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Travis & Jodi`s Sex Life
Aired April 1, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias, guilty of sex talk.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: He wanted me to put pop rocks in my mouth while I gave him oral sex.
PINSKY: Sex taping.
ARIAS: Oh, my gosh. That is so debasing. I like it.
PINSKY: And sex testimony.
ARIAS: Seriously. You make me feel like a goddess.
PINSKY: Plus, does Jodi have daddy issues? Did Travis Alexander? Will the parent/child relationships help us understand a killer and her victim?
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host this week, there he is, shining, sparkling clean right along side of me, attorney Mike Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com.
And he and I are joined by attorney Areva Martin, criminal defense attorney Brian Claypool, "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas.
Now, Beth, you`re going to give us a little bit of an update, are you not, on all that went on in court today or didn`t go on in court today. And what some of the concerns are about the jury.
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Right, well, there may not have been court, but that doesn`t mean there`s not news. And that`s because the defense has filed yet another motion for a mistrial. But this time the focus is not on Juan Martinez. It`s on a juror.
They`re saying that juror number 5, one of the seven women on the jury is no longer fair and impartial. And she may have tainted the entire panel. They`re saying she made some comments -- we don`t know what they are -- but they learned about it when they talked to the jurors individually last Thursday.
And they`re saying if the judge agrees with them, the entire panel will be annihilated. The trial will go away, and they`ll have to start all over again. We do expect a decision at some point tomorrow.
PINSKY: Let m ask Beth and Mark what the probability of that is, as opposed to just bringing in one of the alternates and getting rid of that one that was chatting it up.
MARK EIGLARSH, CO-HOST: Drew, the chances are so low that the judge is going to knock this juror out. There`s nothing that this juror would have said to the other jurors that would have made them go, my gosh, Martinez is so popular. We must listen to what he has to say now. It`s silly.
PINSKY: Beth, do you agree with that?
KARAS: Well, we don`t even know what the topic is. I`m not sure it has to do with Juan Martinez, because based on the motion for a mistrial they don`t discuss Juan Martinez, except to say when we were questioning jurors individually about Martinez, we learned about a comment juror made. So, that makes me think another juror said, oh, and by the way juror number five said something.
Juror number five, by the way, is one of the active jurors. She sits on the front row. She takes a lot of notes and she asks a lot of questions. She submits questions any way for witnesses. She pays very close attention.
It is possible, though, that she will be removed, but not that there will be a mistrial. I think probably she`ll be removed.
PINSKY: All right. That`s good. I`m not going to waste any more ATP on this particular issue.
I`m going to play expert witness tonight. Again, I`m going to answer questions from my panel. We`re focusing on sex and its role in the trial. I think it`s one of the reasons people have been watching this thing.
There`s been so much of it. It`s been ridiculous. It`s been tootsie pops and pop rocks, and all of this happening in a court of law. It was really stunning to behold.
Areva, you first.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You know, one of the questions I want to ask you is we keep hearing from these experts that there`s some relationship between what happened to Jodi as a child that led her to commit this heinous crime. But I didn`t hear anything about her being molested or sexually abuse. So I want to know how is the defense going to really put on a credible case that something in her childhood caused her to want to be subjected to this deviant sexual conduct she was involved in with Travis and then how that led to these, you know, criminal acts, this criminal act of murder? How do we put all that together, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Well, I`m not sure that she was in deviant conduct necessarily. I mean, they were consenting adults. They were into some stuff that maybe is unsavory or unhealthy.
I`m not sure because we could qualify as deviant. She seemed to be a driving force behind it.
Do you remember those sex tapes? Control room, do we have any sex tapes available where she`s always -- can I do that? They`re getting one ready for that. You hear him talking about this crazy stuff and her going fantastic, I like that, that sounds great.
How`s he supposed to understand that this is not somebody that`s participating in this, and I say she`s actually the one luring him into it.
You`re right, Areva. There`s not the kind of ritualistic, horrible abuse that you expect to see from someone who blocks out and browns out, engages in violent behavior and doesn`t know what they`re doing. This is not that story.
This is a fog, Mark. This is your fancy fog. It`s a convenient fog, isn`t it?
EIGLARSH: Big time fog. It just didn`t fit. I don`t think anyone who listened to that audiotape went my goodness, what did Travis make her do? Just the opposite, I thought it was a huge blunder to introduce that audiotape.
Now we know. She was not only the willing participant, but she introduced that K-Y to the relationship. She`s no abused virgin.
PINSKY: All right. So, hold on.
MARTIN: But, Dr. Drew, are you going to be able to make a connection?
PINSKY: No, I can make -- here`s what I can make a connection with, is that she, the la violet, put out this beautiful sort of description of Travis` horrible childhood and how that could lead to an abuser. I say that can lead to being a victim as well.
And then she talked about interpersonal terrorism, which is where one person decides a relationship is over and the other ready to go. Things can break down. And then she described what they do. What does she describe? She describes exact will I what Jodi Arias did.
Now, control room, hang on here. Did -- is this the tape?
All right. I want you to watch this. This is all about their phone, their phone sex, their fantasy, their pop rocks. Take a look at this.
ARIAS: Seriously think about having sex with you every day. Several times a day. I think about how it feels to have your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) inside of me.
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: Sixty (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pics.
ARIAS: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
ARIAS: How will we do that?
ARIAS: Oh, yes. You`re smart.
ALEXANDER: I can`t wait to get pictures of (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on your face.
INVESTIGATOR: It`s you. Let`s just say I`ve seen all of you.
ARIAS: He had a list of fantasies that he wanted to fulfill.
ALEXANDER: Pop rocks.
ALEXANDER: I didn`t like the pop rocks as much as I liked the tootsie roll pops, though.
ARIAS: Yes. They were interesting.
ALEXANDER: The pop rocks got all over the place.
ARIAS: I just live my life by the Ten Commandments and those are my rules, da, da, da, da, you know? Thou shalt not this or that. But it doesn`t say thousand thou shalt not fornicate.
ALEXANDER: I`m a giver, so I don`t mind recouping while I`m doing what I need to do to you, so --
ARIAS: I`m giver.
ALEXANDER: I agree.
ARIAS: I like being handled. I like being handled.
He finished by (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on my back or somewhere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After this encounter on this spiritual day, how did you feel about yourself?
ARIAS: I kind of felt like a used piece of toilet paper.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: When you tell us that he made, that you felt like a used piece of toilet paper --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You made the comment, made the comment on direct that you felt like a used piece of toilet paper. Do you recall that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was it about your relationship with him that went so wrong? That would end up like that?
ALEXANDER: Speaking of got some good crap to talk about -- where we at? Where we at?
PINSKY: My producers seem completely preoccupied with the role the toilet paper has played in all these tapes and all the proceedings on court. But is it a metaphor for what generally goes on in there, which in the courtroom, which is you`re hearing stuff that is unfathomable. You can`t believe -- first of all, I wonder why that tape exists. Why does she have at that tape? Have any of you heard that?
Brian, have you heard, any of you -- (a), have you heard that? And, (b), do you think like, Mark, it`s a blunder that they played that tape?
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, ATTORNEY: Well, Drew, I don`t want to talk about that. I want to talk about what`s going on behind everyone else`s closed doors with the pop rocks and the toilet paper. Here`s my question --
PINSKY: Brian is missing out on something. I notice Mark didn`t go down that path. It`s fun eye what you learn about other people`s behaviors by what they ask and what they don`t ask. It`s very interesting on my show.
But I`m just saying, Mark. I`m just saying.
But, Brian, seriously, do you think they blunder by playing that tape?
CLAYPOOL: Well, yes. I really do. I mean, I don`t really see the point of the tape. And I really feel like in this case, Drew, a big thing that people are seeing is they`re looking at this, and they`re saying, wow, what`s going on behind our closed doors. My question for you is, do you think the shame that`s associated with all this is amplified just because it`s out in public in the courtroom?
PINSKY: Sure. Of course. I mean, that`s all you see on Jodi is sort of embarrassment and shame, because this is actually having to come up. There`s a little bit of sort of -- there`s some underlying glee there that she`s sort of outing Travis in some weird way as well. And then when you do finally get tears, it`s when she gets cornered and panicky.
But yes, there`s not -- anybody, wouldn`t you be mortified by this? I mean, just absolutely mortified? But why did she have a tape in the first place?
MARTIN: I don`t know, Dr. Drew. I don`t know if she`s ashamed.
PINSKY: Well, she`s not ashamed, that`s the what I`m saying. Rest of us would be absolutely horrified.
MARTIN: I think she is -- she`s gloating. I think she`s gloating -- we`re seeing her --
PINSKY: There`s some glee under there, I get. There`s a little bit of glee. But there`s a little bit of embarrassment, but not the mortification that the rest of us would have.
I got to take a break.
MARTIN: No. None.
PINSKY: Next up, the "Behavior Bureau" gets -- yes, got to take a break. "The Behavior Bureau" gets down and dirty with Jodi`s X-rated testimony, her x-rated testimony.
And later, did daddy issues lead to any of Jodi`s problems, including ultimately becoming a killer?
PINSKY: We see her doing this. We see her stealing something. A shoplifter I would say, oh, there are some security footage here of somebody shoplifting. What does she do with that?
It`s one of the weirdest -- Janine, go ahead. Janine --
JANINE DRIVER: Hey, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, Janine, go.
DRIVER: She hasn`t had anything back there for a while, so she wanted you know, to take care of some business under that sexually active --
PINSKY: Easy, easy.
ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) by the way.
PINSKY: What`s that?
ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) by the way.
PINSKY: Oh, my gosh, that is so debasing. But I like it. Oh, my gosh. You are full of ideas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question about, for example, of K-Y jelly. One of the reasons she brought -- OK, who cares, seriously? Come on, guys. She cooked with it, you know?
EIGLARSH: I agree with dear friend Marcia Clark who, by the way, did say K-Y jelly on national television.
PINSKY: Thank you for that.
PINSKY: Hang on, Mark, back when I was watching the O.J. trial back in the day, I would dream to this, so here we go.
EIGLARSH: Maybe it would have fit if he had a little K-Y.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!
MARTINEZ: It`s you sending this text message, right?
ARIAS: That`s right.
MARTINEZ: The reason I was asking about later tonight is because I want to give you a nice B.J. and I`d like a generous facial in return, right?
That was surreal. I mean, the candlelight and the bubbles all had something to do with it, but you were amazing. You made me seriously, you made me feel like a goddess.
PINSKY: Jodi, the goddess, and the "Behavior Bureau" misbehaving. Bad, bad behavior by the "Behavior Bureau".
Back with my co-host, attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Mark, I like if the glove does not fit, you must use K-Y, but do you ever get over the trauma of hearing Marcia Clark use the K-Y term on national television.
EIGLARSH: No, I love her, like I watch that entire trial, and there I was hearing Marcia Clark talk about something she shouldn`t, you know? Very naughty. Very naughty indeed.
PINSKY: And, by the way, you upped it a little bit. You put it to another level with the glove and all. I`m just saying. I`m just saying.
EIGLARSH: Thank you.
PINSKY: Always a pleasure.
Joining us, we have in the "Behavior Bureau", first of all, Janine Driver, the human lie detector. She`s the author of "You Can`t Lie to Me"; infidelity expert and criminal investigator Danine Manette; and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
All right. Cheryl, Jodi`s defense says Travis was the sexual deviant. But let`s see, when he suggests deviant behaviors, if we call it such, her response is oh, my gosh, that is so debasing. I like it.
Cheryl, help me understand what the point is.
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, she likes going to that edge. And she likes doing something that is a little taboo, that`s a little risky. And I think that`s the point that she was the girl that Travis could get kind of freaky with and do things that he couldn`t really probably easily find in his congregation.
PINSKY: My understanding is you had done, Cheryl, a little research recently as well about these sorts of behaviors. What did you find out?
ARUTT: I love this job.
PINSKY: Ask Cheryl about the research.
ARUTT: OK. You ready for this, Dr. Drew?
ARUTT: I actuall6y did a little research about the prevalence of heterosexual anal sex and here`s what I found. What I found out was that in 1992, it was about one in four men and one in five women had tried it. And by like 2005, it was 40 percent of men and 35 percent of women. So it`s like one in three women and almost half of the men have done this with heterosexual partners.
So, can we say something is really deviant even if we personally don`t want to do it, if that many people seemed to be doing it at home?
EIGLARSH: Wow, wow, Drew --
EIGLARSH: Drew, they say about 80 percent of statistics are made up right on the spot. I don`t know. Is that real? That many people?
ARUTT: It`s real. I can show you my sources.
EIGLARSH: Thank you. Thank you for your research.
ARUTT: I love my job.
PINSKY: It depends on the age group you`re looking at, but it sounds --
ARUTT: Like 19 to 44. I`ll show you my data.
PINSKY: It`s OK. I don`t necessarily want to see it. I`ll just use my imagine nation, as they say.
PINSKY: I want to go to Denine.
EIGLARSH: Someone else.
PINSKY: You are a newcomer to this panel, but you must do a lot of work in stalking. That`s sort of your area.
Is this a familiar story to you, that someone -- here, you tell me. Is this a familiar story to see a couple break down like this that`s gotten overly intense sexually, breaking down into violence?
DANINE MANETTE, INFIDELITY EXPERT: Oh, sure, because there`s no level, the level that you need to be satisfied gets higher and higher and higher. And I honestly don`t think there`s any deviation here. Because, you know, if that`s what they both agreed to do in their relationship, she likes it, he loves it whatever. I find the deviation comes in when she says she walked into the room and found her guy whacking the wheely looking at a little boy`s picture, and that wasn`t a turn off for her.
You know, to most normal people, that would be a deal breaker. But for her, to continue to have a relationship with him after that fact, I have a problem with that.
EIGLARSH: I have a question for you and Danine, OK? If you believe the state`s theory, this is a woman who drove from another state with the intent to kill. So, she drives. I`m going to kill him, I`ve got a gun, I`ve got gas loaded up. I`m going to kill him. I`m going to kill him.
She gets there. She doesn`t kill him. She sleeps with him, then she kills him.
I can`t figure that out. Is that anything like Al Pacino in "The Godfather" kissing Fredo and then having him executed? Seriously, what this is about?
MANETTE: It`s like the black widow. You have sex with him. And then you kill him. That`s what the black widow does.
PINSKY: Wow, OK.
Janine, put a little button on this for us. I got to go to break. What are your thoughts?
DRIVER: Well, two things. I want to say, number one, 80 percent of lies go undetected. So, we think of deception, 80 percent of us who are cheating or who are having multiple relationships are lying potentially about it.
And since 1991, men over the age 60 years old have doubled in infidelity, married men have doubled in infidelity. Women over the age of 60, tripled. We like our sex is what I`m saying, Dr. Drew.
EIGLARSH: A lot of stats tonight.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. We`re keeping this going after the break. Be right back.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
PINSKY: And cat tonic. That was the many faces of Jodi Arias.
Back with my "Behavior Bureau" and this week`s co-host, Mark Eiglarsh.
All right. Now, listen, we have very limited time here, guys.
But, Janine, you struck a cord here going into that break. I want to continue this even tomorrow a little bit because we`re not really getting Danine into the infidelity part of the story. But that would be very interesting to dig into.
But, Mark, do you ever cheat on your spouse?
EIGLARSH: Are you joking? Number one, never, 12 happy years, but if I did, am I going to tell everybody here? Really?
DRIVER: Mark, that`s a stalling technique. Mark, that`s a stalling technique. Warning, warning.
EIGLARSH: Stop it. I love my wife. Excuse me. You asked me the question.
Baby, I love you. Can`t wait to come home and see you.
PINSKY: But here`s my point, is that -- lots of my viewers don`t cheat either. You mean those of us that are not cheaters have to worry that our spouses are cheating and lying about it?
DRIVER: Or when you`re asked, "Are you cheating?" you can simply say, no, not overcompensate like Mark just did, which is --
EIGLARSH: Holy cow. You know what? I used to like you. You`re no lie detector.
DRIVER: But that makes one (ph) of us. I`m just kidding. I love you. Hey.
EIGLARSH: All right, you guys, let me ask -- go ahead, Janine.
DRIVER: Well, I was just going to say that deception is prevalent. We lie one in five social situations. College kids, one out of three. And it goes to spectrum.
A pro- social lie is, do I look fat in this outfit? You`re not going to say no. That fat makes you look fat. That`s a pro-social lie.
Then we go to the Lance Armstrongs, lying to the point where you sue somebody and win money, and defame their name, and the Jodi Ariases.
So, lying, we lie one in five social situations.
PINSKY: All right. I hate to think that.
Danine, very quickly.
Cheryl, I won`t have time for you on this particular block, I`m sorry.
But, Danine, the infidelity part of this, you said it was weird that Jodi didn`t leave when show saw him with the pictures of the little boy.
ARUTT: Right, yes.
PINSKY: Pedophilia is not a part time thing. Do you believe that she actually saw him with the pictures of the little boy?
MANETTE: No, I don`t.
PINSKY: All right.
MANETTE: But the fact that she says he did and she didn`t leave him, she`s that makes her freak. She`s a freak. That fact that she --
PINSKY: There you go. Next up, go to break, what does Jodi`s father have to do with the way she acts with men? We`re going to explore that.
And later, jurists answer this question, is a real juror flirting with Jodi?
Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with Jodi, there were times that she was, I think, sort of gin appropriate. He would talk about Jodi`s body. He would talk about her boobs being too small. I think sort of sexually inappropriate comments.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your dad hit you with a belt.
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After age seven?
He would just shove me into furniture, sometimes, into the piano or things like that, into tables, chairs, desks, whatever was around. He would just push me really hard and I would go flying into that. One time, he hit me into the door post, the side of my head hit the door post and it knocked me out momentarily.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please explain the events, again, that led up to your dad slapping you during the incident you described earlier.
ARIAS: I`m not clear if that`s when he knocked me out or the actual slap.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi`s father was controlling and manipulative. He was jealous and didn`t want her to spend time with her family members, particularly, her sisters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Didn`t want who?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry. Didn`t want Jodi`s mother. He`s on dialysis. And there`s a schedule for going to the hospital and that he would, sometimes, manipulate and wait until the last minute.
ARIAS: My dad is not doing well. He doesn`t have very long to live, and he always says that. It`s been like that for a decade.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Back with my co-host, Mark Eiglarsh. Jodi testified to difficult relations with her parents, shall we call it that. She claimed her dad was physical, sexually inappropriate, verbal. He was dying but not dying, a manipulative, ridiculed her for -- ridiculed the mom for gaining weight.
So, our question this evening is how as this has sketched out, if we are to believe it, if it actually occurred, and Mark, you have a question about that, right?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL; DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Drew, let me ask you this. Did you watch the "48 Hours" interview? If you did, you hear what that same mouth, that same face, that same expression, her giving a completely different version of her childhood. It was a wonderful childhood.
EIGLARSH: No problems.
EIGLARSH: So, how do you discern which is the truth? The answer is you don`t. You don`t. It`s reasonable doubt. You cannot believe anything that flows from her lips.
PINSKY: I agree with you, Mark. And were I doing an evaluation on her, I would start from that. But all we`ve got is what she tells us. So, let`s work with what she`s given us. Let`s make an assumption that there`s something factual --
EIGLARSH: Big asterisk (ph). Big asterisk (ph).
PINSKY: I grant you that. And by the way, what I think you`re going to find out from this conversation even with that asterisk, we are not going to get from the difficult dad to a murder. It doesn`t -- the dots don`t connect. Cheryl Arutt, Janine Driver, and Danine Nanette -- Manette, I beg pardon.
All right. So, you guys, Cheryl, I didn`t get you last setup, last blocks, so let`s get to you this time. Do you agree with what I was just saying? Let`s assume everything she`s saying is accurate, again, big asterisk. Probably not. But if were, can we go from what she is saying to the kind of brutal murder we have here?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Of course, there is absolutely none of this that takes us to oh, of course, that`s why she brutally murdered this guy. You know, it`s not uncommon for someone who does have an abusive background to idealize their parents, though, and to say things like she said, I had an awesome family. I had a great childhood and to kind of paint broad strokes that way.
I think it`s possible that she did have an abusive background. I see it more in the glee that she had making this judge and jury sit through all this shock value dirty talk and like, ooh, I`m going to make them talk about these words that we just talked about. But you don`t get --
PINSKY: Explain that. What is the connection there? Why would somebody who`s been abused have glee about talking about something embarrassing?
ARUTT Well, it`s, the glee seems to be in saying, you know, I`m going to make -- it`s a glee in the shock value. It`s the glee in putting this unsavory stuff or shocking stuff in people`s faces.
PINSKY: Got it. Got it. I see. Oh, really? Back for (ph) mom and dad. I get it. Janine, How about you? Yes. Janine, you got something to say.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: I got to say this. She`s doing like what we call in my world, offering evidence before it`s asked. She`s telling us information before she`s even asked about it. We heard this with the knife as well when we had, you know, the prosecuting attorney saying, OK, well, did you have the knife or did you have to go get the knife?
And she said randomly, well, maybe Travis had the knife out of nowhere. Offering evidence before it`s asked. That`s like if you said to me, Janine, I want to let you know, I`m not the kind of host that`s going to bad mouth you when you`re off the show. Why would tell me something like that? That`s offering evidence before it`s asked.
That`s like me saying, Dr. Drew, I want to let you know, I`m never going to kill a man who co-host a radio show with Adam Corolla. I`ve never done that and I don`t plan on doing it.
PINSKY: Thank you, Janine. That means you`re going --
EIGLARSH: Do you think that -- you`ve listened to her testify for 18 days, plus you`ve seen the interviews.
EIGLARSH: Your gut. What does it tell you? Do you think that she`s had the kind of childhood that she would like this jury to believe?
DRIVER: Oh, please.
PINSKY: Yes. I think she has a bad gene. I think she has a bad genetic thing. I think Cheryl would agree with that. I think Janine would agree with that. And I think she had something go on in the environment. I would expect something a lot worse. As I said, if somebody is disassociating and fogging out or blocking out, they really have horrible experiences.
She didn`t have good experiences. She had some awful stuff, but it doesn`t really -- it doesn`t add up at this point. Danine, take me through these kinds of relationships with the dad and the kind of relationship that she ended up with, with Travis. Helm me understand that.
DANINE MANETTE, INFIDELITY EXPERT: You know, I`m just so sick of this whole blame game thing. It`s just like it`s everybody`s fault. It`s the teacher`s fault, it`s mom`s fault, it`s dad`s fault. It`s like nobody got all 52 cards growing up. I mean, you know, that`s just the way that it is.
And this feeling that she needs to just project and project, and you know, you cannot go logically from be being spanked with a belt to stabbing someone 29 times and shooting them in the head. It`s just not a natural progression. So, I`m just not even trying to hear it. I`m not trying to hear it.
PINSKY: Right. Here`s not a natural progression there.
PINSKY: How about Travis` -- yes. Cheryl.
ARUTT: I just got to say, though, is anybody struck by how she remembers every single bit of these other supposed abuse incidents, and there`s no fog?
EIGLARSH: That would be -- listen, that would be a feature in my closing argument. I would say, and I would actually have a chart of all the things that she remembered. The drink that she drank seven years ago. Listen, I don`t know what I drank at the table for dinner tonight with my family. This gal remembers that, but then has the fog come in?
I would exploit that as being thoroughly illogical. I`m not alone, I would say. You can`t believe a damn thing she has to say.
DRIVER: Mark, she kicked the dog with her right foot. She remembers kicking the dog with the right foot. She remembers how many cell phone bars she had. It`s ridiculous.
PINSKY: However, the fog is now moving in and I must move on. Thank you, guys. Good panel.
Next up, Jodi has a visitor in jail. One of them is Travis Alexander`s friend. He will tell us -- he`ll be here. He`ll tell us why he went, what she told him.
And later my jury, they`re going to stay on this thing until the bitter end. And we`ll stay with them. Is it the sex that keeps them involved in this thing or maybe it`s the sex or the sex or the sex tapes? We`ll ask them after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she gets the morning, half of the morning, sack in the morning, about seven or so, she gets a lunch sack that the rest of that happened to sack at lunch, and then she`ll get a night meal, about six or eight at night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: For those of you that are worried that Jodi might not be eating enough, there you go.
Back with my co-host, Mark Eiglarsh. Joining Marj and myself as well as Brian Claypool and Areva Martin, and all three of you guys, if you have any questions for my guest, Aaron Dewey, please, call out my name and I`ll get you right to him. Aaron was Travis` friend and roommate. And he believes Jodi murdered him. We know she did.
So, my question, though, to Aaron, first, I`ll start with the first question, what were the circumstances, sort of why did you go visit her, and what did she say when you got there?
AARON DEWEY, TRAVIS` ROOMMATE: I went to visit her in jail. It was actually on Christmas day back in 2008. I was home alone, away from my family, and I kind of wanted to go and make peace with Jodi. I wanted to give her the opportunity to come clean, to share anything that she wanted to share.
You know, she`d already, before she was arrested had divulged some personal information, so I thought maybe she`ll give me something. At this point, she was still sticking to her, you know, ninja intruder story. So, I wasn`t sure if she would say anything, and she didn`t.
PINSKY: Now, Aaron, you have quite a lengthy relationship with her. You went with her to the memorial for Travis. You drove her, I believe, to the first police interrogation. You visited her in jail. You were there as a roommate of Travis` when show was hanging and. Can you help us understand her any better than we do? Please?
DEWEY: I wish I could. You know, the Jodi that we first met several years ago seemed like a very pleasant, well-rounded person. She evolved into some unusual behaviors that we`ve also discussed with stalking, breaking into e-mail accounts, sending text messages, pretending to be Travis. So, the whole persona of Jodi shifted while I knew her. And it continues to devolve every single day that we see her in court.
PINSKY: And you look terrified.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, I have a question for Aaron.
PINSKY: Go Areva, go ahead.
MARTIN: Aaron, one of the things I want to ask is what`s so missing in this trial are witnesses to corroborate Jodi`s testimony about this violent behavior of Travis. Now, you were their friends and you were with them during this relationship. Did you see, you know, Travis strike Jodi or any of this other violent behavior that she`s testified to during the trial?
DEWEY: Never. I never even heard him raise his voice to her. So, the fact that there`s nothing to corroborate what she`s saying is a pretty good indication that things didn`t go down the way that she`s claiming.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Is there one time that you heard during the 18 days that she testified where you go, wait a second, now she`s lying. That for sure is not true, and it can be proven, otherwise. Is there anything that you know about her and the situation between her and Travis were you go, that`s it? Let me go tell the prosecutor, I know this for a fact.
DEWEY: You know, I can`t say that there`s things that I know for a fact weren`t true. You know, just like any pathological liar, there`s little bits of truth sprinkled in to a huge bundle of lies. And that`s how she carries her story on. But, you know --
EIGLARSH: She`s a good liar. She`s a good liar.
DEWEY: Oh, yes. Very good.
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, ATTORNEY: Hey, Drew, can I ask a quick question?
PINSKY: Bryan, please, go right ahead.
CLAYPOOL: Yes. Aaron, a quick question for you. Jodi Arias, to me, is a seductress. Have you ever seen her with her make-up off, has she ever looked bad?
DEWEY: Well, the day that I went and saw her in jail, she definitely wasn`t made up. You know, she wasn`t expecting any visitors that day. I wasn`t expecting to go see her. I just kind of did it on a whim, but you know? We saw her talk about how she needed her makeup before an interrogation. She had to make sure that she looked perfect for her inside edition interview. It`s all part of this persona of trying to present something that`s not real.
PINSKY: Let me take a question from a caller. This is Noni in Canada. Noni, you got something for Aaron?
NONI, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Yes, I do. My question for you, Aaron, is, did you at any time sense that Jodi was trying to carry out an agenda of her own by allowing you to visit her in jail?
PINSKY: Hmm. Interesting.
DEWEY: Possibly. I had heard, never confirmed, but I had heard that she had other friends and family members that tried to go see her in jail. And she turned them away. She didn`t want to see them for whatever reason.
EIGLARSH: Did she want anything from you, Aaron? Did she try to ask for you to do something or bring her something? Did she try to manipulate you in any way?
DEWEY: No. I mean, she asked me to keep in contact, you know, just so she had somebody on the outside world to connect with. But I never -- I haven`t spoken with her, never send her a letter, nothing since the day that I went to see her in jail.
PINSKY: All right, guys. Thank you very much. Aaron, thank you for coming back and talking to us. It`s very interesting. You have a perspective that really nobody else does. And I assume just to put a little cap on this, it went bad when Travis wanted to leave. That was when the craziness really started, right?
DEWEY: Yes, absolutely.
PINSKY: Yes. Aaron, thank you very much. Against, just the way LaViolette -- or whatever -- I`m forgetting her right now -- LaViolette`s painted it. When one person wants to leave, the other one isn`t done. That`s when the violence ensues. There is Jodi.
Next up, Jodi trying to hard to communicate with this jury, but is she, in fact, flirting with one of the jury members? My jurors are here after the break with their interesting observations about that.
PINSKY: It is time for "Dr. Drew`s Jury." With me this week, my co- host, Mark Eiglarsh. And joining us from the jury, Katie Wick and high school student, Kjersten Pinc.
Katie, I want to go out to you first. Where are they? Let`s get to them here. Come on now. There they are. So, Katie, you told my producers that Jodi and a male juror appeared to be flirting. What did you see?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, I just want to clear this up, Dr. Drew, actually, because I have had so many people tweeting me, saying, Katie, what`s going on. I hear that there`s a male juror and Jodi that are tweeting, and I just want to say right now, I have not seen any of that. And Dr. Drew, there are so many rumors going around right now. The rumor wheels are spinning.
And I just want to say somebody`s got to take this ship and start turning it in the right direction. I mean, start focusing once again on what this trial is about, which is rending justice for Travis` family.
PINSKY: Give is another one. Tell us another one you heard. We`re not hearing them out there. What do you hear?
WICK: Rumors about that, rumors about, God, what was the other one the other day I heard? Oh, maybe somebody talking in the lunch room. There was an instance when I was in the lunch room, and there was a juror and she just asked me if I was in line and I said no. And Nermie (ph) was right next to me and I know he was -- they`re waiting to just get to anything, Dr. Drew. It`s par for the course.
PINSKY: Got it.
WICK: We hear there`s another mistrial, perhaps, so --
PINSKY: Right. Mark, does that surprise you, all these sort of desperate attempts to try to undermine the trial?
EIGLARSH: Yes. That is what they do. And what I would tell your juror is listen, what people say or what people think of you is none of your business. Don`t worry about it.
WICK: Thank you.
PINSKY: Kjersten, you`re a defense attorney not yet necessarily in training yet, but you`re hoping to be one one day. Do you see them pushing for a --
PINSKY: Mark, maybe you can give her advice.
EIGLARSH: Oh, I`ve got questions for you. Listen, I`m going to ask you what I got to ask every week. How could you defend those guilty people? Really? You want to be a defense lawyer? Go ahead, answer.
KJERSTIN PINC, DR. DREW "JUROR": You`re not only representing guilty people. I`m just saying you`re not always defending guilty people.
EIGLARSH: Oh, OK. Well, what about the 99 percent of the other time? Come on!
PINC: They deserve the best representation. Someone`s got to do it.
EIGLARSH: Atta girl. Good. You survived. Good.
PINSKY: Mark, aren`t you going to -- aren`t going to give her not proven -- what was your thing you used to yell at me --
EIGLARSH: Right. It`s not about whether they did it or they didn`t do it. It`s whether the prosecution can prove it beyond the exclusion of a reasonable doubt. And in this case, they have.
PINSKY: Now, let`s get a call in here. Kristina from Arizona -- Kristine, you got something to ask my jury?
KRISTINA, ARIZONA: I sure do, Dr. Drew. Does -- I know that they observe all the jurors. Does juror number five, does her audible, animated responses seem to reflect her bias, obviously? And if so, does it seem to lean more toward (ph) the prosecution or for the defense?
PINSKY: Katie, do you want to address that?
WICK: Oh, yes, I would love to. It`s funny, because Dr. Drew, this is the juror that I`ve been talking about since the very beginning. The one that sits up, the one that takes note, the one that is always -- it`s like she`s watching a tennis match between the lawyers and the witness. I am not surprised that this is the juror, because she seems, she could go either way.
There was a moment there she was taking a lot of notes with the defense when Juan Martinez -- I saw her submit a lot of notes into the question box to Jodi. So, I don`t think we can really say whether she would go one way or the other. It`s obvious that based on -- I read what the defense said, his explanation as to why they want her removed. It sounds like maybe she was leaning toward the prosecution.
PINSKY: OK. Finally, Christie in Arizona -- Christie.
CHRISTIE, ARIZONA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just want to make a quick comment here about what you guys were talking about earlier, about Travis and Jodi`s sex life. I believe in today`s standards, it`s very normal for what they were doing. I don`t want people to lose sight of the fact that Jodi was progressively aggressive with him. She`s the one that advanced the nature of their sex life.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, I agree with you. And that`s why I say she was using -- one using sex and guile to bring him into an abusive situation, which, when he wanted to leave, that`s when things went bad.
PINSKY: Kjersten, it`s your birthday today. Is that right? You`re 18.
PINC: It is.
PINSKY: Guess what, we have --
EIGLARSH: Happy birthday.
PINSKY: -- being delivered by our producer, Bill Henkel (ph). There it comes right now. Bill is going to give you a special gavel and a cake.
PINC: Thank you.
EIGLARSH: Very nice.
PINSKY: Happy 18th birthday. There you go, guys.
EIGLARSH: Go defendant guilty person for your birthday. Go for it.
PINSKY: All right. We got to go to break. More of that jury after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Mark Eiglarsh, and my jury. I`m going to go to a caller in just a second. But Katie, I`m still trying to get an image in my mind erased of you standing next to defense Attorney Nermie (ph) in the lunch line. That`s quite a scene, I`m sure. The people might have expected --
PINSKY: No, I`m just thinking -- what`s going to happen here? how`s that going to go down? All right. Karla in Utah, you have a question for the jury.
KARLA, UTAH: Yes. I`m a church leader of some young women, and I`m just wondering how do I teach these girls the difference between obsession and love?
PINSKY: Oh, boy. Well, I tell you one thing. This is sort for me, which is, don`t let them confuse intensity for love. Young people particularly fall for that intensity is love. Intensity is not love. Reciprocity, mutuality, actual caring is empathy. That`s really where it lies.
OK. Ladies, I think I`m running out of time, but any last minute observations you want to give us before I go to break again?
WICK: Just basically we`re going to hear more of what Jodi said. And this is it. You know, three strikes and you`re out. And it`s going to be really interesting to see what happens in this hearing tomorrow, Dr. Drew. I don`t want to say I`m excited, but I`m looking forward to -- it`s par for the course right now with the defense. So, we`ll see what happens.
PINSKY: And Kjersten, Kjersten, are you going to stay in there in the courtroom for a while?
PINC: Yes. I plan on going tomorrow. So, we`ll see what happens.
EIGLARSH: Are they going to remove this juror or not?
PINSKY: Hold on. We`ll have to see tomorrow. Got to go to break. Thanks, Mark Eiglarsh. You did a great job. Thank you all for watching. I will, indeed, see you next time. We`ll have to find out tomorrow. Reminder that "HLN After Dark" begins right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight`s bold acquisition, Jodi stabbed first.
ARIAS: I remember dropping the knife and it claimed to the file (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our live jury is here to weigh the evidence and cast their vote with you, guilty or not guilty.
In studio 7, This is "HLN After Dark." Here now Vinnie Politan and Ryan Smith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)