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CNN LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL
Will Hillary Clinton Run?; New Michael Jackson Death Trial
Aired April 2, 2013 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NARRATOR: Tonight, you know the news. Now it's time to get to THE POINT with CNN's Margaret Hoover.
MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I spent four years in Washington in government service, including two years in the White House. I wrote a national best-selling book about how to save the Republican Party.
NARRATOR: Donny Deutsch.
DONNY DEUTSCH, CHAIRMAN, DEUTSCH INC.: I'm chairman of Deutsch Incorporated, which is one of the world's top ad agencies. I'm the author of two books, "Often Wrong, Never in Doubt" and "The Big Idea."
NARRATOR: Rick Reilly.
RICK REILLY, AUTHOR: I'm an ESPN columnist, essayist and author. I have been covering the world of sports for more than 30 years.
NARRATOR: Jason Taylor.
JASON TAYLOR, FORMER PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL PLAYER: I played professional football for 15 years. I also majored in political science and criminal justice.
NARRATOR: And Kayleigh McEnany.
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, FOUNDER, REAL REAGAN CONSERVATIVE: I'm founder and editor in chief of Real Reagan Conservative, a network of conservative writers dedicated to promoting conservative values and principles. I wanted to empower Americans to have a voice.
NARRATOR: Let's get to THE POINT.
HOOVER: Hey, everyone. Welcome to THE POINT.
We will be here all week at this time. You already know today's headlines, so now we are going to get to the point of each story.
And we're going to start with two people that everyone is talking about, Hillary Clinton and Jay Leno, first Hillary. She gave a speech tonight at the Kennedy Center for one of her major charities, Vital Voices. She's giving her first paid speech out of office at the end of April, certainly for six figures. What is she doing? Is she -- is this her precursor to running for office? Is Hillary running for president, Donny?
DEUTSCH: Absolutely, as well she should be.
And I think the great advantage she has and the point to make is since she stepped down as secretary of state, she now is in the winner's circle. There's nothing bad that can happen to her. She kind of came -- she brilliantly went out on top. There will never be anybody more prepared, secretary of state, eight years in the White House, than this woman.
She will be our next president.
REILLY: Nothing bad? She just fainted.
DEUTSCH: No, no. But my point is she's not secretary of state. She can't screw up at this point. She went out. All she can do now is give speeches and do wonderful things. Her brand right now is where it is.
HOOVER: But if she runs for president, decidedly, her approval ratings, which Kayleigh is saying, they're 68 percent right now.
MCENANY: Yes, yes, 67 percent. She's the most popular presidential candidate since George Washington.
I mean, this woman seems to have it in the bag, but, Donny, I want to challenge you and say this is the curse of heightened expectations. She can only go down from here. Everyone's talking about President Hillary Clinton as if it's a foregone conclusion, but it is not and if she falters just a bit, she goes down tremendously. I think it's far from a foregone conclusion.
REILLY: By the way, in 2016, she will be 69 years old. Romney was 65 and lost. McCain was 70 and lost.
Personally, I think she should do what Bill Clinton does, work from the outside. I don't think she should run for president. I think that, yes, she's the front-runner, but you know how this will all erode. Why not try to change things from the outside, the way Clinton has worked with George W. Bush? How about she works with Sarah Palin?
MCENANY: Have Clintons ever worked from the outside?
REILLY: How is the Clinton Initiative working? He's made a huge difference in the world.
TAYLOR: I really do agree with Donny.
She is at the height of her popularity right now. Approval ratings were very high for her. She took a little break, stepping down from secretary of state, take a little break. She will be back. I'm not sure -- I'm not ready to crown her as the next president yet, but I think a very, very good candidate.
All health issues aside, I think it's very interesting how Chelsea and Bill have gone out there and really talked about how healthy she is and how good she is doing to put these kind of health scares behind here, because the age is against her. You hate to say it, but the age is kind of against her. But good for her. Take a little break, short-term retirement and get right back in to it.
HOOVER: One of the things we know is true. Certainly, everybody, she deserves some time out of the spotlight; she deserves some time out to just be in the public -- private life.
But there are a slew of women. I mean, the 18 million cracks in the ceiling, all the second wave feminists who feel like her nomination to be president is going to be the crowning moment of their lives and that there is just this -- you get a sense there's this tidal wave going in that direction and they're going with or without her.
DEUTSCH: I think there is an interesting point.
Women used to a lot of them not feel good about Hillary Clinton. We have seen her morph her brand because when she first came on the scene, we did not -- a lot of women almost resented the power. We have kind of watched this evolution. And women have changed dramatically.
She was incredibly polarizing and her appeal to both men and women now is phenomenal. I have never seen a more dramatic brand evolution.
MCENANY: But, guys, how can we talk about Hillary Clinton without mentioning Benghazi? Will that sink her? I think it will.
There's a lot of questions to be asked, a lot of things unanswered. Americans died and she was overseeing at the time. That's her -- it's all on her. The buck stops with her and the president.
REILLY: No, that's misplaced.
If I'm running the Democratic Party, I get someone who can speak Spanish or is learning it right now, because that's going to be crucial in 2016. We saw it in the last election and the Republicans have someone that will be great with the Hispanic in Rubio.
MCENANY: Marco Rubio, that's -- yes, absolutely. DEUTSCH: I think she's 30 -- she is ahead of everybody. Jeb Bush. She's up by 50 points in Iowa. She's up by 30, 39 points in Iowa, 50 in New Hampshire. I think her brand is impenetrable.
HOOVER: But it's three years away.
DEUTSCH: But my point is she is not in office.
HOOVER: Here we go. We have got it on the screen, Donny. We have got it on the screen, Clinton 52, Rubio 41 and that's for Florida voters. Of course, again, Clinton 47, Christie 42, that's Pennsylvania voters.
Of course, this is four years out. We are jumping the horse race just a little bit early, folks. But the truth is you're only impenetrable until you actually get in the race.
DEUTSCH: I would give you...
REILLY: I mean the whole presidency.
DEUTSCH: Whole presidency? I will give you 2-1 in a heartbeat.
MCENANY: Donny, you are just jaded, jaded, jaded, jaded.
DEUTSCH: You -- she is so cemented and I just -- it's there. And, by the way, Bill Clinton will be her running mate.
DEUTSCH: Think about that. No, I don't mean vice president.
MCENANY: No, no, all sorts of issues in that department.
DEUTSCH: He is so revered. He's the most popular president, most popular politician by so far right now. The Clintons are right now America's royalty.
MCENANY: Donny is in love over here.
DEUTSCH: I don't mean running.
REILLY: Speaking of people who maybe are hanging on too long, maybe they should retire, Hillary, Jay Leno. If you saw this thing last night on Jimmy Fallon's show.
REILLY: It was beautiful.
Let's just run it and then we will talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON" (singing): Tonight, tonight, who's going to host tonight? Is it going to be Jimmy or Jay?
Tonight, tonight, where will they tape tonight? In New York? Will it stay in L.A.?
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO" (singing): Tonight, tonight, my ratings were all right; 20 years, and I'm still in first place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REILLY: How great is that?
TAYLOR: Well done.
REILLY: So, the question is, it's clearly great P.R., but is it better for Leno or for Fallon? There's the rumor that in 2014 Fallon would take over, going to keep it in New York. But now, you know, Leno sort of was fighting against it. I think this was beautiful P.R. But who does it help?
DEUTSCH: It helps them both.
DEUTSCH: Particularly Leno, because what it says about this guy, and talk about a guy who keeps recreating himself and who keeps ending up on top, he's still top in the ratings.
It's saying I'm not threatened by this and I can have fun with it. And it's also brilliant for Fallon, because it doesn't make like he's pushing anybody out. This is a brilliant, brilliant move to turn upside-down a potentially P.R. disaster and have fun with it. Kudos, kudos, kudos, kudos.
MCENANY: You're so right.
And it helps NBC, but now it's time for NBC to help themselves and remain loyal to Leno. Leno had a seven-week high in viewership. He's beating Letterman. He's beating Kimmel. He will succeed. He will come out on top in this.
And I think it's time for them to show a little loyalty. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Keep him in there. And I have a special place in my heart for Leno, because he takes jabs at the right as well as the left. So I have a special place in my heart for him. And I think it's time NBC showed some loyalty.
REILLY: You know that Jimmy Fallon thing where he does the thank you notes thing? He ought to do one of these, thank you, Jay Leno, for finally being friendly about it, because he wasn't friendly with Letterman. He wasn't friendly with Conan.
And I would be careful if I was Jimmy Fallon. This is a nice touch on their part. But Jay Leno usually wins these. I know Jay. He's a friend of mine. He is such a workaholic. Do you know he appears at the Comedy Store in Hermosa Beach, where I live, every Sunday night, every Sunday night? So he works five days a week and does that. He doesn't want to quit.
MCENANY: That's awesome.
DEUTSCH: I want to ask you a loyalty question.
What do you do -- Taylor, I want to come back to you -- where you have Kimmel, who is really -- he's an up and comer. He's starting to move the younger demo. If they make the move, it's talking about the future. There's nobody -- by the way, you have seen it in full. I'm curious, Jason. Sometimes there's a starting star quarterback that they don't resign, because -- Peyton Manning.
This is the example of Peyton Manning.
REILLY: Or defensive end.
TAYLOR: Happened to me, too, yes.
DEUTSCH: Imagine that.
TAYLOR: It happens to all of us.
DEUTSCH: It's a question of strategically, it all nice and good and I love Leno, also. But sometimes you kind of make the move on the star quarterback because you're betting on the next 10 years.
TAYLOR: You are. We saw this with Peyton Manning in Indianapolis when Andrew Luck came in.
But I think, first of all, it's a brilliant move by NBC and Leno and Fallon to do this together. This thing was getting nasty. Jay Leno was taking shots at NBC execs. It's good for the time being. This is a Band-Aid and this is a chance for them to really kind of smooth it over a little bit and make the transition a little better, because let's face it, in a year's time, a year-and-a-half time, they will make a change. Jay Leno will have to -- he's going to move out. Fallon will take over. It's just the way it is. You have to -- I love the self- deprecation in the video with Jay Leno and laughing at themselves.
And it's hard not to take it personally. It really is, because I was very upset about it. And there comes a point where you have to become a backup and I know there's no real backup in this late-night television, but it's hard to swallow. But you made enough money. You go out on top and you find something else to do.
REILLY: A., those voices enhanced on both of them. B., Leno started his monologue Monday night saying, hey, I have come to a great agreement with NBC. We are going to get along for years, Jimmy Fallon, this and that. Oh, by the way, April Fool's. It's never going to happen. This isn't a done deal.
MCENANY: Donny, to your point, I think you are spot on that millennials are important and this younger demo is important, but don't bet against the old guy.
I'm a huge Indianapolis Colts fan. I love, love, love Peyton Manning and that should be an instructive story. Don't bet against the old guy. Give him a shot.
REILLY: Are you saying they should have kept Manning?
MCENANY: Yes. I think they should have.
REILLY: ... 14 straight years.
MCENANY: It's a tough predicament. But I have a Peyton Manning fathead in my apartment. He has my heart.
MCENANY: Yes, still.
HOOVER: Are you a Broncos fan now?
MCENANY: No, I'm still a Colts fan.
DEUTSCH: Final P.R. lesson 101. Alec Baldwin did this when he got in trouble.
When in trouble, make fun of yourself and come out on top.
TAYLOR: Laugh at yourself.
DEUTSCH: The opposite of laughing, guys. It's been a few years since the Fort Hood tragedy. There's been a lot of discussion. The Pentagon is not giving the victims Purple Hearts, which I am stunned and I think it brings up the question we're going to talk about next, is, what's a hero?
And when we come back, we will get into that.
DEUTSCH: Welcome back to THE POINT.
I'm going to need a little help getting my arms around this one, because I can't see two sides of the story. Horrible tragedy a number of years ago, Fort Hood. So many people killed, people who gave their lives, military people, civilians.
The Pentagon is saying they do not want to award Purple Hearts to the victims because they're saying somehow it is going to get in the way of investigation of Hasan.
Margaret, to me, anybody who serves their country is a hero just by serving. Anybody who loses their life, whether it's at home or there, is a hero. How can you not give these people Purple Hearts?
HOOVER: Well, so the controversy here -- and we will get to the point. The controversy is about whether you award these people Purple Hearts because they died on the battlefield.
Was the incident an incident of a madman who just shot up his peers or was it the man who was a perpetrator of radical Islamist violence and therefore these -- his former comrades actually lost their lives in a battle on the war on terror?
What we know about Major Hasan was that he in touch with Anwar al-Awlaki. He was in touch with al Qaeda. This was an incident of Islamist terrorism.
DEUTSCH: Of course it was.
HOOVER: And the Pentagon has refused to acknowledge that this was an incident in the sort of larger global war on terror.
REILLY: Margaret, there's a reason, because if they label this guy a terrorist giving these very deserving people Purple Hearts and the families of the people who died Purple Hearts, then that makes the defense say, oh, you have labeled him a terrorist. He's got no chance for a fair trial.
Let's throw this out. Please, just wait until the trial over. It starts May 29.
HOOVER: And what you're talking about is a military tribunal, just so our viewers know what we're talking understand. There's a military tribunal that's going to be held.
But the truth is what you do in the field of battle is that if someone is a perpetrator of Islamist violence, they don't get a trial. They're suddenly no longer entitled to a fair trial.
REILLY: But this happened on U.S. soil, so it's very complicated. They will get their Purple Hearts.
MCENANY: There's a counterpoint to what you're saying.
After 9/11, the people who died in the Pentagon got a Purple Heart and that did the not have any affect on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's trial. So I think that's not necessarily a great argument for this, for denying our heroes what they deserve, these Purple Hearts.
And, you know, to another point, Donny, your liberal president is the one who started this all by refusing...
DEUTSCH: I didn't know I was responsible for putting him in office.
HOOVER: Yes, you are.
MCENANY: He didn't want a terrorist attack on his watch, so he called it workplace violence. Everyone knows this was terrorism, everyone.
REILLY: He called it because he's trying to get this guy convicted.
Want do you want, Kayleigh? Do you want him convicted or do you want these people to get their Purple Hearts two years early?
MCENANY: But is KSM not going to get convicted because we gave Purple Hearts to those in the Pentagon?
REILLY: No, I'm talking about this trial.
TAYLOR: Why can't we just wait and do the Purple Hearts after the trial? These people deserve...
DEUTSCH: Do we know that is going to happen?
TAYLOR: We don't know that is going to happen. I'm just throwing it out there.
Now, they absolutely deserve a Purple Heart.
REILLY: Of course.
TAYLOR: And it's a shame that we have to go through all this jargon to get -- we can't charge him as a terrorist because then he can't get a fair trial.
He doesn't deserve a fair trial at this point. And I understand that. But...
REILLY: Well, he's an American. He gets a fair trial.
TAYLOR: But if he's labeled as a terrorist, which we all know this was a terrorist act, then the rules change.
REILLY: So, you're just throwing out the Constitution?
TAYLOR: No. I'm not throwing out the Constitution. Hold on, Rick.
HOOVER: It's not the Constitution. It's a military tribunal. It's not a normal court of law.
REILLY: He still -- he lives in this country.
TAYLOR: I understand. But things happen in this country, too, that could be terrorism, which it was.
My whole point is, can we wait until the trial is over to give these people what they truly, truly deserve?
MCENANY: But then aren't we putting the interests of Nidal Hasan above the interests of our brave men and women?
HOOVER: Thank you.
REILLY: No. We're putting the interest of convicting Hasan...
DEUTSCH: I want to also get to the initial question about a hero.
There's another network where one of the commentators, rightfully so, got into a lot of trouble saying we throw the word too -- anybody who puts on a uniform is a hero.
DEUTSCH: I was with a guy in a car and he was telling me about his sons. One of them was a special-ops guy. It's like we sit here and we talk in the abstract about these people.
They are putting on uniforms, dedicating their life and as far as I'm concerned, every single one is a hero.
REILLY: You going to give a Purple Heart to a guy that operates drones?
DEUTSCH: You know what?
As far as I'm concerned, you sign up for the military, as opposed to being TV people like us or bankers, you get a medal as far as I'm concerned, period.
REILLY: Is he a hero for operating a drone?
TAYLOR: For joining the military, yes.
DEUTSCH: He's a hero because he's giving his life for his country.
MCENANY: Donny, will you work with me and bring the two sides together and let's have a protest in front of the White House to get this done? Can we do that?
DEUTSCH: We will go this weekend. OK?
DEUTSCH: Hands across the ocean.
REILLY: I have got to see this.
TAYLOR: I will say we absolutely throw the word hero around too easily, particularly with sports figures or celebrities.
And people that -- if you sign up on the dotted line to defend this country, whether it be behind closed doors on America, on home soil, or they're overseas in Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere around the world, they are 100 percent heroes to me and need to be recognized accordingly.
Now, another trial that's about to begin is the Michael Jackson trial. The wrongful death suit started today. Jury selections will begin today. Michael Jackson's mother is suing AEG, the company responsible for Michael's final tour, This Is It, for $40 million. She claims that that's what he would have earned had he not died back in, what, 2009.
DEUTSCH: Forty billion.
TAYLOR: Forty -- did I say $40 million? Forty billion.
TAYLOR: With a B, $40 billion. REILLY: She's saying it's AEG's fault, the concert company, that he died?
TAYLOR: Yes, even though Conrad Murray already is serving time in prison for involuntarily manslaughter.
My question is, who is to blame for Michael Jackson's death?
HOOVER: Michael Jackson is to blame for Michael Jackson's death.
REILLY: What is interesting about this, he was using Conrad Murray before he ever signed for this deal.
The reason he picked Conrad Murray is because he was easy with the prescriptions, doled it out. That's why he picked him out. It's not AEG's fault. It's Michael's fault.
HOOVER: Yes. He was a victim of his own addiction and what we clearly see is many people who miss Michael Jackson who sort of hold him up and really want him to be a victim of somebody else, but he was a victim of his own addictions and his own choices.
DEUTSCH: I will ask you guys a question. I want to say if this goes to trial, what the defense is going to do, what the prosecutors are going to do, they will bring up all of the old molestation accusations because that's when according to Michael's people he started using drugs.
Do you think that's fair game?
MCENANY: No. And the mother's discrediting his legacy by doing that.
I personally have a soft spot in my heart for Michael Jackson. Like Margaret acknowledged, who doesn't? By doing this and dredging up this history, it's just going to...
REILLY: I will say it's worse than that. I will say it sickens me. It sickens me.
REILLY: They have sucked the money out of this kid from cradle to past the grave.
MCENANY: Thank you.
REILLY: He is in the grave now. They're -- his worth is about $600 million after debt. That's not enough? Now we are going to drag all of this -- can you imagine if the guy -- if there is an afterlife, he's looking down on this? Thanks a lot, mom.
MCENANY: Yes. So true.
DEUTSCH: Am I the only one? You know, his music is great, but I think sometimes we too easily sweep under, oh, those -- I mean, according to so many people, he wasn't obviously convicted of it, but there seemed to be so many inappropriate things with children and just because we're -- good singer...
DEUTSCH: I just -- that's the most heinous of all things. And to me, it tarnishes everything. I'm sorry. It just does.
DEUTSCH: ... after he wasn't convicted.
HOOVER: There are so many people who are close with him who swear that he -- you know, everything was appropriate. They just had a meaningful relationship with him.
HOOVER: Look, everybody's legacy is fair game for exploration, but I do think that it should be viewed separately from this court trial, which is apparently in jury selection today.
DEUTSCH: You want to open up his life. It's not going to...
REILLY: Give the guy some peace.
MCENANY: Margaret is spot on with this. This guy was denied a childhood and you could see that evidently in his adulthood. And I'm not convinced he did it. And let's give him the benefit of the doubt.
TAYLOR: But to get back to the point, I think we all agree that the person to blame for Michael Jackson's death number one is Michael Jackson.
TAYLOR: I know Conrad Murray's doing time for it and we're trying to blame AEG now and all these other factors, but at the end of the day Michael Jackson was addicted to a plethora of drugs that he had no business taking and taking in the quantities he was taking. And I think he was his number one worst enemy.
(CROSSTALK) TAYLOR: His mother's arguing that AEG hired Conrad Murray, but Michael Jackson had to get to pick a doctor for AEG to -- it's a mess. Michael Jackson...
REILLY: I think that she should be on trial because the only way he got -- thought anybody loved him was when he was performing, and that was thanks to her and her...
HOOVER: Guess who else is going on trial? A bunch of teachers in Atlanta. Have you heard about this?
We are going to talk about this when we get back. But are we a nation of cheaters? We have got a whole bunch of Atlanta teachers who are going to have to answer that question.
HOOVER: All right. Here we are. We're back again. And this one is an extraordinary story.
We have 35 educators in Atlanta who are being convicted of cheating on tests -- or who are being tried for cheating on tests. One of them was actually in 2009 named the national superintendent of the year. She received this national award for her ability to educate children. And it turns out it was all a scam. They were all cheating on their tests, changing the scores to demonstrate that they were actually very effective teachers.
REILLY: These are standardized tests that the government, the state makes you teach kids and have kids take, or else you don't get funding. You have to go up every year or you don't get funding. So even if your school hit 96 percent last year, you have got to show 97 percent or the federal government takes over your school.
HOOVER: And that's because of the one of the initiatives that President Bush put in place called No Child Left Behind. And so many people especially on the left are saying this would never have happened if No Child Left Behind never happened because you wouldn't be forced to test and therefore you wouldn't have teachers cheating on the test.
DEUTSCH: The big issue is there needs to be accountability with teachers.
In order to have accountability with teachers, there needs to be some sort of, not just qualitative, quantitative accountability. This is a horrible, I think, very narrow example of what has happened. It would be a shame to take out accountability, to take out qualifiable accountability just because there are a bunch of disgusting idiots. And that's what these people are.
I really, really -- my mom's a teacher -- that 99 percent of teachers, like 99 percent of all people, are really honest and I think this is the best system in a very imperfect world.
MCENANY: Am I hearing Donny advocate a right-wing policy over there?
He doesn't know it. He doesn't know it.
DEUTSCH: I have been morphing in this show.
MCENANY: You have been. I like it.
HOOVER: Pulling to the right.
MCENANY: We have to get to the lowest common denominator here, which is the teachers union that protects some of these guys who get to these high ranks among teachers that don't deserve it.
We're not rewarding the teachers who are good at their job, because the union is protecting the teachers who are doing a horrific job.
That to me is the root of the problem. And, Jason, what do you think?
TAYLOR: I think there's so many teachers involved, 178 teachers in total that were involved in the scandal.
If you look at it, Beverly Hall, the former superintendent, received $500,000 in bonuses based on what those schools were doing. Now, not only did that happen. She fired 90 percent of the principals in that school -- in her school district. So it's -- they had...
REILLY: Pizza parties.
TAYLOR: Yes. They had pizza parties to correct the scores.
TAYLOR: What I'm saying is with that many bad teachers or principals or a bad superintendent, I think that's -- that's too many bad apples. I think there's a bad system in total that...
DEUTSCH: This was brought up...
TAYLOR: ... it then breeds or it grows these bad apples, because...
TAYLOR: Hold on. I would like to think that teachers, as you said, are better spirited than that, have better intentions than that.
But when the pressure to perform is so high that if you don't -- if your scores don't increase, you lose your job...
DEUTSCH: I'm sorry. If you made me chancellor of teachers in the U.S., and said, Donny, fix it, and I'm dumb in a lot of things, but I was a pretty good business guy, I would say we have to give scores.
It's imperfect, so I don't want what the other answer is.
DEUTSCH: I actually want to elevate it to a higher...
REILLY: ... and just sausage grinder, this is what we decide is progress and what isn't?
DEUTSCH: It's -- the reality is there's no system that's perfect. And somehow you have to grade these teachers. And if you are going to grade them and reward them accordingly, they're going to be people, like in all businesses, cheat and steal, which leads me to a bigger question.
Do you think everybody in some form or another cheats?
DEUTSCH: Has everybody at this table cheated on something?
MCENANY: I haven't.
HOOVER: Absolutely not.
REILLY: Ever wore a hair weave?
MCENANY: Hair weave? No.
REILLY: Did you get laser surgery?
MCENANY: No, no, no. I had clip-in extensions. So, yes, I cheated.
DEUTSCH: This is a very interesting thing. The men...
REILLY: Did you get your teeth whitened?
MCENANY: Yes, yesterday.
DEUTSCH: Can I finish?
DEUTSCH: Let me finish.
DEUTSCH: The three men at the table all raised their hands and said we cheat. We have...
MCENANY Men are cheaters. That's the takeaway.
DEUTSCH: Interesting that women -- and I just wonder if it's a different code because men are programmed so much earlier to go at any cost. Win at any cost. Where women, studies have shown, are more collaborative. This -- I'm getting...
HOOVER: Representative sample size.
HOOVER: Leaving a margin here.
TAYLOR: I'm not proud of it, but I think everybody, everyone in life has cheated at some point.
DEUTSCH: These two haven't.
HOOVER: I haven't.
TAYLOR: You've never cheated in your life?
HOOVER: Like on a test? No.
REILLY: Fake eyelashes?
DEUTSCH: What's the definition of cheating?
HOOVER: Cheating? Like breaking the law, cheating on a test. Like what is cheating? Are you going to so broadly define cheating? Putting on makeup to go on television? I think you are a cheater!
REILLY: I didn't say I'm a cheater. But he said have you ever cheated at anything? Hey, I cover sports. Lance Armstrong won seven Tour de Frances.
HOOVER: You're just jaded by Lance Armstrong.
REILLY: Harvard just had a huge cheating scandal. We are a nation of cheaters.
TAYLOR: It's in everyone, like, I say, whether it's sports, whether it's -- this story we're talking about here. I mean, insider trading in business. There's a lot of segments in our society that there's cheating involved.
I'm -- I'm happy to be between two angels. Never cheated in life.
MCENANY So speaking of -- speaking of cheating, you know, a lot of parents, you know, and their kids upset. They're crying. They can an iPad. Get it free.
HOOVER: Totally cheating.
MCENANY I don't know if it's cheating.
HOOVER: Cheating as a parent.
TAYLOR: I'm guilty.
HOOVER: You're guilty?
TAYLOR: I cheated, then.
MCENANY Some experts say, you know, this is a bad thing for kids. Some say it educates them if you're giving these kids iPads with educational programs on it. So you know, the point is are iPads bad for our toddlers? You have kids.
HOOVER: And you have -- do the whole stats. How many people in your family and how many iPads?
TAYLOR: There are three children, two adults. We have five iPads.
DEUTSCH: How old are the kids?
TAYLOR: My kids are 10 -- I have a 10-year-old son, an 8-year- old son and a 7-year-old daughter.
HOOVER: They're double fisting the iPads.
TAYLOR: No, my son -- my oldest season is 10 years old. He's in fourth grade. Now next year, when he goes to fifth grade, their school gives them iPads. So their -- their curriculum is on an iPad.
HOOVER: That's the thing.
TAYLOR: My kids, my daughter had a -- she used an iPad when she was 3 or 4 years old. And it's -- it's a tool that can be used in a lot of different ways. Now, if you put a kid in front of a television or you hand them an iPad and that's your babysitting, then shame on you. Now, you can use it...
DEUTSCH: I see it all the time.
TAYLOR: But you can use it, some for entertainment, some for educational purposes. It's all in how you implement the tool. I mean, iPads aren't bad. It's the people that use them, how you use them.
MCENANY A question for maybe Donny. You know, a lot of this is so new. IPads are so new. It takes years to do a study with children to see how it truly affects them. I mean, is this something we're going to find out five years from now?
DEUTSCH: They actually do (UNINTELLIGIBLE) studies. I -- this is a real personal pet peeve of mine. There's nothing against people more than going to a restaurant and you see everybody down like this.
I am concerned that the development of creativity in young people today is getting stilted, and it's also affecting parents' relationships.
My 5-year-old just started playing with one of these. And it's affected -- like, her head is down now. And I have to take it away from her. And I think no kids today have any time alone with their thoughts. No kids today have any time with -- and there's a dark underbelly of technology, and I think we're not going to know for 10, 20 years.
Let me just finish the thought -- that we are stilting a lot of creativity with this technology dependence. And I, just as a person, as a dad, get really worried.
REILLY: I see kids in withdrawal all the time, and their parents are yelling at them. And they'd rather deal with angry birds than angry moms.
DEUTSCH: You think it's the parents' fault?
REILLY: It's the parents' fault. Take it away. Should be like candy. You can have a little but not a lot.
You know, and these kids, now that it's a disorder. Did you see now that they think it's a disorder, and they'll start medicating for that? And yet, this kid can concentrate for two hours on Grand Theft Auto but not for two minutes on his homework, so we'll medicate for that. Where does it end?
HOOVER: The Bernard Center for Toddler Development actually did a month-long study on this, right? And they took away the iPads from the kids. They found that their social skills went up. Their verbal skills went up. Their creativity went up in the month that they didn't have the iPads to focus on, and they could actually interact with each other. They had to be more imaginative about working on their building blocks or whatever.
We all know this intuitively. I guess the question is, like Jason's saying, how do you implement the tool? Because you can also, they found, use the iPads in a way that's interactive, that's highly verbal, if you're working with the toddler on whatever sort of pedagogic program is on the iPad. You can do it.
TAYLOR: It is a constant battle, and with three young kids, it is -- it's a constant battle that my wife and I deal with. You have to do your homework first.
We use the computer as a tool, as well. They can play games on the computer occasionally. But before they do anything, they have to finish the Rosetta Stone, which is a computer program. It's all in how you implement it.
REILLY: How do you think the show's going?
REILLY: How would it be if we could swear and were nude?
HOOVER: A hundred times better.
DEUTSCH: Sign me up. Sign me up.
HOOVER: The ratings?
REILLY: The FCC is relaxing -- about to relax their prime-time rules for nudity, for swearing and maybe we'll try it when we come back.
DEUTSCH: This is -- that is lovely. This is...
REILLY: You two are...
REILLY: This is real, though. The FCC is about to relax its prime time -- you remember how Bono said the "F" word? Cher said the "F" word twice? They're going to say that isolated instances of swearing are OK. Not repeated like Howard Stern. And some nudity. So the question is, are you ready for more sex and violence?
DEUTSCH: I'm actually -- you're watching me morph into a Republican in front of your eyes. My feeling is this. And I'm not puritanical. And why do we have to push them? There's enough stations out there. There are enough outlets out there to listen if you want to listen to swear words or you want to see nudity.
Why do we have to push it on the general stations for younger people? And by the way, I'm the farthest guy -- you're looking at me. HOOVER: No, no, no.
DEUTSCH: What's the upside of this?
REILLY: Let me hear you during the breaks.
DEUTSCH: What is the upside of loosening it?
HOOVER: There's got to be, still, some safe space that parents can turn on the television and not worry about what their child is going to see, what's going to influence their child. There just -- there has to be some places (ph). And I have even have -- you know, my husband actually makes me watch these 1940s black-and-white movies at home when there wasn't all this violence and sex and nudity.
I have to tell you. Look. The plot lines were creative. They were way more innovative and there was a subtlety. There was a suggestion of sexuality but not the graphic nudity in your face. You don't need that for good programming.
DEUTSCH: There's something to be said for nudity but just not everywhere.
HOOVER: Not on prime time.
MCENANY The big point is why isn't Rick nude yet? That's my big point.
DEUTSCH: A reason why.
REILLY: It's a big reason.
MCENANY But in all seriousness, you know, this is -- television used to be about family. We remember "The Cosby Show." That was television.
But now, it's not just anti-family. It's hostile to my values as a conservative Christian. It's hostile. My kids, you know, I imagine five years from now when I have kids, they're not going to be able to even watch.
DEUTSCH: Like "The Office" is hostile?
MCENANY: Bad state of America.
DEUTSCHE: "The Office" is -- "Modern Family"?
MCENANY: No. "Family Guy." it's hostile.
DEUTSCH: "Family Guy" is not...
REILLY: Turn it off.
DEUTSCH: The answer is this. Everybody should have their options. If you like crazy stuff. So my point is, you want to watch the -- don't take the other stuff away but give -- but give areas where it's safe space.
MCENANY: Broadcast television.
REILLY: I don't want to see Donald Trump nude, I don't.
DEUTSCH: I don't mean to think about that.
TAYLOR: My thing is I'm almost afraid to see where we go if we relax these laws. To me, if you turn on television already, some of the things that are being said and shown on television, it's...
DEUTSCH: Go to Europe.
TAYLOR: It comes down to -- well, we're not in Europe. It comes down to parents being parents. And parents have to parent and understand what they want their kids to watch and not watch.
But I think the broadcast networks also have a responsibility to inform and prepare the audience for what's coming up. And I know they put these little -- these little snippets up for three seconds and say may contain graphic nudity. Whatever it is. I think we have to do a better job as a broadcast network of alerting people and informing them of what the -- what the show really is because there's plenty of times that I'm sitting down, watching television with my kids or with younger people. And something will come up and you try to hurry up and cover their eyes. You try to turn their head. It's too late.
HOOVER: Like TV movie ratings. Movie ratings, as well. I mean, some of these ratings for PG-13, but they're really graphic violence.
TAYLOR: Afraid to take your kid.
REILLY: Every Christian kid you're worried about, they have seen porn on the Internet and can see it any time.
HOOVER: Does that make it right?
MCENANY: Is the status quo an excuse to not make a change? That's essentially what you're saying. Status quo is not an excuse to make a more idealistic, better world to work toward.
REILLY: You want to go more...
MCENANY: I want to get back to the Cosby days and Jason and Margaret. Let's get back to the Cosby days and out of the status quo. The status quo is not right.
DEUTSCH: Why do you want to get back...
MCENANY: It's not happening because we have people like who say, it's not going to happen.
DEUTSCH: You're the reason.
MCENANY: It's Donny.
DEUTSCH: No, no, no. The interesting thing is that my whole point is there should be freedom across the board and spaces where you're not -- but don't prescribe that it should be all Cosby either. You're on the other side of the argument.
MCENANY: Is broadcast television Cosby right now?
MCENANY: Far from it.
DEUTSCH: But when you say, "Let's get back to Cosby," what I'm saying is we are in such a segmented world with 500 channels, everything, there's enough for everybody. And neither side should say don't do this, do this. But there should be safe space. And that's -- nobody wants all Cosby.
HOOVER: I actually think you're saying the same thing. You guys agree on -- that broadcast television should sort of be this safe space. She's not saying you can't have porn channels.
DEUTSCH: Yes, she is.
HOOVER: You can have the porn channels.
Maybe she is, maybe she is.
TAYLOR: Not everybody can afford cable or satellite either.
TAYLOR: So the folks that can't afford it, there should be a safe place for them, as well, to be able to watch television in the evenings.
DEUTSCH: By the way, speaking of affording cable, if you go to college today, you still may not get a job to allow you to afford cable. Coming up next, this is really stunning stuff. Is college worth it anymore? We'll be right back with that.
REILLY: OK. As a demonstration of the last segment...
DEUTSCH: Hey, hey, come on.
OK. Who wants a minimum wage job? Because if you want one, go to college. Three hundred thousand people now graduated college, working minimum wage jobs. There are 50 percent of college graduates since the year 2012 are in jobs now where they didn't need a college degree.
REILLY: Really? 50 percent? DEUTSCH: Fifty percent. Jason, are we going to let our kids not go to college?
TAYLOR: No. They have to go to college. And you have to find -- it's a changing work force nowadays. And in the state of the economy, certain degrees or major fields in college just aren't translating into quality jobs outside.
Sixty percent of kids that go to college aren't even working in the field that they went to school for. It's astonishing. What we ended up with now is tons of bartenders with bachelor's degrees.
HOOVER: We're actually referring to this 2012 study from Georgetown University. Georgetown University went out and polled -- her alma mater. And they polled the top degrees from there and then they looked at the unemployment rate.
No. 1, architecture. Now, the architecture degrees from Georgetown University, 13.9 percent unemployment rate. Is this not related to the housing crisis, though?
DEUTSCH: Of course.
HOOVER: Does this have something to do with the state of our current economy?
TAYLOR: Of course.
HOOVER: And however, if you move on, there are some other soft degrees.
HOOVER: Fine arts, for example. Twelve point six percent unemployment. And information systems. I don't believe at all.
DEUTSCH: I want to do this. This is what I want to do with this. Any young people working out there. The problem -- this is a snapshot of today, No. 1, not tomorrow.
By the way, architects may be hot in five years and it's forgetting the most important thing. I used to do a show about entrepreneurship. And every successful person, from Bill Gates on to a woman making cookies at home, when you say what's the key to success? They say passion. So you find what you love in school. That is the beginning, middle -- so yes!
HOOVER: Donny -- I'm going to mimic Donny and do one of these. It's not the degree. It's what you do alongside the degree. I majored in international politics. I'm sure it's somewhere on the list of people who are unemployed. But I had a passion and interned in the White House and Capitol Hill. And that's what it's about. What you do alongside your degree, because interning is the key. It's the key to employment.
HOOVER: To be a devil's advocate here, though, you want to find the intersection of your talents and the marketplace. Right?
Because you can, if you want to major in underwater basket weaving. And there is no marketplace for underwater basket. I mean, what we do have a huge dirt of people in the stem technology. Science technology, engineering and math.
We need more engineers in this country. We need more math mathematicians in this country. It's fine what you want to do. If it's a professional athlete, I'm not pushing my sons to be a professional athlete. You know, I got very fortunate to do what I do for ten years.
But if my kids want to think we want to go and do fine arts or be an architect, I want them to go be the best they can be and enjoy what they're doing.
REILLY: Let me just tell you -- let me name some people who never got a degree. Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Walt Disney, Andrew Carney; Frank Lloyd Wright, an architect; Henry Ford; and of course, the biggest businessman of all, Puff Daddy. None of those people have a degree.
HOOVER: Peter Kill (ph), one of the founders of the Center of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), one of the current investors in Facebook, actually is paying kids $100,000 not to go to college, saying it's a total waste of time. A hundred thousand dollars. As a kid, you've got to start somewhere.
You've got to start a business. You've got to start a business. You've got to show the work. But then you've got 100,000 bucks not to go to college. Nobody went to college.
DEUTSCH: This is what we do for work. And I get somebody who loves fish, he can build an aquarium.
Everything you can turn into -- there's a basket waving store to be done somewhere.
MCENANY: And quick point, quick point: Just want to add Rush Limbaugh to your list. My hero.
HOOVER: Karl Rove.
DEUTSCH: That defeats the whole purpose. Karl Rove.
HOOVER: Didn't go to college.
Here we go. There is actually no good segue. This next segment is actually very fascinating. We're already tight on airplanes, traveling. They're going to actually give you more room, more leg room and less room in the toilet. Coming up next.
HOOVER: All right. We're back here at "The Point." This one is just hysterical. Although we're not all excited about it.
So Delta Airlines is going to be the first of one of these carriers to order a new set of 737s, Boeing 737s, that are going to give the very last row in the airplane a little more room to recline. And they're going to get that place from the lavatory. So they're going to make the lavatory much smaller. So for example, Jason, how tall are you?
TAYLOR: Six 6".
HOOVER: Six 6".
TAYLOR: Two-fifty. And here's the question. They're going to make the one in the back smaller. Is the one up front going to stay the way it is? I have to be a contortionist to fit into this thing.
Let me read this. Delta claims the flyers won't be bothered by the smaller bathrooms because the design will mostly utilize space that was previously wasted. There's waste?
DEUTSCH: Extra library in there.
TAYLOR: There's waste. Not sure it's wasted space in there. I don't get this.
REILLY: What do you care? They don't feed us anymore. You don't need a restroom anymore.
TAYLOR: Like I said, I rarely go in there. But there's a lot of -- a lot of women use these restrooms a lot. I know they're not quite as big as me, but...
REILLY: I think they're onto something here. There's a lot of ways they could save money. How about bench seating? Right? That would be four people in there.
HOOVER: I don't know if TSA would like that.
REILLY: Third seat in the cockpit. You know what? Sell that.
HOOVER: The jump seat.
REILLY: You know, when that restroom's really going to get small with they have that NRA armed guard now. Kayleigh wants.
MCENANY: They actually already have those.
REILLY: No, they're going to be in the restroom with you when you get in there.
MCENANY: There's one over there. I see him over there.
DEUTSCH: I would happily...
MCENANY: My trade.
DEUTSCH: I would happily trade to be 6'6" and 250. I'm a 5'10" Jewish guy. All right?
TAYLOR: Hey, it worked out for both of us. But either way, I can't go in there. I just -- they have totally eliminated a part of their customer base.
HOOVER: Hopefully, it's only on short flights. But the 737's don't normally do this across the country, JFK to L.A.
REILLY: Like he flies commercial.
MCENANY: And in the interest of bipartisanship, how well does Chris Christie or Michael Moore, too.
So anyway, that aside, that aside, it's our favorite time of the day, "Bonus Points." Who on the panel made the best point?
I give Donny kudos for reaching across the aisle and saying that these victims of Ft. Hood need their Purple Hearts, because they absolutely do. And good for you for recognizing, and I look forward to our protest in front of the White House.
HOOVER: Pat him on the back. Bonus points.
TAYLOR: You're going to be 2-0 here. I give Donny a point, too. And I think most of the panel here. Rick might have varied a little bit but the Purple Heart issue. The folks in Ft. Hood, they deserve to get Purple Hearts. Whenever it happens, it happened but they absolutely deserve to get Purple Hearts, and the true heroes are the men and women serving in our military.
HOOVER: I couldn't agree with you more. I'm going to do Donny, too, but on a different -- I know. We might have a winner tonight.
REILLY: A loser.
HOOVER: I have to say -- what I've got to say is I really liked that you said, "You know, look. You've just got to approach teaching with common sense. You have to grade teachers."
And I think that's not a typical left wing or center left position but it's very sensible and so I applaud you for that. I was psyched. You get my award tonight.
DEUTSCH: The two -- both the women at the panel get my award for shaming the men and showing us that the stronger sex does not cheat. So you made us all feel very small and we're going to do better. OK?
REILLY: Not buying it.
HOOVER: Yes. We want you to be a better man.
REILLY: I didn't want to vote for you but everyone is voting for you. DEUTSCH: Wow!
REILLY: I thought that was really interesting. About 50 percent of the 2010 college graduates aren't working in a job where they need a degree. That's so depressing.
TAYLOR: I had that stat on my paper. I think Donny cheated. He cheated.
REILLY: We are going to go drink and talk about a basket weaving firm.
HOOVER: Donny is buying for us tonight.
REILLY: We're going to start a basket-weaving company, because Jason thinks it's a great idea.
REILLY: We hope you (GET TO) THE POINT tomorrow night. "AC 360" is next.