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Juror Kicked off Arias Jury for Misconduct

Aired April 2, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell.

An emotion-packed day in court. Victim Travis Alexander`s family is left sobbing, as you see there, as the defense manages to get a female juror kicked off for alleged misconduct. Jodi is all smiles. So was this juror that got kicked off a pro-prosecution juror? Could this derail the prosecution`s case?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kirk Nurmi accusing Juror No. 5 of jeopardizing this trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a possibility of a mistrial?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think you can continue this trial until you resolve whatever`s going on with Juror No. 5.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were devastated, and his sisters looked like they wanted to cry. One sister actually left the courtroom. And then the defense team comes out. Jodi Arias finally, a smile on her face.

JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING OVER TRIAL: The court has denied the motion for mistrial. Juror No. 5 has been excused.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The Jodi Arias death penalty trial in full swing. We`re going to go inside the courtroom in just a moment to hear the defense battered woman expert.

But first, everybody was on pins and needles as Jodi Arias, Travis Alexander`s family, and the lawyers huddles in the judge`s chambers this morning. The defense had demanded a mistrial.

When the secret closed-door meeting ended, Travis`s sisters were sobbing for quite a while. Jodi was grinning. No mistrial. But it was apparently a big victory for the defense. The defense wanted, and the judge did kick off Juror No. 5 for apparently gossiping about the case.

Now she left the courthouse, this Juror No. 5, in tears. Let`s debate it with our expert sidebar panel.

It would appear the defense wants Juror No. 5 off. That means that she`s probably a pro-prosecution juror. OK? She gets kicked off. She leaves the courthouse sobbing. Travis Alexander`s family is sobbing. Jodi`s grinning. What do you make of it, Jordan Rose? A victory for the defense in getting rid of a pro-prosecution juror?

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: It doesn`t sound good. I mean, it doesn`t sound good at all. In fact, it seems that this woman has sat there for three months. The defense wants her off. And that doesn`t play well for the prosecution.

I don`t like it. I don`t think it`s good. It does, though, give us some insight into someone who`s been sitting there for three months and being very pro-prosecution. Maybe that can tell us that other jurors similarly...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Adam Swickle, criminal defense attorney.

ADAM SWICKLE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`ve got to tell you, I think it`s good for the defense, because they asked for something and they got it. But they didn`t get the whole ball of wax, which I was very surprised with. I understand there are certain dynamics to this particular case, but I go by this theory that you can`t un-ring the bell.

She apparently, Juror No. 5, said things that showed that she was prejudiced. And I think that that poisoned the entire jury. And I think that that`s a good issue on appeal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brad Cecce, quickly, for the prosecution, 15 seconds.

BRAD CECCE, ATTORNEY: No. You know what? I wish it didn`t happen, but I`m going to tell you something right now. It`s like tuning the cello on the Titanic. Ultimately, it ain`t going to make a difference.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know. Here`s the thing. If...

CECCE: Oh, no. I`m done.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... if, in fact, she was a pro-prosecution juror, and she was kicked off by -- as the defense wanted, but because some other women or other men, other individuals in the jury tattletaled on her. Could that indicate divisions. Could that indicate that there are factions within this jury pool of now 17 people who are pro-Jodi Arias? We shall see.

Now, let`s go back into the courtroom, where Alyce LaViolette, the domestic violence expert for the defense, is testifying about Travis Alexander allegedly living a double life. Let`s listen.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: ... and negative impact or something happening at the beginning of the trip?



STEPHENS: Overruled. You may answer. Yes or no?


WILLMOTT: All right. And what did she say? What`s your take-away from -- from the reading the journal.


STEPHENS: Approach, please.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that was -- they`re taking a quick side bar. That was the domestic violence expert Alyce LaViolette. And her whole thing, all day long, Beth Karas, has been that, oh, Jodi Arias was trying, constantly to please Travis Alexander. And she was basically negotiating with somebody who didn`t care for her as much as she cared for him.

And Selin Darkalstanian, you`ve been in court. Big whoop. Who hasn`t been in a relationship like that? That doesn`t mean you`re entitled to stab somebody 21 times and slit his throat. I don`t get what point they`re trying to make. They never seem to reach the altitude or hit the bar of abuse.

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Nobody during this entire trial has hit the bar for abuse. That`s the -- that`s the issue with what the defense has been trying to tell us or trying to set up. And definitely, Richard Samuels didn`t do it before this psychologist, and this psychologist is definitely not able to do it, yet. There`s still more testimony. Remember, she spent -- she spent more than 44 hours in jail talking to Jodi. So there`s still more to hear.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to take a very short break. On the other side -- oh, guess what? They`re back from their side bar. Let`s go back into court and hear more of this domestic violence expert.

WILLMOTT: That they had to have it.

MARTINEZ: Objection. Exit 244001.

STEPHENS: You may answer.

LAVIOLETTE: All right. That basically, there was an explosion that - - that Mr. Alexander exploded at her and that she felt quite devastated by it. But that later on, he apologized, which is not all that common, and how much it meant to her that he took responsibility for 90 percent of what happened that day.

WILLMOTT: All right. And in -- in this particular event, do we see any type of a cycle?

LAVIOLETTE: Well, you see that there`s a tension that happened at the beginning of the day when they were doing their hike and then an episode where he explodes and then an apology, which is kind of that loving respite period where he`s sorry that -- that things happened. And he`s actually taking responsibility for it.

WILLMOTT: And did that -- how does that make her feel, the fact that he apologized and takes responsibility for the argument?

LAVIOLETTE: Makes her feel really good. That it`s -- that it`s different, and he`s showing her that he`s taking responsibility and that that doesn`t often happen. And that that helps the rest of the time.

WILLMOTT: All right. And does that help to -- for her to reconcile that the argument she has with him, in other words to keep going, to stay on the trip and stay in the relationship?

LAVIOLETTE: Well, they definitely stay on the trip, and they definitely stay in the relationship so I would say you could -- you could go there.

WILLMOTT: All right. Based on your review of the journal entry, does it become apparent to you that she`s feeling worse about herself?

LAVIOLETTE: I haven`t finished reading this journal entry.

WILLMOTT: OK. Do you want to go ahead and review it?


It doesn`t sound like she`s feeling worse about herself. It sounds like she`s continuing to think in a positive way. And that she wants things to work out, and she`s with people that she cares about. She cares a lot about the Freemans, and they`re all together. And she`s feeling gratitude, and she wants to maintain that gratitude.

WILLMOTT: OK. And in maintaining that gratitude, is she trying to maintain those good feelings about the relationship?


WILLMOTT: In the beginning of the journal entry, when she talks about the incident, the fight they have, is she talking about how it impacted her the entire day?

LAVIOLETTE: She said that it...



WILLMOTT: All right. Did it impact her the entire day?


WILLMOTT: All right. Does she talk about how she feels on the inside; in other words, how she carries herself on the outside versus how she feels on the inside?

LAVIOLETTE: Not in this particular entry.

WILLMOTT: OK. All right. Then let`s move on to...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going pause very briefly. Meantime, here is some new video of the police interrogation tapes. Jodi, of course, is always trying to prevent herself as an innocent who was manipulated by Travis. But it seems she was a lot more forthcoming about her sexual history with cops. Check this out. More testimony on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that the main reason you guys broke up? The trust issue?

ARIAS: I think that...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not that the relationship was unhealthy because of the sexual activity?

ARIAS: I have had a couple relationships where I was intimate with a few people. Regardless of what the Bible says and, yes, I`m Christian. I just live my life by the Ten Commandments, and those are my rules. Da-da- da-da-da. You know? Thou shalt not this or that. But it doesn`t say, "Thou shall not fornicate."




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is it you want to know about the photos? Do you want to see the room? Do you want to see the bathroom? Do you want to see him or is it the photos before it happened that you want to see?

ARIAS: I think the photos of after everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I won`t show you those. I won`t. Not in good conscience, I can`t do that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi Arias wanting to see some crime scene photos. Meanwhile, we`re going back into court. Alyce LaViolette, the defense battered woman expert, is talking about all sorts of things that, oh, Travis was dating several women at once. But does any of it rise to the level of abuse?

WILLMOTT: How you said it was just the four of them, right?


WILLMOTT: And the -- do you learn anything about Mr. Alexander`s behavior from reading an interview with Desiree Freeman?


WILLMOTT: What did you learn?

LAVIOLETTE: She describes Mr. Alexander as clingy with Ms. Arias during this trip.

WILLMOTT: OK. And this trip is September 2007. Are you also aware that he is in a relationship with Lisa Andrews at this time?


WILLMOTT: OK. Let`s talk about September 23. Let me know if you need time to review it.


WILLMOTT: You`ve obviously reviewed this before, right?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, I have.

WILLMOTT: All right. So, with regard to September 23, this is a journal entry where -- with Ms. Arias writing in her journal, right?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, it is.

WILLMOTT: OK. And what is the context of the subject matter of this entry?

LAVIOLETTE: A lot of self-blame that she`s contemplating suicide, that she does not like what her life has become, that she`s pathetic, that kind of thing. She goes on about that. She goes on about being heartsick.

WILLMOTT: All right. And you talk about self-blame. Does she -- is she blaming herself for her situation?

LAVIOLETTE: She`s -- she`s looking at where her life was before and saying that she -- if she could go back a number of years, that she would but that she can`t.

And then she pumps herself back up and says, "But I know I can make myself better or worse during the next five years." And so she`s going back to the laws of attraction. And she talks about her lack of discipline. She calls herself a ridiculous lack of discipline.

WILLMOTT: So when she talks about a ridiculous lack of discipline, this -- the relationship she`s in, is this because it`s her own fault? Is that what she`s saying?

LAVIOLETTE: She`s basically saying that a lot of how she feels and the fact that she`s suicidal is her own fault.

WILLMOTT: OK. And then does she -- when you said she pumps herself back up, what is she trying to do? Is that fitting into laws of attraction?

LAVIOLETTE: That -- that she can move forward and that she has control about what happens with her life when she moves forward. That she can make the next five years magnificent or she can make them terrible or she can make them wonderful or she can make them ugly. So she`s talking about her own ability to create, you know, sort of what she puts out there.

WILLMOTT: All right. And that -- and is she taking into account at all about her -- about the ability of changing someone else to make that happen?

LAVIOLETTE: She doesn`t seem to be doing that. She seems to be believing that, if she only does it right, that her life will be better.

WILLMOTT: Is that significant to you in this -- when you`re looking at the progression of this relationship?

LAVIOLETTE: It`s significant in the ways I`ve discussed before, which is that -- that her belief in this law of attraction and the reality of her life are sort of, you know, bumping heads. And it keeps her, I think, kind of confused and unable to move. She`s kind of stuck, because she keeps believing that, whether or not Mr. Alexander changes, she can change things.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, not a very healthy relationship. Travis seeing another woman at the same time he`s going on a trip with Jodi. But where is the domestic violence? This is a domestic violence expert.

We`re going to take a very short break. And as we go out, we are going to play you some police interrogation video that we just obtained, showing Jodi is all over the map when it comes to her relationship with her dad.

More testimony after the break.


ARIAS: I miss my family. Shortly after high school and I go back to visit (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- my brother and sister and my dad is not doing well. He doesn`t think he has very long to live. He always says that, for like, a decade. He`s still here, thank goodness. I just have an awesome family.

LAVIOLETTE: He would talk about her boobs being too small, that her - - her friends had a smaller booty than she did.




ARIAS (via phone): I`m a giver.


ARIAS: But I don`t mind receiving while you`re doing the giving.

ALEXANDER: And I like how you play whatever role you need to play.

ARIAS: I like the role play. That`s fun. I know you love being handled, but like if I had to put one before the other, I like being handled.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that, of course, the infamous phone sex call where she talks about enjoying some of the degrading sex. Now, however, the defense has a domestic violence expert on the stand who is trying to establish this threshold for she killed him in self-defense because she was a battered women, but they`re not getting there. We`re hearing that he might have been a bad boyfriend; maybe two-timing her. We`re not getting to any domestic violence. Let`s see where it comes up. Let`s listen in.

LAVIOLETTE: She keeps believing that, whether or not Mr. Alexander changes, she can change things.



WILLMOTT: All right. Did you review an e-mail from Lisa Andrews to Travis Alexander?


WILLMOTT: And was that written September 2007?

LAVIOLETTE: September 23, 2007, yes, it was.

WILLMOTT: OK. I`m going to hand you what`s been marked as -- let me know if you need to review it.

LAVIOLETTE: All right.

WILLMOTT: All right. In this particular e-mail, this is from, obviously, another woman, Lisa Andrews, right?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, it is.

WILLMOTT: And based on the contents of the e-mail, do you -- is it your understanding that Ms. Andrews is currently involved in a relationship with Mr. Alexander in September of 2007?


WILLMOTT: And in September of 2007, is she writing him basically a list of complaints and feelings that she has about their relationship?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, she is.

WILLMOTT: Based on your impressions of this e-mail, what is it that you get out of this e-mail, from your own impressions?

LAVIOLETTE: That she believes that they have gotten too sexual too soon. It talks about making out.

WILLMOTT: And you`re talking about Lisa Andrews and Mr. Alexander?

LAVIOLETTE: Right. That -- that she feels that he has basically pushed on her, talked about sex a lot in a way that she doesn`t appreciate, that -- that he -- she wants him to stop grabbing her butt, particularly in public, and that he has ignored that and continues to do that. That he talks sexually to her in a way she feels uncomfortable with and wants him to stop, which he doesn`t. That she finds that unattractive and doesn`t appreciate it.

That her values don`t seem to be important to him. That when -- that he`s always needing compliments, in fact, that it`s very hard to give him compliments, because he wants them so often.

And I think one of the other things that is important is that he kind of makes a dig at her. She feels that he`s uncaring and that she wants to be a teacher. And she`s very proud of wanting to be a teacher.

And on the one hand, he tells her that being a teacher is -- that she`d be good at it. And on the other hand, that if that`s what she wants to do with her life, it sucks.

WILLMOTT: Is that one of those examples that you were telling us about earlier?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Day 40 of this trial, and this domestic violence expert for the defense is talking about another woman who Travis Alexander was apparently dating at the same time that he was sleeping with Jodi Arias, complaining about a little butt grabbing.

Again, where is the domestic violence? Butt grabbing, not domestic violence at the end of the day.

Meantime, Jodi very subdued today, but she can act crazy sometimes. Check this out.


ARIAS (singing): It might change my memory.

(voice-over): You should have at least done your make-up, Jodi, gosh.

(singing): Oh, holy night, the stars are brightly shining.




JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: You know, Travis is dating and I said "ok". And I assumed he was, you know, going on dates and they said "No, he`s really trying to date." And I said "ok". It`s like he`s desperate to get married. That night, you know, I confronted him about it and we had a really big fight. It also a bunch of things and drama (ph) mixed together


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, there`s Jodi Arias admitting on the interrogation tape that they had a big fight over his desire to date other women and his desire to eventually get married to someone else.

Let`s remember what this case is about, a man who was stabbed 29 times, whose throat slit ear-to-ear, who was also shot, who was also stabbed in the heart. And yet this domestic violence expert for the defense is on the stand talking about well, he wasn`t a really good boyfriend. He was dating two women at once. The second woman complained that he would grab her butt too much.

Maybe that raised things (ph) but it doesn`t rise to the level of domestic violence. It doesn`t explain what Jodi did and why.

Let`s listen in and see if she raises the bar.


JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: Is that one of those examples you were telling us about earlier -- the subtle, emotional or subtle, psychological abuse texting where somebody says something that`s kind of a compliment but then takes it right back and everything?

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DEFENSE WITNESS: Not only takes it back, but makes it something derogatory. And so, that`s in there. The other, you know, she alleges to the fact he hasn`t had sex yet and that she knows he wants it. That there`s a lot of sexual tension, that is part of his life on a regular basis and that he just needs to be patient because basically some day they will get to have sex, too.

WILLMOTT: Based on your reading of this e-mail does it become clear that Miss Andrews believes that he was a virgin?

F1: Yes.

WILLMOTT: Based on what you know from Miss Arias, was that true?

F1: No, it was not true.

WILLMOTT: In your review of other documents on the case, did you learn what the age difference was between Miss Andrews and Mr. Alexander?

F1: There was a ten, almost 11-year age difference between the two of them.

WILLMOTT: All right. And what about -- what about this e-mail then is important to you with regard to Jodi and Mr. Alexander`s relationship?

F1: One of the things that is talked about in this e-mail is that she didn`t know that Jodi was going on the trip. She talked -- there`s discussion about him being overly negative about the trip and that she had no idea he was going with Miss Arias, but that she was upset that she didn`t know that. But that she believed that he must be giving Miss Arias some encouragement because women don`t hang around if they don`t get encouragement. So she was distrusting what he was telling her about this.

And so that was part of the discussion that went on in this e-mail. And later she says that they talked.

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Objection -- hearsay.

WILLMOTT: Based on your impression of the e-mail, I guess, right? Is that what you were about to say?

F1: Right. That she felt better.

MARTINEZ: Objection -- speculation, hearsay.


WILLMOTT: Based on the impression of the e-mail, and the content of the e-mail, do you have an understanding as to whether or not Miss Andrews felt any better?

MARTINEZ: Objection -- (inaudible).

STEPHENS: Overruled. You may answer yes or no.

F1: Yes.

WILLMOTT: Ok. And what was that?

F1: That she felt better because they spoke with each other.


STEPHENS: Overruled.

WILLMOTT: I`m sorry. She felt better because why?

F1: She felt better because they had a conversation and after the conversation which I`m not sure what was said during the conversation, but because of the conversation, she felt better.

WILLMOTT: Ok. Do you see any patterns of behavior emerging when you -- between the way that Mr. Alexander treated Miss Arias versus the way that Mr. Alexander and Miss Andrews, their similarities in their relationship?

F1: Yes.

WILLMOTT: What do you see?

F1: I see an aggressive sexuality that`s there with two women who are vulnerable -- one who is a lot younger, one who is vulnerable just coming out of a relationship. I see a possessiveness where he, you know, in public is physically affectionate with and refuses to listen when someone is saying this is not -- I don`t want this to happen. That he has in both these cases put these women down but then sort of backs off of it.

WILLMOTT: And can we talk about, at some point, are you aware of whether or not Mr. Alexander ever referred to Miss Arias as a skank?

F1: Yes.

WILLMOTT: But tries to turn it around?

F1: Yes.

WILLMOTT: And tries to say that it`s a joke?

F1: Yes.

WILLMOT: And you know that based on the e-mails that go back and forth --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. At this point of the defense case, this domestic violence expert seems to be proving that he wasn`t the best boyfriend, seeing two women at once, pretending to be a virgin when he was not. But again, does it rise to the level of abuse? Does it explain why Jodi Arias is claiming she stabbed him 29 times including nine times in the back in self-defense?

Let`s debate it with our expert panel. Jordan Rose for the prosecution.

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: This is a normal relationship, Jane. Two people who dated for just a little over a year. They love each other at the beginning and then. In all relationships that don`t end in marriage or permanent cohabitation or whatever, one of the parties generally gets kind of disaffected. They don`t like the other person. So, it`s normal.

Travis decided he didn`t like her as much as she liked him and she`s crazy. So, instead of when a guy dumps you normally, you might be upset, you might go as far as to go to his house and see what else he`s doing, but you don`t go drive across the country and kill him. I mean she`s nuts. She`s obviously nuts. This is a normal relationship --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Dr. Judy Ho, we need a psychologist on this one. Yes, maybe not the greatest thing but this is the kind of things that a lot of guys do -- date two women at once. Women also can date two people at the same time. It`s been known to happen.

But does this rise to the level of domestic violence, Dr. Judy?

DR. JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Hi, Jane, no. I don`t believe it does. And you know, all of the things that they are talking about right now come from Jodi`s perspective. And I don`t think that she actually has the classical signs of borderline personality disorder. Always believing she`s the victim, blaming other people; extreme emotional and behavioral mood swings; always thinking that somebody else is at fault and putting all the responsibility on another person.

You know she also sees that Travis is the person who is doing all of these things to her and not taking any responsibility. And again, all of these things that they`re analyzing right now is from her perspective. I don`t think it`s valid.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Swickle, this is not exactly the burning bed. So he sees two women at once, big whoop.

ADAM SWICKLE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s more than that. I think what you are hearing the expert do -- and this is a very important distinction for everybody to understand. She is not testifying that Jodi Arias was a victim of domestic violence physical abuse. What she`s doing is testifying that the behavior between them, their relationship is consistent with the relationship where domestic violence and psychological abuse is engaged in.

And I think that what you have to do is you have to take step-by-step, piece-by-piece. And that`s exactly what this expert is doing. And I think in the end, it`s going to be very consistent with --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Fred Tecce for the prosecution.

FRED TECCE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: No, no. No, no. She`s a domestic violence expert and there`s 0.0 domestic violence.


TECCE: It is true. There`s absolutely nothing other than Jodi`s naked testimony. There`s no evidence to support any --

SWICKLE: You don`t commit domestic violence in front of third parties --


TECCE: No, no, no. You know what; you can yell and say it`s not true, but that`s ridiculous. The facts and the evidence are very straight forward. The bottom line is to say this --



TECCE: -- you know what; this isn`t domestic violence, sorry.

SWICKLE: Domestic violence is very, very much a secret and behind closed doors. I`ve tried --

TECCE: This woman said --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Fred finish his sentence.

TECCE: -- let me -- this woman said that infidelity equals abuse. You know what it really means? It equals motive. I`m sorry, if being a bad boy and doing the thing that that guy did, I would have been dead in 1989. This is much ado nothing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll be back with more testimony and debate. Stay right there.


TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MURDER VICTIM: I`d like you to ride my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) like a horse.


ALEXANDER: I need to get my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) fix too.


ALEXANDER: I`m going to get some great shots of (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in you. I want to give you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) too. I mean it`s going to be like legitimate porn.




ARIAS: When you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and throws candy and walks away without a word, it kind of feels like I was a prostitute.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi testifying that she felt like a prostitute. Is the defense trying to turn this case on its head and essentially put the victim, Travis Alexander on trial? Well, so far they`ve convicted him of being a so-so boyfriend.

But where is the domestic violence? That`s the only way that Jodi Arias can prove she killed him in self-defense. She admits she killed him. She`s just saying it was self-defense.

So let`s listen to her domestic violence expert try to gain altitude and hit some points that have to do with domestic violence.


WILLMOTT: -- similar that you see with regard to his teacher comment?

F1: Yes, it is something similar.

WILLMOTT: Ok. And is that because he`s putting them down but then saying oh no, you misunderstood me type of thing?

MARTINEZ: Objection -- leading the witness.

STEPHENS: Overruled.

F1: He`s not -- he`s not even pulling them back.


F1: He`s pulled back the skank comment with Miss Arias but he hasn`t pulled back the comment about Miss Andrews choosing to teach and saying that would suck, basically.

WILLMOTT: Ok. Do you see -- what about the compliment that Miss Andrews says Mr. Alexander, something about needing compliments all the time? Do you see similarities between that and the way that things happened with Miss Arias?

F1: Well, Miss Arias says in her journal or there`s a discussion in the journal about as long as things are positive and she keeps things positive with Mr. Alexander that things are good and there`s a basic -- my interpretation basic neediness from somebody asking for compliments all the time and then the discussion with Miss Andrews is that he doesn`t give them back. That he doesn`t compliment her, but he wants them all the time and it becomes very difficult for her to give him compliments.

WILLMOTT: And incidentally in your review of the case, are there -- are you aware of other women who have said the same thing that Mr. Alexander is constantly in need of compliments from these other women?

F1: Yes.

WILLMOTT: What about -- does this -- do you see any type of deception going on at this point?

F1: Yes. I see deception going on.

WILLMOTT: What kind of deception?

F1: There`s a belief by Miss Andrews that he is faithful to her and I`m not sure about what Miss Arias believes at this point, but I believe she knows something about the relationship but I`m not certain.

WILLMOTT: All right. Let me ask you about Miss Arias though. Did she --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, to me, this seems like reruns because we have already heard numerous times that Travis referred to Jodi as a skank. I want to go to Beth Karas, correspondent, "In Session" there in Phoenix, Arizona. You have been in court. Where is this going? A lot of people feel this is a floundering defense. It`s not rising to the level of domestic violence. It`s simply proving that maybe he was a bad boyfriend.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": True. There are some things that she says when asked, why is this important or what is your assessment of this that to me sounds as though you don`t have to have expertise in domestic violence to answer, just common sense. Well, Jodi is feeling vulnerable or she`s feeling controlled by him or she likes him more than he likes her.

She`s not really using her expertise in domestic violence because it doesn`t seem to be really abusive. However, I do think that tomorrow she will get to the killing, the alleged breaking of the finger on January 22nd and she`ll draw on her expertise more because right now, it`s not really all that much abuse, if any. But she`ll get to that in the months or weeks just before the killing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we will be all over it tomorrow. But don`t go anywhere because she is heading somewhere very slightly and slowly up a hill trying to reach that plateau of domestic violence. Will she hit it?

We`re going to take a very short break. We`ll be back with more testimony in a moment.


ARIAS: This is a really trivial question and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am. But before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?




F1: He has reason to believe that he mistreats Miss Arias, that he is a flirt, that he has a history of not being particularly good with women.

WILLMOTT: Mr. Alexander really wasn`t all that interested in Jodi.

F1: Yes. He talked about a woman by the name of Brandy that he treated her badly, but that he didn`t feel badly about it. That he`s the biggest flirt this side of the Mississippi.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. Travis Alexander was a big flirt. Oh, my gosh. Women liked him. And Jodi liked him more than he liked her. Oh, what a shocker. Doesn`t that sound like every other relationship you`ve ever heard of?

Let`s debate it with our panel. At a certain point, and I`ll start with Fred Tecce on this for the prosecution. If you are subjecting the jurors to this floundering testimony, does it count as a point against you?

TECCE: I think it does, Jane. I think it counts against you in a lot of ways. I mean you saw the jury`s question of that PTSD expert -- I forget his name, he looked the skipper from "Gilligan`s Island".


TECCE: Yes, that`s it. The jury thought the guy was a complete buffoon, and I think this woman`s testimony is going over just the same. The fact of the matter is if she was a domestic violence expert even though it is a hidden crime as the defense lawyer was saying, but there are other things that show it. I mean there was no police reports, no calls, no things of neighbors, no bruises, no nothing.

So I mean I think at the end of the day, she`s really been -- and she`s going on too long.


Dr. Judy Ho, psychologist, doesn`t this sound like some kind of relationship show? I mean isn`t this like every call-in? Oh, my boyfriend`s cheating on me.

HO: Exactly, Jane. I mean this relationship is really not that different from probably every relationship we`ve heard of, maybe ones we`ve been in ourselves, you know. Somebody likes somebody a little bit better. Maybe both people are not the best boyfriend/girlfriend. So what? Where`s the domestic violence evidence? I haven`t seen that yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I think they should have stuck to the sex talk, which is pretty darn raunchy that makes the case better than anything else. But then again, she`s participating.

More on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This testimony is starting to remind me of a filibuster. Adam Swickle, you speak for the defense, they`re confusing I think the defense with having a long testimony with good testimony.

SWICKLE: Well, I think in this particular case what they`re doing is exactly the way that you build a house. You`ve got to start with a foundation. And what she`s establishing at this point in time through e- mails and other types of evidence is what the foundational relationship was between them. And I believe she`s going to opine later on as the testimony goes on that it`s consistent with domestic violence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you, they could have built a house in less time, all right?

Nancy Grace is up next.