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Jodi on Trial: Loving It?
Aired March 27, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias international edition. The legal spectacle gone global. Interest gone as far away as Australia. Isn`t it the tears?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: My dad is not doing well. He doesn`t seem to have very long to live, and he always says that.
PINSKY: The trauma.
ARIAS: I had a nervous breakdown once.
PINSKY: The tragedy of all this. I wonder if Jodi knows the whole world, in fact, is watching. And is she loving every second of this? She`s had more than her 15 seconds of fame and the question is: will she be infamous forever?
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Indeed, let`s get started.
Lots to get into this evening. Good evening.
My co-host this week is Michelle Ward. She is not only a criminal psychologist. She`s also a clinical neuroscientist and trial -- let me get this right, Michelle -- trial --
MICHELLE WARD, CO-HOST: Consultant?
PINSKY: Consultant, exactly. She is the host of "Stalked" on investigation recovery.
So, the question we`re asking is -- is Jodi loving every second of this trial, even though there`s so much at stake, we`re talking about her every night, millions of you are.
Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She reported to me she was very sensitive to the noise in the prison. She was aware of people moving around. She never had a problem sleeping. She was a very sound sleeper. And here, every little sound and noise would disturb her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you mind if I approach?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not at all, not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As I age, it`s harder to see from that distance.
INVESTIGATOR: You act just like everybody who I accused of doing a crime, who did it.
ARIAS: I`m not going to change how I act.
INVESTIGATOR: No. Obviously, you can`t change what you`re acting (ph).
ARIAS: No, I mean, I am who I am.
(INAUDIBLE) porn star thing or put on extra make up --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
INVESTIGATOR: If somebody goes on and checks public record, they can check it. They would come up with any --
ARIAS: But it`s going to be on the news tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was scared -- scared about what had happened and scared about what she had done. She was scared. She had absolutely no experience with police interrogation before.
ARIAS: Is this recorded at all or should we?
INVESTIGATOR: I don`t know if there`s a recording here.
AIRAS: I don`t know if these are voice recorders. I noticed them. Do you have audio?
INVESTIGATOR: So, you remember me?
ARIAS: Of course I do.
INVESTIGATOR: I traveled all the way up here to talk to you.
PINSKY: Joining us, attorney Lauren Lake, forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt and Beth Karas for HLN "In Session", she is at the courthouse in Arizona.
Now, Beth, all day long, HLN has been reporting court was canceled today. Jodi had a headache. Is that the whole thing?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes. Not much happened today. Everyone was assembled in the courtroom, ready for the jury to come ion, the witness was there, (INAUDIBLE) was going to continue her direct examination, then the judge`s assistant came in, and said court will not be in session, we cannot go on, did not give a reason. We only learned later today Jodi Arias had a headache, really a bad migraine. Apparently she was feeling quite sick, she thought she get to her stomach. We don`t want that happening in the courtroom. And so, the judge adjourned for the day.
PINSKY: We already had emeses in the courtroom, thank you. That was in the peanut gallery.
OK, well, here`s our court is still in session. We are turning the tables. My guests will ask me expert-witness style questions about Jodi and what she can be up to.
And let`s keep this analysis going with Beth. What`s -- you`re first, Beth?
KARAS: What are the causes and symptoms of a migraine that would be so severe the judge was going to cancel court? I mean, we`re getting close to the end date. She told the jury it would wrap up by April 11th, obviously that`s not happening. She told them that December.
What could be so bad with her head that court would be cancelled for a precious day, when Jodi`s not even on the stand.
PINSKY: Well, let`s be fair. Headaches can be disabling. Migraine headaches, when you really talk about a classic migraine -- it`s something associated with visual disturbances, it`s usually unilateral. But there are complex presentation of headaches, again, complex causes of headaches, often emotional triggers, lo and behold. It`s interesting, isn`t it, that she didn`t have migraines when she was on the stand really under the scrutiny of the prosecution.
But I got to give it, you know, the benefit of the doubt and say, all right, maybe she had a severe headache. It can be associated with nausea and vomiting. We certainly don`t want that again in the courtroom.
Lauren Lake, your turn?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You touched on my question at the top of the hour, Dr. Drew. We`ve heard a lot today about Juan Martinez signing autographs and maybe becoming a star. But what I want to know is, what do you think about Jodi? Do you think that she`s in some way enjoying being on stage or star of some sort in this courtroom drama given even what she`s facing, you know, the death penalty?
PINSKY: There`s no doubt in my mind that she is. Think about Casey Anthony, how we speculated about her, and we kept hearing about show she enjoyed the spotlight. Think about the "48 Hour" interview, think about how she preened during simply even police interrogation, there is -- you know, Cheryl, back me up on this.
We`ve been talking about her having not just psychopathy, but a borderline quality, which is a narcissistic disorder and we think this -- all this behavior and, by the way, denial that she`s in serious trouble fits with these narcissistic spectrum problems, right?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST It does fit with those things, Dr. Drew. And do you think she`s loving every minute of this attention? Do you think that it`s possible that this headache is really just more of her drama, more of her calling the shots? After all, she didn`t tell Travis she had a headache.
PINSKY: I absolutely do. I mean, as you and I do, I mean, one of the things that borderlines, is something projective identification, which is when they`re feeling something they project it into other people. It`s a subtle point. It`s a hard thing to understand, but they can create chaos and turmoil with their actions, with their choices. And I think this is part of that whole spectrum.
Michelle, what have you got?
WARD: Well, I have a quick question for you, and it`s a little bit different. But you clinically deal with people like Jodi, people who target and fixate on a person, and often, that`s a caregiver. I want to know what you do, Dr. Drew, when they fixate on you, because I know they do.
PINSKY: That`s a great question, because that is something that if you don`t have skill and training and by the way, I haven`t done your own work in therapy, you can get in a very serious trouble. It`s exactly what happened with Dr. Samuels, where he -- it was pretty clear as you sort of watch him on the stand that he`s yet kind of a fluidity of his feelings and when you`re dealing with people that have porous boundaries like Jodi, you`ve got to be very clear on where you are, what you`re feeling at all times.
I`ll tell you what I do, Michelle? You know what I do?
WARD: Tell me.
PINSKY: This is, in fact, what I do. I don`t go in the room alone. That`s what I do. I always have a nurse with me and she is also very skilled at dealing with that population and will hit me in the ribs if she sees me getting sucked into something. Really a good question.
Next up: Jodi has problems with everyone, it seems like, doesn`t it? Not herself. The "Behavior Bureau" is here to take a good look at that.
And later, the Travis Alexander his friends would like you to know. We`ve got some really interesting footage. Take a look at that, too.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: What factors influenced your having a memory problem?
ARIAS: Usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the same.
MARTINEZ: You weren`t going to put with that, were you?
ARIAS: Put up with what?
MARTINEZ: What is it that we`re talking about.
ARIAS: Which part we put up with.
MARTINEZ: Are you having problems understanding again what`s going on?
ARIAS: Sometimes, because you`re going in circles.
MARTINEZ: I was saying no and you interrupted me. That`s not what I said.
Am I allowed to tell what I`m trying to say?
If I pass a lie detector test, would that help me?
INVESTIGATOR: It could help you.
ARIAS: You`re so weird anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is time for our "Behavior Bureau."
Back with my co-host this week: psychologist, Michelle Ward.
And, Michelle, I really want to pick up with that question you left me off with, which was how do I manage patients like Jodi? Look at the prosecutor trying to deal with her slipperiness. So, there`s slippery and then poor Dr. Samuels found out how porous and suck you into things. I want to talk about that.
She seems to find fault with others, but then kind of works them in interesting ways, you agree with me?
WARD: Well, absolutely. When I look at that tape, I want to scream, who the heck do you think you are, girl?
But then I have to remember, this is so typical. This self-love, this narcissism and then highly critical of everyone else -- this is how she got way with convincing herself it was OK to kill Travis. He had it coming, like you`ve said before.
PINSKY: He had it coming.
WARD: And I`m justified.
PINSKY: And I`m in denial that something bad could happen to me because of it, because of all that thinking about how justified she was in the behavior.
WARD: And important. She`s important.
PINSKY: He had it coming.
Joining us to discuss this, psychologist, Judy Ho, also Patti Wood, she`s the author of "Snap: Making the Most of First Impressions." Forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt is still with us.
So, Cheryl, here`s this woman, killed her ex-boyfriend and yet she`s still sitting in judgment of others. Do you agree with Michelle?
ARUTT: I totally agree with Michelle. I think that she can sit back and kind of point out all these things other people are doing. It`s like hello, look what you just did. And it`s kind of like gaslighting. You know that movie where -- it`s an old, old movie, but the guy tries to make any girl think she`s crazy by denying her reality.
This is what Jodi does with people. She acts like things are totally normal and no big deal that she`s doing. You`re supposed to go along with it. But she likes to focus on what other people are doing to throw them off base.
PINSKY: You know what I want to do. I`m going to start compiling a list of the sort of strategies that somebody like Jodi uses so people can understand. People can keep asking, how? How was this possible?
But slipperiness, gaslighting -- Patti, want to add to that list?
PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Yes, she takes great delight on it, that duper`s delight, that little grin on her face that I think is really going to hone in for the jury, she enjoys the process.
Martinez does a very good job of that back and forth body language of wearing her down so she can`t perform. You notice that behaviors for most of her testimony was, here`s the question, let me answer it for the jury. Here`s the question, turning away.
He draws her in. So, she had to attack, that was her technique this time. She had to attack him.
PINSKY: Interesting. And, Jodi, thank you for joining us on our panel here.
You get what I`m talking about here in terms of how -- my nurse talking about going in the room with a patient, my nurse say they`re like an octopus. They`ll come out and they get you and they suck you in. Help people understand what that is.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, it`s exactly what she`s doing, sucking everybody in and having them play into her little games. I mean, here we see Jodi denying the things worse about herself and putting them on everybody else. And she seems very comfortable with that but that is absolutely a well thought out, preconceived strategy she is using.
But she is getting frustrated and she is getting a little bit floundered, because that`s why there`s so much rage in the way that she`s kind of coming back at the prosecutor because she is so shaken by it.
PINSKY: OK, then the rage and then we`ve got tears -- sobbing during the police interrogation, sobbing on the stand. I think we have -- do we have footage of this in the control room? Look at this. Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Ma`am, were you crying when you were shooting him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
MARTINEZ: You`re the one that did this, right?
INTERROGATOR: I think you`re feeling the reality of the moment now.
ARIAS: No, I`m just feeling all of the things that I`m going to potentially miss out on.
And my dad is not doing well. He doesn`t think he has very long to live. My grandparents aren`t getting any younger and I just have an awesome family.
INVESTIGATOR: Jodi --
PINSKY: I actually think that was a genuine question from Martinez, which is, what are you crying about? You`re the one that did these horrible things, right?
Judy, pick it up there.
HO: Well, she is deflecting like crazy, Dr. Drew, she is putting it back, because once the attention is on her, never mind the fact she murdered somebody, my goodness, poor me, I`m the victim, now I`m going to lose out on this fun time that I could be having with my family and they`re not feeling well and they`re aging and, oh, no, she`s just really pulling at the heartstrings and trying to create a smokescreen right now.
PINSKY: Right, gaslighting as Cheryl said. And Patti, does the language bear that up, the body language?
WOOD: Absolutely. Babies start fake crying about eight months and Jodi continues to use fake tears, real tears, your eyebrows go up. There`s a pouting of your lips. You notice the sound.
The words are very logical. When you`re really crying, your neo cortex is not involved in the process. You can`t speak logically like that.
There`s a real disconnect between the fake tears and what she`s saying as well that signify that they`re fake.
PINSKY: Michelle, put a little button on that for me, will you?
WARD: Well, you know what, people who study people like Jodi have the saying that a psychopath or somebody like Jodi without a conscience, they can learn the words of an emotion but never learn the music of an emotion. That`s what Patti is kind of saying. She knows what to say. She knows what to do, but she does not really feel it.
PINSKY: Next up, is the defense vilifying Travis` for his troubled childhood. Our "Behavior Bureau" is on that case.
And later, the Travis that those that knew him and loved him want you to know and see. A video you will only see tonight on DR. DREW ON CALL.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi is up there talking about her background but Travis isn`t here to talk about his and his is 10 times worse than anything he could try to even make up. You know, he was really the victim of being born into a broken family. His mom was a drug user aggressively. He was homeless with her at times.
I remember he was telling me one of his memories was living underneath an actual cover on a truck port in the backyard somewhere and actually having visions of his mom literally going to the bathroom in a 5 gallon bucket.
So, this is where he came from to deal with all of that, deal with those struggles, deal with that baggage and then decide to make something of himself rather than use it as an excuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There you go. That is a friend of Travis Alexander bringing to life for us the difficult childhood that Travis went through. And, in fact, he went on to talk about his admiration for Travis and what he had been able to overcome and what he was becoming in his life.
Back with my co-host, psychologist Michelle Ward, and our "Behavior Bureau".
Cheryl, will vilifying Travis for his difficult childhood -- let me frame this if you`ll remember, the defense painted a picture of someone with a childhood and they painted Travis`s childhood. Doing that, does that work for defense or is that going to backfire?
ARUTT: I think it`s going to backfire, Dr. Drew. I think Travis did such a great job of making choices that were different and choosing a different kind of life. You know, when I hear the defense expert talk about how if your parents were drug users, you`re more likely to be a violent abuser. That`s only if you become a drug user, too, isn`t it? I mean, what do you think about that?
PINSKY: Well, I think, and I`m going to bring Judy into this part of the discussion, I think -- and put the whole panel up there for me and you will probably all be nodding your head at this. Yes, you could become a victimizer or become the victim, or you can go back and forth between the two roles.
But I would say, hey, this guy is probably -- judging how he`s so caring about people, so involved, this guy is more co-dependent. He`s more likely sucked in by the octopus.
Judy, you agree?
HO: Yes, absolutely, Dr. Drew. And, you know, the thing is, he did gray up in chaos. Some people can get out of that and make changes as adults. But there`s a subconscious of himself probably a little bit attracted to chaos, maybe sees he`s not quite good enough for a stable life and there might be some self-sabotage going on.
And I think because he had this relationship with Jodi, she kind of represents some of that chaos, don`t you think?
And men that have emotional abuse are more likely to get sexual compulsion and sucked into sexual addiction even. I`m not saying he was a sex addict, we never established that. But that my have what set him up predisposed for these kinds of predispositions.
Patti, what are your thoughts?
WOOD: Every time you see a photo of him and he has that wonderful smile and he`s always going forward, it shows his actual confidence and his joy in life. I think that particular image is reaching us as the audience.
PINSKY: Yes. Thankfully, because there`s so much vilification of Travis in the courtroom.
Michelle, let`s finish this panel up. What have you got?
WARD: Well, I agree with you, Dr. Drew.
And I think that, you know, Travis`s story, a story of redemption and second chances. You can see how he`s likely to give somebody a second chance like Jodi even though she`s been misbehaving so badly. He really believes in people and wants them to be the best they can be. And wants them to be the best the can be and why he`s in this mess.
PINSKY: Yes, but there`s a warning here, all of you, you guys will agree with me -- that a real liability is going to come out in our interpersonal lives. We can be doing great everywhere else but liability is in our interpersonal life and that`s what Jodi is going to be preying on. Do you guys agree?
ARUTT: The mess is going to be somewhere.
PINSKY: That`s right. There you go. Thank you. A great panel.
Next, Travis on tape, we`re going to show you the man so missed by his friends, it will be a video you will see only here only tonight.
Later, we`ve got a new juror keeping up with the trial, get this, from Australia. Don`t want to miss that either.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: It`s kind of silly but I used to always joke that regardless of what the Bible says, and, yes, I`m Christian, I just live my life by the 10 commandments and those are my rules, ta da-da da, you know? Thou shalt not this or that, but it doesn`t say thou shall not fornicate. So, I just used to joke about that.
MARTINEZ: You remember the first time you and she had sex, don`t you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do remember, yes.
MARTINEZ: And she was very aggressive, wasn`t she?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were both aggressive.
MARTINEZ: At some point, you and she enjoyed on two occasions (EXPLETIVE DELETED) right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Possibly once.
ARIAS: I really would like to marry a return missionary but someone like you, someone who can be freaky. I just worry about that. There are plenty of nice people out there. I worry that I might feel like a wilting flower.
I went out with my friend, Abe. And we -- he drinks. He just got a Maker`s Mark, I think was his drink and I got cranberry juice and we talked forever. We talked about politics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINKSY: Oh, friend Abe comes up again. And Jodi said she wanted somebody freaky.
Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Also, with us Mark from speaktomark.com and Lauren Lake and the very Abe referenced on the tape was on the phone and mentioned in that clip because he dated Jodi and they had a little tryst in my hometown in Pasadena and Abe knew Travis.
Abe, you are mentioned throughout this trial and here described as a friend -- I love that -- and had a Maker`s Mark that night and 2 1/2 ounces of God knows what. What are your thoughts on what I just heard?
ABDELHADI: You know, it`s kind of what it was. We didn`t, you know, preach unrequited love to each other or whatever. I mean, we just basically went out and it just blows my mind that she remembers I had a maker`s mark, which is true.
That is kind of my poison and that was like, what, seven years ago, but she can`t remember anything else until she comes to at the Hoover dam like an episode of "MacGyver." It just blows my mind. The audacity of the entire thing blows my mind.
PINSKY: So, you mean, the fog didn`t set in during your date with her? You didn`t conveniently have a fog?
ABDELHADI: No. I didn`t have a fog. You know, I remember what happened. And you know, we -- yes, we started off friends and, you know, whatever was whatever, but I mean, that she can remember my drink. I don`t even remember what she had. I know she drank something. I remember paying for it.
PINSKY: That`s what`s so telling. And also she`s describing you as a friend and then -- all kinds of thing. I`m going to go to my attorneys. Mark Eiglarsh, you`ve been listening to this whole conversation this evening, and particularly, that last footage of interrogation. You got anything to add to this conversation?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I actually had not seen that one little clip. It would seem innocuous, but just like Abe just said, her whole defense is predicated upon not knowing or remembering key portions of a traumatic evening, yet, she remembers things that would make rain man admire her.
EIGLARSH: It`s extraordinary the detail that this woman remembers. What drink? I don`t remember what my wife and I drank for dinner together. It`s --
PINSKY: Yes, I know. That`s what I said. I don`t remember breakfast. Michelle, do you want to ask Abe something?
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I do. And I know a lot of people ask Abe really squishy questions, and I`m sure that`s irritating, but I have a very scientific question for Abe. I want to know if he ever felt like smacking her, because she elicits rage out of me. And I need to know how he felt dating with her.
ABDELHADI: Well, I mean, we went out, and before we went out, there wasn`t a lot of depth there. We didn`t really know each other that well, very surfacy, very superficial. I didn`t really want to have (INAUDIBLE) smack her until after when we were quote/unquote "friends" because then she would do these things that kind of drove me crazy and let`s pretend like, well, why? Why are you so upset and I would kind of get into a fit.
Of course, I`m upset because this is not what adults do. Why are you doing X, Y, Z, and then she would try to back off and make it sounds -- this adult disclosure information that Travis should know and all this nonsense. She was a silly person. And then -- pulling this stuff with the prosecutor, it`s insulting.
PINSKY: Right. And Michelle, I saw you shaking your head vigorously. That`s the sort of stuff that your people that you study, too (ph), right?
WARD: Absolutely. I mean, that`s why we all -- we watch these videos and we see her talking about her being abused. And when meanwhile, look at her, she`s like a dominatrix in these tapes.
PINSKY: Thank you. There you go. Now, listen, we`re going to switch down to Travis. I want to play a video for you that we have obtained. It`s exclusively for this program this evening. It is Travis doing, of all things, the chicken dance. But you can see Jodi darting in and out of the frame. She`s actually snapping photos of him.
Lauren, I haven`t had a chance to hear from you yet. You know, when you see Travis, you see the way the defense is painting him, you and hear from all the people that love him so much, how far does the defense expect to get with their strategy? Are they just trying to save her life?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s their job. And as much as people want to make defense attorneys Satan sidekicks, I always say to people, imagine if it was your daughter, your son, your brother, your husband, you would want the defense attorney to be working vigorously to defend them under the law.
That`s why we have scales of justice. If the defense attorney isn`t doing their job, we`re off balance and having a felony issue and be doing this, you know, all over again or be in real big trouble.
ABDELHADI: Yes. This isn`t exactly "A Few Good Men" either, though. Let`s be real.
PINSKY: What`s that Abe?
ABDELHADI: This isn`t exactly "A Few Good Men" where it`s dicey and the evidence is in question. This is cut and drive. We got artwork. We got literature. We`ve got a person who`s actually admitted doing it the --
LAKE: That issue we talked about before, Dr. Drew, it`s not about whether she did it, it`s whether or not jury is going to decide is she going to die for it?
EIGLARSH: And Drew, let me jump in here.
PINSKY: Yes. As Lauren says, if the system functioning properly.
EIGLARSH: Yes. And let me just add one thing. Listen, they`re fighting for her, but I am confident that she has had four years of listening to them, make it very clear to her that her chances of getting 12 people, all addicted to gullible to go along with this defense theory, is only theoretically possible. It`s so low, so remote it approaches almost no real value.
And I believe she`s smart enough to know that. I think she`s just doing the best that she can. She accepts her fate. She knows she`s going to be in prisoner idol for the rest of her life, but she`s got to go through the motions, do this thing, and hope they don`t sentence her to death.
PINSKY: Prisoner idol. Very good, Mark. Let the call in and vote. Cheryl, do you want to finish this --
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Can I just say the chicken dance, really? I mean, when I heard that Jodi was snapping pictures of Travis dancing, I thought it was something sexy or something. She`s running around taking pictures of him doing the chicken dance. I mean, how really this is --
EIGLARSH: What`s wrong with that?
ARUTT: It`s not a sexy dance.
PINSKY: At one point, I`ll tell you what, though. It makes sense to me, because at one point in their relationship, they probably did idealize each other. They probably -- and then the intensity set in and then pathology set in and then he tried to leave, and now, we`re into trouble.
ARUTT: All I can think is how relieved Abe must be that she didn`t make him her mark.
PINSKY: Well, guys, we got to stop it right there.
Later on our jury has gone global. You`re going to meet the ultimate trial fan who brings international insight all the way from Australia.
And, we`ve been talking about the defense. Do Jodi and her attorney, Jennifer Wilmot, make a good team? We`re actually going to grade the defense after the break.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold accusation not against Jodi Arias tonight but against Travis Alexander. The accusation, Travis was a sexual deviant. We`ve got 12 jurors in studio. We`ve got you, our virtual jury. HLNTVcom#Jodijury.
By the end of the hour, a verdict of guilty or not guilty, the accusation, Travis was a sexual deviant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or somebody was terrorizing someone else without any physical abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No physical abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You also have sexual humiliation and degradation. What do you see with that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sexual humiliation is where you`re having people do things that they might go along with, but lowers their self-esteem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you tell him that you thought it was vulgar and unattractive when a man talks about sex as much as he did?
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING EX-BOYFRIEND: I did say that in the e- mail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you tell him that you know he wants it, meaning sex, but he needs to be patient? If they followed through with the police report, have they talked to you about what happens if they`re called to testify against their abuser?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for our trial report card. I am back with my co-host, Michelle Ward, clinical psychologist and clinical neuroscientist. So, how is the defense attorney, Jennifer Wilmot, doing? Do our guests find her even more effective, perhaps, than her male counterpart in the defense? Giving out the grades, Mark Eiglarsh, Cheryl Arutt, and Lauren Lake.
Everybody hold your grades until the end, please. Michelle, I`m going to have you give a grade as well. Mark, what say you?
EIGLARSH: Well, this is a good witness, and that she`s communicative, she`s articulate. The jurors, I think, like her. She`s educating them. She has not linked it up to Travis, but, even if she does not, the defense can still say, well, you heard what Jodi said, you heard what the expert says. Now, if you marry the two together, you`ve got an abuser in Travis.
I still think, however, that`s only one part of it which they`re not going to be able to prove. The next part is that she reasonably feared death or great bodily harm at the time that she used the deadly force and that she can`t sell to anybody.
PINSKY: So, that -- you`re saying for this defense to be good, they`re going to have to go at that piece or else forget it?
EIGLARSH: That`s the whole -- that`s it. This is just a battle. The war is, OK, even if we hypothetically believe that you were an abused woman or ever were, why did you use -- the prisons are filled with abused women who didn`t have fear, reasonable fear at the time and had to kill. That`s the issue.
ARUTT: Well, I think that the defense is doing a good job right now with a very easy witness. Laviolette is laying it out there. And I think what we`re really going to see is how are they going to tie this together and can they sell it? And I don`t really think that they can, but I think doing a good job with an easy task today, I`ll give them that.
PINSKY: So, Lauren, it sounds like the grading is going to be sort of lukewarm, do you agree?
LAKE: Kind of. I have to say this is as good as it`s going to get for the defense at this point right now. I`m happy at least that they`re planting a seed, because that`s all they can really do, because Mark is right. When it`s time to link it all together, they`re going to be in big trouble.
But I think this is a good story teller. She knows her stuff. She`s organized. I`m sure they`re receiving the information well, and that`s all they can do at this point, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: And Michelle, how about Wilmot versus her male counterpart.
WARD: Well, first I want to pull back to something Lauren said which I think we all seem to forget a little bit is that this woman deserves a defense. This is the country we`re in, and she deserves a defense and we would all want our family member to be properly defended. Now, that said, I like this attorney, I mean, I do.
And I think she`s doing exactly what she should do here which is pull back and let this witness speak and let her teach. And that`s what this witness here do.
PINSKY: All right. We got a caller. Stephen in Florida. He has a grade. What`s your grade, Stephen?
STEPHEN, FLORIDA: Dr. Drew, it`s an honor. Can I give lower than F-.
PINSKY: Oh, really? How come? Go ahead. You can give minuses. I like that.
STEPHEN: I think she`s canned, rehearsed. She`s boring. I just get annoyed with all her objections to the bench and approaches to the bench and her sister act that she`s got going on with Jodi. And think it`s deplorable what she`s done with her line of defense through the witnesses and the family and the whole works.
PINSKY: So, you think the sister act, the mirroring of Jodi is actually dictated by Jennifer Wilmot, is that right?
STEPHEN: Yes. And I think it`s all deplorable. I think it`s a tax - - it`s just a waste of taxpayer`s money and --
EIGLARSH: F-, though? I mean, that -- if F -- I mean, if the woman turned and said she`s never been abused, she`s guilty as hell, what are you going to give her?
EIGLARSH: I mean, you know, F- is reserved for that.
PINSKY: Let`s get other calls. I want to hear other grades other than Stephen. A little more moderated opinion, but I love the extreme ideas about this. Anybody else out there. We got Jim in New York. Go ahead, Jim. Jim, we got you linked in? What was it?
JIM, NEW YORK: -- articulate. I think she is as likable as the prosecutor is kind of pugilistic. And I think she`s doing a great job for her.
PINSKY: What was the grade?
PINSKY: B+. All right. So, let`s get the grades from our panel. We`re going to start with Mark. We heard one of our callers give an F- and a B+. The critics agree. What do you say, Mark?
EIGLARSH: I think it`s a good witness. I think that she`s earned a solid B. If she can link it up and still look credible, she can move up.
PINSKY: Lauren, what`s your grade?
LAKE: Because it`s very general right now. There are no specifics, but I think she`s handling her witness very well and letting her speak, I`m giving her a B- for now.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Cheryl.
ARUTT: I was really upset with the job they did with the other witness that they brought in. So, I thought she has some ground to make up for. I think she`s doing much better now, but she had something to make up for. I`m giving her a C.
PINSKY: Oh, nice. Right there in the middle. That`s, by the way, an average grade, guys, before grade inflation. Michelle, what do you say?
WARD: Well, first, I never want to be in Stephen`s class, but I don`t know.
WARD: I`m a little more sympathetic. I give her a B+ and that`s because I think she, you know, she has a big long road to hoe here. And I think she`s doing OK.
PINSKY: Yes. It as an almost indefensible situation and it`s been grueling. I`m going to recuse myself today.
PINSKY: I`m holding judgment for the moment. Thank you, guys.
Next up, the jury -- we`re going to look at the jury, the usual jury we have, but it`s going to be jury international style. Jodi has become a worldwide sensation. You`ll see what I mean when we come back with Drew`s jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When a relationship ends, most people aren`t ready to have -- there`s usually one person who isn`t ready to have it end. You might call the other person just to hear their voice on the answer machine or you might drive by their, you know, their house or something to see if they`re there. You might show up somewhere where you think they are.
And over time, once they know their partners mean business, that stalking behavior decreases. When you`re dealing with a terrorist, once they know you mean business, the stalking increases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is time for Dr. Drew`s Jury. Boy, stalking. Who was the stalker in that relationship, Michelle? Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. And reminder that our jury has gone global. We will have -- do we have her yet from Australia? Elena. We won`t be using her last name. We`re having difficulty hooking up her Skype, and then she fell off the phone line.
She is someone who created a Facebook page called the state versus Jodi Arias and has almost 30,000 likes. All the people that are sort of interested in this case seem to know this woman and we are trying to get her back on the phone. Any luck there at the control room? OK. We`ll get her as soon as we can.
And of course, we have our regulars, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. They are here. So, Katie, here`s what I want to know. What are all you guys doing with no court today?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": OK, Dr. Drew, we actually -- we went shopping.
WICK: And we went and had about a four hour-long lunch. So, that`s what we did. And we tried to pass the time as best as possible. And, that`s what we did. It was such a crazy day today. And we`re just -- we were really surprised. And there was a gal from, I think, Tennessee, that came specifically to see this. And I felt so bad she couldn`t get in. But it was time well spent today. So --
PINSKY: Stacy, how about the spring break mom we hit on yesterday who was spending her vacation sitting in the courtroom. Is she going to be OK?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Yes. Well, I think -- you know, I hope she had a great time yesterday and enjoyed it. And, you know, for any of those that came down today, you know, it was kind of, you know, probably disappointing that they really came to be able to see this in person and see how it worked, and then, unfortunately, had to miss this.
So, they probably didn`t, you know, have quite, you know, a good a day that Katie and I did. But hopefully, they found a way to still enjoy their spring break.
PINSKY: Now, what I`d like to do, the control help me out with this, since we had no court today. We have tons of calls. Can you guys give me some call set up so we can -- all four of us here, Michelle, the jury, and I address that. What`s that, North Carolina, Kitty. Kitty, you`ve got a question. Go ahead, Kitty.
KITTY, NORTH CAROLINA: Yes. My question and comment are for Katie. Katie, your comments are so well-thought out and I feel like HLN should put you on as a regular commentator for their trials.
WICK: Thank you.
PINSKY: That`s very nice.
KITTY: And my question is --
WICK: I appreciate that.
KITTY: Good. My question is, do you feel that Jodi is unhappy with Laviolette`s testimony?
WICK: It`s so amazing you say that. Thank you so much. You`re so sweet to say that. I actually do. And I think -- I was just talking to Stacey before we went on air, she`s already, for lack of a better -- I guess I`ll say this the best way I can, given the bird (ph) to Dr. Samuels. She wouldn`t acknowledge him when he walked back to the defense table. And now this expert witness, I saw them smile at each other at the beginning but her demeanor is changing.
She seems to be a lot more brazen. She seems to be -- she`s talking with her attorney a lot more than she used to. She seems like maybe she`s realizing she`s getting to the nitty-gritty. So --
PINSKY: I wonder, Stacey, if she sees, Michelle, maybe you agree with me on this, if she`s starting to see that the way this defense witness is painting the picture, jurors could conclude that she was the stalking victimizer, no?
WARD: No. That`s what I`m actually curious about. Sorry, Katie. I don`t mean to step over you, but I want to just add on to what Dr. Drew is saying is that, is this telegraphing to the jury like it is to us, that she kind of -- what Laviolette is describing sounds like, you know, Jodi is the perpetrator.
FAIRRINGTON: Yes. This all sounds like Jodi`s behavior. Yes. I think it does sound like Jodi`s behavior and I think she`s starting to really feel that. I think she knows that Samuels did nothing for her case at all. And I think she`s probably really worried about how this is going to come off and already, I think, that`s starting to -- it`s going to start wearing on her. I think it`s going to get worse especially once Juan gets up.
PINSKY: So, she felt like she was in control. She doesn`t get a headache. She feels like uh-oh, somebody can see through this and blame me. I`ve got a headache. Lisa in California, what do you got?
LISA, CALIFORNIA: Dr. drew, what`s more important here? A bullet to the head or a migraine?
PINSKY: Well, I think that`s right. In other words, how much do we sympathize with the victimizer and allow her to control the court proceedings. Michelle, you`re a court analyst. Tell us about that.
WARD: Well, you know, she has the right to be present and aware during her trial. That`s just the judicial system we have here. And that she says that she`s unable to do so. They`re going to make some allowances for that. Is it frustrating and annoying? Yes. Is it typical Jodi behavior? Absolutely. But, it`s just the way it works.
PINSKY: Gas lighting. That`s the word for tonight.
WICK: Yes. Dr. Drew, if I can mention real fast. Also, we -- when we were leaving today, we saw the jury exit and get on to the elevators. And they did not look happy at all. And I can only imagine at the end of the day, that`s who`s going to make this decision and they did not look happy. They looked very upset.
WARD: It`s interesting.
PINSKY: Thank you, ladies. HLN presents special programming event this Friday beginning at 1:00 p.m., we will play some of the most compelling stunning moments from the 18 days Jodi Arias was on the stand. You will not want to miss that. It will be a part of -- you want to be a part of it. It all begins Friday 1:00 p.m. only on HLN.
Next up, I want to tell you a quick story about a cancer patient who couldn`t go to her prom and the prom came to her. I`ll be right back.
PINSKY: All right, everybody. I`m sorry we couldn`t get our Australian Jodi follower on the phone. We`ll get her tomorrow. We had technical problems. Michelle, I want to say thank you to you right now before I tell this important story. I`m running out of time, but thank you for staying with me all week.
WARD: Thank you.
PINSKY: Caitlin Norman (ph) -- I`m just going to tell you this one story. We`re going to be done. Caitlin Norman (ph) is like many (INAUDIBLE) girl. She wants to go to the prom, but she has bone cancer. Treatments made her too ill to attend. So, children`s hospital and Campbell County, Tennessee brought the prom to her. Music, date, decorations, everything.
The citizens of Campbell County lined the streets with candles for the occasion. I want to salute that hospital and that community. It just brings tears to my eyes when I hear about that story.
So, there you go. I just thought we just share that one tonight. We`re going to bring our global juror back tomorrow, as I said. We can`t bring her tonight. Thank you all for watching. Thank you, Michelle. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.