Return to Transcripts main page
Is Jodi Mentally Ill?; Cop Interrogates Jodi & Parents
Aired April 3, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Jodi Arias trial day 41. Her own mother says she has mental problems.
SANDRA ARIAS, JODI`S MOM: Jodi would freak out all the time. I had quite a few of her friends call me and tell me that I needed to get her some help.
PINSKY: Her father calls her a strange person.
WILLIAM ARIAS, JODI`S DAD: She snuck up at his house and she looked in the window she saw him on the couch with another woman and she was planning on marrying this guy.
PINSKY: So, why didn`t Jodi get help? Why didn`t she plead insanity? Why didn`t her defense present these tapes?
I will tell you what nobody else will, what these shocking admissions mean for Jodi?
S. ARIAS: I feel like I`m going to puke!
PINSKY: Let us get started.
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host this week, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com.
Joining us, attorney and former prosecutor and author of "Guilt by Degrees", Marcia Clark, attorney and Sirius XM radio host, Jenny Hutt, and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
Jodi`s parents have questioned their daughter`s mental stability on those police tapes we first brought to you last night. We will be looking extensively into them tonight. And I am telling you, they tell you the whole story. We will be addressing this in a way you will not see anywhere else.
But, first, in court, watch this.
WITNESS: Talked about a woman by the name of Brandy.
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: What`s your name, girl?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brandy.
ALEXANDER: Rhymes with candy, you are sweet.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In speaking with Jodi, did you learn whether or not Mr. Alexander got her Valentine`s present?
WITNESS: Yes, she did.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And do you remember what it was that she got?
WITNESS: She got a pair of Spider-Man underpants.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did she also get a t-shirt with the name trafficking Travis Alexander`s?
WITNESS: Yes, she did.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And -- I`m sorry, or Travis`s?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK.
WITNESS: You know, it was either Travis Alexander`s or Travis`s.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did it have an apostrophe?
WITNESS: Yes, it did.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And apostrophes are used for what?
WITNESS: Usually possessive (ph). She says --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, hearsay.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Do you mind use another word then says?
WITNESS: Yes, I need a thesaurus, I think. I keep saying say, I know, not supposed to say, say.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Is this e-mail from Mr. Alexander?
WITNESS: Yes, it is.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And the subject matter of this e-mail, what is it?
WITNESS: About pictures that he would like her to send him.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And these pictures, are they for business? Or can you get a sense from reading the e-mail, what the pictures are for?
WITNESS: He wants to drool over them all day. They are sexy pictures, not naked pictures.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s an inkling that Jodi was beginning to pull away?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But just an inkling, right?
WITNESS: Just an inkling. Usually, people do like their sexual intimacy. And you keep doing it and not doing it because you want to do it. You`re doing it because you feel like that`s what keeps the relationship together.
ALEXANDER: Sixty (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pictures --
PINSKY: Sixty (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pictures?
PINSKY: How will we do that?
ALEXANDER: A timer.
PINSKY: Oh, yes. You`re smart.
WITNESS: Mr. Alexander is asking her to do some favors.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Is he doing anything that`s making her feel special?
WITNESS: I`m going to have to review that again.
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure.
WITNESS: Right. I remember that. He`s saying to her --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection (ph).
PINSKY: "In Session" correspondent, Beth Karas, has been covering the trial.
Beth, I think I discovered why we`re probably not going to get a death sentence here because she`s going to die of old age before we get a conviction. Court ended early again. What happened now?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alyce LaViolette, this domestic violence expert was ill. She did very well for the morning, but the judge called a five minute break about a half hour before we typically break for lunch. LaViolette left the courtroom quickly, came back after the five minutes, the judge said, members of the jury, you`re going home, Miss LaViolette is ill and so, we`ll be back tomorrow.
So, it was a half day today. It was day six for her on the stand. So, she`s going to beat Dr. Samuels, who did all his testimony in six days.
PINSKY: Beth, I also heard in the courtroom since the dismissal of one juror, there`s a certain amount of shall I call it a public be heading, everyone has their P`s and Q`s lined up?
KARAS: Yes. The jury? You`re talking about the jury behaving themselves and being very attentive and that empty seat is very conspicuous in the courtroom.
KARAS: Yes, indeed.
PINSKY: Thank you, Beth Karas.
So, my question to my attorney friends here is why didn`t Jodi`s defense use these tapes or why didn`t they go after the unstable or insanity defense -- starting with you, Jenny, go right ahead.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Listen, I don`t think that Jodi Arias is insane, so as to negate her mental state. I think she was insanely jealous but I think it was a premeditated rage that ensued. I think it was what people have been saying, that if she couldn`t have him, then nobody else could. I think she was jealous all along and it culminated. She wasn`t insane at the time of the murder.
PINSKY: I think you might be right on that.
Cheryl, what do you say?
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I think she was definitely insanely jealous. I don`t think they would have won. If they tried go for insanity, there`s not enough there and there`s too much evidence of planning. So, I think they had to do it this way.
PINSKY: And, Marcia, do you agree with what Cheryl is saying? The fact is, well, we have evidence on behalf of these parents, is that she had what we call character problem but wasn`t necessarily insane, and insanity is almost impossible to get in Arizona, isn`t it?
MARCIA CLARK, ATTORNEY: It`s tough, very tough. And it`s increasingly tough all over the country, Drew. Nobody really likes the insanity defense.
But let me just say there is something definitely not right about Jodi Arias. She`s a little it loose in the head. I`m not saying she isn`t. But that`s a far cry from being legally insane. Having a mental problem is not the same thing as being legally insane. Legally insane, you have to show the defendant did not know right from wrong, did not appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct.
There`s nothing about that that applies to Jodi Arias. She fled. She tried to hide evidence. She tried to lie. Everything about her conduct shows she knew right from wrong.
So, you know, there aren`t many people who commit first degree murder wrapped all that tight. There`s going to be something wrong with them. You can`t just give people a pass on a mental defense because there`s something wrong with them. That`s why they commit the crime to begin with.
PINSKY: That --
CLARK: No, she`s not even legally insane, not even close.
PINSKY: Mark, that is my thing -- go ahead, Cheryl. Tell us.
ARUTT: Well, there`s another way her mental health can be an issue, other than insanity defense. And that is during the penalty phase if she is found guilty, they could make her mental health a mitigating factor in sentencing.
MARK EIGLARSH, CO-HOST: Yes.
ARUTT: And I don`t know they won`t do that.
PINSKY: Mark, do you think they will?
CLARK: I agree.
EIGLARSH: Without question, that`s what they`re supposed to do. That`s why there`s two chairs, there`s two lawyers and one is supposed to be focusing primarily on mitigation.
Let me just tell you, first of all, that insanity defense is used in only 1 percent of criminal cases in the criminal system and it`s only successful in about 3 percent of the time. There`s a reason. It wouldn`t work here with certainty. There`s too many issues that show she knew right from wrong at the time, before, during and after the offense.
EIGLARSH: But also, jurors know they would send her to some hospital.
I need to ask you a question, Drew.
EIGLARSH: You think insanity might have been the way to go. I want to know why.
PINSKY: No, I don`t think it`s the way to go. Here`s my -- here`s what I`m taking away from all of this. She was not well -- she had probably -- what Cheryl and I have been speculating about for days, maybe weeks now, is something in the range of borderline personality with some psychopathy.
She was in trouble. Friends were concerned about her. Parents were concerned about her. That was the time for her to get help. Her parents tried. Her friends tried. She refused. She killed somebody.
Now, I have no patience for that. I got nothing. I got nothing. Now, she has to pay the pauper. She should -- anybody out there, if you know someone who`s in trouble. Get them help now.
Look at Aurora, Colorado, look at Newtown, Connecticut -- how many times do we have to go through this before people get help and avoid these kinds of tragedies? It`s over now. It`s time to go to court and be convicted. That`s what`s coming next.
Speaking of next, we`re going to hear more from Jodi`s parents. "The Behavior Bureau" and I are going to look at those comments in-depth and reveal what they really mean.
And later, a number of people apparently thought Jodi needed mental health. So, why didn`t she get it? Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. ARIAS: Jodi has mental problems. Jodi would freak out all the time. I had quite a few of her friends call me and tell me that I needed to get her some help. We don`t have a good relationship, me and Jodi. She would just totally flip out on me. I had one of her friends call me in the middle of the night and say you need to get Jodi some help.
INTERROGATOR: What do you mean she would flip out?
S. ARIAS: Just like calm one minute and happy, and the next minute, in tears, like she`s a totally different person.
INTERROGATOR: Like you wanted to help her, but she wouldn`t let you, kind of stuff?
S. ARIAS: Yes, and she wouldn`t ever tell me what she was crying about, but it was like a total -- I mean, like something would snap and she would all of a sudden be in tears and call me back, and, God, you know?
INTERROGATOR: Was she on any kind of medication at all?
S. ARIAS: No. Do they do a psychiatric evaluation when they do things like this?
INTERROGATOR: I`m sure they will. I`m sure they will. It doesn`t come up in every case but in her situation, it`s something that will probably come.
S. ARIAS: Her friend called me one night and said he even called some hotline to ask them questions about what she was doing. He said, sounds like she really needs some help but she wouldn`t do anything. I mean, I didn`t really bring it up to her. I thought, if I got her up here where we could take care of her, that things would be OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It sounds like she really needed some help. Parents, if you have adult children or children with mental health, do not go it alone.
Time for the "Behavior Bureau".
Back with my co-host Mark Eiglarsh.
Joining the two of us: clinical psychologist Judy Ho, Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hutt, forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
Cheryl, I`m going to go to you first. I want you to talk about the flipping and flopping that we heard the mom describing in that tape.
But I have no patience with any of this. I`m sorry, I`m beside myself. The fact we have people in Aurora, Colorado, in Newtown, Connecticut, with severe mental health issues, who -- I have deep empathy when they`re ill, and they get help, we can help them. When they don`t and they kill people, I got nothing.
Cheryl, what about the flipping and flopping?
ARUTT: Well, we have got to -- we`ve got to stop waiting until somebody gets murdered before we do anything about this. This flipping and flopping is like a turning on a dime kind of thing. The kind of thing that Jodi has is a book about it called "I Hate You, Don`t Leave Me." And I think that sums it up, like this is the kind of thing where somebody can love you, you`re the best person in the world, you`re my best friend one minute and then, you`re Satan. I mean, it can go that fast and somebody can turn against you. We`ve got to start doing something about this.
EIGLARSH: Cheryl, let me ask you.
PINSKY: Mark, go ahead -- Mark.
EIGLARSH: I was listening to the mother`s behavior. While there`s no evidence of drug use, I was substituting psychiatric problems for drug addiction. Just for a second --
EIGLARSH: -- can you, who knows a little bit about drug addiction --
PINSKY: Little bit.
EIGLARSH: -- can you rule that out? Can you rule that out at all?
PINSKY: Well, that`s what if you look -- remember Dr. Samuels was talking about the DSM 4 had out even though we`re on the DSM 5 now, don`t want to comment about that. But anyway, he had this diagnostic manual out there on the stand.
And in there in, at the bottom of every diagnostic block they give you, they say, provided there`s no evidence of medical explanation, drug abuse, drug addiction or drug withdrawal because you can`t conclude anything when somebody is doing drugs. We keep hearing no drugs here.
Judy, what about the flipping and flopping? Borderline, no?
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely borderline, Dr. Drew. The mom asked, are they going to do a psychiatric evaluation? Mom, you should have taken Jodi for a psychiatric evaluation on your own.
You`re not going to nurse her back to health. It`s not a cold. This is something serious. And the mom is completely uninformed about her daughter, yet she`s getting all these signs that she`s completely crazy and the defense is taking her journal like an encyclopedia and she is not well, Dr. Drew. She is not well.
PINSKY: And we could have had deep empathy for Jodi Arias. But instead, we end up having enmity and nothing else.
Cheryl, were you trying to say something?
HUTT: I was trying to say something, actually.
PINSKY: Jenny, before you do, I want to ask you directly this question, laying the blame at the foot of the parents, do we -- are we creating more Jodi Arias victims?
HUTT: Yes, well, this is the thing. I look at these parents. And I feel empathy for parents whose kid turns into a murderer. It`s like, on the one hand, you want to blame the parents when you this mother say things like the friends were calling. She was calling repeatedly. This isn`t one time.
So I question, how did this mother not go to her daughter, drag her in the car and get her some help immediately? How did that happen? That`s strange to me.
PINSKY: You know why.
HUTT: But I`m not in the house.
PINSKY: I tell you, but, Jenny, I will tell you why, because I deal with this all the time. People go, oh, I don`t want to hurt my relationship with my kids. It`s an adult child, mind you, so they don`t have real control over these people. But listen, I told parents 100 times, get a conservatorship. They`re going to die if you don`t do it. I guarantee they`re going to die.
I`m not usually worried about other people dying, worried about them killing themselves, and guess what -- go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: I was just going to say, but what`s so sad about this, Dr. Drew, and you`re right, exactly the advice that you give people is correct. But what`s so sad is these parents think she did it, too. These are parents who don`t seem -- they seem devastated but not exactly shocked by the news.
PINSKY: Interesting. That tells you -- Jenny, that is exactly the point. These tapes tell you everything you need to know.
Now, next, you will not believe what Jodi`s father says about his own daughter.
And later, we get the reaction of my jurors to these tapes of Jodi`s parents? Is this a game changer in the court of public opinion?
Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERROGATOR: How are you doing? You doing OK?
S. ARIAS: Not good. No.
INTERROGATOR: As good as can be expected, I guess.
S. ARIAS: I feel like I`m going to puke.
Why would she do something like this?
INTERROGATOR: I don`t know and that`s what I was trying to --
S. ARIAS: Did she just snap, or what? I don`t know. And then how could she come back here and be normal and then when her friends called and told her that he died, she totally freaked-out, like she knew something about it. I mean, how could somebody do that? How? I can`t -- I can`t even -- I can`t think of it, how anybody could do that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I think right there, Mark Eiglarsh, that is the tape of her mom being interrogated, right there, the mom articulates while they`re all watching this, how could she? How could she lie like that? How could she behave like that? It`s hard to understand.
But I`m going to tell you, you tell me if I`m wrong. The first thing you notice about those interrogation tapes is the mom, that`s how an honest person responds to an interrogation, no?
EIGLARSH: Well, of course. The biggest adverse to this whole thing is LaViolette, who`s up there acting as if she`s a witness to Jodi`s life.
EIGLARSH: You would have thought that she was there in the room when this alleged domestic violence took place. You look at the mom, and you were absolutely right. Those are real emotions. That`s a mother who knows her daughter.
PINSKY: And the confusion, too. I mean, that`s -- the disbelief, the confusion, how does this all happen. And, yes, LaViolette for me -- God bless her for a great primer on domestic violence or whatnot, but I can`t listen anymore, I hear nothing. I hear nothing because these tapes tell me everything I need to know.
EIGLARSH: Well, let me tell you, Drew, here`s what bothers me. What bothers me is not one point I watched all day today did LaViolette say, well, assuming what Jodi tells me is true, then the following.
EIGLARSH: She never said that. And anyone with credibility does that.
PINSKY: Hey, Mark, Samuels is same thing. Same thing. And then, to me, that`s really problematic. You`ve got to go in, this is a liar, this is a known liar, you got to assume everything is wrong.
I want to take a look at dad reacting to the overwhelming evidence against his daughter. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERROGATOR: Well, the evidence is pretty damning at this point. It`s we have so much. I`ve never had this much evidence in a case before. I wasn`t sure if she did it herself or if she had help with somebody but she would not tell me. She absolutely just refused. And she`s continuing to say that I had nothing to do with it. And she`s completely cold about it.
W. ARIAS: She was a strange person because after she left the house, she was just kind of got a little strange. You know, she was really friendly sometimes, she`ll call and real sweet and 10 minutes later, she`ll call in a rage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, "Behavior Bureau", we`re going to go around the horn here and you are going to tell me about what she was showing her dad that maybe she didn`t show her mom that led him to say, my daughter was strange -- Jenny.
HUTT: Well, first off, his definitely of detachment, what looks to me like detachment from his daughter is also upsetting. Again, I`m hesitant to blame the parents. But, clearly, this was not a high functioning household.
He again doesn`t seem so shocked by the allegation. I think he`s sad, but he`s bolstering the prosecution`s case.
PINSKY: Right. Not only not sad, my daughter`s strange, yes, you`ve got the right person here. Judy, what do you say?
HUTT: She is strange.
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, her dad seems a little bit creeped out by his own daughter. I mean, he`s afraid of his own daughter, don`t you think? There`s a little bit of victim mentality there.
I think his dad saw the creepy side of Jodi where Jodi`s mom saw the emotional volatile side of Jodi where she would have these huge swings and act completely irrationally.
PINSKY: Yes, Cheryl, that`s what I learned. Judy brings up a point, the dad does seem beaten down by his daughter.
But, Cheryl, I think mom saw what we call -- what I`ve learned from these tapes is mom saw the more borderline stuff, the chaos, and the narcissism. Dad saw the more psychopathic piece.
ARUTT: I think you`re right, I think dad was not surprised his daughter could do something this creepy. Mom was a lot like Alyce LaViolette. Her brain didn`t go there because she`s not a psychopath. And she was stunned, how could somebody act so normal after they do something like this?
And it`s like when are people going to get mental health care is health care, if this were cancer, or if this were a broken leg, if somebody were walking around with a huge gash, we would get them help. We wouldn`t just say, oh, well, they don`t want help, so they`re going to walk around. It`s like we really have to get this together.
PINSKY: Cheryl, we said this more, we treat illnesses above the neck differently than below the neck and we should not.
ARUTT: But --
PINSKY: Thank you, behavior panel, "Behavior Bureau". Got to go. Got to break.
Next up, the man who helped Jodi become a Mormon is going to be here again. He will answer this question, did he see any signs of this when he talked to Jodi?
And later, more on the parents confessions from Jodi`s parents about their daughter`s scary, bizarre, strange behavior.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: You told Darrell you wanted to abstain from sex until you were married. If that were the case, why did you have sexual relations with Travis?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: Well, my understanding at the time, Darrell and I did not -- we were not intimate after convention. And shortly thereafter, the missionaries began to come over to my house and preach about the law of chastity. They didn`t overly preach, they mentioned it, explained it briefly. Not in great detail. I wasn`t comfortable asking these two young kids I just met in detail about it.
But Travis and I had intimate conversations. And he -- how he explained it to me was that vaginal sex is absolutely off-limits and everything else is not as egregious to that law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK, Jodi.
Welcome back. My co-host this week is Mark Eiglarsh. Back with me tonight is Jeff Jensen. He`s an elder in the Mormon Church. He actually helped Jodi with her conversion of baptism. I had to cut him short last night, and Jeff I`m very, very sorry for that. Joining us is Cheryl Arutt, Jenny Hutt.
Jeff, I want to get back to the conversation. We`re going to pick up to where we were last night. What would have happened to Travis? I always wondered why she had these tapes in the first place. Why did she have these tapes? What would have happened to Travis if she had released those sex tapes?
JEFF JENSEN, TAUGHT JODI TO BE MORMON: Well, you know, like any other sin or any of those things that`s done against the teachings of the Mormon Church, those things are handled with any ecclesiastical leader like a bishop. You know, those things are talked about, and there`s a repentance process. And you know, we believe that those things can be forgiven. You can repent of those things, but there is a process involved.
PINSKY: OK. And what about what she just said on the stand there, that tape we just heard where she claims, I think, she`s talking about you, that her chastity pledge was sort of not explained to her. She didn`t understand -- only vaginal but all these exceptions, in her mind. What about that?
JENSEN: Yes. You know, those -- when we teach the law of chastity as missionaries, we say, these words, we say, to live the law of chastity is to live a life completely abstinent of sexual relations outside a legal marriage.
PINSKY: OK, Jeff. Jeff, I got to stop you. What didn`t she understand about that? How can she -- I know how she can, she lies. But did you have any doubt what you were telling her when you explained that to her?
JENSEN: I did not. I felt that she understood. I mean, obviously, we didn`t go into detail. You know, we didn`t mention all the types of things that were off-limits. But like you said, the words any sexual relations, you would think would be pretty self-explanatory. She didn`t ask us --
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jeff, let me ask you something. You were with her, I think you said, like a month and a half you were working with her. Was that the correct time that I heard? Yes?
JENSEN: Yes. Yes, I knew her for about that period of time. Yes.
EIGLARSH: All right. Here`s a question. If you had to tell us right now, there was one time that I noticed where she seemed a bit off, something odd about her, maybe. And we`re looking for some type of insight into her mental health. Is there one thing that you can point to now in retrospect we go, hmm, that was a bit odd?
JENSEN: You know, there wasn`t. You know, she seemed perfectly normal and interested in what she was learning. She did -- you know, she seemed very quiet to me. But, I didn`t feel like there was anything off. You know, as a missionary or as a member of the church, we`re always looking for the good in people.
And we want to bring out that good and help them be happy. And I didn`t see anything that was off.
PINSKY: Cheryl or Jenny, do you have a question for Jeff? I see you guys nodding your head and engaged in this conversation. Go ahead.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: What I`m thinking about, first of all, Travis is a guy. And I kind of feel like here was the sort of the anything but mentality was being employed, that anything but vaginal intercourse was considered OK. And maybe he was cajoling Jodi to have more sex or something because he`s a guy.
PINSKY: Well, of course.
HUTT: But Dr. Drew, do you think that gives rise to abuse? No, right?
PINSKY: I couldn`t hear what you said. Say the last part again?
HUTT: I said, do you think that gives rise to abuse?
PINSKY: I think that -- listen, we`ve -- and we`ve heard the tapes where she -- you know, he`s kind of going down the path seeing how far he can go. And, Jeff, I imagine you -- you know, you were sort of surprised by that, too. But she was sort of the one that really got the momentum going there. Were you working with Travis, Jeff, before he came around with Jodi or was only when he referred Jodi to you that you got to know Travis?
JENSEN: Yes. Only when he referred -- actually, only when he referred Jodi to us. I only maybe ever had conversations with Travis two times, once when he called us about Jodi initially, and then, once on the day of Jodi`s baptism. He was there. It`s the only time I had interactions with him. Besides that, we met with Jodi and were working with her and Travis wasn`t involved in that teaching process.
PINSKY: I`m going to give Cheryl a chance to ask question in a second. But in control room, if any callers and our viewers want to call him and ask a question, I mean, this would be an interesting time to take that as well. Cheryl, go ahead.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Jeff, can I just thank you for giving me a deeper understanding of the missionary position?
JENSEN: You`re welcome. You`re welcome.
EIGLARSH: No, you can`t. Jeff, I have a legitimate question. Jeff, many people -- if we could wait for this to die down.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark. Please, bail us out here.
EIGLARSH: Jeff, many are arguing that this was all a ruse, that she just went through the motions, that she was manipulating him and she was like, yes, I`ll go through the Mormon thing. Did you ever see any signs of that or did she really look like she was into a religion that apparently she wasn`t really following to a T?
JENSEN: Yes. You know, I thought about that, obviously, after the fact. You know, I feel a little -- you feel a little used when this is coming out. But, as I`ve looked back on it, I felt like Jodi was sincere in her desire. I felt like she wanted to live the laws. I feel like she wanted to live that lifestyle. I mean, there were many times in church meetings that Travis wasn`t even present.
You know, she gave up and gave a talk in those church meetings and she said some very, you know, intelligent and powerful things that were right along the line with the teachings of the Mormon Church. I felt like she did want to. I mean, there was obviously some inner conflict with not living those laws to a T, but I felt like she did have a desire.
PINSKY: You got that right, Jeff.
PINSKY: Maggie in Texas, you want to ask Jeff something. Go ahead.
MAGGIE, TEXAS: I do. On this subject, I`m a member of the church. And I have been watching her about the law of chastity. And it just hurts my heart because the law of chastity, there`s no sex allowed. And to sit there and say oral or anal sex is fine, that the church says that`s OK, but not vaginal, it an atrocity.
That makes me so ill. And she can`t blame, you know, Travis for teaching her this or not telling her that, because after the missionaries are through, she still has three more interviews before baptism.
PINSKY: And Maggie -- Maggie, and Jeff is as clear as he could possibly be about what he taught her. And I don`t know how much clearer he could possibly have been. It`s just not -- there`s not a clearer language to have used. So, Maggie, thank you for pointing that. I appreciate it. I`ve got to wrap this up here. For more, please check out the cultural hall podcast.
Next up, we are grading the detective who interrogated Jodi and interviewed her parents. His report card, you can`t quite see him there. He`s out of the frame. We`re going to rate -- we`re going to give him a grade after the break.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold accusation, Jodi invented her parental abuse. We`ve heard this story about the spoon. Is it true? Well, we`ve got 12 jurors in studio who will decide as well as you, our virtual jury, at home at HLNTV.com #Jodijury. Again, our bold accusation tonight, Jodi invented her parental abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Esteban Flores.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who do you work for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The city police department.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what do you do --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m currently assigned to the homicide unit as a detective.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What were you`re duties and what (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Respond to the scene, investigate the actual crime scene, talk to witnesses, and basically, try to solve the crime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re considered under arrest or detained, you`re not free to go. And I`m a police officer. I have to read you your rights. OK. I`m sure you heard them on TV. You do have the right to remain silent.
ARIAS: Anyway, what was I saying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s -- you know, the whole trust issue keeps coming back into my mind. He was a big time flirt. My job is to speak for Travis right now. And everything Travis is telling me said Jodi did this to me. Have you talked to your parents about what happened? Why are they not surprised that you`re sitting here talking to me? How are you doing? You doing OK?
ARIAS: Not good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That can be expected.
ARIAS: I feel like I`m going to puke.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only thing I don`t have is why. Why she did this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, man. She was getting along with him so good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s move after the breakup.
ARIAS: Oh, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do with the gun?
ARIAS: I never had it in my possession.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi, you did.
ARIAS: Never. I don`t have it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. You don`t have it. People say that when they know of the gun, they`ve seen the gun, they`ve touched the gun, you don`t have it. Are you doing OK?
ARIAS: It doesn`t matter how I`m doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does to me.
ARIAS: Thank you --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You felt it wasn`t important to give accurate testimony in court in your prior proceedings, is that what you`re telling me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, that`s not what I`m saying.
PINSKY: Time for a report card. Mark Eiglarsh is back with me along with Marcia Clark, Loni Coombs, and Cheryl Arutt. Tonight, we are grading the detective, Flores, the man we see on those hours and hours of interrogation tapes with Jodi and her parents. Don`t forget the rules, guys. Hold your grade until everyone is done discussing Esteban Flores.
Mark, you`ve seen many detective interrogations. How did this gentleman do? And by the way, in that stuff we just watched, I saw some things I have not seen before and my esteem for him went up -- Mark.
EIGLARSH: Yes. No, I`ve been doing this 21 years in the criminal arena. And I was extremely impressed not only with his demeanor but his style, the way he went about doing this. This case is a lot stronger because he locked her into two completely different stories and he was able to do that by just giving her a little bit, because if he gives her too much and shows her everything that he`s got, you got lawyers like me arguing, she was just trying to please you.
She was just regurgitating what you gave to her, and so, she knew what was going on. So, I think he did a phenomenal job and he took the presumption of innocence and a court of public opinion and shifted it over to her.
PINSKY: Marcia, what say you?
MARCIA CLARK, ATTORNEY: I agree. This is excellent. This is 101. I think all detectives should really study this guy`s behavior, his demeanor, the way the pacing of it, the way that he was patient with her, the verbiage he used, the tone he used, relaxed, laid back, quiet, careful. No pushing, no shoving, no histrionics, perfect.
I would assume he would adjust this behavior with a different kind of suspect, but for her, he was absolutely right on the money. Just what you`d hope for. And by the way, his demeanor on the witness stand that you showed, that little clip of where he was being confronted with an inconsistent statement, spot on.
That`s exactly what you want a detective to do. Don`t argue, don`t fight, just admit, you know, you can make a mistake and let it go. And just exactly right.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: I have to agree with everyone. As far as the interrogations, he was so smooth, he was so conversational, and he definitely tailored his demeanor to Jodi. So patient. I don`t know how many other people would be able to hang in there for hours with her as she went through all of the different mass nations and details, you know how she loves to tell these stories.
And he`d just hang in there as time went by. He`d push a little bit and then she`d give him a little bit more. And then he`d push a little bit. And then, you see the way he did the interrogations or interviews with the parents. Very -- also really good there, really paying attention to who he was talking to and never pushed so hard that they would get defensive, allowed them to talk and because of his skills, we ended up with hours of really revealing interviews.
PINSKY: And Cheryl, I`ll let you talk about Detective Flores, but didn`t you get the sense there during that part when he was talking to her (ph) about the gun, that she was about to tell him something? Or at least concentrating hard not to tell him?
ARUTT: I think a lot of times she was concentrating hard not to tell him, but I`m so glad all the attorneys went first. Thank you so much, attorneys, being the only psychologist person here. I was really, really impressed with how he developed a rapport with Jodi and with her parents and the way that he did the interrogation I thought was incredibly impressive.
I think -- nobody has really mentioned this because his questioning was so good that I think if he were to review his performance and look back on having put out there that the gun was first, that the shooting was first initially, he would have wanted to take that back. So, that`s one thing that I think was a mistake. But the rest, I think was great.
PINSKY: All right. Before I get all of your grades, I`m going to take a grade from a caller. Susan in New Jersey, you`ve got a grade for him?
SUSAN, NEW JERSEY: Hi, Dr. Drew. Yes. I give him an A for staying calm and collective even though, obviously, she was flirting with him.
PINSKY: It really is interesting watching her sort of jump around and manipulate, isn`t it? It`s really something. All right. Let`s go around the horn here and get the grades. Start out with Loni, your grade for Detective Flores?
COOMBS: You know, I had to downgrade him to a B- because of that mistake when he was on the stand testifying about the bullet and when the gunshot came. I thought that was a crucial mistake for the jury. But as far as the interrogation, I thought it was great. So, overall, I gave him a B-.
PINSKY: All right. Marcia, your grade for Detective Flores.
CLARK: I think everybody makes mistakes. I think the point that you have to decide is how do they -- what is the grace that they do the mistake that they admit the mistake with. And if somebody can admit a mistake gracefully like he did, no points lost. I give him an A.
PINSKY: A. There we go. Cheryl, your grade.
ARUTT: I gave him a B- like Loni because of the mistake, but I agree with what Marcia just said.
PINSKY: All right. And Mark, finally, you`re up. Let`s do it.
EIGLARSH: Solid B+. I`ll tell you, one thing that I would have liked to have seen, either bringing a bad cop or act like the bad cop when you`ve got nothing left, when you`re done with her and you`re about to send her off to jail. Let`s just see him go for the jugular once and see how she reacts to that.
PINSKY: Maybe he did. Maybe there`s more tapes to be revealed. We`ll find out as we watch these things unfold. That`s a GPA for this gentleman of a 3.17, he gets a straight B, 3.17, well done, Detective Flores. And I suspect it`s only going to go up from here. There`s a future for you, my friend, in this business.
Next up, my jurors -- thank you panel -- my jurors can`t wait to weigh in on Jodi`s parents who told a cop that Jodi needed help and that she was strange. Back with my jurors after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was vulnerable. Well, he doesn`t call her a few days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she starts to wonder if she`s been used. It was all about sex. And it was someone in personal. Mr. Alexander was distant. Sexual humiliation is where you`re having people do things that they might go along with but lowers their self-esteem. And it can be any kind of thing that`s humiliating or degrading to someone in a sexual way or using sex as a way to control.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for Dr. Drew`s Jury. With me, my co-host -- co-host, I beg your pardon, Mark Eiglarsh. And I got to say, Mark, Laviolette, absolutely accurate for the average abuse manipulation, dysfunctional relationship. Jodi Arias is not your average subject.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s a liar. Her brain doesn`t work right. Everyone`s missing that piece.
EIGLARSH: So, why`s she doing it, Drew, other than the money and I don`t think she`s motivated by that? Why is she really --
PINSKY: I`ll tell you what.
EIGLARSH: Tell me.
PINSKY: Because if you`re not around psychopaths and criminals, you`re not used to evaluating that way. You`re used to evaluating the way you evaluate people who are sort of regular folks that don`t have that problem. I got to go to my jurors, Katie Wick and Stacie Fairrington -- well, that`s right.
Katie, what do you think of these tapes of Jodi`s parents? We`ve been chewing on them all day. What are your thoughts?
KATIE WICK, IN ARIAS COURTROOM: When i saw them, it was incredible, Dr. Drew, because, first of all, those are the real -- those are the only real tears to hit that table in the interrogation room.
WICK: And second of all, Jodi`s mom, I sit behind the family sometimes and that`s not the same woman that I see everyday in the courtroom. And I know a little bit, Dr. Drew, about the stages of grief, and maybe, she hasn`t yet completely lost Jodi and I think maybe she`s in that denial phase right now.
Maybe she goes home at night and cries her eyes out. I don`t know. But it`s very, very telling that they both knew something was wrong with Jodi and who knows in their hard that they wished they would have done something to help.
PINSKY: So, Stacey, we`re still going to picture them (ph) very stoic now. That`s obviously different than we saw on the interrogation tape. Do you agree with that?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, IN ARIAS COURTROOM: Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, she doesn`t resemble even a little bit of the woman that`s in those tapes. And I think those tapes probably are the most honest true emotions coming from her, being, you know, given that evidence they have and kind of them telling, I think that`s really the truth of how she really feels about everything that`s been going on.
PINSKY: Let`s try to get a call for you guys. Kathy in Pennsylvania -- Kathy.
KATHY, PENNSYLVANIA: Good evening, Dr. Drew. I`m calling to tell you I`m a parent of a daughter approximately the same age as Jodi who was diagnosed bipolar 2 (ph) and borderline personality and which I -- what you feel Jodi is diagnosed -- should be diagnosed with. I want people to know what a devastating illness this can be and how hard this can be to treat.
KATHY: -- person wants treatment, there is so little you can do but be supportive. Luckily, my daughter is in treatment and is doing well at the moment. However --
PINSKY: Yes. You`re the person that I have --
KATHY: Do not blame these parents for Jodi. Jodi is an adult. Jodi is an adult. Jodi has refused to get help. I have little empathy for her. But I have total empathy, and my heart breaks for these parents.
PINSKY: If she was at the phase where she was resistant, and you can get conservatorships if people are really a problem, if they`re deemed to be dangerous. But yes, these are difficult, difficult problems and need to be dealt with it before the tragedies ensue. Really a good call.
OK, listen, Katie, Stacey, thank you so much.
Stay with us. Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host (INAUDIBLE) Mark Eiglarsh here with me. Marissa in Pennsylvania, you want to ask our jurors something?
MARISSA, PENNSYLVANIA: Yes. I want to ask the jury. Do you believe that Jodi just knows what nerve to hit with these expert witnesses that she plans and says everything she says to them because she knows that they`re going to be more empathetic if she aims them at their particular nerve?
WICK: Yes. I think Jodi absolutely knows. Yes, absolutely. She knows exactly what to say, exactly what to do. I`m curious to see what book she`s reading in pris -- jail, maybe prison. But one thing I want to mention, Dr. Drew, also is that the defense can put as many expert witnesses they want up on the stand. One can reiterate a lie over and over and over and over or a story. It`s still a lie. It`s not going to change.
WICK: And based on the way the jury was today, they`re done with it.
EIGLARSH: Well, let me ask you that, can you say that conclusively? Do you feel that some jurors might be buying into it, because it looks like she`s a star witness?
PINSKY: Ten seconds, guys. Ten seconds. Go ahead, Stacey.
FAIRRINGTON: You know, I don`t think that they`re buying into it. I mean --
FAIRRINGTON: -- I guess, you always have that one that it might strike a nerve with, but I really don`t think --
PINSKY: There you go. Got to go, guys. Sorry. Mark, thank you. Thank you all for watching. I have to interrupt. It is time to wrap the show up. We`ll see you next time. "HLN After Darks" starts right now.