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Jodi Arias Sick or Stalling?

Aired March 27, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Breaking news. We`ve got brand-new information just in on Jodi Arias and why court was suddenly called off. And it`s not just because Jodi has a migraine. There are more complaints, in fact.

Plus, controversy tonight over prosecutor Juan Martinez signing autographs and stopping for photo-ops. He`s turned into a local superstar with his very own fan base. But is he celebrating too soon? Is this appropriate, or not?


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, why does the Jodi Arias trial come to a screeching halt, with today`s session mysteriously and suddenly canceled this afternoon? Is Jodi sick, or is she faking it to push back judgment day? We`ve seen her popping pills in court. Is that a clue? Or could Jodi be freaking out knowing she`s on her last witness? We`ll debate it with my expert panel.

Plus, new controversy over prosecutor Juan Martinez. He`s swarmed by fans, posing for pictures and signing autographs. But should he just say "no" until the verdict`s in? I`m taking your calls.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": I heard Jennifer Willmott, after she poured a glass of water for Jodi, handed it to Jodi and said to the sheriff`s deputy, "Be sure she takes her medication."

DR. RICHARD SAMUELS, PSYCHOLOGIST: At various times she was on a tranquilizer, was on an antidepressant.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is Ms. Arias taking medication?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She takes her medication.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, breaking news. We`ve got brand-new information coming in at this hour about the huge mystery in the Jodi Arias courtroom.

Tonight, a friend of the Arias family is complaining that Jodi has a migraine and says she`s being forced to wake up too early. Could that be what`s making Jodi sick? Or could Jodi be hatching a secret plan to stall for more time, or could she even be trying to create a basis for appeal?

Good evening, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.

The beautiful 32-year-old photographer admits she stabbed Travis Alexander 29 times, slit his throat from ear-to-ear, all the way back to the spine, and shot him in the face. But Jodi says, "Oh, I did this all in self-defense. I was abused."

Yesterday, we heard Jodi was feeling faint. And they gave her a Power Bar. But we saw her in court at a hearing this morning, and she looked just fine. Then suddenly, out of nowhere, court is mysteriously called off for the day. And then we found out Jodi is being given strict instructions: take your medicine, just before court is canceled. Listen to this.


CASAREZ: I heard Jennifer Willmott, after she poured a glass of water for Jodi, handed it to Jodi and said to the sheriff`s deputy, "Be sure she takes her medication."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And tonight, we`re learning new information about what she`s taking medicine for, for migraines. And the Arias friend complains Jodi is being forced to wake up at 1 a.m., to shower and dress and leave the jail at 2:30 a.m. She remains in a holding cell at the courthouse until she is brought into the courtroom.

The obvious implication is, it`s a complaint that she`s too tired. She`s forced to wake up too early. She`s too stressed to assist in her own defense. And she`s getting a migraine.

But we`ve also learned brand-new information to the contrary. The sheriff`s office says no way, it`s not 1 a.m. She`s woken up as early as 3 a.m. Still, is that too early or is this one of Jodi`s many ploys?


JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT (singing): It might change my memory.

(speaking): You should have at least done your make-up, Jodi, gosh. Goodness.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what do you think: a ploy or a legitimate complaint? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS; 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to our own senior producer, Selin Darkalstanian. You were in court when everything went crazy, this mysterious cancellation, and you`ve got some new information. What can you tell us?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER: Jane, day 39 of this trial. We`re getting ready to hear the domestic violence expert who essentially could be the one who saves Jodi`s life by testifying that she does fit the criteria for domestic violence expert [SIC].

But abruptly, court is canceled. We all have to leave. Everyone is shocked. Everyone`s wondering, what happened? What could it be? And it turns out that Jodi is suffering from migraines.

Now, we know that she suffers from migraines, because we`ve seen her take, actually take her migraine medication in court before. So we know that she`s had this problem before.

Yesterday, she felt faint, so they had to call a break, and she had to eat a protein bar. So she`s getting headaches. She`s complaining of hunger, and she`s taking her medication. And then today, all of a sudden, court is canceled.

And the court wouldn`t tell any of the reporters why it was canceled. But we could -- we`ve learned that it is because of her migraine headaches. And you have to wonder, why was it canceled? Was she not taking her medication today? Because essentially, this is a very important day for her. This is the witness that could save her life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And you know, she was on a roll. Everybody, even people who have been very, very critical of her, say, "Wow, this is a good defense witness, and she`s on a roll. And the jurors are listening." And suddenly, it breaks the momentum. Why would she risk that?

Well, she says, according to new information, she had a migraine. And I want to go to Beth Karas, correspondent, "In Session." Let me -- let me read you what`s coming in.

Donovan Bering, a friend of the Arias family, is confirming Jodi suffered a migraine. She then goes on to say, "Hey, on trial days Jodi is woken up at 1 in the morning to shower and dress and leaves the jail at 2:30 a.m. and remains in a holding cell in the courthouse until she`s brought into the courtroom."

The obvious implication there is that she`s being woken up too early, that it`s stressing her out. And that it -- it`s almost, I`m not going to say harassment, but that yes, it`s way too early. Court starts at 9:30 her time, right? So why does she have to get there so early.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, 10:30. What have you learned? Because I know you`ve talked to the sheriff`s officials.

KARAS: Yes, just a couple of hours ago, I spoke with a spokesperson for Sheriff Arpaio. His office, or the sheriff`s department monitors and runs the jail. And he told me that all inmates on trial -- I didn`t ask about other inmates who are awaiting trial, just the ones on trial, are awakened as early between -- I think it was 3, maybe as early as 3, but you know, 4 or 5. They -- they wash; they get dressed. They are transported to the courthouse. They have breakfast at the courthouse. He calls it a sack lunch. But Jodi gets lunch. The judge ordered her to get lunch, so she doesn`t have to go 12 hours before having dinner back at the jail.

And he told me what they do is they take her breakfast, and they cut it in half. So she gets half of it before court and half of it during the lunch hour. If her lawyers ask for an additional 500 calories for her, they`ll give it to her. But right now, they`re just giving her the 2,600 calories a day that all inmates get.

But he did not say 1 a.m. There`s no need for her to get up that early. I`m not saying Donovan Bering is wrong, but the spokesperson for the sheriff`s department told me between 3 and 5, I think, and then they come to the courthouse.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s a -- there`s a window there. So let`s -- let`s say it`s 3. I mean, you`re saying it starts at 10:30 their time? So 3...

KARAS: Right. But everybody gets here, and they`re held in cells. They`re held in cells at the courthouse, and they`re fed. And they`re, you know, just waiting for trial.

You know, some inmates, trials start at 9. They`re not going to transport them at the convenience of the judge`s schedule. Jodi Arias is going to come. If another inmate has to be here for 8:30, the bus is going to get here for 8:30 or, you know, well before that so they can have their breakfast. She`s going to come with the gang. And so she`ll have to wait around. Other inmates, their trials are starting earlier in the day. OK, so Jodi sits in her cell an extra hour or two.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s debate this with our expert panel. And we`re going to start with the famous Marcia Clark, author of the fabulous "Guilt by Degrees."

You have several books out now. We`re going to show them, so anybody who wants to get them, over the course of this hour, you`ll know exactly what they are. But you know -- there it is, "Guilt by Degrees."

Marcia, you know exactly what it`s like to be at the very center of this white-hot spotlight, this high-profile trial and all the stress it brings. You gained fame as a prosecutor during the O.J. Simpson case, and during that trial, the entire world was watching. I believe we even have some video of that trial from way back in the mid-`90s.

I was a local TV newscaster during that time. And we spent hours and hours -- and I`m embarrassed to say it, Marcia -- discussing your hair style. The entire world was watching every word that came out of your mouth. What it`s like in terms of stress? Because stress can create migraines, not just for the defendant but for people who are arguing the case on either side. This is a pressure cooker. I don`t think anybody who`s not right in the thick of it can even begin to comprehend what a pressure cooker it is, Marcia.

MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR/FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, it`s true. There`s -- it`s an enormous pressure cooker. That`s a really great way of putting it, Jane. Well put.

But it`s funny, because with all of that that`s going on, and it is crazy, and there`s enormous tension; there`s a great deal of heat and tension in the courtroom, because everybody is watching. Inside the courtroom it`s packed.

And yet, when you sit down at counsel table and you`re facing the witness stand, it`s kind of like a tunnel vision. That`s all I saw. I saw the jury. I saw the judge. I saw the witness and, of course, the defense table if I needed to and focused forward. And so there was a way of just completely blocking it all out.

It was actually when I left the courtroom that I remembered how much - - how much scrutiny there was and how many people were watching. And that was only because reporters were literally allowed to stand outside the courtroom door and shove microphones in our faces, which they`re not allowed to do anymore. There`s a certain no-fly zone around the courtroom so that the lawyers can move in and out. But that`s when you could really feel it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me debate this with our expert panel. And let`s bring in Randy Zelin, criminal defense attorney.

Do you think the stress is getting to her? Do you think these migraines are genuine whether or not this complaint about having to wake up too early is valid?

RANDY ZELIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can`t help but wondering from a strategic standpoint. If I am the defense, I don`t want to give the prosecution the weekend, particularly with the holiday, and I don`t know what the judge`s schedule is going to be in terms of the holiday, but to give the prosecution the whole weekend to prepare for the cross-examination of the expert. So if I can run the testimony of the expert out beyond the weekend, so this way the cross of the prosecution starts on Monday, that`s...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Monday there`s no court is my understanding, and...

ZELIN: Then Tuesday.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It starts again on Tuesday. So you think this is strategic. That`s fascinating, because I thought, well, maybe she really has a headache. This woman was her best chance, her shot at saving her life. She`s a domestic violence expert, who`s arguing, yes, she is a victim of abuse or fits the pattern. And suddenly, we stop it while she`s on a role.

But Stacey Honowitz, is it possible that this is part of a bigger strategy?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Look, you never know what the defense is thinking, especially a defendant who`s manipulative like she is. I mean, we all know that she did have a history of migraine headaches. And certainly, the defense attorney doesn`t want to go forward if her client can`t aid her and says that I`m not properly prepared because I don`t feel good. You don`t want your client keeling over at the table.

But again, I`m not a mind reader. It could be something very bogus or it could be something nefarious and something strategic. Or it could be that she really doesn`t feel good, and they said, "We`re not going to court today, because she`s not ready."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, on the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about her migraine medication. And correct me if I`m wrong, because I might be, because I don`t get migraines, thank God. But do you take migraine medication every day? No, you only take it when you get a migraine. And apparently, we`ve been hearing from our sources that she takes her migraine medication every day. That doesn`t add up to me.

Tonight on "HLN AFTER DARK," a closer look at Travis. Was he a sexual deviant really? Join Vinnie Politan and Ryan Smith tonight, 10 Eastern for "HLN AFTER DARK."

On the other side, we`re going to bring you more inside information. What the heck is going on with Jodi Arias? Is she laughing in her cell right now? Or is she grabbing her head because it`s pounding?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine-one-one emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: State of Arizona versus Jodi Ann Arias.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s lots of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Count one, first-degree murder (premeditated murder).

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jodi was Travis`s dirty little secret.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?


ARIAS: I wouldn`t say obsession. It was a two-way street.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caused the death of Travis V. Alexander.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To be honest, the evidence is very compelling. But none of it proves that I committed a murder.




ARIAS: He had zero tolerance, so he got very angry and began to swear and started banging the steering wheel with his first, and hitting the inside of the door and just screaming at other drivers who were oblivious to him. But he was screaming at them and just angry. I mean, it was like he was straining at the leash with the seatbelt, like he couldn`t restrain himself.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is wrong with Jodi Arias? Why was court abruptly canceled? You see her taking pills right there in court. And we are learning from a family friend, yes, she had a migraine, and also that same family friend claimed that she`s forced to get up too early, claiming she`s forced to get up at 1 in the morning.

Our Beth Karas talked to officials. They said no. It`s at the very earliest 3, but it`s more likely 4. She has to get into a holding cell at the courthouse long before she goes out to be in court and be on the national airwaves, as well.

So is she faking a problem to postpone judgment day or for some strategic reason? Or is she really getting migraines and are they, perhaps, waking her up just a little bit too early than they have to, because she`s not very popular? OK.

One of the defense psychologists, Richard Samuels -- the defense psychologist -- tested that Jodi at some point had been taking tranquilizers and antidepressants behind bars. Listen to this.


JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING OVER TRIAL: "Is Ms. Arias taking medication to treat this terrible PTSD disorder?"

SAMUELS: She has been taking -- at various times, she was on a tranquilizer, was on an anti-depressant. Sometimes medication is suggested to PTSD depending upon the nature of the symptoms.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course, she said, "Yes, I had PTSD. That`s why I went into a fog." But now she`s saying, through a family friend, "I have a migraine." So she`s sitting somewhere behind bars, Dr. Jeff Gardere, clinical psychologist, purportedly complaining of a migraine, or perhaps not.

Now, I find this whole idea that she had been at some point -- remember, she`s been in jail for years now. This killing happened in 2008. She was arrested about a month later. She`s been in jail for going on five years. In July, it will be five years.

So at some point -- and he talked to her back a couple of years ago, at least -- she was taking antidepressants and tranquillizer. Now we find she`s taking migraine medications, so called. What do you make of it? Is it possible that maybe something is going on behind the scenes that we don`t know about her being on something, and that`s why she`s so flat?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it is possible that she`s been on some antidepressants, especially if there is some sort of PTSD. Though we don`t normally treat people with personality disorders, as we believe she may have, with an antidepressant unless, of course, she has some sort of underlying depression.

But as far as the -- having the migraine headaches, we do treat them, physicians treat them as a prophylaxis. In other words, they give them some beta-blockers so that they can reduce the numbers of migraines they have. So they actually take the medication before actually getting a migraine.

And one of the side effects, major side effects, happens to be being tired, as well as nausea and other sorts of medical issues.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, so I stand corrected. Because I thought it was odd that she was taking her daily migraine medication. Because I thought, well, you take a migraine medication when you get a migraine. But you just explained it. Very good.

Let`s debate it. And I want to continue now with Drew Findling. You guys, it`s open mic. You can just go at it.

But Drew, what do you make of this? Do you think she really have a migraine or is this some strategery [SIC]?

DREW FINDLING, ATTORNEY: Jane, there is zero chance that this is a defense strategy. No defense attorney is going to risk their career by unethically getting her to fake an illness so they can get the weekend off or prevent a cross-examination in a timely fashion.

Listen, Marcia is right, it`s a pressure cooker. It is because at the end of the day, whether it`s Marcia or Drew, or any other attorney, we go home on the weekend. We may get to see a movie, have a nice dinner.

The inmate goes back to the jail, and they wake up at 3 in the morning. And that is a tremendous amount of pressure when you`re looking at the fact that, if you lose the trial, you`re going to get injected with something that`s going to kill you in a matter of seconds. That`s a lot of pressure. And this is not unusual when you`re waking up at 3 or 4 in the morning, to get ill like this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Very quickly, why do people think this is happening? Do you think she`s being woken up too early? Do you think the jail is somehow -- and I`m not making this accusation. The family friend said 1 a.m. Apparently, that is not what the officials are saying. But could they be jangling those jail bars just a little bit earlier than they have to, just to stick it to her a little bit?

And let`s debate it. You`re saying no, Stacey?

HONOWITZ: No. I mean, we all know. We`ve all worked in the system for a very long time. The sheriff is in charge of deciding what time to wake the inmates up. Because everybody has a different jail schedule in the morning.

Beth Karas was correct: Even if she has a 10:30 court date, another inmate may have to be in court at 8:30. It`s not a taxi service. It`s not a car service. They bring them all over together at the same time, and they`re not making any exceptions for any of the inmates to be brought over at a separate and distinct time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And guess who wants to debate, too? Jon Lieberman, HLN contributor, jump in.

JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: I actually agree with Drew. I mean, I think this is probably, you know, a real migraine, but you know, this isn`t even the real issue here.

I mean, the issue is I don`t believe this domestic violence expert is going to play that big a role in this trial at all. The reason being, Jane, there was a hearing back in August of 2011 that precludes this domestic violence expert from actually tying this in directly to Travis Alexander. And that`s what`s being missed here. That`s why she`s basically giving a course, a lecture about domestic violence. But in most ways, because of a judge`s ruling, she`d precluded can`t tie it to Travis.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No wonder Jodi has a migraine. I mean, come on. She sees that this is her best shot, and it`s a tutorial on hypothetical abuse that doesn`t mention Travis or Jodi. She`s not mentioned Travis or Jodi once, to my knowledge.

I think Jodi is scared. I think the reality of this is sinking in. It`s for real. We`ll be right back with more.


ARIAS: Should at least done your make up Jodi, gosh.




ARIAS (via phone): I love it when you grab my butt (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but you only do it, like, when you`re trying to prove somebody else.

ALEXANDER: You cannot say I don`t work that booty.

ARIAS: Never mind. You do know how to work the booty.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And tonight, Jodi Arias has a migraine. Let`s go out to the phone lines. Susie (ph), Louisiana, your question or thought. Susie?

CALLER: Hey, Jane. I wanted to say that my husband and I watch your show every night. We enjoy it very much. You do a great job to help people.


CALLER: Jane, my comment is this: I suffer from migraines. I don`t think that Jodi has a true migraine. If she did, she would be fell over on the table in severe time.

You can`t stand the light in your eyes, and -- and those sort of things. And I do take a migraine medication. It`s called Zenutropin (ph). And I don`t take it every day. I only take it when the migraine starts.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that`s very informative. And again, most -- except for Randy Zelin, I think he raise the possibility it could be strategic. But most of our panel doesn`t think that the defense would risk it.

However, you know, you`ve got to wonder briefly -- and I`ll go to Randy on this. If -- if there`s something, let`s say, that the defendant wants to do that could be good strategically for the attorneys, and I`m not accusing anybody of anything. I`m just asking hypothetically. They say, "Oh, I have a migraine."

Whether you believe it or not, you`re going to say, I mean, you -- you probably are going to say, "OK, we`ll call off. We`ll tell them, go back to jail. And we`ll just pick this up on -- well, we`ll pick it up tomorrow, but it will extend into next week.

ZELIN: Hey, I`m going to do that. When I have a client whose life is on the line or their liberty is on the line, I`m going to do everything and anything I can to get the best result I can.

And I am not going to give a prosecution team three days or four days to rip apart the one witness who may hold the key to my client not having her life punched out. No way, no how. I`m going to run this direct examination beyond the weekend so the prosecution goes right into the cross and does not get the weekend to prepare.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Marcia Clark, when you think about it, and I`m sure you can relate to this, these -- her attorneys are the same people who are buying this idea that she`s a victim of domestic violence and don`t bat an eye that she lied repeatedly, first said wasn`t there, then said two masked ninjas came in and killed Travis and she miraculously escaped. I mean, if you`ve suspended disbelief to that point, well, the sky is the limit.

CLARK: Well, for sure. The defense, regardless of what the lawyers believe in their hearts, you know, when you`re alone in the room at night, away from Jodi in the courtroom, is one thing. And what they`re going to present to the world is quite another. And they have to prevent the best defense they possibly can and present it as though they believe it themselves, or else they`re never going to sell it to a jury.

And let me correct one thing. The prosecution is getting ready for this cross-examination now, always. The minute the witness takes the stand, they`re taking notes, they`re preparing, they`re getting ready. So even if they stretch this witness`s testimony out into Monday or Tuesday, the prosecution is going to have the weekend to prepare with what she`s said so far, which is quite a lot. She`s really given the bulk of her testimony.

And it`s really common, Jane, for these experts to be limited to talking in general about what is the theory behind domestic violence and what happens to abuse victims and their symptomology and not be allowed to tie it specifically to the parties involved. It`s very common.

But you know, it`s up to the lawyer in closing arguments, then, to connect the dots. And they will. And I`m sure the jury is able to connect the dots, too, because this expert has already talked about many of the things that Jodi testified to. The jury`s not going to miss that. They`re going to get it. They`re just -- the expert is not allowed to say it out loud. But make no mistake: the prosecution is getting prepared, as we speak, and they will be prepared when it`s time the cross-examination, whenever it happens.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Meantime, this is day whatever, 38, 39, however you`re counting it. It`s way out of control, according to some people.

On the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about the prosecutor. He`s now embroiled in a controversy that`s new. We`re going to tell you about that.

And we`re also going to talk about why is this trial taking so long? At the top of the hour, Nancy Grace listens to this bizarre day in court. Why did it come crashing down? Nancy`s take at the top of the hour. We are going to take your calls on the other side.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Were you crying when you were shooting him?


MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?

ARIAS: I don`t remember.

MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat, were you crying then?

ARIAS: I don`t know.



ARIAS: He had his hands around my neck and was banging my head on the carpet.

KURT NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So you had sex behind closed doors and he beat you behind closed doors.

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DEFENSE WITNESS: A lot of women have no proof of physical abuse because they haven`t reported.

NURMI: Why not just break up with him?

ARIAS: I liked him. So I didn`t (inaudible) to break with him.

I`m game for like almost everything you come up with.

NURMI: Would it be fair to say he has an all-access pass to your body?


I wanted to do what he wanted to do.

You are bad. You make me feel so dirty.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: As Jodi goes home sick with a migraine, a new controversy tonight, prosecutor Juan Martinez turning into a local superstar. But some critics say these flocking fans could spell trouble for the prosecution`s case.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This morning when we got here, we got to the elevator and he was standing right there. I was just kind of like, shocked. He just looked at me and said "Hi". I was like "Hi, it`s so nice to meet you."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. In the courtroom, we all know the prosecutor is fierce and he often raises his voice. He`s straight-faced. Outside, look, he`s being greeted by people. They want his autograph. He has autographed a woman`s cane or agreed to I should say.

So first, let`s go to Selin Darkalstanian. You`re there in Phoenix, you have been there for this entire trial. Wow. How popular is prosecutor Juan Martinez?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER: He`s definitely very popular as you saw in that footage. He`s signing autographs. There`s a group of trial court observers -- they`re like trial junkies. They come every single day. They sit in the gallery. They show up as early as 5:00 a.m. to stand in line to get into the courthouse to get a seat in this Arias trial.

So at the end of the day, what you don`t see is Juan Martinez coming out, taking photos, signing autographs. And you don`t see that with the defense attorneys. They defense attorneys walk quickly to their cars. They`re always alone. And Juan Martinez is like a superstar. He has a rock star status here in Arizona.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, absolutely. So let`s debate it. Is it a good idea or should he say I`m flattered but no I can`t do that. I`m sorry and walk the other way. Let`s debate it. Start with Stacey Honowitz, prosecutor.

STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Well, listen, we all know that he became very popular. This trial is televised all over, all the time. And people have a real sense of being aligned in his prosecution and what he`s doing. You know what the public opinion is towards Jodi Arias --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Should he do it though? That`s my question.

HONOWITZ: I don`t really see what -- he`s not mingling with the jurors. Of course, that`s a whole other different wall of wax. These people are not in the case. They are not witnesses. They are not jurors. And quite frankly, how it`s going to affect the case, I don`t think it`s going to. Some people might say it (inaudible) into the radar. It`s not going to affect the outcome of the case.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me rephrase the question. Let me rephrase the question. Should a prosecutor, let`s say celebrate or seen to be celebrating before a verdict? We have seen it before. Ok, remember, prosecutor Jeff Ashton, all right. In the Casey Anthony trial, we heard that the crowd cheered for Jeff Ashton as he walked in to hear the verdict. And we all know she was found not guilty of murdering little Caylee. You could have knocked him over with a feather.

So I will continue our debate. Is it possible to jinx a case by celebrating too soon, Drew Findling?

DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Let me -- this is to ill- advised. Let`s put it in its context. This isn`t a celebrity Hollywood shoplifting trial. His goal at the end of the case is to try to kill Jodi Arias, to get her convicted and have her subject to lethal injection which will take her life. You do not celebrate and you do not have notoriety and walk around and sign autographs. When you remember the AVA prosecutor`s function is to pursue justice.

His focus is justice in that courtroom, not anybody inferring that what he does within that courtroom is influenced by his desire for notoriety and of course, the inevitable book deal as soon as the trial is over with.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Marcia Clark, author -- speaking of authors, the fabulous "Guilt by Degree" and other books and obviously famous as a former prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson case. You were there at the white hot spotlight. You were a prosecutor and again I`m ashamed to say I did spend hours on camera discussing your changing hair style.

Is it a dammed if you do, dammed if you don`t situation if he refused to sign some lady`s cane, would he be getting heck for that, too?

MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "GUILT BY DEGREE: Yes. Jane, I have to tell you, in the very beginning when people started coming up and asking for my autograph, I was like "what, no, why?" Why do you want -- and then they would get mad at me. And they say, you know, because you are famous.

But I`m just a prosecutor. They would get mad. Of course, your public persona and the way the public perceives you especially before a jury is picked is important. You don`t want to come off looking like a hard-ass or something. And I didn`t want to insult anybody. I just thought it was weird.

But then I felt like I had to because people were getting pissed off. So you`re kind of there in this lose/lose proposition where people are coming up and asking for your autograph. After the jury is sworn that`s a different story but up until that time especially you are very conscious of, you know, what the public perception is.

Is it unseemly? I mean it`s not wonderful.


CLARK: But increasingly all these trials feel to me like "Chicago", you know the movie.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, exactly.

CLARK: It`s become a form of entertainment and you know, we are talking about it --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sometimes people ask me for my autograph and I say "Mom, cut it out."

All right. Let`s go to the phone lines. Star, California, your question or thought -- Star, California.

STAR, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): Hi Jane, how are you doing?


STAR: Listen, my statement is that I feel Jodi is not only duping everyone, but I think she`s duping her attorneys as well. I think she`s trying to gain as much sympathy from everyone as she`s telling her people, I have a headache, they are telling her how we feel about it, how we feel that she`s crazy. I think that that`s what she`s doing, not the lawyers, not -- not anyone else, just her. It`s her personality.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You make a great point, Star because -- and I`ll throw this to Jon Leiberman. We forgot the obvious -- sympathy ploy, can`t believe I forgot that. The jury is not sequestered. It`s going to get to them that she`s getting sick -- poor, poor Jodi.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, but that`s not giving this jury enough credit. I mean we know from the amount of jury questions that they are taking this trial extremely seriously. So I don`t think they are going to be swayed.

Frankly I don`t think many people have sympathy for Jodi. She`s a proven multiple-time liar who finally decided on this self-defense defense which can`t be corroborated with any evidence or any other witness testimony or anything. I don`t think she`s getting anybody`s sympathy.

And back to Juan Martinez, quickly -- there`s two issues. Him signing autographs is going to have no impact on what happens in court. In court he is doing a terrific job of standing for Travis Alexander and standing for the people of Arizona.

The issue more is from the PR perspective. Should he be doing it? I`m a big Juan Martinez fan, but I do think he should wait until the end of the trial because as Drew and some of the other attorneys said, there is a life on the line and he has mission and that mission is not yet fulfilled and that is --


LEIBERMAN: -- justice for Travis and his family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me tell you something. We had a woman on last night who is one of those daily watchers in the court every day. I asked her what do you think is going to happen? She said mistrial. I almost fell off my chair. She says she watches the jury all the time and there`s a couple people in her opinion.

So there`s no done deal. We have seen too many high profile cases. There`s a theory that most people make their decision subconsciously. The longer this drags on, the more of a relationship that they have even on a subconscious level with Jodi Arias, the harder it`s going to be for them to decide to give her lethal injection.

We are taking a short break. On the other side, I`m going to show you how Jodi Arias plunged a knife into Travis Alexander`s chest, how deep it went.


ARIAS: He called me a skank.

NURMI: In front of other people?

ARIAS: In front of his roommate Josh.

He called me Pollyanna. He called me porn star.

I felt like a used piece of toilet paper. And I kind of felt like a prostitute, sort of.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is the knife wound to the chest. Can you paint a picture of that for our viewers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stab wound is not totally perpendicular. It`s at a slight angle and it`s penetrating to a depth of 3.5 inches.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: 3.5 inches. This, to me, of all the things I have seen, this gives me chills -- 3.5 inches to the heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s deep enough where (inaudible) is as the autopsy report says, it punctured the vena cava.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s the vena cava?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The major blood vessel carrying blood to the heart. Think of it as a disruption of the plumbing system of the body. Basically you create a hole where there shouldn`t be a hole so that the loss of fluid, the loss of blood is going to (inaudible) the site of that injury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: 3.5 inches. That is huge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The knife found its way between the third and fourth rib and then went into the blood vessel.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is as close to like a stab to the heart as you can get?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s saying says she doesn`t remember any of this. How violent of a crime is this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appeared to be quite a violent crime.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The medical examiner who performed Travis` autopsy says he believes the 3.5 inch chest wound, the stab to the chest was the first wound Jodi inflicted on Travis when he was sitting there at the bottom of the shower all helpless. And I thought possibly with soap suds in his eyes. That`s a horrifically violent act that the prosecutors write.

But we`ve forgotten all about that. When is the last time we talked about that in this trial? Yes, I understand it`s the defense`s case but let`s bring in our expert panel.

I mean Randy Zelin, we`ve been talking so much. And I know you speak for the defense. But we have been talking so much about whether or not she was in a fog and that`s why she hasn`t been able to be questioned about any of these stab wounds -- the 29 stab wounds -- because she was in a fog. And now we are talking about whether or not she`s a victim of abuse. What happened to Travis Alexander?

RANDY ZELIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s exactly what the defense wants to have happen here. They want the jury to forget about the victim. They want the jurors to focus on a couple of critical pieces, the domestic violence. And I will tell you I disagree with anyone who says that it`s bad for the defense that the judge is not going to let the defense expert tie in Travis to the domestic violence because this way the jurors can figure it out for themselves.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who disagrees with that? Who disagrees with that?

ZELIN: Hearing nobody.

CLARK: He`s right. He`s right. He`s absolutely right.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s see the panel. Let`s see the panel

CLARK: They feel -- they get invested.

FINDLING: Restate the statement. Restate it.

CLARK: He`s absolutely right, Jane. You let the jury get invested by letting them connect the dots. The experts have given them all the fodder to do it with and then they feel invested in the outcome and in the conclusion they draw. Of course he`s right.

ZELIN: I always liked Marcia.

LEIBERMAN: I think Juan Martinez -- I think Juan Martinez though is going to be able to use this expert to kind of connect the dots and argue that Jodi was the abuser. I think there`s more evidence pointing that way.


FINDLING: I think it`s a premature discussion because we really truly don`t know the limit. We`ve had a ruling a while back, correctly pointed out, but we don`t know the extent to which the judge is going to let this testimony go. I believe it`s going to go further than anybody imagined. I truly believe that.

It`s one thing to do a pre-trial ruling. But now that it`s a death penalty case and the guilty verdict, the second part sentencing -- in the future, you watch, she`s going to let it go further.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to correct you one thing. There`s no such thing as a premature discussion in my book.

All right. On the other side of the break, has the judge lost control of this trial? And we`re taking your calls.



MARTINEZ: So you weren`t going to put up with that either, were you?

ARIAS: Put up with what?

MARTINEZ: Well, what is it that we`re talking about here?

ARIAS: Which part would I put up with?

MARTINEZ: Were you going to put up with what we just talked about. Are you having problems understanding again what`s going on?

ARIAS: Sometimes because you go in circles.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Has the judge completely lost control of this case? She was on the stand for something like 18 days. One witness is on the stand for six days and now we`ve gone home because Jodi supposedly has a migraine.

Marcia Clark, former prosecutor, author of the amazing book "Guilt by Degrees". Do you think she`s just lost control of this?

CLARK: I think she`s one of the judges that runs scared of reversal on appeal. And I always have to say to that, look, you know, you enforce the rules of evidence and you make -- take your best shot. If you`re informed on the rules and what the law is, then you don`t have to worry about reversible error. By the way, you don`t get reversal unless you have a conviction.

I think when you have witnesses on the stand for eight, nine days at a time that`s a clear sign that rulings are not being made that should properly curtail the testimony because at some point it becomes cumulative. No one can talk about the same thing for that long with repeating themselves at some point.

And so rulings have to be made but she can make her own objection and say you`ve gone -- you`ve gone over this. This has been asked and answered. This has been done. Move on. She can limit it. And what the worry is, is that the jury gets buried in a lot of irrelevant detail and begins to forget what the critical evidence is, begins to lose thread. They get distracted. They also get aggravated. They get pissed off.

It`s a long time to take out of their lives for this case. I understand it`s a very important case. Don`t get me wrong. I`m not minimizing that. But there is a point after which the testimony is simply cumulative and they are getting distracted, confused and tired.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. And in confusion there is reasonable doubt. They`re getting overwhelmed. We know more about Jodi Arias, everything from her prescriptions to God only knows what. And what does that have to do with Travis Alexander and why she killed him?

All right. On the other side, we`re going to talk to Jeff Gardere, clinical psychologist about how can you tell if somebody really has a migraine?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Jeff, how can you tell if somebody has a migraine?

JEFFREY GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Usually they may have blood shot eyes, flushing of the skin and some vomiting. But the real way to know is to have a physician check for increased blood pressure and, of course, rapid heart rate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think she has, yes or no?

GARDERE: I don`t know whether she has. You can fake it. That`s for sure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very good point, Dr. Jeff Gardere. You can fake a migraine.

Nancy Grace is up next.