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Arias Courtroom Wars; Travis` Days Before He Died; Revelation Of Travis New Tape; The Scene Where Travis Died; Dr. Drew`s Jurors; Courtroom For Travis and Jodi Crowd Grows; Anderson Taking Ambien Too Much;
Aired March 25, 2013 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias courtroom wars. Jodi is the woman in the middle of two men arguing about her.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: She met that criteria. And you can bang on it all you want and it`s still your judgment, isn`t it?
RICHARD SAMUELS, PH.D., DEFENSE EXPERT WITNESS: Of course it`s my judgment.
PINSKY: Is she loving this?
Plus, the Travis tapes. We`ve got what may be the last known audio of him. Why is he saying this?
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: Better to be dead than to live like that.
PINSKY: Who was he talking to? What did he mean?
Hear for yourself. It is minutes away.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Welcome to the program.
My co-host this week, criminal psychologist Michelle Ward. She is a stalking expert and the host of the Discovery ID`s "Stalked".
Joining us as well: Mark Eiglarsh, attorney from speaktomark.com, attorney Lauren Lake and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
Jodi`s domestic violence witness made it up to the stand today, but not before the amnesia guy came on the stand for day six. Who came out ahead in the courtroom wars today? Take a look at this.
MARTINEZ: And you decided on a whim or for whatever reason that you wanted to rescore.
SAMUELS: For my own purposes, yes. And I`m entitled to do that by the way.
Somehow when you picked up my pile of papers, on the desk here, based upon my clinical judgment and my expertise and experience, she met that criteria.
MARTINEZ: And you can bang on it all you want and it`s still your judgment.
SAMUELS: Of course, it`s my judgment.
MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true that during that time, the defendant hit Sandy for no reason, right?
MARTINEZ: And this was all before this June 4th, 2008 incident, right?
SAMUELS: But it`s irrelevant for the diagnosis.
MARTINEZ: But am I asking you that?
SAMUELS: She created an alternative universe that she responded to. So it`s not surprising that she could smile and laugh about this alternative universe.
MARTINEZ: That speaks against what`s in number one, doesn`t it?
SAMUELS: I`m sorry. I don`t see it that way.
MARTINEZ: Right. You wouldn`t see it that way because you have feelings for the defendant, right?
SAMUELS: I beg your pardon, sir.
PINSKY: Beth Karas, correspondent for "In Session" is covering the Arias murder trial.
Beth, about that comment that the expert had feelings for Jodi -- now, we`ve all been talking about that. And apparently today, there was some sort of icy behavior between Jodi and the psychologist. Tell me about that.
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, this was after what you just showed. It was a point in the trial when Samuels was off the stand during a break. And he was a little bit behind, just a few feet behind Jodi Arias. She turned around and saw him at one point. There wasn`t any contact. There was no talking. It was even a little icy.
One could argue that following Martinez`s comment, he made sure and she made sure that they were not go being to act like they were too friendly. You see Martinez thinks that Samuels crossed the line, that he wasn`t just an expert that he actually started to treat her. That he just kind of blurred the line between expert and a therapist.
And because he actually developed feelings for her, he believed. So, he cared for her, compassion for her and not just what an expert should do. Test the patient or client and then get out. Do your report and get out.
And there was an ongoing three-year relationship in that there were visits over the course of three years. But Jodi Arias was not going to act and he was not going to act like there was anything between them except for the expert witness he was supposed to be.
PINSKY: Cheryl, do you certainly get what Beth is getting at here, that perhaps he was trying to compensate for the fact that he was crossing boundaries?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: We call that reaction formation, don`t we?
PINSKY: Yes, we do.
ARUTT: I think that he may have been really trying to show that he did have some boundaries here. But this was a guy who was looking at x-rated pictures of the woman he was evaluating, get a history of boundary issues. I think it`s a little late for him to start minding his boundaries now.
PINSKY: And, Lauren, the prosecutor was fairly aggressive. Do you think he went too far? Do you think the jury had had enough for this?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know, Dr. Drew, I`ve said before that I can, you know, see that Martinez is, you know, Pitbull aggressive style can be entertaining, but today, I think it started to feel more like a battle of egos instead of a battle for evidence to be revealed to the jury. It was like two men going at it and at the end, he couldn`t just get Samuels to rattle and it was you just did all this because you like her, don`t you? And I didn`t think it was effective. I thought, now, you didn`t need to go there.
PINSKY: Mark, do you agree?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: A hundred percent. Let the hate mail come in.
But I`m telling you right now I am rooting for this prosecutor and I thought it was unbelievably unfortunate. I was sad, quite frankly, that a guy who`s got a defendant admitting to 27 stab wounds, the three to four- inch slitting of his throat is speculating about how they have a close relationship. It`s so weak, Dr. Drew, it saddens me.
PINSKY: Michelle, what do you think? Now, you and I have been talking about this case. We think she`s a stalker.
Talk to us about stalking and how Jodi fits stalking profiles.
MICHELLE WARD, CO-HOST: Well, Jodi first appeared like a typical stalker. I mean, she was going after Travis. And she really actually went through the textbook steps of a rejected stalker.
PINSKY: Which is the most common type.
WARD: That`s the most common type.
PINSKY: That`s also the most common type to get violent, too. Is that right?
WARD: Right. There`s not a lot of violence in stalking. There is about 2 percent of the time it becomes violent. But this is the thing -- if someone`s going to be violent it`s usually an ex-intimate partner. And that`s exactly what we see her.
So when I first heard the story, I thought, OK, this is a typical stalker. But now, now, she`s appearing much more like deviant psychopath. And it`s interesting. I`ve never had somebody present two totally different pathologies, two totally psychological profiles.
PINSKY: Cheryl, you`re nodding your head. You agree with that?
WARD: That is so fascinating, Michelle, that you`re saying that because when you said that I was just thinking that I also thought there were two totally different paradigms, first the borderline personality paradigm.
PINSKY: Which is the stalking, hang on the second. I want to -- for the viewers at home, borderline for people that become stalkers, very often, we talked about people that are empty. Just like Jodi is. She looks like her attorney. She can`t find a sense of self. She`s empty. She gets attached to somebody. Can`t tolerate rejection, can`t tolerate abandonment.
And then becomes violent. That`s the borderline.
Then, what`s the other part, Cheryl?
ARUTT: Well, the other part, Dr. Drew, is the psychopath part, the part that is the cold calculating, planning personality that can stay icy calm and stay regulated while they`re carrying out what their plan is. And that`s something that usually the first kind has a lot of trouble doing. It`s very unusual to be good at both.
PINSKY: Mark, do you think the prosecution is going to --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Well, I wanted to ask. I`ve heard sociopath, I`ve heard psychopath. I`m wondering whether you think she`s both or one or the other?
PINSKY: What we`re saying is, the three of us are saying the same thing. I think Michelle, Cheryl and I agree that she has these characteristics of a stalker. And as a stalker, they often have certain character constructs or traits that give them that liability.
A lot of people have these traits, some severe, some not severe, which is under of spectrum of borderline, which you agree, Michelle? Yes, borderline.
And then now she has this quality of psychopathy, not sociality, but psychopathy, where she`s calculating. Travis doesn`t really exist as a person with feelings and she could use him as a piece of meat that she slaughters, right, Michelle?
WARD: Absolutely. I mean, she`s a goal-driven, unemotional, blunted affect.
PINSKY: This is something your experting. You`re an expert in psychopathy.
WARD: Oh, yes, that is my field of study. And that`s the thing.
They don`t have -- Dr. Drew said something very interesting last week. We cannot look at these people like their brains work the same way ours do.
And that`s exactly what`s going on with Jodi. She didn`t look at him like a regular person. He was her object. He was her goal, and she didn`t have those emotional connections because psychopaths are incapable of doing that.
PINSKY: And that everybody, put my panel up here. I want to see if everybody agrees with me on this, that is that all of us at home and all of us that`s that oh, my goodness, how could she -- how`s that possible? Our bodies react to Jodi Arias when she lies, when we hear about her behaviors, when we listen to those sex tapes. It`s so incongruous because her brain doesn`t work like ours does.
Give me a nod, buddy. Amen, yes?
ARUTT: Yes. But, Dr. Drew, they can fake it. A psychopath can fake those emotions, can`t they? And that`s an important piece of this too.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, guys.
Next up, our "Behavior Bureau" returns with the outspoken gentleman who had dated Jodi in Pasadena. That`s where I live. What`s he saying now? Hi, Abe.
And later, we have the last known audio of Travis Alexander. Why did he say better to be dead?
Stay with us and find out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERROGATOR: This is just one of the photos that was taken by accident. That`s your foot, Jodi. Those are your pants.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: That is not my foot.
INTERROGATOR: Those are your pants.
ARIAS: I have both of those pants at home, if these are the same ones. I don`t have a zipper there though, not on mine.
INTERROGATOR: You couldn`t even recognize Travis, he`d been there so long. That right there is blood. That blood. It`s a mixture of yours and his. And that`s your palm print of your left palm.
ARIAS: I don`t have any cuts on my left palm.
INTERROGATOR: Do you have any recent cuts that are healing?
ARIAS: Well, my cat scratches me, little things.
INTERROGATOR: Enough about your cat, but why is your palm print in blood?
ARIAS: How can that be my palm print?
INTERROGATOR: Because you were there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau", my host this week, psychologist Michelle Ward. She`s my co-host.
That`s not my foot, those aren`t my pants. The cat did it. How could my palm be there?
Michelle, you had interest in why she wanted to look at those pictures at all.
WARD: Well, it was interesting. Your panel last week I think correctly thought she`s looking at the evidence. She wants to know what they have against her. But I was kind of thinking -- I`d like to hear Cheryl`s opinion about this -- I was thinking, doesn`t she want to see her trophy of what she did?
PINSKY: My brain doesn`t do that, Michelle. That`s a very bizarre, cold calculating thing wow to say. But let`s discuss it.
Joining us: forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychologist Wendy Walsh, psychiatrist Dr. Tracey Marks, and the young and who dated Jodi Arias, Abe Abdelhadi.
Abe, Jodi has been questioned for murder. She seems so calm. She`s convincing and actually she sounded child-like to me in the tape. Is that the Jodi you knew?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Not at all. It seemed like in that tape she was trying to say the big lie over and over and over and hopefully, they would believe her.
She was not that way at all. Of course, she`s going to try to save her own skin. So, she`s going to try to play the little girl as best way she can. But that was not the person I knew, not even remotely.
PINSKY: Cheryl, how about the idea that Michelle is putting out there, that she got off on looking at those pictures?
ARUTT: Oh, Michelle is definitely on to something, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Cheryl, please don`t go there. I have trouble sitting in --
WARD: Look, she took pictures.
ARUTT: What do you mean? She`s looking -- the idea that she feels a sense of victory, of gloating of, hey, look at what I did, look at what I got away with.
ARUTT: And still thinking she can get away with.
You`re right, that`s not the way most of our minds work. But that`s what a psychopath is counting on.
PINSKY: Tracey, I`m going to go to you. You had a sort of contrary opinion when we go down these roads. You agree with them? It`s so -- it`s so, it`s creepy to hear them talk like that.
TRACEY MARKS: Yes. So, I`m in a little on both sides in that, I`m in the psychopath camp, for sure. I don`t think -- I disagree with the idea that she`s gloating over her -- you know, the things that she`s done. I`m more along the lines of I think she`s playing her role and right now, she`s trying to look like the little innocent girl and act stupid thing. It`s not going well.
PINSKY: It did sound like, mommy, I don`t have any cuts on my hand. How could there be bleeding in the wall. I`m confused.
Wendy, do you agree with that?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, absolutely. She`s playing that investigator, and doing her best little girl-child-like thing.
But here`s some evidence on the gloating side of it. You know, she brought a camera when she came to murder him, remember? And she took pictures of all their sexual acts and pictures of him in the shower and maybe even pictures of him dying and pictures of him dead.
So I think she was gloating a little bit. And she was making a photographic trophy, if you will of her handiwork.
PINSKY: Mental note, next time, Wendy, Cheryl and Michelle are around hide somewhere from the studio.
OK, another day of seeing double when we look at Jodi and her attorney. Let`s get some pictures of that.
Cheryl, today, it was off white. There they are mommy and me. Off-white blazers, dark shirts -- Cheryl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twinsies.
PINSKY: Twinsies, coincidence. And, by the way, if you get a picture of mom and the aunt, they were in the same outfit, too, which I found bizaare.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They really are twins, though, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I understand. But even that`s bizarre for adult twins in their latter decades of middle age to be wearing the identical dress. I don`t know, maybe that`s where our buddy Jodi got the idea.
What do you say, Cheryl?
ARUTT: Well, again, I think that this is now the most important person in her life, her attorney. And I think that show`s really trying to model herself after her. She feels safer when she is sort of under the wing of someone she`s modeling herself after.
PINSKY: Abe, when you were out and about with her, did you ever see her do anything weird like that, where she was, really, I know she had that whole thing about the secret where she would wish things the way they were and magically they`d come true. But she`s actually modeled other people?
ABDELHADI: I didn`t notice -- she dressed -- she had her own style. She had her own thing going on. She really worked the bombshell angle. She was very assertive.
She didn`t model herself so much after people`s dress or behavior patterns as much as she emulated who they were and what she wanted to be like, I imagine especially after she became a Mormon. She was trying to model herself after certain Mormon women in her ward.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s, Abe --
PINSKY: But, again, Wendy, she`s searching for an identity --
PINSKY: She assumes the identity of her boyfriend.
WALSH: But, listen, Abe, if she wasn`t modeling herself exactly after people, the fact that she was playing the bombshell, she was modeling herself after what she believed people wanted.
WALSH: She wanted to figure out what they wanted and she would incarnate into that.
ABDELHADI: It`s kind of like Dr. Hack and Quack`s synopsis of all of this. She comes along and he makes up a little convenient testimony of an expert witness. After he heard her nonsense about a fog. Suddenly, he`s got this medical crap about the fog.
PINSKY: Well --
ABDELHADI: I mean, It`s the same kind of a concept. She modeled herself after what she wanted -- but the bottom line is she was assertive in all of it. She was never showing a lack of confidence.
PINSKY: Tracey, let`s finish this up with this one thing. Hang on a second, Tracey, let me go to you. And you and I, you probably work with similar populations of what I work with, where you really can`t believe almost anything a patient says. Why didn`t he take that posture for somebody who was in prison for murder, who admitted to the murder and who have been clearly lying repeatedly, why did he choose to believe what the patient was doing and saying?
MARKS: I can`t get that either. I don`t know if he was perhaps so far in that he had this opinion and then all of a sudden he`s blindsided by his, the attorney saying she`s changed her story. He`s already been committed to their. And so, he`s just trying to save face.
I don`t get it. I really don`t understand how he could just continue and even get on the stand for that matter.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. Now, guys, next up, why is Jodi so smug in her mug? My "Behavior Bureau" tackles the mug shot.
And later, exclusive audio of Travis. Do they reveal a side of him we`ve not yet seen?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I wanted to address, and that is my mug shot. I think I did a little tilt on my head and gave a little smile.
When I was actually being booked I was like wow I see this stuff on TV all the time and so this is interesting. I know that I`m innocent, even though this is a very serious thing to be charged with, there`s no reason for me to be sad. In the meantime, smile, say cheese.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Those stunning comments were from an interview Jodi Arias gave to "48 Hours" shortly after her arrest in 2008.
Back with our "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host Michelle Ward.
Jodi Arias facing murder charges and talking as if she`s vying for America`s next top mug shot.
Abe, that seems more like the Jodi you remember, no?
ABDELHADI: Yes. And also to, I think, it`s basic common sense that if you`re caught, you`re more relaxed and you know you`re busted. There`s that thing that prisoners sleep better in a jail cell the night they get caught if they really did do it.
She`s smiling because she knows it`s over. The month that she`s been trying to outwit these guys, she knows it`s done. Now, she`s just trying to concoct a story and come up with something clever.
PINSKY: That again is a very interesting perspective that my head doesn`t do that. Does that sound right for her?
WARD: Well, you know, I`m looking at her and I`m thinking she`s using her explanation for this mug shot that she didn`t do anything wrong, there`s nothing to be sad about.
Hello, you say you`re be being accused of something you didn`t commit. There`s nothing to be sad about? There`s nothing to be freaked out about? Plus, the ex-boyfriend is dead. To me, it just screams of more Jodi crazy, psychopathic features.
PINSKY: Let me read you guys a Twitter @Zachs_0909 (ph), "Would be safe to say that Jodi Arias doesn`t feel empathy, is a master manipulator and a cunning con artist?" Cheryl?
ARUTT: That is a fabulous way to put it, Dr. Drew. What do you think?
PINSKY: I think it`s exactly accurate. You and I and all of us, the clinicians here, are trying to struggle with understanding this from a diagnostic standpoint. But from a general public standpoint, just a lying, manipulating a con artist.
Wendy, do you agree?
WALSH: I agree. And, Dr. Drew, let me ask you this. I`m talking about her smile now in her mug shot. I have to tell you a very disturbing thing that I saw this summer when I was in Poland. I toured Auschwitz and saw that some of the prisoners, I hate to use the word "prisoners", some of the people there, their photographs, they were some smirks here or there.
And I thought to myself, why would they smile? Why would they smile while they`re being photographed by a Nazi?
And I thought about it. That camera operator was then their lifeline. If they were good and had good social skills or people skills, maybe they were trying to manipulate for a crumb of bread, even the person operating the camera.
And remember, Jodi is a master manipulator. There`s a person there taking that camera. It was probably a man, and she was working him, mark my words.
PINSKY: Yes, you guys are really giving me -- I`ve got a cold chill going down my spine.
Tracey, what about just defiance? Wouldn`t defiance be another possibility here?
MARKS: I think that`s a possibility, but I think that we have to remember that even though I believe she`s also a psychopath as well, you know, one of the people who wrote a book called "The Mask of Sanity." And you have to remember, there still is something wrong with these people. Even though they`re masterful, there`s still something wrong with their brains. They don`t operate the same way.
PINSKY: That`s right. And again, everybody, that`s what makes us watch this thing. We`re like what the heck. That`s what made Kobe Bryant come to me in a Laker game and ask, how`s this possible? How`s this work? That`s why, our buddy.
Thank to this panel. You guys did great.
Next up, Travis in his own voice talking about death. What do you mean? You`re going to hear it for yourself.
And later, Travis home, we have some incredible video from the "48 Hours" show of the crime scene. If you aren`t convinced, you may in fact become convinced after you watch this footage.
Be right back.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ALEXANDER: When they signed the Declaration of Independence, it was only a Declaration of Independence if they`d won the war. You know what it was if they lost? It was a death certificate.
You know what? What have we heard? Give me liberty or give me death, right?
They didn`t want King George saying how life was going to be for them. And so, they decide to sign a Declaration of Independence, because it would be better to be dead than to live like that.
And as long as you were putting your life into someone else`s hands, nothing`s going to change.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Spooky. That was a clip from exclusive audio we obtained from Travis Alexander give ago speech less than one month before Jodi killed him.
Back with me, psychologist Michelle Ward. She`s the host of "Stalked: Someone`s Watching" on Investigation Discovery. Yes, Michelle -- I mean, you must tell stories like this on your show, right? I mean, not the Travis story, but the Jodi story.
MICHELLE WARD, CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I mean, there`s a -- there`s a joke that this will be in our next season because it`s so prototypical about of a stalking situation.
PINSKY: And, the other thing we are worried about in this particular story though is that both of them -- the special alchemy of the two of them together that I think were so explosive. Don`t you agree?
WARD: Well, absolutely. I mean certainly -- I mean he was the perfect victim, but she plays the perfect victim too.
WARD: And, this is -- I want to tackle a little bit of your expertise.
WARD: You work with common survivors.
WARD: I don`t have that expertise. Do you think any of this that she`s doing is indicative of past abuse? I mean what are your take about these?
PINSKY: Well, I could build -- if they put me as an expert witness up on the stand I could build that case. I really could. I could make it. But, the reality is, the evidence is so flimsy that as just an individual watching this, "I think come on, you`ve got to be kidding me."
On my construct here is that, "yes, she had some light abuse and stuff, but she had a lot of psychopathy, and she then became the perpetrator. And, I think that`s the bigger story here. Now, that same day that Travis joked about being single, apparently, you can watch this from Youtube. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MUDER VICTIM: When I first started training and things like that. You can imagine the first thing I would hear a lot of is, "By the way, he`s single." And -- that`s right, I am. Ladies, come get me. That`s been going on for six years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jacob Mefford was a friend of Travis`s, and he was there that day. Actually, there was Jodi as well. And, he joins us now. Jacob, what was going through your mind as you watched and listened to Travis that day?
JACOB MEFFORD, FRIEND OF TRAVIS: Well, watching Travis, you know, get started from nothing, literally having two or three minimum wage jobs and coming from, you know, the pit of hell that he had come from in the past. And, watching him develop, I remember sitting there thinking, "Wow, you know, he`s really become something great." And, I just remember thinking how polished he was and just his depth of his character and the substance of who he was as a person and just his talent to be able to deliver a message that can inspire a lot. I just remember thinking, you know, "Man, well done. "
PINSKY: And, Jacob, you know, Michelle was asking me before we watched this about trauma survivors. You say the pit of hell. I`ve heard a lot of vague notions about where Travis came from. What do you mean when you say the pit of hell?
MEFFORD: You know, it`s interesting Jodi`s up there talking about her background, but Travis isn`t here to talk about his, and his was ten times worse than anything she could ever tried to be even make up.
You know, he was really the victim of being born into a broken family. His mom was a drug user, aggressively. He was homeless with her at times. I remember he was telling me one of his memories was living underneath a -- you know, an actual cover on a truck port in the back yard somewhere, and actually having visions of his mom literally going to the bathroom in a five gallon bucket.
And, so this is where he came from to go through all of that, deal with those struggles, deal with that baggage and to decide to make something of himself rather than use it as an excuse.
So what I love is when he`s speaking from that stage. He`s not talking in theory like maybe a lot politicians she is speaking from somebody from somebody who has actually come from hell, dealt with it, said, "you know, what, that`s my story, who cares" and then turned around and did something positive with it.
PINSKY: And, then Cheryl, can you see how that history might have made him liable to be manipulated by somebody like Jodi?
DR. CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: He made with that history and also that it could make him vulnerable because of a shared kind of trauma that that felt familiar on some level to him. But, I think we need to look at how some people grow up in really challenging circumstances. And, they make choices that bring them to a place where they inspire. They pay it forward. They earn something different. And some people make choices to repeat the victimization and continue the cycle.
PINSKY: But, I would say, though, guys, and Michelle you asked about my expertise dealing with trauma survivors. The liability that people have when they`ve been in traumatic childhoods is in their interpersonal life. That`s where the stuff emerges from the past. They may do great in their careers. They may do great functioning in many other ways. But, in their interpersonal life stuff comes to life. Mark, my question to you is why isn`t more of this being discussed in the courtroom?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, good question. I think the longer that you talk about test 535 and whether the frontpage of 550 is there, you`re losing perspective on what the sense of lost truly is. You are losing perspective on the bloody crime scene, which I know we`re going to talk about very soon.
EIGLARSH: And, that is my frustration. You know, when you listen to audio and you see him imitate, and he take on this character, Eddie Snell, you taste his brilliance.
EIGLARSH: You see just how bright and how funny he was and what a sense of loss this was.
PINSKY: Lauren do you agree with that?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know what, Dr. Drew, I have to add, and it`s a sad thing and you see this so often, where one person`s demons meets another person`s demons and it adds up to destruction.
LAKE: And, in this case, death. That this young man could be such a promising speaker and motivator and yet we heard things during the trial where you would say, "Wow, this is the same guy that`s motivating all of these people in a room? He has these sexual interests?" And, it makes you wonder, "What was he dealing with? And, how that met with what Jodi was dealing with from her past life, and look at what it became." It`s no excuses, but that`s the reality of how devastating this is.
PINSKY: That is exactly where the alchemy of the two people. Now, early on this conversation, I asked an expert if Travis was a sex addict and what the expert said to me was, "No, I don`t think he has any criteria for that. But, the right person might suck him into something where something came out of him that wasn`t him. And, that is what I think, Michelle, we`re dealing with, aren`t we?
WARD: Right, and I think that he actually approached other people and asked for help and recognized it.
PINSKY: That`s why he was trying to get out. That`s why he was trying to leave. And, that`s when the violence occurs. And, that`s when her terrorism of controlling him with sex broke down, and she broke down into violence. Thank you to the panel. Here -- Are we going to show this other clip before we go to break? -- No. Next we`re going to take you inside. This is going to be very interesting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Inside Travis Alexander`s home, rare video from inside the crime scene. And, later, my jury has ring side seats for the big battle today. Hear their thoughts. And, we`ll be back after this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Coming up at the top of the hour. Our bold accusation, Travis abused Jodi. I`m looking for a not guilty verdict tonight from our in- studio jury and our virtual jury at home in hlntv.com. So, Travis abuse Jodi, I am looking for a not guilty. Check it out top of the hour right here on "HLN After Dark."
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TRAVIS: You know why 50 cent`s name is 50 cent? Because that`s the average income of the individuals who listen to his music. Take that. Who would listen to that crap? "Yah know, rough-`em-up, shoot-`em-up, kill-`em dead, rape, sex, murder. Yeah, that`s awesome." You listen to that?
And, you expect to succeed in life? Don`t fool yourselves. If that`s what you`re listening to, that`s what you become. Or you can listen to -- how you can accomplish anything. Is that, that you have unlimited ability, that nothing can hold you down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That seemed to be his philosophy. I`m back with psychologist Michelle Ward. That was another clip from the exclusive audio of Travis less than one month before Jodi killed him.
Michelle, the one thing that both he and Jodi seemed to share, but Jodi in a much more primitive way, the idea of magical thinking. If you think something is going to happen magically, it can. That`s different than just power positive mental attitude, right? PMA good thing, magical thinking bad thing.
WARD: I think for Jodi, it`s an excuse to not to take responsibility for her on actions. She doesn`t have to do anything. If she just, you know, wants it enough it will happen for her. And, that`s pretty consistent with who Jodi is.
PINSKY: Going inside Travis Alexander`s home, the trail of blood. We got to see this. Illustrates the violent and bloody death of Travis Alexander at the hands, admittedly of Jodi Arias. Joining us to look at the footage from CBS 48 hours is Dr. Bill Lloyd. He is a surgeon and pathologist.
All right, let`s get a look at that video. As we go through it, I want Dr. Lloyd to kind of talk about it. This now is inside the home. We are looking it infamous shower. Go ahead, Dr. Lloyd.
DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Sure. So, we see a dimly lit room. There is some residual bloodstains in the shower. But, as we travel back into the apartment, they are going to be using ultraviolet light and a chemical called luminal. Long after the investigation was concluded, and there is still residual metabolized blood.
You see that hole in the wall? They take out a piece of drywall where there may have been important fingerprints or hand prints. Bring it back to the laboratory to apply the Luminol and to take those photographs. Drew, you can only use Luminol once and after that, it`s done. So, you have to do it right under standard laboratory conditions if you want to get the evidence that you can use in a murder trial.
PINSKY: Now, wait a minute. Dr. Lloyd, the handprints you are holding up, is that likely to be what was -- first of all I keep looking at this. We`re looking at the light -- there is your handprints now. Now, the hand prints you`re holding up is that likely to be like what were cut out of the drywall? Those were Jodi`s handprints?
LLOYD: It certainly was. And, over time of course, things can change color. And, we know for a fact that Jodi did a lot of housekeeping after the murder. Imagine that. After shooting him, slashing his throat, stabbing him in the chest, she then went around and cleaned the house. Did a load of laundry and washed the walls as well.
PINSKY: And, oops, camera fell in the washing machine without me paying attention on that, I was in afar I guess. Let`s go back, show me the video again, guys, in the control room. I want to see the light switches again.
Dr. Lloyd, you were saying that the way the light switches are particularly bloodied suggest to you that it was not somebody there. There`s stuff all over these light switches. It`s not somebody trying to turn lights on and off. It`s somebody leaning against the wall with blood all over their hands trying to drag somebody through.
LLOYD: Grasping every surface in the house in order to stay erect before they pass out, indicating the ferocious nature of this violence. And, don`t let anybody confuse anybody that this involved bumping into a knife near a bathroom sink and spitting up a little blood. Travis was dragging blood all over the house and
Jodi did all that she could to clean it up. But, even if you wash it away, Drew, even if you bleach it away, the blood elements, the molecules, the haemoglobin will persist. And, using Luminol, they will light up months or years later. She couldn`t get ahead of it and it shows premeditation on her part.
PINSKY: Mark, do you agree?
EIGLARSH: Absolutely. In fact, the crime scene for me clearly illustrates self defense. Travis was trying to defend himself from a vicious attack.
PINSKY: And, why is this not, Lauren, being discussed more in the courtroom? I don`t understand why they have gotten off on whether Dr. Samuels, you know, gaffed and erased -- what you know, he had a typo, whatever, as opposed to going back to the crime scene. It tells the whole story.
LAKE: Are they watching the show, Dr. Drew? We`re trying to tell them to stop majoring in the minors. We`re getting off on he likes her, all this $9 book. Moment after moment, the jury is bored to tears, so are we.
LAKE: Get to the meat. You`ve got to get to this premeditation if you want this girl to go down.
PINSKY: Lauren, Mark, is this going to happen? Are they going to get to it? Are we going to sit to another month of tedium and they finally go back to the crime scene?
EIGLARSH: God, I hope so. Drew, listen, understand my position. I love Juan Martinez for being a vicious advocate, I get it. But, when you deviate from what you`ve got, you`ve got the evidence. You`ve got the crime scene. You`ve got an illogical story. You don`t have to focus on whether he gave her a book or not, which humanizes her for Christ sake.
It shows that he actually cared for her. Stay away from that stuff whether he liked her, whether they had a relationship. That`s all speculation. Focus on the meat and potatoes. As Lauren and I are telling you, focus on the bloody crime scene and what you`ve got.
LAKE: And, if he doesn`t hammer that hole, he`s going to leave areas of confusion and confusion is good for the defense, not the prosecution.
PINSKY: Very interesting.
PINSKY: All right, guys. But, Dr. Lloyd, you and I are doctors, don`t you agree that -- we are sort of scratching our heads like what are the attorneys doing here? Why can we get back to the facts? Yes?
LLOYD: We have to know about this premeditation. People don`t think about this. But, if you`re going to commit a crime, you`re also going to plan on getting away with that crime. So, not only was Jodi thinking about killing Travis and the gas cans and the camera and getting the gun, et cetera, she also thought about covering her tracks so that she could get away without being pinned to this very, very heinous and very violent murder.
PINSKY: But, Michelle, I think when she shot him, and he still was able to stand up and come towards her, that`s when she plan number two kicked in. She grabbed the knife started stabbing, got a little bloodier that she expected.
WARD: You know, I look at the sloppiness and I had to paid to play devil advocate, but as an argument against premeditation if you`re going to kill somebody aren`t you going to plan this a little better?
PINSKY: Well, it went the whole day --
WARD: All right. All right.
PINSKY: Based on the crime scene, we`ll just make sure there are alternative --
PINSKY: Yes, OK. Next up -- thank you guys. My jurors witnessed today`s courtroom wars. They are here after the break.
PINSKY: It is time for drew`s jurors. Back with psychologist, Michelle Ward, she`s the host of "Stalked: Someone`s Watching" on investigation Discovery. Joining us now, Katie Wick, our residence jurist, and Stacy Farrington. Now, Stacy in the courtroom, I`m hearing there are lines outside of the courtroom now and it`s harder to get in. First of all, how do you guys get in there every day? And how crowded was it?
STACY FARRINGTON, JURIST: Well, you know, they do -- they start lining up early. And, I know the first day I came I was here at 6:30 and there was already a line. So, it does kind of seem, there is a system. They do line up, and then you go upstairs and then you wait your turn in seats. And, each day, depending on the day, it gets worse. It gets better. Some days you don`t even really know. So we really do have to get there early and then just take our chances and hoping that we can get in for the morning and then get in, in the afternoon again. But, yes, it is getting crowded.
PINSKY: Katie, back with Casey Anthony, a little mini society developed. There was a sheriff and there were people that were in authority and there were people that had seniority and people were newcomers. Is that kind of little microcosm developing in this room too?
KATIE WICK, JURIST: Yes. We basically have our own little jury going. In the first week I came, it was probably the third week. We have our regulars. And, there was no system, whatsoever. And, so the hardest thing for Stacy and myself, is when we get here and there`s a lot of people. It is usually when Juan Martinez is up. We think, "Oh, gosh we better get here early."
There are a lot of people lined up, so we have to decide whether or not we want to do the morning session or the afternoon session, because sometimes you don`t get into both. So, it`s really kind of a gamble.
PINSKY: And, today you guys --
WICK: But it makes it fun.
PINSKY: You were in both today? Or the afternoon? And, this is my question is, "A. Which one were you?" And "B. Who do you think won today? Was it the prosecution that they carry the day?"
WICK: Oh, totally. We were in both, actually. We got into both. There weren`t as many people as we expected. Yes. It was -- it was good. Juan Martinez did a really great job going through that section C this morning with a PSD required for PTSD, and he went one by one by one by one.
And, basically proved in essence that Dr. Samuels went on old information in order to make Jodi Arias capable of quote-unquote "having PTSD." He`s using old information. He did a great job. And, we`re happy we got to see the next domestic violence expert come up today, so.
PINSKY: Yes. That will be interesting. Although, she`s a little less dynamic, it will be interesting to see what kind of issues she raises. We will let you put you on that a little bit. Darlene, do you have a comment for anybody? Darlene? Are you there?
DARLENE: Yes, I am.
PINSKY: What have you got for us?
DARLENE: Who`s this?
PINSKY: Dr. Drew, go right ahead.
DARLENE: Dr. Drew, I`m so sorry. Yes, my head is going to explode if I don`t find out the answer to this question.
PINSKY: All right?
DARLENE: Why did not Mr. Martinez ask Dr. Samuels today about the two greeting cards she is supposed to have sent to Jodi?
PINSKY: Stacy, any sense about that?
FARRINGTON: You know, I don`t know why he`s addressed that. I`m assuming it must be because he`s got more things. I know he really wanted to address some other things with the jury. And, I think the hard thing for him right now is really trying to get these things into the jury because he keeps getting all these objections from Jennifer.
DR. DREW: Did the jury -- Let me ask you about the Jury guy. Did the jury seem bored today or are they still engaged?
FARRINGTON: Well, no. I don`t even know if I`d call it bored at this point. I think we have jury break down going on. At one point, Juan was trying to introduce this tape in. And, there was this huge long sidebar and they let Dr. Samuels read it, and then which he read forever and then Juan finally got back to his desk and said OK let`s listen. He got those two words out before Jennifer objected again for an approach. And, it was literally the entire jury reaction putting their hands up at their faces, covering their eyes.
PINSKY: They have enough.
FARRINGTON: I mean, it was the biggest group jury reaction I have seen. They have enough.
PINSKY: They`ve had enough. Thank you guys, as always. I`ll be back to talk about something --
FARRINGTON: Thank you.
PINSKY: About Anderson Cooper. I wonder if he has a death wish. You`ll see what I`m talking about after this.
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ANDERSON COOPER, TV HOST: I mean I`m not a drinker, but you know I have an occasional glass of wine. But, the idea I sort of -- If I`m, you know, if I`m going to take an Ambien one night, you know, I don`t think -- I just kind of pooh-poohed the whole alcohol drug combination thing. But, clearly --
PINSKY: This is the third time our guest have mentioned Ambien. I think we have to pull him aside for a little talk here.
COOPER: I really don`t think Ambien needs you but I mean I do occasionally have one if I`m travelling or whatever on a plane.
PINSKY: I got that the first time you said it. I heard it. But, yes, you`re not an addict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s interesting what you can learn if you listen carefully to people on television. As I and cooper were discussing, actually a very serious issue that can result in death. But, you know, is another -- his appearance on 60 minutes. Another potentially fatal move, he`s swimming with crocodiles. Take a look at this.
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COOPER: You`re so close to it. You just know how strong it is. And, it looks right at you. And, you know, and it knows lurking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lurking on a near by ledge, there`s another crocodile.
COOPER: Close off one of their valves in their hearts which stops the flow of blood to some of their organs, and allows them to see underwater for hours at a time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Michelle, all that crocodile has to do is kind to turn its head a little bit, "boom, no more Anderson Cooper." We got the Ambien. We got the alcohol. We got the thrill seeking. Is he OK? I worry about my friend.
WARD: I love that guy.
PINSKY: He`s a great guy. I`m going to New York tonight, and I`m going to track him down. I`m going to drag him out into the show to explain a couple of things.
WARD: Will you tell him I have a question for him?
PINSKY: I will question him.
WARD: I know that I am not his type and I am happily married, but the guy is adorable. And I can`t believe he`s putting his life on the line like that because we need him here.
PINSKY: The strange thing here is that Michelle and I were talking before the show and she had questions about Ambien and alcohol too. I`m just saying simply everybody kind of ask questions about that. And, look I`m not saying I`m not saying Anderson is the right guy. I`m not saying that but people can sometimes use alcohol and Ambien in combination and inadvertently suppressed the respiration or aspirator, not pay attention or they get tolerant too. Don`t realize it, use a little more.
WARD: All right.
PINSKY: These drugs, we over-pill everybody. That`s just the big message here. Now, we are over -- maybe I don`t think we all swim with crocodiles, but we all over-pill. I`m just saying. Michelle, thank you so much. You did a great job. We`ll have you all week here. Thank you all for watching. Thank you for calling, and watch our new hit show "HLN After Dark." I will see you there. I love doing that show. Vinny Ryan, it starts right now.