CNN CNN


 

Return to Transcripts main page

DR. DREW

Jodi Arias Trial

Aired March 26, 2013 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Ripped from reality, the amazing case. The woman who called the cops on Jodi Arias. She knew Jodi was a killer.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. I didn`t even think I was holding the trigger.

PINSKY: She`ll tell us what gave it away.

Plus, extreme makeover. Why Jodi stood on her head and flipped her hair while under questioning for murder finally explained.

ARIAS: Before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?

PINSKY: And did this woman just save Jodi`s life?

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Welcome to the program this evening. We`ve got a lot to get into.

My co-host this week, psychologist Michelle Ward.

But before we get into our analysis, we`re going to get back to the trial. Let`s push that play button and finish up the trial for today. Take a look.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s talk about the children who are growing up in these homes. And that`s what I was saying is that we`ve discussed children who grow up in an abusive family.

Do they always -- do these children always turn out to have problems or turn out to be abusive themselves?

WITNESS: We`d actually have no way of knowing that. Because we don`t have everybody in our programs and, but I would just say this, that if you grow up --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, lack of foundation.

JUDGE: Sustained.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know -- do you have knowledge with regard to when depending on a child`s personality. Does that make any difference?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, lack of foundation. It`s an issue we discussed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m asking if she has knowledge.

JUDGE: All right, ladies and gentlemen, we`re going to take the evening recess.

The court has a matter tomorrow morning at 10:00. So I`m going to ask that you return at 10:45. And we`ll try to start promptly at that time. So, 10:45 tomorrow morning. Please remember the admonition. Have a nice evening, you are excused.

PINSKY: All right. That concludes the trial for today. Let`s get into our analysis.

Joining me to discuss, as I said, my co-host this week, Michelle Ward, Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, Judge Karen Mills, and Beth Karas, who is there reporting from the courthouse.

We`re going to take a look at some tape and come back. And then I`m going to play the role of an expert witness. They`re going to interrogate me.

Take a look at this first.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The late `70s and early `80s, that domestic violence wasn`t something that people really paid attention to. Is that right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since you started taking cases, have you ever been asked to represent somebody or be retained as an expert and turned a case down?

WITNESS: Yes, I have.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how much do you get paid an hour?

WITNESS: Two hundred and fifty dollars an hour for research and $300 an hour for court appearance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you say an active aggression, can you give us an idea of what you`re talking about?

WITNESS: Well, it could be -- it could be slapping or hitting someone. It could be throwing something. In psychological abuse, you can have somebody who`s putting somebody down in a really insidious way. A lot of women have no proof of physical abuse, because they haven`t reported.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: OK. "In Sessions`" Beth Karas is there. You were in court during that witness` testimony. Did she breathe any new life into the defense?

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, she really hasn`t applied all of her knowledge about domestic violence to the fact this is this case yet. She`s just been giving the jury a tutorial on domestic violence, even talking about couples` counseling, which is not relevant in this case. Jurors have not put any questions in their basket. They`re just sitting there passively listening to her.

PINSKY: I think she`s just building the case for the possibility that someone like Travis theoretically could be an abuser. She`s talking at length about what it is that she does and all the experience she`s had. It`s very folksy style. So she`s enlisting the trust of the jury.

I want to play expert witness right now. I want you guys to give me your best shot questions. We`ll start with you.

JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, TV`S "JUDGE KAREN": Well, you know, as we heard from this expert today, there are different types of perpetrators of domestic violence. If we are to believe that Travis Alexander was an abuser, what type of abuser would you categorize him as, doctor?

PINKSY: Karen, I think it`s what`s called common couple violence. He`s a guy that felt out of control in a relationship and he resorted to physicality. He was not an interpersonal terrorist.

Interpersonal terrorism is someone who uses power and control.

And, by the way, if I were questioning that witness on the stand, I would say, Alice, what would it be like if a woman, not using physical violence, were to perpetrate control over a male victim, sex and guile? And that`s what Jodi did.

Mark, what do you want to ask me?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: OK. I always like to take witnesses and turn them around and make them help my case. So, what I`m going to do is I`m going to ask you now to testify on behalf of the prosecution, OK?

PINSKY: Yes.

EIGLARSH: And I want you to hypothetically believe that Jodi Arias, the defendant in this case, slashed Travis` tires, followed him around and hypothetically slashed his tires again, also change the facts a little bit, because she did. And I want you to tell us why she`s the abuser and not the abused.

PINSKY: Because -- let`s look at the facts. This is the one thing that never seems to happen in this case. No one seems to focus on the facts. The facts are exactly as you say, Mr. Prosecutor. The facts are she is the one that perpetrated violence on someone else. He may be according to her at least, took a couple of swings at her, not OK. Their relationship was not healthy.

And, by the way, Karen, I`ve heard you talk very clearly about this case. It`s just two unhealthy getting together. And, you know, typically unhealthy people end up in an unhealthy situation. And that`s exactly what happened there.

What kind of abuser would she be, Mark? Is that the question?

EIGLARSH: Oh, yes. I think that you could turn this whole thing around, and she is equally consistent as an abuser based on the facts that she`s thrown out, and we can`t even brief what she`s saying.

PINSKY: Absolutely. She`s the one that we have evidence for killing somebody, stalking somebody, lying with impunity.

Michelle, does that not make my case for me?

MICHELLE WARD, CO-GUEST: I think Mark gave you a pretty easy question, because yes, the evidence in this --

PINSKY: That`s right.

WARD: The evidence in this case speaks for itself. I mean, there is an element, look, this witness is doing a great job. As a trial consultants, that`s what we want to see. We want to see that the expert witness is being a teacher to the jury. And she`s just setting up the foundation to show there is a reasonable doubt here. It`s possible that she was a victim.

PINSKY: Beth, does any one in the courtroom, as you hear the buzz around the courthouse, think that way? Do you think anyone is seeing it as hmm, I wonder if, maybe, you know, as I hear and learn about abuse and victimizers, maybe Jodi`s the one actually doing the abuse?

KARAS: Well, I`ve actually heard a few people talking about that. And as I took my notes, I`m thinking, well, I can see certain things here that she`s testifying about. Being turned around and used by the state, kind of making this witness theirs. Maybe she`ll end up being neutralized as an expert witness, that is offering something to both sides.

But I do see things relevant to the state`s case and what she has to say.

PINSKY: I think you`re right. Put my panel up on the screen again for everybody.

Show of hands. How many people think Martinez is not going to be harsh with this lady but is going to sort of reel her in to make his case for him? Anybody besides me raising their hand. Show hands.

Michelle --

EIGLARSH: He`s incapable.

PINSKY: Mark, no?

WARD: It`s possible.

PINSKY: OK.

EIGLARSH: He`s going to rip her by the throat, because that`s the only way he knows how. It`s unfortunate. Please, she doesn`t hurt you. Juan, relax, she does not hurt you.

MILLS-FRANCIS: I don`t think he wants it.

WARD: He shouldn`t, though.

MILLS-FRANCIS: He doesn`t want to alienate this jury, and she is a female. She comes across very motherly, very matronly. She`s not hurting him. Actually, she`s help -- she`s helping him.

So I don`t see why he would, you know, dig into her.

PINSKY: Yes, I agree with Karen. Hold on, guys. Next up --

KARAS: He`s not going to rip her unless she gives him reason to.

PINSKY: There you go. Thank you, Beth.

Next up, a woman who was with Jodi the very day after she butchered Travis Alexander. She called the cops. What made her call the cops?

And later, Mark Eiglarsh doesn`t just have crazy ideas about the prosecution. He says he knows why Jodi was acting so bizarrely in the interrogation room.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INTERROGATOR: I know that Travis was either in the shower or just outside the shower when he was shot. And I know somebody who was extremely angry at him, took a knife to him and couldn`t stop. And before you knew it, it was all over, and then you panicked. And then you --

ARIAS: I wouldn`t -- I`ve never been angry, that angry at him -- not enough for that. I`ve been so far angrier at other people, at other ex- boyfriends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Michelle is a psychiatrist, and an expert in psychopath.

And, Michelle, that`s why I like working with you when we`re talking about Jodi Arias. Both you and I believe that there`s some element of psychopathy here, wouldn`t you say?

WARD: Right, absolutely. I mean, she looks like she has some borderline features too. But the overwhelming feature I`m seeing now is this lack of conscience.

PINSKY: That`s right. And I think -- when you and I talk clinically about borderlines and psychopath, I think the viewers here are like Charlie Brown`s teacher or my dog when I give him commands.

But the fact is, we`re talking about somebody with no conscience, whose brain doesn`t work like everybody else`s brain out there.

Joining me now is Clancy Talbot. She was a friend of Travis, knew Jodi and found that Jodi had a temper and she knows what we`re talking about when we describe her as a psychopath. She called the police minutes after she learned that Travis was dead.

Clancy, what did you tell the police?

CLANCY TALBOT, KNEW TRAVIS & JODI: Well, thank you for having me.

And I just wanted to really quickly mention the Travis Alexander Fund that has been set up by Chris Hughes and Taylor Searles (ph) to support the Alexander family. If anybody can go there to donate, that would be so great for this family right now. So TravisAlexanderfund.com.

And basically what happened was, you know, we found out that Travis had been killed. It was about 1:00 in the morning when we found out. The very next day after I had been notified, I called, I was calling Arizona Police Department trying to figure out which police department, ask for, you know, the detective in charge, and I think it was on the 11th, I finally got in touch with someone that could let me know that.

And I left a message for detective Flores that next day. And he actually called ply back about five days later. So we had an interesting discussion whether he called me back.

PINSKY: Now, Clancy, you actually saw Jodi the day after the killing. Did you notice anything unusual?

TALBOT: She`s always unusual. So I mean, she -- when she showed up to Utah she had a different hair color. She had a long sleeved shirt on in June, and it was probably 100 degrees. So I thought that was kind of strange, but, you know, she`s kind of strange. So I didn`t think anything of it.

She walked up and gave me a hug, which I didn`t -- she gave me the creeps any way. So that kind of wasn`t comfortable for me. But -- I mean, looking back on it now, that`s horrible for me.

But we went to dinner after the meeting. And she -- I sat right across from her. She had Band-Aids on her fingers, she, there were a lot of strange things that happened now, that looking back on it, but when she was here she act the like her normal strange self. But she didn`t act anything out of the norm.

She always tried to be able to go to events and things that a lot of - - you`d have to have qualifications to go to, and she didn`t qualify for a lot of them. So, we were going on one that next day and she didn`t -- she said she needed to get back to go to work. And that was kind of strange, because she would always try and come with us. So that was kind of strange to me. And I think that --

PINSKY: Clancy?

TALBOT: Uh-huh?

PINSKY: I`m going to interrupt. And it`s interesting. I`m watching Michelle Ward listening to you. She loves psychopaths.

And when you talk about her being strange, Michelle gets this big grin on her face. And also, the other thing we`re hearing you say is she had poor boundaries. She wouldn`t take no for an answer. She would demand, she would push her way into trips.

WARD: Yes.

PINSKY: We`ve heard this about her before, she had no business -- just belong there, yet she`d just blow through. She also had bizarre excuses as to why she would disappear.

But there`s one story you told my producers I really am fascinated with. So, Michelle, buckle in on this one.

She thought you were cheating with Travis at one time and cornered you in the bathroom and became enraged? Tell us that story.

TALBOT: Well, I don`t know if she thought I was cheating. But I know that she -- I mean, she was jealous of all Travis` friends. It didn`t matter if they were male or female, but, of course, she was, you know, more jealous of female friends that he had. And Travis was like a brother to me. He was a really good friend to me.

And I think she testified on the stand about being all over him and he was all over me. And that wasn`t really the case.

I mean, Travis had his arm locked in my arm. And, you know, there`s a lot of people around. It wasn`t just me and Travis. And I don`t even remember seeing Jodi anywhere around. But the next day, at the event --

WARD: Clancy, I have a question for you.

TALBOT: Uh-huh?

WARD: You talk about their strange behavior. And I`m wondering, did you recognize it then as strange behavior? Or is it in hindsight that you put it all together and think God, she was acting creepy. I mean, people like her are creepy. That`s just the way it is, and a lot of what you`re talking about is this lack of shame.

Did she -- when you saw her the day after she brutally killed Travis, did you recognize a creeper Jodi or was she just Jodi?

TALBOT: Well, the second time I ever saw Jodi, I got the creeps from her. So to me, it`s hard to answer that question. She was always creepy. She gave me a really eerie feeling, something I`ve never felt before. So, the day, you know, after, looking on it, it`s not any different. She`s the same creep.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: I wish -- I wish you all could, I wish you had the, Michelle up there when Clancy was giving that description because Michelle was giving that knowing, uh-huh, one of my peeps, she`s a psychopath.

WARD: Clancy actually describes it quite well.

PINSKY: Well, so that confirms, how people feel, how other people make us feel tells us something diagnostic. So, now, we`re getting more confirmation as Jodi as a psychopath.

But we`re going to bring in Jodi -- excuse me, Clancy back after the break.

And, Clancy, I want to you do two things when we get back. We`re going to listen to one of the last known recordings of your friend. I want you to react to that. And I want you to finish that story about whether she cornered you in the bathroom. That really is fascinating because it`s the only story I`ve heard about her uncontrolled rage.

Later on, we`re also going to talk about a Jodi in quotes flips out. Does any one know what made her whip her hair back and fort and stand on her head? Mark Eiglarsh says he does.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: You know, take Colonel Sanders. He took his chicken recipe. And he went to chicken shack after chicken shack. And he would just say, hey, I have a chicken recipe that I think you`re going to like. And all you have to do is use it and give me a percentage of your profits from every piece of chicken that you sell. He became one of the richest men in the world. And is the reason why I need to lose 10 pounds before Cancun.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward.

Travis Alexander never got to Cancun. He was killed by Jodi Arias -- just days after that recording was made.

Clancy, he was your friend. What is it like to hear his voice now?

TALBOT: It`s hard. It brings everything back to who Travis was, and what he was all about. And, you know, you wanted to be a better person when you were around him. And he wanted you to be the best you you could be. And I wanted everybody to laugh. And he was just a great person.

It`s really hard. And it makes you, you know, know what this family`s going through right now.

PINSKY: Yes. Now, Clancy, we want to say this now. We are, every night, I want everyone to pray for that family because what they`ve had to go through is unconscionable. It`s so sad. So, I`m glad you`re speaking out on their behalf.

I want you to finish that story for me. Tell me about her range when she cornered you in the bathroom. So, one thing no one has really talked about. No one has ever presented her potential. How is it possible? That`s what everyone asks themselves.

You look down the barrel of the -- into the depths of her soul, I imagine, when she was shaking and angry and raged at you for having related to her friend -- your friend. Tell us about that night.

TALBOT: Well, first of all, I don`t think she has a soul, but the next morning is actually when it happened. And I still don`t know how she got me in the restroom by myself. There`s thousands of people there. And she got me in there by myself.

And she just blocked like the door and stood in front of me and kept saying the same thing over and over of -- you know, I just wanted you to know Travis and I are an item now. And I`m not upset with you, but I`m really upset with him. I`m more upset with him than I am with you.

And she was shaking and saying it over and over again. And I already thought she was creepy. And so, you know, with her confronting me in the restroom, it was just really uncomfortable.

Of course, looking back on it now, it`s scary.

PINSKY: Well, it was uncomfortable. But did you fear for your -- scary in retrospect, did you fear for your safety at that time. You said it made the hair stand up on the back of your neck. Did you really think oh, my goodness, what has she gotten me into here?

TALBOT: I mean, I thought about, you know, what, what is she trying to do? What is her point? What -- you know, I don`t understand why she`s so upset.

But one of my friends came in and stopped, you know, and said what are you doing? What`s going on? And so I got to leave. So I don`t know what would have happened.

PINSKY: Wow, wow!

Mark, you had a question for Clancy?

EIGLARSH: I do.

First of all, Clancy, thank you so much for sharing your insight with us. You mentioned earlier that you spoke with the detective and it seemed like there was something interesting that either you shared with him or he shared with you. Can you reveal that to us?

TALBOT: Well, when he called, I don`t know if this is part of, you know, their -- the way they do things or not. But -- I mean, the second I found out -- I knew it was Jodi. I knew she`d been missing for a day. I, you know, was with Ryan Burns at dinner. So I knew her whole schedule.

So I called the detective. And when he called me back I just let him know, it`s her. I know it`s her. And he said, that`s a pretty bold accusation to be accusing someone of. And I -- he wanted to know what proof I had.

And I said I have no proof. All I have is a gut feeling. I know it was her. And, you know, be being a detective --

EIGLARSH: You were certain.

TALBOT: I knew it was her. I knew it was her. And, you know --

PINSKY: We have to leave it at that, Clancy. Anything else that he said that sort put a button on it? Or do we have to leave that top topic?

TALBOT: I -- I mean, that`s pretty much the gist of the conversation. But he got on top of it after that.

PINSKY: Clearly. And, Clancy, thank you again, and thank you for keeping the family in mind here. They have suffered unspeakable loss.

OK, thank you to my panel.

TALBOT: They are a great example to all of us. Thank you.

Next up, Jodi`s interrogation behavior explained.

And later, did this defense`s witness save Jodi? Is he breathing -- did this witness breathe new life into the defense?

We`ll be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am, but before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am, but before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Time for our behavior bureau. That, of course, was Jodi during her interrogation with the police. Back with me, my co-host, Michelle Ward. You see, my whole up there, what`s Mark doing from SpeakToMark.com. What is Mark doing in this panel? well, Mark, step forward, Mark. We want to speak to you, Michelle and I do.

You were speculating about Jodi`s behavior during the interrogation. You have a theory. Give it to us.

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I didn`t have enough last week and I have little pieces here and there. So, I didn`t want to speculate. This weekend, however, I got an e-mail, someone went to my website, SpeakToMark.com, and she was very complimentary at first, so I chose to read on And in there, she started tell me one piece of the puzzle that I just didn`t know.

It was something that she did back in the 1980s that Jodi is doing on the videotape in the interrogation room and I went oh, my gosh. Now, I got it. As if Jodi was telling me what was going on in her mind.

PINSKY: OK, Mark. Mark, let`s look at the video. Pay attention. This starts with a clip from CBS. And then, when we come back, Mark`s going to give us his entire theory. But I did learn something besides your theory. If you guys want Mark to respond to e-mails and Twitter, just compliment his appearance. Watch the tape.

(LAUGHTER)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was not surprised. One of the things she said to me as soon as she saw me was, is there any way I can get my purse so I can get my makeup on.

ARIAS: Any chance you could get my purse?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. We`ll get that. From the house?

ARIAS: Will they bring it to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If somebody goes on and checks public record and they can check it. And they would come up --

ARIAS: But it`s going to be on the news tonight?

You should have at least done your makeup, Jodi, gosh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: OK, Mark. Lay out the theory, and then Michelle, you have at it. Go ahead, Mark.

EIGLARSH: All right. Well, first of all, I asked your producers to include those specific clips because her thought process begins upon arrest. Before she ever gets in that room, she has one request, not to reach out to her own family members or to Travis Alexander`s family, but can I get my purse to put makeup. What`s she so concerned about? Then, we get in the room and she makes it very clear. Can I clean up before I`m booked.

She`s booked because she knows part of the booking process is she`s going to get her mug shot done. Now, all this clearly shows that this narcissist, sociopath, or psychopath is concerned about one thing, that mug shot. But I couldn`t figure out what the physical stuff was about. She`s got the hair flip. We know because most normal people, most gals we`ve seen flip their hair back so their hair looks good.

But the headstand, what was the headstand about. And that`s when Dana from Colorado sent me the e-mail that she in the 1980s, when she was involved in pageants, she, if she didn`t have makeup, they would do the headstand so the blood can flow down through their body to their face to redden their cheeks.

There are also times on the interrogation when she`s rubbing her cheeks. It`s all about looking good for that glamour shot the one that she knows is going to be on the news for everyone to see.

PINSKY: Michelle.

MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I couldn`t agree with you more, Mark. But this is my question for you. She`s a sexual manipulator. She`s the one who introduced all sorts of sexual anal sex to Travis. I think she`s trying to seduce the interrogator as well. She wants him on her side.

PINSKY: I agree. I agree.

EIGLARSH: I agree, but keep in mind that the behavior we`re talking about, the behavior we`re talking about happens when the detective leaves the room. Why is she doing headstands? Why is she rubbing her cheek. Why is she doing the hair flip? Why does she do two hair flip. It`s it`s all about looking good.

PINSKY: Let`s go around the horn. You`ve raised an interesting theory. Let`s bring in the rest of the behavior bureau. Let`s start with Cheryl. Go around the horn here. Cheryl, go ahead.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Mark, I think that`s brilliant, I have to say. You know, I`ve been so struck by this mug shot because it looks like a high school yearbook picture. I mean the tilted head and the sweet little smile and the whole bit.

And it really seems like vacillating between like the coquettish kind of sexy look and the little girl look, whichever one is going to be effective in reeling people in. And I really do think that this was trying to get color in her cheeks. I think you`re right.

PINSKY: Yes. But that`s the key, those reeling people in, whether to the photo or the cop was sitting across the table from her. Wendy -- excuse me, Patti Wood, author of -- interestingly, a book called "Snap: Making the Most of First Impressions," she was trying to make an impression. You were shaking your head vigorously. Do you agree?

PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Yes, absolutely. And she`s a person who`s used her feminine beauty to empower herself. So, it makes perfect sense that she would do it in the interrogation to make herself feel stronger and more powerful over these incredibly stressful circumstances.

And the hair flip, that`s primping. That`s clear primping cue to prepare herself to be powerful in that interrogation.

PINSKY: Wendy, have at it.

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: OK, Mark. Welcome to the girls` club. So, now, you know about our pink cheek trick.

(LAUGHTER)

EIGLARSH: I didn`t know. I didn`t know.

WALSH: But I`m going to give you another trick that we use sometimes.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Go ahead.

WALSH: There`s another trick we use sometimes. You know, when your hair is really flat, it`s because the hair follicles at the root, our gravity`s pulling them down. So, if you stand on your head for a while, it makes your hair look thicker and fuller, because they go --

PINSKY: Wendy.

WALSH: That`s why we go upside down to blow dry our hair.

PINSKY: OK. Everybody, this particular panel, Mark.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But I`m just saying, this panel goes under the title of sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke. Thank you, Mark, for bringing us back to reality. Thank you to the panel.

EIGLARSH: Thank you, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Next up, we are grading the defense witness. Did she save Jodi or did she help save Jodi from the death sentence?

And later, it appears the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, is sort of famous in Arizona. I will ask my jurors about his rock star status. Stay with us.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark." Our bold accusation which really goes to the heart of the case against Jodi Arias. Jodi is obsessed. We`ve got our in studio jury and our virtual jury at home, HLN.com#Jodijury, who will render a verdict by the end of the show. Guilty or not guilty? Our bold accusation. Jodi is obsessed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He called me a skank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In front of other people?

ARIAS: In front of his roommate, Josh Ward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Mr. Alexander call you other names besides skank in a joking manner?

ARIAS: Yes. He called me Pollyanna. He called me porn star.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: It is time for our trial report card. I`m back again with my co-host this week, Michelle Ward. So, how did the defense`s last witness, abuse expert, Alyce LaViolette, do on the stand? Giving out the grades tonight, HLN anchor, Christie Paul and author of "Love Isn`t Supposed To Hurt," Mark Eiglarsh, Cheryl Arutt, and Judge Karen Mills-Francis.

Now, everybody hold your grades until the end, please. Judge Karen, how did this witness do today on the stand?

JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, TV`S "JUDGE KAREN": I think she did better than the last defense witness did. She`s very personable. She`s very knowledgeable. She`s giving this jury a background and information that I think is absolutely useless, because I think this whole domestic violence thing wasn`t the best way for the defense to go.

But considering that they`re putting forth this battered wife syndrome, a battered spouse syndrome, she was pretty good.

PINSKY: Christie, this is such an important topic. Is Jodi presenting herself as a victim demeaning the topic and is this witness playing into that?

CHRISTIE PAUL, HLN ANCHOR: I think, you know, I`ve heard from a lot of people on Twitter and Facebook, Dr. Drew, who are not happy that she took this route, because they say it`s an insult to people who really have been battered. But I`ve got to tell you, I think this witness is doing an awful lot of good for her case.

And the reason is she`s bringing up things that if there`s one juror, one that can relate to abuse in any manner, whether they`d experienced it or somebody else had experienced it. She`s talking about the shame, the humiliation, the wanting to hide it, not wanting to make it public, how it changes your demeanor, how it changes your psyche, and how you would react in ways that you wouldn`t normally react and that might be unexplainable. I think she`s making a lot of head way for the defense.

PINSKY: Cheryl, I agree with Christie, that folksy style and stuff. And I love that she`s giving the world a primer on domestic violence and what it looks like. But it`s a very one-dimensional sort of a primer, which I`m glad the world is receiving, but I don`t think it brings up the complexities of the Jodi Arias case. Do you agree?

ARUTT: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, the thing that I think is fantastic about what`s going on here is that I think she`s really letting people know about domestic violence and letting people understand the cycle of violence in a way that people really haven`t known about it before. Now, I wish she were talking about it in terms of Jodi being the abuser and not Travis being the abuser, because that does seem to be the better fit.

PINSKY: Yes. We`ll talk about that here, because that`s, in fact, the fact here. She`s a defense witness. We`re not going to hear that.

ARUTT: Of course. Of course. She`s not going to say that. And I -- because she -- I have to say, Alyce LaViolette knows her stuff. She really is an expert in domestic violence. I`m watching her, Drew, because this is my area also. I`m watching her lay out these things and talking about some of the less commonly understood nuances of this --

PINSKY: Yes, the nuances.

ARUTT: -- to plug in later some ways that she can connect it. And, we`ll see if she can do it.

PINSKY: Mark, you agree?

EIGLARSH: Yes. I think that she did an excellent job explaining to all of us why O.J. Simpson did what he did. And I`m not referring to taking back his sports memorabilia. OK? But what she`s not going to be able to do is link this back to Jodi truly being a victim in this case. And that`s where they`ll fall short.

WARD: Right.

PINSKY: Christie, help me with that a little bit. I mean, you and I both spent a lot of time communicating with the HLN audience. How do we get them to learn about this topic, be willing to learn about it, and yet, not sort of buy into that being, this being, in fact, precisely what happened to Jodi?

PAUL: Well, that`s the thing. I mean, they`re absolutely right, everything that they`ve said. She`s talking in generalities. She`s not talking about Jodi, and she can`t talk about Jodi, because she hasn`t even interviewed Jodi. So, that`s not even possible for her. But she is talking about a situation that a lot of people have dealt with behind closed doors.

And because of that, she`s making some head way. You know, I got an e-mail from Grace Wong (ph), who`s one of the producers in the courtroom, and she said even the jurors who are prolific note takers are completely pretty much transfixed on her. She`s doing such a good job.

PINSKY: I heard that, too.

PAUL: So, you can tell she`s a good communicator. She`s looking right at them. She`s having a conversation with them. And she brings a lot of credibility. Whether it will be enough, I don`t know. But this is probably their best bet to keep her off death row.

PINSKY: Mark.

EIGLARSH: The problem is the elephant in the room, although, she`s not saying it is, the jurors are supposed to make an inference that what she`s talking about then pertains to Jodi Arias. And while she`s not saying it, it`s the elephant in the room and it`s unfair. It really is.

PINSKY: Right. And plus, she`s building a case about a guy like Travis, Michelle, and you know, what would happen with a guy raised by drug addicted parents and that she sees violence. It`s kind of unfair, isn`t it, Michelle?

WARD: Well, and we need reasonable doubt. That`s all they need is reasonable doubt and not she`s laying the foundation and allowing the jurors to make the inference. And this is the other thing I wanted to say about this witness. As a trial consultant, we know that jurors don`t like to be spoken down to. They don`t care about your Ph.D. and that you`re an expert in whatever you`re an expert in. They want to be taught, and that she is doing a fantastic job of teaching.

PINSKY: That is where her strength is. All right. Let`s give the grade. Mark, what`s the grade?

EIGLARSH: B.

PINSKY: B. Mark gives a B. Cheryl, what is your grade?

ARUTT: You know, I`m giving her an A-. I think she did a fabulous job today. We`ll see what happens on cross and all of that, but A-.

PINSKY: OK. Christie, what do you say?

PAUL: Yes. I give her a B as well. And I would be apt to give her an A just because she is herself doing a great job, but this is a tough task she has ahead of her, because she can`t speak specifically to Jodi, I`ve got to give her a B.

PINSKY: Karen, your grade?

MILLS-FRANCIS: Though I consider her a totally irrelevant witness to this particular case, I think she`s doing a good job at what she`s trained to do. And I give her a B.

PINSKY: Michelle, what say to you?

WARD: You know, I can`t give Bs until I see that cross, but I`ll give her a solid B+.

PINSKY: B+ I, unfortunately -- although, I agree with everything -- everyone is saying and the folksy style and the way she speaks them, I have so many questions about her conclusions in the case she`s building. I`m actually giving her a C. But I`m leaving my day (ph) opportunity to improve her grade. She may end up with an A for me some day because she`s got the good. I just don`t like the way she`s approaching this.

Next up -- thank you panel -- my jurors weigh in. One of them is spending her vacation in Arizona at the trial. How many of you would do that?

And who has become a local celebrity in Arizona. Check it out. You might not believe it. We`ll be right back with that story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: It is time for Drew`s jury. Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Joining us from outside the courthouse, our regular, Katie Wick, and I was thinking to myself, Katie, when I was talking about who might be a local celebrity, I thought my viewers might think it was you, but that`s not who we`re talking about. You are also joined by Somer Hogan. Somer is a mom, vacationing in Arizona from Denver.

Mom, I guess, your husband spent the day at a museum and you spent the day in court. Somer, was it worth it?

SOMER HOGAN, DR. DREW "JUROR": Absolutely. I`ve been following the case at home. My husband and I actually met in Arizona. We lived here a while back and we lived near Mesa, which sort of drew my attention to this case when it came to trial. So, I`ve been following it as much as I can at home with three little boys to chase around.

And, I never imagined by the time we got here for spring break, we would still be in trial. But since we are, I begged my husband to let me spend the day down here and he happily of liked.

PINSKY: And tell us. What did you learn? What was it like? Was it everything you expected?

HOGAN: It was everything I expected. Yes. It`s very interesting to see, you know, these people in person and realize that they`re human beings versus watching them on a TV screen. But it was fascinating to, you know, be a part of this trial and to see it happen in person.

PINSKY: Did you form any different opinions now having been there in person?

HOGAN: No, not really. It`s interesting, Jodi is much more frail and small in person than I expected her to be, having seen her on TV. But beyond that, you know, listening to the testimony today, it didn`t really change my mind about what I think about this case.

PINSKY: Michelle, did you have a question for our jury?

WARD: I do. I`m very curious about Somer`s impression of the process, but I`m more curious about -- you`re spending your vacation in the courtroom? And I heard you`re not alone.

(LAUGHTER)

WARD: I heard there`s lots of people who said forget Disneyland, I`m going to the Jodi Arias trial. Please help me understand this.

(LAUGHTER)

HOGAN: You know, there are lots of people down there seeing the trial. Some of them are locals. Some aren`t. You know, I just wanted one day, just give me one day to actually go see this for myself and, you know, just be kind of part of what`s going on versus watching it on TV. So --

WARD: Fair enough.

HOGAN: -- I`m getting vacation in Arizona as well.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Enjoy.

HOGAN: Thank you.

PINSKY: Katie, back to you. Everyone is going after the attorneys after court. My understanding is, I want you to describe the scene outside the courtroom for us, but my understanding is the defense attorneys like need protection from all sorts of threats and somebody else has become a celebrity.

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Yes. It`s quite different, actually. You don`t see a lot of people going up to the defense and I would like an autograph or a photo with you. You see a lot of people more. I`d say the last week or so, I`ve seen a lot of people waiting outside the courthouse to get a photo with Juan Martinez.

And I just wanted to mention, though, Dr. Drew, I think there`s two different groups that really appreciate Juan Martinez. I think there`s the group that likes him because of his star status, so to speak, but then, there`s the other group that really respects him for how wonderful of a job he does representing Travis.

I mean, he`s like the light in a very dark place right now. And he`s Travis` voice. In essence, he`s sort of like our voice, too. And he`s steadfast. And he doesn`t really care what people say. He does care -- I don`t want to say he doesn`t care, but he doesn`t really let that interfere with the road he`s on in seeking justice for Travis. And I think there is a big -- a huge amount of respect for him for that.

PINSKY: Somer, did you ask for a picture with Juan Martinez?

HOGAN: No. I didn`t get to see Juan Martinez outside of court. So, I didn`t ask for a picture.

PINSKY: Oh, you would have. Michelle, you heard that. She would have --

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

HOGAN: Hey, had I had the opportunity, of course, I would have. Yes. But Katie is right. He`s absolutely Travis` only voice. Yes.

PINSKY: Well, yes. We`ve heard -- and again, we`ve got to keep our thoughts and prayers with the family. I want to take a break. I`m going to take a call with my jurors. Be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m with my co-host, Michelle Ward, from investigation discovery "Stalked." We were talking to my jurors, Katie Wick and Somer Hogan. And I said we`d go out to a caller. So, let us all do so. Jan in Florida. Jan, go right ahead.

JAN, FLORIDA: I want this woman convicted and sentenced to death. I don`t care whether she lives or dies, but I don`t think she ought to have the right to be having sex with her girlfriend and participating in music contests.

PINSKY: So, Katie, I think --

JAN: What do you think of that?

PINSKY: Well, I`m going to ask my jurors that, I guess, Jodi lass a life behind bars and people are objecting to that. Is there any sense of that in the courtroom?

WICK: Absolutely. People are infuriated that really it`s kind of a little community group that she`s in now. And the death -- if she gets the death -- if she gets sentenced to death, it`s going to be very different. Twenty-three hours confined to a cell with one hour out a day, it`s going to be a completely different lifestyle for Jodi. And this is -- I think she`s starting to realize that time`s ticking.

And today, Dr. Drew, is the first day I didn`t see, it was very interesting, any questions put into that jury box. I didn`t see one. And the jurors are paying attention, but I tend to disagree that it`s because they`re really -- this witness is helping the defense. I think it`s just because what she`s doing, I think, that people are very interested.

And I think, in essence, they`re sort of -- what she`s saying is fascinating. I think what they`re doing is kind of applying it to their own life as they sit there. I don`t think they`re really even thinking about Jodi and Travis. Yes.

PINSKY: But I think they will. I think she`s building a case --

WICK: Hmm.

PINSKY: -- that later will apply. They will have questions, I suspect. Ladies, thank you so much. I`m just sitting here thinking, this may be a new sort of therapy for moms with three kids which, by the way, hats off to you, that need to get away.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Just go to a murder trial. Michelle, thank you, as always. I really appreciate you work with us this week. Thank you all for watching. Reminder, you can like us on Facebook at Facebook.com/DrDrewHLN, also at Twitter, DrDrewHLN.

"HLN After Dark" is next. I will see you there as one of the expert witnesses with Vinnie and Ryan. It starts right now.

END