as a whole are intelligent, I believe. This was a wonderful batch unlike the last ones with Jodi Arias where they were little bit off phase (ph), but I also loved that they were questioning what they were hearing. Could someone have faked posttraumatic stress disorder?
They`re wondering. They`re not believing everything. And for that, I really think they did a great job with these questions.
ARUTT: I agree with Mark. I think that it shows that the jury is tuned in. They`re engaged. They`re asking a lot of questions about what the meaning of all these lies means in terms of what they can determine from this. So, I would have liked to have seen them ask some more questions.
PINSKY: Oh, don`t worry. That`s coming.
ARUTT: I know that`s coming, but I think they`ve done a solid job, so far.
PINSKY: Anne? Anne, you got something for us? Go ahead.
ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY: I felt like that there was too much that was questioned. Can you hear me now?
PINSKY: We got you now. We got you. Go.
BREMNER: OK. Thank you. I almost felt like, you know, Juan Martinez was coming out of that jury box, like I`m not asking you that. Did I ask you to say that? I mean, they were terse. There were lots of them, they were prosecutorial. I think there were too many. It`s time to move this trial along. Eighteen days with Jodi on the stand, and then, you know, this many questions for a psychologist? I mean, move it along next.
PINSKY: Before I get Mary`s in, I want to hear from a caller. Laronda in Kentucky, you`ve got a grade or you got an opinion?
LARONDA, KENTUCKY: Yes, I do. I always have an opinion. Thank you for having me, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
LARONDA: I give the jury an A+. And the reason --
LARONDA: That I give the jury an A+ is because they`ve asked Jodi and Dr. Boo-Hoo questions that required short and to the point and clarified and specific answers.
PINSKY: Moving it forward.
PINSKY: It was moving things forward. It was getting more information out. I agree.
LARONDA: Really, yes. And it`s awesome. That tells me that the jury is intelligent and that they`re beginning to see the light. And according to the scope and the depth of the questions that they`ve asked, they napped during the defense fiction and paid their (ph) attention when Martinez takes the floor.
PINSKY: That`s what we keep hearing. We keep hearing that. I`ve heard a number of names referred to Dr. Samuels. We heard Dr. Boo-Hoo. I`ve heard Dr. Fog. Mary, you have opinion about?
FULGINITI: Oh, you know, I thought the questions were very astute, and I also think what was most interesting is this is the (INAUDIBLE) Arizona guy, so this is not the norm just for our viewers --
PINSKY: In the country.
FULGINITI: In the country. So, it`s really remarkable because you get a snapshot into what the jury is thinking, and there`s no question they are questioning the prosecution`s case.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s get the grades. Mark, your grade?
EIGLARSH: B+, my highest grade so far in the show.
PINSKY: That`s true. I`m like you in (Inaudible). Anne, your grade? Although we don`t hear her, I saw her mouthing a B. Let`s go to -- there it is. There you are. We got it. Cheryl, what is your grade?
ARUTT: I even thought I saw a sense of humor when they asked if Jodi`s taking meds for this terrible PTSD. I`m giving them a solid B.
FULGINITI: Yes, you know, I meant to say questioning the defense case here, excuse me. And yes, and I thought they were facetious. one Other question that they asked was, you know, do you always treat your patients so fondly, you know?
FULGINITI: So, there was some kind of facetiousness, at least, I thought coming through in some of the questions.
PINSKY: I agree.
FULGINITI: But I give them a solid A-. They were really right on board.
PINSKY: Mary, I agree with you 100 percent. They show humor, insight, facetiousness, and they`re playing with their questions a little bit. And in doing so, they`re telling us a lot about what they`re thinking. I, too, give them a solid A-. Thank you, guys.
Up next, my jurors, they are there in the courtroom. Someone was thrown out today, and they`re going to tell us why. We hear and it`s because she said "I wish Jodi were dead," right behind Jodi`s mom. They`re going to fill that in for us when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can we be certain that your assessment of Ms. Arias is not based on the lies that she has admittedly made over the years? Can you be sure Jodi is not lying to you? Do you feel it is possible for an individual to fool professionals into believing they have suffered -- are you able to definitely tell when someone is lying or telling the truth or is it based on your perception?
Is there a diagnosis for selective amnesia? Would you continue to evaluate a person who was not being honest?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is time for Drew`s jurors. With me, my co-host, Mary Fulginiti. Joining us, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. Katie, you first. So, who got thrown out of court today and why and did you see it?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": I saw everything. We had just returned, Dr. Drew, from our afternoon recess, about 3:45. And we sat down and people were coming in the courtroom, getting seated, and, there was a lady that I had been watching previously who was sitting right behind. I was on the third row. This lady was on the second row.
She was sitting right behind Jodi`s mom and her aunt. And, she was very expressive through the first part of the day, shaking her head no to certain responses. So, you could tell she didn`t like Jodi from the start. All of a sudden, I heard her, I didn`t hear when she said it, but I saw, I don`t know who it is.
It`s a supporter that sits with Jodi`s family everyday, a woman. She stood up and she turned around and she said, what did you say? And she called the bailiff to come on over and the bailiff kicked her out. And then I heard the woman who stood up to get the gal kicked out, she looked at Jodi`s mom and whispered and said she said that she wants to see Jodi dead.
It was a -- Stacy and I, we, Dr. Drew -- the family was right in this, because they warned us. Every single day we go in there, don`t talk. The family is there, both families. Just be respectful for the families --
PINSKY: We`re looking at footage of you guys chatting it up behind the family there. It looks kind of festive in there during the break.
PINSKY: So, I`m just saying, is that all good-natured? Everyone feels OK about all the chitchat?
WICK: Well, sometimes when they do sidebars, yes, they say if you want to whisper, it`s OK but not to say anything about the family, regardless if it`s about, especially since we`re sitting behind Jodi`s family, don`t say anything about Jodi, don`t make any comments. This was a pretty blatant comment, and I think the gal actually wanted Jodi`s family to hear it.
FULGINITI: Yes. And I think, you know, we have to remember, there are two mothers sitting in that courtroom. No matter how despicable the crime is, there is still another mother in there. And for her to watch her daughter on trial and possibly be put to death, it`s just heartbreaking as well.
PINSKY: Yes. We don`t want more victims. Now, Stacey, again, we`re looking at this footage of you guys sort of chatting in court. I wonder when the jurors` questions -- well, there were the jurors` questions were sort of, sometimes, kind of cheeky. Was there any snicker in the courtroom?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh, definitely. I mean, they were sarcastic today. I mean, I think they are just ready -- I mean, I feel like he has said the exact same things over and over for the past couple days. And I think at this point now, they`re looking for comic relief.
So now, they`re asking these questions about, is there a diagnosis for selective amnesia. They`re comparing the transient global amnesia as far as like sex acts, the hot and cold water too, is that the same as getting a bad haircut? We`re in the crazy house a bit. I think they`re going crazy and I think they`re, you know, venting it through this comic relief.
PINSKY: Let`s take a call from Tanya in Texas. Hang on a second, Katie. She`s got a grade for us still for the juror -- juries. Go ahead.
TANYA, TEXAS: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just gave the jury a B today simply for the fact that I Think they need to ask more questions.
PINSKY: More questions.
TANYA: Yes. More direct questions that the defense can`t round off in, you know, make more towards Jodi.
PINSKY: So, I think I understand what she`s trying to say, Katie. She`s wanting questions that really are much more pointed and specific and that can`t be glossed over.
WICK: Well, I -- yes. I understand her point. The thing, Dr. Drew, I took away from the questions today are two main points. The jury, I think, has reached the conclusion that yes, one can have PTSD and they can still premeditate a murder. And, the second point is the doctor`s problems with his filling out his forms and Juan Martinez ended great today.
The day started off questioning the doctor`s credibility. Juan Martinez ended with the raw data. Two forms are supposed to be the same but have different answers from the PSD. He ended right next to the jury. It was a great photo. Is it this one or is it this one? Which one is it? And it was a great way for him to end the day, and I think the jury will be thinking about that. The credibility of this doctor is gone. They`ve got one more opportunity, and three strikes and you`re out.
PINSKY: All right. Great way to end this segment as well. I`ll be right back.
PINSKY: Back with my jury. And ladies, we are going to take a call. This is Debbie in New York. You`ve got a grade also, Debbie?
DEBBIE, NEW YORK: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew. I would give the jury an A because of the questions they are asking.
PINSKY: Any particular question that`s struck your fancy?
DEBBIE: Just all of them. I mean, they`re so interesting and it just tells me that they`re paying attention.
PINSKY: You know, I don`t know if everyone caught this one. They asked a question about -- I forgot what the actual question was, but his response was that, I remember -- Stacey and Katie, back me up on this if you remember -- that it was earlier in the day and the psychologist said, basically, well, she`s complicated. He asked if she had other disorders.
I think it was some question along those lines. And he said not only, but she probably has a very severe personality disorder, but I didn`t fully evaluate that. It`s rather -- she`s complicated. She probably has more than one personality disorder, which is exactly what we`ve been saying on this show.
WICK: Yes. We caught that. We looked at each other and we said whoa, so he kind of took whatever he wanted to, whichever is more advantageous for Jodi, I guess.
PINSKY: That`s his job. And Mary, you agree with me on this that the fact is, probably, the defense is really restricting what he can evaluate so he doesn`t uncover too much bad stuff about her.
FULGINITI: But he shouldn`t be ignoring things that obviously would be relevant to his evaluation, you know? If he clearly thinks she`s going to complicate a personality, don`t you think he should have gone into that a little bit?
PINSKY: I certainly do. But again, we don`t know what restrictions the defense are putting on him. We`re judging him in a context. What`s that, Katie?
WICK: I`m just going to say real quick, with one of the questions was, like Stacy said, the sarcasm. You seem to have an issue with omitting important information on your documents, don`t you, doctor, and he said, no.
FAIRRINGTON: Or, do you always treat your patients so fondly.
PINSKY: That, to me, that`s really the disturbing part. Conrad Murray`s in prison because he made a friend of Michael Jackson. Physician, psychologist, they have a specific role and it`s not friend, not fond. They can like and appreciate and be empathic for people, but that`s it.
Ladies, thank you very much. Thank you to Mary Fulginiti for being my co-host this week. She`s done an excellent job. Thank you all ladies in the jury. Thank you all for watching. Next, "HLN After Dark" starts now.