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Jodi`s Trial: Surprise Courtroom Drama

Aired March 28, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias, the woman who couldn`t say no.

WITNESS: She was vulnerable.

PINSKY: At the mercy of others. Her mom.

WITNESS: Jodi is angry at her mother, because Jodi`s mother didn`t protect her from her father.

PINSKY: Travis Alexander.

WITNESS: Well, he doesn`t call her for a few days.


WITNESS: And she starts to wonder if she`s been used.


WITNESS: She said she felt stupid.

PINSKY: This woman seems to think Jodi was a victim. Did she convince the jury? Did she convince you?

Plus, courtroom drama hits home. My juror, Katie Wick, was part of the trial today. And show`s here.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Welcome.

My co-host this week, Michelle Ward, criminal psychologist and host of "Stalked" on Investigation Discovery.

Interesting compelling day in court. Jodi`s defense lawyer accused the prosecutor of misconduct. What happened next stunned us all.

I`ll be speaking exclusively to Katie Wick, one of our jurors, and to Beth Karas about it. Watch this first.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just checked in for the court an exhibit, which is a photograph of counsel for the state posing with a woman who poses on HLN as one of Dr. Drew`s jurors. I believe her name is Ms. Wick. There has been video online of Mr. Martinez outside the courtroom, signing autographs and posing for pictures.

I believe that this misconduct may very well have been seen by jurors. I didn`t have any evidence of that effect until last night.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you spend about 44 hours talking with Jodi?

WITNESS: Yes, I did. It`s speaking with her. It`s talking with her. It`s trying to get information that I need when I`m reading this documentation. Maybe I need clarification on some things.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In you`re talking to men, perpetrators in your men`s group, do you create a rapport with them as well?

WITNESS: Yes, I do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you create a rapport with men, with the men in your men`s group -- when you create a rapport with someone, whether it`d be somebody from your men`s group, or whether it`d be Jodi, does that mean that you like them?

WITNESS: I do like the people I work with. You, I don`t know. I like people. Basically, I love all people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regard to Jodi, sending her items, why did you do that?

WITNESS: I did that, because I think jail is a pretty boring place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you learn about her family of origin, the family with whom she grew up?

WITNESS: Yes, I did. In Jodi`s family, there was a certain amount of physical discipline, some which I would consider went over the line, but when you leave welts on a child, they were hit with spoons.

When Jodi was in second, third grade, she told her dad that she had a crush on a little boy. He would talk about Jodi`s body. He would talk about her boobs, being too small.


PINSKY: All right. So what went down today? What was that all about? Help us understand what happened.

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, the defense felt that it`s possible a juror may have seen Juan Martinez posing for photos and signing autographs. And they heard what Jean Casarez, a correspondent like myself, said on HLN yesterday.

So, the judge said, Ms. Casarez, are you in the audience? And she stood, she said, yes, I am. And judge ordered her to the stand. And she was asked, what she observed regarding Mr. Martinez, posing and signing autographs. And she said, I didn`t observe anything. Well, then what were you talking about last night on the air?

You see, when Jean and I talk on the air or out in the field, we report on cases but also analyze. We`re attorneys.

So, she was offered some analysis. She said, I would be concerned doing that in a public area that a juror might be exposed to it.

The defense misinterpreted it as her reporting that she did see a juror. She simply cleared it up, and that was the end of the matter.

PINSKY: All right. That was the end of it.

KARAS: But the judge did talk to all of the jurors individually. And right now, the jury remains intact. Just to make sure no one saw it.

PINSKY: All right. So, as far as we know all that concern was unfounded. And then the judge -- or I guess the defense attorney brought up Katie Wick.

Now, I want to make this very clear. We do not pay Katie Wick. She is not employed by HLN or this program.

But, Katie, how did you feel when all of a sudden your name comes up in the courtroom?

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW`S JUROR: Oh, Dr. Drew, what a crazy day. I felt just shocked. I felt just, it`s so hard to describe. Just really surprised that a photo that I had with Juan Martinez -- and mind you, the reason I came down to this trial in the first place was not for the sensationalism of it. It`s because I`ve always had a passion for law, specifically prosecution.

And I have a lot of respect and admiration for Juan Martinez and the way that he prosecutes cases. And that`s why I got a photo with him.

And to think of it being put out there like this to sort of convey something that`s not -- that`s not there -- not true, was just shocking to me and absolutely disappointing.

PINSKY: Well, there you go. Well, Katie, we will see you later in the program. So sit tight. We will have you up for our jurors.

Now joining us, Mark Eiglarsh. He is the attorney with

Attorney Leo Terrell.

Leo, welcome. This is your first time with us. Thank you for joining us.

And HLN`s Beth Karas stays with us.

Now, one of the things we`ve been doing here -- of course, Michelle is with me as well, Michelle Ward. I`ve been in this opening this show I`ve been playing the role of expert witness. I want my attorneys and my guests to ask me questions that perhaps can mine some information, that can help us understand this case or think about it differently.

Perhaps, Mark, you first.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, if you`re playing the role of this domestic violence expert, the first of two questions that I think critical to ask is, first, number one, how cool was it to be the housekeeper for the Brady Bunch?


EIGLARSH: What? Too soon? OK.

PINSKY: Too soon, too soon, Mark. Yes, too soon.

EIGLARSH: Too soon, yes.

All right. Second question is, do you feel like the defense is using you? And by that, I mean, taking Jodi`s words, which were not necessarily believed, not necessarily credible, running them through you, you regurgitating what she told you to make it seem like it`s more believable and more credible what she`s telling the world.

PINSKY: If I were that witness and were I taking the tack that she had taken, I would actually say no. I would say that I would have very severe concerns about the facts as they were presented by the defendant. But I would say I`ve had the opportunity to present the landscape to the jury so they have a context. This is what I think this witness is doing a good job of, presenting being the landscape of domestic violence so the jury has a frame of reference to make a judgment on this.

Today, though, she took a couple body shots at the prosecution. We`ll talk about that as we go along.

But first, Leo, you`re up here. You`re the new guy. Go ahead.

LEO TERRELL, ATTORNEY: I need your help, Doctor. Let me ask you this, what do you think so far in the case has been the most compelling evidence to truly establish that Jodi was in fear of her life, to establish that self-defense argument?

PINSKY: So far, if I were trying to help you -- now mind you, I`m going to lay your witness now.


PINSKY: I would say, you know what? All -- we have lots of Jodi escalating the aggression and the violence with the tire-slashing and the breaking into the house and this sort of business. All we have is Jodi`s word on the escalation on Travis` part.

I would make a lot of that, that it became tit for tat sort of relationship where they started really escalating one another to the point where he`s snapped and all we have, unfortunately, is her version.

Now, me myself, I would say that`s all we have is her version of it and all her lies and all her distortions. I would tear me apart if I were the attorney talking to me, though.

Michelle, your question?

MICHELLE WARD, CO-HOST: Well, what if just one detail of this whole case changed in that when Jodi was attacking Travis, he actually was able o overcome her and killed her in his own self-defense? Would it be the same witness up there talking about Jodi`s -- or Travis` horrible childhood and talking -- I mean, would it be the same trial, just different players?

PINSKY: Michelle, isn`t that -- I`m -- loaded into that question is the answer isn`t it? It would be, because these people, this particular witness that we`ve seen on the stand, again, doing a good job. But she`s - - you could tip either way based on her testimony. You could say, yes, he has the potential to be an abuser but so does she.

WARD: That`s what I mean.

PINSKY: He has a potential a victim. Also, I completely agree with you.

Next up, Jodi admits to abusing a dog. That`s right, a canine. And my bureau, "Behavior Bureau" was actually licking at chops over this one.

And later, was Travis a controlling womanizer that Jodi claims? We`ll be back to discuss after this.



PINSKY (voice-over): Jodi Arias` defense paints Travis Alexander as a sexual deviant and an abuser.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Despite projecting himself as a good and virginal Mormon man, Jodi was Travis` dirty little secret.

You also have sexual humiliation and degradation. Somebody was terrorizing.

PINSKY: Portraying Jodi as a victim who killed to save her own life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On that horrible day, Jodi believed that Travis was going to kill her. In that one minute, had Jodi not been forced to defend herself, none of us would be here.

PINSKY: But we`re forced to ask, who was the real abuser in this relationship?

MARIE HALL, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: He had dated someone earlier that year. She`d slashed her tires. She had followed us on the first date that we went on. She had broken into his e-mail accounts and bank accounts. She have would sneak into his house through the doggy door and sleep on his couch at night without him knowing.

PINSKY: This is all Jodi admits.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: Other than arguments, no anger issues.

Oh, I kicked a dog once. We had this dog. His name was Doggie Boy. And I just, I got mad and I just kicked him with my right foot.

It changed my world as far as animal treatment goes. I just, I`ve never seen him since, and I need to apologize for that to him. I know it sounds weird, my relationship with animals. It`s kind of like they`re people too. And they have souls.


PINSKY: It is time for my "Behavior Bureau".

Back with my co-host, psychologist, Michelle Ward.

Oh, so, Jodi wants to apologize to Doggie Boy. She kicked the dog once.

Michelle, does that fit with your previous assessments of Jodi.

WARD: I`ve got a theory.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

WARD: I think this guy has been -- or girl -- guy -- girl has been studying her defense for so long. And she knows that lack of guilt and cruelty to animals is a big predictor of a future aggressive behavior. And so, she`s thinking, oh, I`m going to tell a story about how I did hurt a dog and how I felt about it. I just think it`s all part of her shtick.

PINSKY: Interesting. So, to reframe that -- many people that don`t have empathy and become destructive of other people will hurt animals and not be so concerned about it. And she knows that and wants to show guilt and remorse that she did it one time, right?

WARD: That`s what I think. >

PINSKY: All right. The rest of the bureau now joins us. Psychologist Wendy Walsh; the human lie detector Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me"; and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.

Cheryl, more emotion about the dog. What was that about?

CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Exactly. What was that all about that she had more emotion about a dog than about kill ago human being? I love animals as much as the next person. But I really think that there is such a chasm in between butchering a man and the sort of manufactured guilt she`s coming up with here.

I think she`s doing it as a strategy to make herself seem believable, like she`s disclosing something she did wrong and feeling guilty.

PINSKY: Right. And that was during the interrogation when she hadn`t admitted what she`d done, showing more remorse about the dog than -- forget the killing that her friend was dead.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think you`re right, Dr. Drew. This was during the interrogation. As we talked about the other day, she - - this was a time when she was trying to flirt and seduce with the guy by making sure she looks good in her picture.


WALSH: She wanted to make it seem that I -- the only bad thing I can remember doing is -- well, this one little bad thing, but other than that, I`m not a bad person, right?

PINSKY: Right. Doggie Boy, Janine, it was Doggie Boy. That`s the most -- I`m trying to think of something terrible I might have done. And that`s the worst thing that rocked my world.

WARD: Exactly.

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: It`s unbelievable. This is what happens. That dog didn`t make her work hard. She kicked the dog and he probably left (INAUDIBLE), she brushes off her shoulder saying thanks a lot. I didn`t have to work hard.

I think shy kicked Travis Alexander numerous times. How? Through sneaking into his e-mail and looking at his e-mails, through slashing his tires, through e-mailing female friends and threatening them. Travis made her work hard.

So, she finally slaughters him, stabbing him 29 times, shooting him in the head and slashing his throat, Jodi Arias is probably like how dare you do their.

Bernie Madoff, he is in jail. Bernie Madoff said it`s your fault America, you didn`t bust me sooner. Do you know the stress you people put me under by not busting me sooner?

It`s our fault. That`s what I think.


And, Janine, looking at her body language when shy was talking about the dog, did it seem faux or give you any information?

DRIVER: Well, it was interesting, because I think that she`s genuinely crying with the dog. And we don`t see that with Travis Alexander. She`s what I call, she`s a total wreck.

And it`s RECC. She focuses on rewards. Powerful liars focus on the rewards, not the consequences like an every day liar.

Her emotions. The R is reward. E is emotions. Emotions -- a person who has power when they lie, they have an increase in positive emotions in the moment of lying.

A C, cortisol -- cortisol decrease with the powerful person. When they lie, Dr. Drew, the stress hormone cortisol in their body literally decreases.

PINSKY: Right.

DRIVER: And last but not least, that last C that makes her a wreck is letter cognitive thinking. A powerful lie has an increase in cognitive thinking. One lie doesn`t work, bam. All right, I wasn`t there. Bam, that doesn`t work.

OK. Really, two strangers that came in and killed him then, they must have known him. Bam, that doesn`t work. Now, I`m a battered woman.

PINSKY: Another word for cognitive would be scheming.


ARUTT: Criminal.

PINSKY: Criminal is another good C word. And we had a G word last night. Gaslighting, what goes under that seem sort of category of cognition.

Next up, Jodi claimed Travis liked little boys. We`re going to get to that with the "Behavior Bureau". We`re going to get on that and take that apart.

And later, Travis or Jodi? Who was in fact abused in that relationship?

We`ll be right back to discuss.



ARIAS: I walked in and Travis was on the bed master baiting. And he started grabbing at something on the bed and I realized they were papers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was in the photograph? What was the photograph of?

ARIAS: It was a picture of a little boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there any discussion about why he wanted you to wear the boy`s Spider-Man underwear? The reason being if I understand it correctly, that he liked pretending that you were a young boy?


PINSKY: Back with ply co-host psychologist Michelle Ward and the "Behavior Bureau".

Michelle, I want to ask you a question and I`m going to take it around the horn to entire bureau here. I`ll start with you, Michelle.

Let people understand what deviant means. Is he a sexual deviant? And particularly as it pertains to pedophilia, what do you think?

WARD: Well, pedophilia is a really strong accusation. And the truth is we don`t know if Travis was a sexual deviant. I mean, I`m certainly not going to take Jodi Arias` word for to it and I don`t think anybody else is going to either.

It is a serious problem in our country and around the world. And deviant behavior isn`t necessarily a problem, but pedophilia is. It isn`t illegal necessarily to be deviant in a bedroom. I mean, shoot, there`s a lot of porno out there and that could be considered deviant.

But you can`t trust Jodi Arias. And that`s the problem. He could have been. We can`t know.

PINSKY: All right. I`m going to take the opinion that deviant, Cheryl, means deviating significantly from social norms. Now, he deviated a little bit from his religious and cultural values and he hid all that. He felt bad about that.

But I don`t think he deviated from social norms very far. And she was an active participant. And, by the way, pedophilia is not a passing fancy. It`s not a one day in a magazine I happen to look at.

ARUTT: Right.

PINSKY: It`s a commitment. It`s a thing.

ARUTT: It`s not like I think I`ll pedophilia this week. That sounds like fun. That`s not what people do.

You know, I think when we look at deviant, we need to look at the issue that you brought about consensual or not consensual. These were two people who were enjoying role playing, and role playing, pretending to be somebody that you`re not is not the same thing as actually having sex with somebody who is -- you know, a pedophile is somebody who`s sexually aroused by a little boy or little girl`s body that`s not developed. He was having sex with a grown woman.

And people don`t get to choose what their sexual template is. People who really do have pedophilia, they`re in agony about it a lot of the time. They`re like please help me. And there`s no evidence of this.

PINSKY: And they`re not quite as interested in the stuff that necessarily Jodi seemed interested in, right, Wendy?

ARUTT: Exactly.

WALSH: Yes. And, Dr. Drew, let me ask you this. I mean, assuming there is a grain of truth to this whole story that Jodi`s telling. Let`s just go out on a limb and guess there might be a grain of truth, if there were, do you think that there`s a difference between fantasizing about something and actually doing something?

PINSKY: Well, there is. It`s interesting. That`s what brought to bear in that recent cannibalism case. And if you`re looking at consuming material that has to hurt people in order to be produced then it`s a problem. But there`s no evidence of any of that.

Janine, back me up on this. We`re way off when we call this guy a pedophile. And I say we`re off when we call him a deviant.

DRIVER: Let me get this straight, Dr. Drew, she remembers the name of the dog is Doggie Boy. She kicked him with the right foot. She remembers when she turns when she turned her cell phone on after she slaughtered Travis Alexander. There were two bars and then one bar, then two bars and then none. But she doesn`t describe the picture of the boy? But she`s all missed details?

I just simply don`t buy it. Why -- tell me what he`s wearing? How old is he? What color hair does he have? Give me a description, Jodi Arias.

She`s deviating from her baseline. And this means she is a liar.

PINSKY: Tat will be that for the "Behavior Bureau" tonight. Thank you very much, guys.

Next, we know Travis had been warned about Jodi. Was she warned about him?

And later, the judge is in charge of the trial, but is she in control of the courtroom? Her report card. We`re going to give it to her, coming up.



WITNESS: He challenges her to read the book of Mormon. And then he tells her that he`s horny and they have oral sex. She performs oral sex on him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where does their happen?

WITNESS: In a parking lot.


WITNESS: Oh, yes, in a car in a parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And after she performs or gives him oral sex, does he leave?

LAVIOLETTE: He does. He gets in his car, and he leaves.

WILLMOTT: Is there an e-mail from Chris and Sky Hughes to Mr. Alexander?


WILLMOTT: Is there important information to you about what other people think or see how Travis is treating Jodi?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes. Information about her fear of telling him anything that she has a problem with, because he may reject her. Information that - - about his childhood that they think is greatly affected him in relationship to women.


PINSKY: Well, first we had Jodi`s amnesia guy. Now, that -- there was Jodi`s domestic violence lady. Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward, joining us as well, Travis` friend, Aaron Dewey and Abe Abdelhadi, who was on the phone and he actually went out with Jodi in one occasion.

And, Abe, I want to ask you, first about this car thing. In court, they were saying that she seemed demeaned or somehow felt bad about them having sex in the car. Didn`t you have an experience in the car with her where she didn`t seem so -- I don`t know -- reluctant?

ABE ABDELHADI, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: Yes. I wasn`t in the car. We were standing outside of the car. And, she didn`t seem to mind cars passing by and everything else. And, she didn`t seem necessarily to want to stop. I am sure that, you know, that she was into it. It wasn`t a bad thing. I`m not saying that made her a bad person. She was enthusiastic and she was fun.

And, by the way, Richard Nixon lost the presidency on way less evidence than what she is dealing with and I can`t give the stomach one more expert coming out and starting up another alternative reality as to what happened. I mean this is getting ridiculous. And, to listen to this lady today was driving me crazy.

PINSKY: Well, tell me what you mean. What drove you so crazy?

ABDELHADI: Well, because it -- what does that have to do with the fact that the guy got stabbed 29 times and his throat was cut and she admitted it --


ABDELHADI: Now, we`re just -- we`re going for intent. Was the intent really self-defense or was the intent really premeditated. And, there`s so much evidence to show the premeditation plus the photos plus the text, plus the emails, plus a million other people coming out of the woodwork and talking about what they saw.

This isn`t rocket science. It really is frustrating to see this getting pushed and pushed. And, then somebody on my facebook inbox would had through something, I mean saying that she deserves a fair trial. Listen, she has gotten more than a fair trial. If this was Saudi Arabia she would have been shot in ten days and it was her last meal.

PINSKY: Thankfully, my friend, Abe, it is not that. Aaron, let me go to you. Jodi`s team is trying to make Travis look now first a pedophile and now someone who is exploitative and abusive towards women. What do you think? What about that evidence that they -- I was sure they are reading about it. I think it was from actually Jodi`s diary or something. But, friends close to him had concerns about how he treated women.

AARON DEWEY, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: In all the time that I lived with Travis, never had any of those concerns. You know, if you want to see how Travis treated women, go back to the testimony of Mimi Hall. Look at the testimony of Lisa Andrews. Those are credible witnesses. Those are the people they connect who can really tell you how Travis behaved inside of a healthy Relationship.

PINSKY: That`s what I thought, Aaron. It`s once again -- Mark, going to you, it`s once again, the evidence says one thing and so they start trumping up other sorts of materials that don`t even address the evidence, but sort of distract from the evidence.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: That`s correct. I mean, it`s transparent to everyone and hopefully it`s transparent to the jury. The defense, they have a job to do. I don`t blame these defense lawyers. They have a job to do. And, the prosecution must then cross examine, and I am praying that one will simply turn this witness into a prosecution witness, not necessarily destroy her, but start off and make it very clear that your analysis is based on what she told you. If she`s lying to you, then everything that you`re saying doesn`t apply. Keep it simple. Keep it nice. That`s all he has to do.

PINSKY: Cheryl, what did you think of the defense witness today? I thought that she -- maybe Michelle, you can ring in on this too. But, you know, we got whole delays and things, so please don`t step on one another. She -- today, she brought up issues that, again, was contrary to evidence as stated in court but raised -- potentially raised doubt. Do you think it affected the jury?

DR. CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think the jury may have wondered briefly if Travis might have been a selfish lover, you know? But, I think what we have to remember is that Jodi hacked into Travis` e- mail account. She had access to his e-mail.

And, so some of these things that are being presented as evidence in addition to what she said to Alyce Laviolette is, you know, how do we know she didn`t go in and send e-mails from Travis or do any of these other things to cover your tracks. People, if you love somebody, no matter how awesome they seem, don`t give them your password. This is really important. I just want to let people know.

PINSKY: And, Cheryl, sometimes you say the most, coy interesting things --

DR. ARUTT: Thank you, Dr. Drew.

DR. REW: You said he`s a selfish lover? Is that -- That went right after him having intercoursed her brains out that`s why she is having a memory problem.


DR. ARUTT: Well -

PINSKY: No. It`s all right. It`s OK.

DR. ARUTT: Yes. I did say that.


PINSKY: Michelle, do you want to put a button on this?

MICHELLE WARD, CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I have something to say about this. You know, I think --

PINSKY: The defense is doing what the defense needs to do and we need to remember that. But, something about this witness keeps -- and I`m not trying to speak for every girl in America, but I`m thinking, God, I could have gotten away with murder so many times. The guy didn`t call me back. I was wondering if he liked me or the boundaries -- How to define this relationship, are you kidding me?


PINSKY: So, once again, Mark -- Mark --


PINSKY: My expert witnesses send chills down my spine.

EIGLARSH: Yes. You know, can I ask you something? Don`t you want to ask this woman like, you seem dedicated to the cause, domestic violence, aren`t there real domestic violence victims that you should be helping right now? Really?

WARD: Yes.

PINSKY: Well, OK. So, there`s enough said. Next up, it is report card time. How is the judge doing in this case? We will get grades from our experts. And, later my juror Katie Wick back with us after she got the surprise of her life in the courtroom this morning. Stay with us.

VINNIE POLITAN, "HLN AFTER DARK" HOST: Coming up at the top of the hour on "Hln After Dark," our bold accusation tonight, Jodi lied about the camera. We`ve got 12 jurors in studio. We`ve got you our virtual jury We will render a verdict by the end of the program, guilty or not guilty. Jodi arias lied about the camera.



SHERRY STEPHENS, ARIZONA TRIAL JUDGE: Are you able to state that Ms. Arias had either PTSD and/or acute stress disorder before the incident? Do you feel it is possible for an individual to fool professionals into believing they have suffered post-traumatic stress disorder? You said transient global amnesia can be caused by sexual intercourse, immersion in hot or cold water and a number of other things.


PINSKY: It is time for our trial report card. Back with my co-host Michelle Ward. We are asking the question how the judge is doing. Has she done a good job or has she let this thing spiral out of control a little bit or a lot.

Handing out the grades, Mark Eiglarsh, Leo Terrell, Janine Driver and Michelle of course, as well. And, everybody please hold your grades until the end. So, Mark, I was just thinking during the break, if we put Florence Henderson in as judge Stephens, and then Alyce as Alyce, or let Alyce Laviolette play Alyce. It would be a pretty good SNL skit, don`t you think?

EIGLARSH: Absolutely, yes.

PINSKY: So, is she -- I want to know, is she in control? You can continue to cast if you wish. But, is she in control of the court, yes or no.

EIGLARSH: Well, yes. The answer is yes. She immediately gets a decent grade because she`s not Judge Ito, I mean remember that nightmare.


EIGLARSH: But, she -- yes, she does. I would like to practice in front of her. I`ve been in front of judges who don`t rein in either side. Now, I think is fair to both. The only thing that I would say which is obvious especially because this trial is going on so long is that, she doesn`t have to have so many sidebars. Just go ahead and say overruled or sustained and let the cross examination or the direct flow. I think that there are times she has to go sidebar, but there are others she could just let it go.


LEO TERRELL, ATTORNEY: Is she in control, Dr. Drew? Yes. And, let me tell you. She has the right temperament. She doesn`t have to be a hard ass, excuse my language, to run that courtroom. She`s allowing all sides to exhibit their case, to present their case.

I think she`s doing a fine job and everyone is trying to do their best effort. I like the fact that she`s giving the defense an opportunity to present their case, because guess what? Jodi`s life is at issue here. So, I like her temperament. I like her attitude. I like her conduct. She`s doing a very, very good job.

PINSKY: Interesting. Janine, what say you?

JANINE DRIVER, AUTHOR OF "YOU CAN`T LIE TO ME": I disagree with the boys tonight, because I don`t think she`s doing that great. I think that - - I sat in the courtroom. And, I think a judge has to have a certain level of intimidation.

And, you see the normally, the defense attorney, he`s kind of leaning back in his chair. He`s not really paying attention. Jodi Arias is falling asleep in the afternoon. She`s taking a pill out a cup in front of -- I just think that there`s a level of respect that a judge deserves and that sometimes comes from a little bit of intimidation.

And, I`m not seeing it here. I speak to corporate America. If I let my audience when I speak at Aquino, eat me alive, I`d lose the audience right away. But, way out of the gate I have people standing up. I have them saying, "Yes, Janine" in a playful likable way, but I demand respect rate from the gateco, and I don`t see it here.

PINSKY: Michelle.

WARD: Although, I understand what Janine is saying and I agree with it. I think this judge is operating out of an abundance of caution and on her mind are mistrial and appeal.


WARD: And, I know it`s frustrating that it`s going on for so long, but we`re going to be a lot more frustrated if there`s something that causes a mistrial or if there`s an overturning of the conviction. And, that`s what she has to keep in mind. I think she`s a pretty fair judge.

PINSKY: It`s funny. As a lot more people are critical of her at the beginning, long before we got into this long drawn out trial, already people were complaining about it going on too long. Dana in California calling in with a grade. What say you?



GOULD: I have to give her a D minus at best. I just feel that she allows too many excuses for canceling court. She takes too -- there`s too many days taken off, be it Fridays. It`s just too much.

PINSKY: OK. Well, this is the kind of stuff we were hearing early on in the trial. But, I`m fascinated that the experts though are starting to -- she`s starting to warm up to the experts. Mark, what is your grade for the judge?

EIGLARSH: I disagree with the human lie detector tonight. Michelle is dead on. The judge has to be careful and not cause a mistrial. Nobody wants to go through this again. So, I would give her a B minus. Fewer sidebars and she`ll go up in my book.

PINSKY: B minus. Leo --

EIGLARSH: B minus.

PINSKY: Your grade.

TERRELL: Well, as a lawyer, any former schoolteacher, I`m qualified to give her a big boy B plus.

PINSKY: Nice. Nice. I was just thinking about her trying to intimidate Leo, and I don`t think that would work very well.

TERRELL: Never, never, never.

PINSKY: Janine, what is your grade for the judge?

DRIVER: I think the most important thing is that Mark, I think you could play in the role of either Peter Brady or Bobby Brady. I would put that out there. I give the judge a C. I give the judge a C, which is my equivalent to uh.

PINSKY: Middle grade. And, then Michelle, finally, what say you?

WARD: I`m a little boring. I`m going with the B. I`m going with the B.

PINSKY: All right.

WARD: For the reasons as stated.

PINSKY: All right -- The reason is?

WARD: Well, just you know, I mean that she`s not amazing. But, I think she`s cautious and I think that`s OK.

PINSKY: Fair enough. Hopefully, there will not be mistrials. There will not be appeals. That would solidify her grade, that`s for sure. Now, for the trial that is been captivating the country HLN is going to present a special program event tomorrow afternoon beginning at 1:00 p.m. We will be playing the most compelling, most stunning moments from that 18 days that Jodi Arias was on the stand. We all remember it. But, you are going to see the highlights. I`ll be there talking about it. Don`t miss it. It all begins tomorrow afternoon, 1:00 p.m. only on HLN.

Next up, juror Katie Wick is back with more on the drama from this morning. And, also the family, we`re wearing some interesting ribbons today in Jodi`s family. I want to hear about that. We`ll be right back.



WILLMOTT: Well, as an expert then, with regard to assessing relationships, does it speak to what Jodi might have been going through at that point?

LAVIOLETTE: Well, yes, because of the vulnerability coming out of the three-year relationship and because of the other things that I`ve talked about. I believe that Ms. Arias and because of her family history that her boundaries were probably a little more fluid than some other people`s boundaries at that point.


PINSKY: It`s time for Dr. Drew`s jury, back with my co-host, Michelle Ward and joining us, our jurors Katie Wick and Stacey Farrington.

Arias and because of her family history that her boundaries were probably a little more fluid than some other people`s boundaries at that point. Ladies, I`m sorry, I did not get the memo about wearing orange today. But, I`ll listen for your memo coming up.


Now, Katie, once you were covering from this morning`s events, what did you think of -- once, you`ve arrange your composure. Well, then what did you think of Jodi being painted as a -- hold on. What did you think once you were OK again, what did you think of Jodi being painted as a vulnerable abused woman.

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW`S JUROR: Well, Dr. Drew, it`s funny you say once I regained my composure because I sort of felt that I was in a fog, and my brain was a scrambled a little bit after that for the rest of the testimony that day. But, she is being painted as this victim.

And, what I -- what I noticed today was for once we actually hear Jodi, the witness saying, "Oh, Jodi told me this." "Jodi told me this." And, we`re finally at that point now where what Jodi said is coming in. Once again, to this trial, she`s trying to portray her as a victim.

And, I just don`t think it`s working, but I do want to mention, Dr. Drew, that today we have jury questions. This is the first day I`ve seen any jury questions submitted. And, it seems that they were submitted while she was talking about what Jodi said.

PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting. But, be careful what you stay on our program Katie. You might be up on the stand testifying about fogs and how fogs affect people.


PINSKY: Michelle, I saw you smiling. I saw you smirking, Michelle. I know that`s what you were thinking too.

WARD: I was just thinking what this trial needs is Katie up as an expert witness. I mean she`s compelling. She`s adorable. I have a quick question for the jurors --

WICK: Thank you.

WARD: And, that is, when I`m in the courtroom -- obviously, I`m studying the jury, trying to see if I can -- when I`m a trial consultant, trying to see if I can figure out their reactions. But, one of the most telling times is when they get up to leave for a break. Are they chuckling? Are they rolling their eyes? They`re admonished not to talk about the case, but are they communicating with each other? And, what does it look like?

STACEY FARRINGTON, DR. DREW`S JUROR: They do communicate with each other at times for sure.

WICK: And, I noticed last week when one of the -- when the jury was going back for lunch we actually heard -- and it was last week when people were just real goofy, giddy and laughing. And, one of the jurors actually went back, and we heard this huge laugh come out of her. Last week was the crazy week, but they are talking a lot more amongst themselves, definitely.

WARD: And, you do start to see the dynamics with some of them, the ones that kind of stick together. They made, you know, share a little comments to each other. So, it`s interesting to see that dynamic with the jury as well.

PINSKY: And, Michelle, does that tell you anything, what these ladies are describing?

WARD: Well, it can and at sometimes it does. And, I mean, often -- even you know this is a gruesome case, they`re spending a lot of time together, but you start to see the bonds form. You begin to say --


WARD: OK, these are going to be the allies, and these are going to be the opponents. And, that`s important in the deliberation room.

PINSKY: The survivor. Stacey, there was some talk that Jodi`s family was wearing blue ribbons today. Are those the ribbons that Travis` family wears? Or Katie did you see this? I`m confused about that.

FARRINGTON: Yes. Well, Travis` family does have the blue ribbons, and even I`ve got a blue ribbon. And, I know that there`s a lot of other people do. And, we were actually asked to not wear them anymore from the court. So, now then you see Jodi`s family wearing these, what look like blue ribbons. In do believe that they are not -- I think they are for domestic violence awareness ribbons --

PINSKY: Right. Right.

FARRINGTON: But, they actually do look like the blue ribbons, you know, that Travis` family is wearing.

WICK: And, I say --

PINSKY: OK. I got it.

WICK: Why can`t we wear a ribbon for Travis because he suffered violence in the end too.

PINSKY: Well, and as we have been through the case, we`re making it over and over again. He was the victim of domestic violence, and -- far be it from me. All right, thank you, ladies. Katie, thank you for hanging in there.

WICK: Thank you.

PINSKY: And, Stacey, thank you, as always.

FARRINGTON: Thank you.

PINSKY: Next, we`re going to ask why the world is interested in Jodi Arias. You will find out after the break.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. And, Michelle, if I don`t get a chance to say this towards the end of the program, you`ve done a great job this week. Thank you for all your insight and really well done.

WARD: Thank you for having me.

PINSKY: Now, there`s obvious we had ton of interest in the Jodi Arias case. But in Australia? Really? Well, joining us from down under is Elna. She doesn`t want to use last name as she had created a Facebook page about the trial and has about 30, 000 likes. Elna, how in the world did you come to this case? And, why are you interested from overseas?

ELNA UNIDENTIFIED, DR. DREW`S AUSTRALIAN JUROR: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thank you so much for having me on. I came across the case while I was watching 48 hours mysteries.

PINSKY: Right.

ELNA: And, in the first few minutes -- first few minutes, I knew immediately that she was not as innocent.

PINSKY: And, then when the case started you decided -- where are you following it? Are you following it on the internet? Do you get HLN over there?

ELNA: No. We`ve got Foxtel, which is digital TV like -- digital over here in Australia, which is a paid service. So, I watch the show and then I started investigating the case on the internet. And, I decided to then open a facebook page, which was in 2011 in August.

PINSKY: Got it. Let`s take a couple calls if we can get to it here. Stacy in Texas, do you have a comment for us?


PINSKY: Stacey.

STACEY: I think the expert that they have on the stand right now could take circumstances and bit some pieces from each in every one of our lives. And, it turned out to be one of her stories and make this easy to all of us to be an abuser or a victim.

PINSKY: Well, I have kind of -- that is sort of their job. Elna, what do you think of the witnesses that you have been -- that have been parading by recently?

ELNBA: The witnesses that`s been on the stand?


ELNA: Well, the witnesses for the defense, not everybody in Australia, you know, that`s following the case -- everything is based on lies.

PINSKY: Right.

ELNA: And, it`s based on what Jodi has done. It`s not -- no. Not good. Not good for the defense.

PINSKY: Melissa in Pennsylvania -- Melissa.

MELISSA UNIDENTIFIED, PENNSYLVANIA: Yes. I would like to know what kind of fog she was in when she kicked the dog. Maybe they should bring the dog in for the prosecution, so he could tell his side of the story.

PINSKY: So, yes, I think you`re right. I`m going to get Katie to talk about fogs. Michelle, this has been very interesting this week, don`t you think?

WARD: Absolutely, and although we`re all feeling frustrated I`m very thankful that we do have due process and right to a fair trial.


WARD: I mean -- this is, you know, the media and --

PINSKY: This is how it supposed to work.

WARD: Exactly.

PINSKY: Michelle, we got to go. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, Elna. Thank you for watching. I`ll see you next time. "HLN After Dark," it`s a great show. You got to watch it. It starts right now.