Return to Transcripts main page


U.S. Law Officers Under Attack; Congresswoman's Gun Magazine Mistake; Fired Rutgers Coach Gets $100K Bonus

Aired April 4, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT tonight, prosecutors murdered a Texas, a prison chief killed in Colorado and a sheriff gunned down and are America's lawmen being targeted?

Plus, North Korea bangs the drums of war, moves a missile in range of an American territory.

And prisoners found to have drugs and weapons in their cells. We'll talk to the man who was in charge of the worst jail in America. Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good evening. I'm Jake Tapper in for Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, the assault on America's law enforcement officers, the execution style killing of a West Virginia sheriff on Wednesday is just the latest in a series of violent attacks on law officers across the country.

In the past two months alone, we've seen two prosecutors gunned down in Texas and a prison chief murdered in Colorado. What's driving this unusual spike in murder? Deb Feyerick is OUTFRONT tonight with the story.


DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The murders are disturbing, five victims, four of them law enforcement officers, all shot in execution style in a little over two-month period. Now hundreds of state and federal investigators are trying to figure out whether the shootings in Colorado, Texas, and West Virginia are somehow connected.

GOVERNOR RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: We're not going to allow the lawlessness of a few to cause us a moment's hesitation in our efforts to make a safer and a more secure Texas.

FEYERICK: Security is tight as those who usually fight crime take measures to avoid becoming victims of it. Terror experts, Maki Haberfeld, tracks these types of killings.

MAKI HABERFELD, CHAIR, DEPARTMENT OF LAW AND POLICE SCIENCE, JOHN JAY COLLEGE: We just do not fear especially in democratic countries. We don't fear law enforcement personnel as we used to as previous generation. FEYERICK: The boldness of the killings is disconcerting. The most recent in West Virginia, Mingo Sheriff Eugene Crum was killed in his squad car while eating lunch. Assistant D.A. Mark Hasse was killed while walking from his car to a Dallas area courthouse. Colorado Prison Chief Tom Clements was killed at home as was the Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLleland and his wife, Cynthia.

MIKE MCLLELAND: You know that there's always the potential for these bad people to do something bad to you because they've already done something bad to somebody else.

FEYERICK: McLelland's warning that he would fight, particularly chilling.

MCLLELAND: We'll still make the walk. And we'll still show up and we'll still send bad guys out of Kaufman County every chance we get. We're not stopping. We're not slowing down. We're still doing our job.

HABERFELD: You don't challenge individuals who are out there motivated by some sort of revenge that law enforcement officers are, you know, the enemy to be killed.

FEYERICK: The reason or reasons for each of the killings remains unclear. In Texas, members of a white supremacist prison gang are being questioned for a possible link. In the Colorado case, a former convict who may have belonged to that gang was fatally wounded by police in Texas. While in West Virginia, a deranged man is currently hospitalized also following a police shootout.


FEYERICK: And, Jake, jut to put this in context, dozens of law enforcement officers are killed every year. According to FBI statistics back in 2011, about 72 officers were killed. Almost one in five were victims of an ambush, but this is -- what is going on right now is any indication then those numbers could go significantly higher -- Jake.

TAPPER: Thanks, Deb. But what about copycats, how big a concern is that?

FEYERICK: That is a really big issue. One of the things that they're all looking at, all the investigators are looking at is could this be a copycat? Could this be a revenge killing? Could Christopher Dorner, the former L.A. police officer who went crazy and started killing members of the LAPD who he thought had wronged them, is this a trigger?

Was that a motivator in all of this? Some say, yes, in fact, it was. They saw the phenomenal way he went out in a blaze or flame of glory. Others say well, no, because the first killing was done in January. Dorner didn't come along until just a little bit later.

So that's one of the things they're looking at. That's why it's so scary. If they can trace this to a gang nexus, they'll be in a much better position to go after members who may have belonged to this Arian gang who have been paroled. At least that gives them something to wrap their arms around.

TAPPER: All right, thank you. I want to bring in now a former FBI agent, Jeff Lanza. He spent 20 years in the bureau. He is OUTFRONT tonight. Jeff, what do you make of this violent murders that we've seen, are criminals getting bolder or is there something else going on here?

JEFF LANZA, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, it sure seems that way. This is really unprecedented. As was mentioned in the report about one a week is the occurrence of police officers getting killed as a direct result of adversarial action. A small percentage of that involves ambush killings.

That's what these were. And now we've seen attacks not only against law enforcement, but all three components of the criminal justice system. We have the courts. We have corrections and we have law enforcement, unprecedented.

And what's so ironic about this, if the theory behind these attacks is that they're trying to intimidate law enforcement, the courts, corrections, into subjugating themselves to not going after these drug cartels or these drug groups, it's going to have the opposite effect.

TAPPER: Well, we all know law enforcement is a dangerous job, but since January, according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, 28 officers have been killed in the United States, 13 of them by guns. That is up 17 percent from 2012. So I guess the big question is, if these criminals are this bold to go after law enforcement, is there anything really that would deter them from any sort of crime?

LANZA: Yes. Well, what those numbers indicate is a rise, absolutely. But again, most of those attacks on law enforcement officers have been the result of a fugitive chase, a pullover of a car, an arrest situation. They're not ambush attacks.

If these situations are connected and some of them may be, it's an indication that the criminals in these cases have been more brazen. Now are they targeting -- would that mean they're going to target members of the population?

It doesn't sound that way. It looks like they're going after prosecutors in order to intimidate them into not going after their cases. As I said earlier, it's going to have the opposite effect. It doesn't make any sense in the long run.

TAPPER: Lastly, Jeff, in Texas, the two prosecutors shot there were known to carry guns. Still, they did not survive with their lives. How do law enforcement officers whether they are corrections officers or prosecutors or sheriffs, how do they guard against this kind of thing happening? These gentlemen had guns.

LANZA: You can't. It's not like in the movies where someone attacks you and you respond and you shoot the attacker. You know, the sad part of this situation is reaction is always behind action.

So if someone has a drop on you, if they're targeting you, I don't care how many guns you have. If they come up behind you, it's not like the old west where you challenge somebody to a gun fight. You come up and shoot somebody and that's what happened in these cases. There is very little can you do to stay 100 percent safe against something like that.

TAPPER: All right, former FBI Agent Jeff Lanza, thank you so much.

Still to come, a prominent gun control advocate seeming to not know much about guns at all, is this the reason President Obama seems to be losing ground to the NRA?

Plus, the Rutgers basketball scandal widens. An assistant basketball coach resigned his position today.

More posturing by North Korea, it moves a missile in range of an American territory.

Plus, inmates spotted doing drugs and brandishing a gun. We hear from the man who is charge of what some call the worst jail in America.


TAPPER: Our second story, OUTFRONT, a high capacity mix-up. Gun control advocate and Democratic Congresswoman Diana Degette is being ridiculed for saying this about high capacity magazines.


REPRESENTATIVE DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: These are ammunition, they're bullets. So the people who have those now, they're going to shoot them. And so if you ban them in the future, the number of these high capacity magazines is going to decrease dramatically over time because the bullets will have been shot and there won't be any more available.


TAPPER: OK, well, here's the problem, magazines can be reloaded. The congresswoman's office then released a statement saying, Degette, quote, "simply misspoke and referring to magazines when she should have been referred to clips, which cannot be reused because they don't have a feeding mechanism."

But actually, clips in most guns can be reused as well. The NRA jumped on to Degette saying, quote, "Two words, pretty stupid." So how much do Degette's remarks hurt the cause for gun control?

OUTFRONT tonight, Michael Medved, conservative commentator for Salem Radio and Charles Blow, CNN contributor and op-ed columnist for the "New York Times." Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for slumming even though I'm not Erin. Michael, you say this destroys her credibility on this issue. Can she recover?

MICHAEL MEDVED, SALEM RADIO: Sure. If we -- we don't have enough time to talk about some stupid thing that some congressman is saying every single day. The point is not that this destroys her credibility. It just helps the loss of momentum that is already there.

I think the loss of momentum has to do with the fact that the people that are pushing and pushing and pushing the new regulations really have no idea what they're talking about in terms of actually making the situation better.

I don't think most Americans believe that limiting the number of bullets that you can have high capacity magazines or clips or banning certain types of weapons or changing registration procedures are going to end the dangers of gun violence in this country or even significantly reduce them.

After all, it didn't work that way before when we had an assault weapon ban for ten years and murders actually were not decreased more with assault weapons than with any other form of weapons.

TAPPER: Well, it certainly wouldn't end gun violence, but according to polls, Michael, a majority of Americans do support a ban on large capacity clips. A recent poll found 56 percent of voters supporting the ban on the sale of high capacity magazines holding more than 10 rounds.

I take your point on gun control advocates needing to know what they're talking about and on that subject, I want to bring Charles. Because Charles last night in San Francisco, President Obama had a similar kind of slip, he said, quote, "It's possible for us to create common sense gun safety measures that respect the tradition of gun ownership in this country and hunters and sportsman. But also make sure we don't have another 20 children in a classroom gunned down by a semi-automatic weapon, by a fully automatic weapon in that case, sadly."

Well, he had it right the first time. The gun that was used in Sandy Hook was a semiautomatic weapon, not a fully automatic weapon. Most fully automatic weapons are banned to the public. Don't you think as somebody who has advocated for gun control that the people who go forward and make these arguments need to know basic information.

In order to be credible not with the voters in New York City, but with people in Colorado and swing voters in Virginia and the middle ground individuals who they're trying to convince? Wouldn't it help the case? Wouldn't you concede that point?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think that gaffes definitely hurt. I think that, you know, whoever makes a gaffe in whatever political context the opponents are going to jump all over it and rightfully so. I think the bigger point that you kind of eluded to before which is that most Americans actually do believe that high capacity clips should be banned.

And that has not actually eroded. Fox News produced a poll on March 22nd that basically said that there was no kind of statistically significant drop in the percentage of people who supported, you know, banning high capacity clips.

So I think as we push back from that and say, yes, people make gaffes and whether or not that is a true reflection of how much they understand about a subject, we don't know. But we can say that most people do want to ban high capacity clips. I think that's just a fact.

TAPPER: Michael, you wanted to jump in, go ahead.

MEDVED: Yes, I would just say it's a very low priority for most people for a very simple reason. It's very difficult to unexplain how banning high capacity magazines is going to somehow lead to some kind of decrease in horrifying incidents that we all would like to end.

think the American people, frankly, are increasingly board and annoyed by this whole issue. We have real problems in this country. We do not have a crisis and upsurge of gun violence. We've had decreases in gun violence. Two-thirds of all gun deaths are suicides. And you know what? Very few of those suicides benefit from high capacity magazines.

BLOW: Here's where you're wrong. I think you're right on this point, which is that every person in this country wants to see fewer human beings in America being shot by these magazines. And every human being wants to make sure they're safe from people who might shoot them.

Limiting high capacity magazines can do is to give people a few seconds, which can mean the difference between life and death in a shooting like, you know, the school or like a movie theatre. Where if the person has to either change weapons or change clips, it buys you a few seconds.

And in a shooting, that's real. That can be the difference between life and death. I think that what we want to do is to try to limit carnage. If we can try to limit carnage as best we can and give people who might be the victims a chance to live another day, then we should try to do that. That's the only point that is important here.

TAPPER: I need to break in. I'll give you guys each other's e- mail addresses and you can continue this. My friends, Charles Blow and Michael Medved, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Still to come, the Facebook phone, it's been a rumor for years. We tell what Mark Zuckerberg announced today.

And the Rutgers basketball scandal continues to grow. Why the now fired coach is walking away with a six figure check.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: Our third story, OUTFRONT, the Rutgers basketball scandal is growing. The assistant coach, Jimmy Marteli has resigned in the wake of Head Coach Mike Rice being fired. This comes on the same day we hear that the disgraced Head Coach Mike Rice is receiving a $100,000 bonus as part of his severance package.

Rice lost his job on Wednesday after video surfaced showing him berating, shoving and throwing basketballs at his players during practice along with some anti-gay slurs. CNN's Pam Brown is OUTFRONT tonight with the story.


PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was fired for this -- punching, grabbing and kicking his players. But Mike Rice whose annual salary was just increased to $750,000, also will get a $100,000 bonus for staying with Rutgers through the end of this season.

Had he been fired when university officials found out about this video, he wouldn't have gotten the bonus. Amid calls for the dismissal of the athletic director, some Rutgers faculty members are so fired up, they're calling for the university president to step down.

BELINDA EDMONDSON, DIRECTOR OF WOMEN'S AND GENDER STUDIES: We're a great university, but I think our president does not -- he does not uphold our values as a university.

BROWN: The investigation into Rice's behavior began as the university was vying for membership in the big ten.

EDMONDSON: I don't see how we can stand in front of our students and say that we do this research. But when it comes to big ten money and when it comes to sports and getting into the big ten, that all those things go out the window and call people the filthiest and most homophobic words and that is OK because this is about sports, sports is not separate from education.

BROWN: Now the focus is on who at the university knew what and when. In an interview Tuesday, Athletic Director Tim Pernetti said this.

TIM PERNETTI, RUTGETS DIRECTOR OF INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS: I was aware of the tape when I handed down the suspension at the end of December.

MIKE FRANCESA, WFAN RADIO HOST: Did your president see this tape?


BROWN: But in a statement released yesterday, Barchi said he watched the video for the first time Tuesday. Our attempts to reach Pernetti and Barchi at the university were unsuccessful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No ma'am, not today.

BROWN: As the fallout grows, some of Rice's former players are saying the video is not what it seems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of the times on the film when jacking up a player, he was really joking.


TAPPER: And my friend, Pam Brown, joins me now. Pam, good to see you. So here's the first question I have for you.

BROWN: Good to see you.

TAPPER: Is this something that is going to end up in court you think?

BROWN: Well, it certainly possible here, Jake. You have to remember Mike Rice was under contract. He was expected to get $750,000 this year. The university tells us they're working out a severance plan for Rice.

But Rice is a public employee as an employee of Rutgers University. And because of that, he is afforded more protections than he would have in a private company. So if they can't work out a deal, we can certainly see this end up in court -- Jake.

TAPPER: And are any of the players, the students, are any of them talking about any sort of legal action?

BROWN: That's a good question. The legal analyst we spoke to said that it's actually unlikely that the players that we saw in the video would be able to make a case against Rice and against the university because as of now, we haven't seen any evidence of physical injury as a result of the alleged abuse that we saw in that video -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, my friend, Pam Brown, thank you so much.

Still to come, should America hit North Korea before they hit us? Congressman Peter King comes OUTFRONT.

Plus, shocking video of prisoners doing drugs and brandishing a gun in their cells, the man who was in charge of that jail speaks out.

And new developments in the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial, Sharon Osborne tells the court who she thinks is responsible.


TAPPER: Welcome back to the second half of OUTFRONT. I'm Jake Tapper filling in for Erin Burnett.

We start the second half of our show with stories that we care about where we focus on our own reporting from the front lines. Sad news in the world of film, after a lengthy battle with cancer, legendary critic Roger Ebert has died at the age of 70. Ebert began his career at the "Chicago Sun Times" in 1967.

Since then, he has reviewed thousands of films, winning accolades and a Pulitzer Prize on the way. In addition to his columns, he is also the author of a number of best-selling books and the screen play for the classic "Beyond The Valley of The Dolls."

However, he's probably best remembered for hosting the very popular television program "At The Movies" for more than two decades, first with Jean Cisco who died in 1999 and then Richard Roper. Robert Ebert is survived by his wife of more than 20 years. And we wish her our condolences.

As world powers prep for a meeting on Iran tomorrow, a new report recommends the Obama administration take a series of steps to deal with Iran's nuclear threat. The nonpartisan think tank the Atlantic Council suggests that United States enter bilateral talks with Iran and loosen sanctions to strengthen ties with the people of Iran.

But Kenneth Katzman of the Congressional Research service tells OUTFRONT the report places fault on the Obama administration instead of where he says it properly belongs -- quote -- "in the personality, paranoia and excessive suspicions of Iran's supreme leader."

A new witness tonight in the Michael Jackson wrongful death lawsuit, TV star Sharon Osbourne. She landed on the witness list after revealing her show -- on her show "The Talk" that there were people at AEG Live who knew Jackson was -- quote -- "not well and didn't care because it was business."

USC law professor Jody Armour tells us Osbourne's testimony will strongly bolster the family's claim that AEG is liable for the singer's death. AEG's lawyers meanwhile argue that it was not them, but Jackson who hired and supervised Dr. Conrad Murray, the physician who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter for giving Jackson lethal doses of propofol.

There have long been rumors of a Facebook phone. But it didn't happen today. Instead, Mark Zuckerberg delivered a new phone interface called Facebook Home. It integrates all of the social network services into the Android operating system.

Steven Levy of "Wired" tells Zuckerberg's choice to Facebookize a phone instead of building his own was smart since the interface will reach more people.

It's been 609 days since the U.S. lost its top credit rating. But what are we doing to get it back? Stocks rose today despite a higher-than-anticipated rise in jobless claims. Tomorrow, the government's monthly jobs report is out which Wall Street surely react to.

Our fourth story OUTFRONT, brink of war. New signs that North Korea maybe be gearing up for a missile launch soon. U.S. officials tell CNN that missile and launch components have been moved to the east coast of North Korea over the last few days and the Pentagon now says it's working to turn the volume down while shoring up its defenses in the region.

Kyung Lah is in Seoul tonight.

Kyung, this is the time of day we typically see some news out of North Korea. It's morning there. You're just waking up. What's the mood there today?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There hasn't been any specific news out of North Korea. I can tell that you that there isn't any particular massive shift that we're seeing in South Korean sentiment, although we are seeing an incremental change in the tone here.

And part of it is as the Pentagon is now expressing concern that the U.S. may be part of the problem. One of the major newspapers here in South Korea said that perhaps the show of force by the United States is having the effect of cornering a crazy rat, that rat reference, of course, being Kim Jong-un.

So there is this concern among a minority of South Koreans that the U.S. now may be part of the problem. Certainly this news, Jake, out of the Pentagon may at least be appreciated by some here, although overwhelmingly most people are appreciating that show of force.

TAPPER: Some officials in the State Department and Pentagon are talking about the need for the U.S. to dial back the rhetoric a bit. Is that something that's making a difference or is even being noticed over there?

LAH: Yes, not yet. Yesterday, the defense secretary -- yesterday Korea time, the defense secretary in a parliamentary defense committee, he said that should there be any sort of concrete evidence that North Korea is getting ready to launch a nuclear attack, South Korea will not rule out the possibility of a preemptive strike.

That's really a more specific reference to the go-ahead that the president here gave to the military to go ahead and strike back if they believe that they have been struck here in South Korea. So, that edge, that line, again, getting thinner and thinner here between the Koreas.

LAH: All right, Kyung Lah, thank you so much.

Tom Foreman is in the virtual studio.

Tom, this missile that North Korea has moved to its east coast, what kind of missile are we talking about? And what is the range?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jake, this is the type of missile that we're talking about. It is called the Musudan.

It can trace its development back to a Russian submarine missile from some time back. The Iranians also have a version of it called the Shahab. As you can, it's very simple, no fins. There is no guidance system on it. And yet it's effective. This is one of the reasons why. When you see it in parades in North Korea time and again, you see it this way, on the back of a truck. It is a highly mobile missile system. Once it is fueled up, it can be moved around fairly quickly and set up and fired within a matter of minutes from any location. That's one of the things that makes it dangerous.

Plus, it can pack quite a wallop. Let's look at the range of this thing. Carrying a two-and-a-half ton payload which can be a warhead of just that size if you have two stages on it, which makes it a little bit more unreliable, it can travel out 2,500 miles. Does that mean it can reach California? No. Can it reach Alaska? Maybe a tiny part of the Aleutian chain.

Reach it reach Hawaii? No, but it certainly can reach South Korea. It could certainly reach Japan and, of course, it could reach all the way down here to Guam if the shot went well. And Guam really matters, more than 5,000 service members there, along with the local population and an important, important bomber base for the U.S. military -- Jake.

TAPPER: Tom Foreman, thank you so much.

And joining me now is the governor of Guam, Republican Eddie Calvo.

Governor, thank you for joining me.

The North Korea government consistently threatened your territory. How seriously are these threats taken at this point?

GOV. EDDIE CALVO (R), GUAM: Yes, good morning from Guam.

And good evening to you folks there, Jake.

Now, obviously, we have gotten assurances from the Defense Department and Homeland Security in regards to the safety measures. But there is concern from our -- this administration, as well as people of Guam. If you were to take a look at a map, Korea, the Korean Peninsula is about three hours' flying time from Guam.

And it's about halfway the distance it is from Guam to Hawaii. So we are bucking the Asian land mass. So, obviously, when you have a authoritarian dictator like Mr. Kim and some of the bellicose statements that he's been making and the activities of his government and their military, it causes a lot of concern in this American community here in Guam and the Marianas.

TAPPER: So, Governor Calvo, you have been told, I'm sure, that U.S. missile defense systems, the ones that are in place right now, will protect Guam.

Are you confident that they will protect you 100 percent from any threat?

CALVO: There is a defensive umbrella that has been set up from the Korean Peninsula all the way to the Western Pacific. And, of course, you have heard recently about the THAAD system. That will be deployed to Guam. But the concern we have is all you need is that one lucky shot. And that one lucky shot from a North Korean missile could do a lot of damage to our island home.

A little history for Guam, by the way. The Mariana islands and Guam are the only American soil in this part the international dateline. It's Friday. We are the only American territory, organized community that has been invaded and occupied by foreign forces since the War of 1812. That occurred in 1941.

And so there is first-person and secondhand accounts of what happens when America lets down in their vigilance and American land and American people are not protected. So we are deeply concerned.

TAPPER: Lastly, Mr. Governor, there are reports of people in Guam stocking canned goods, keeping windows closed, all in preparation for a possible attack. Is that what you're hearing as well? Are those measures that everyone in Guam should be taking, or is this just anecdotes?

CALVO: That may be just anecdotes.

We do know that in Guam, because we are in Typhoon Alley, we have a population and we have a fairly experienced homeland security and civil defense agencies that deals with emergencies such as typhoons. So, with that, there are folks that may be taking precautions that you would take as a result of a typhoon scare.

But, aside from that, I do not believe and I have not heard of any evidence of some sort of panic from the community in which they would be storing items for impending attack.

TAPPER: All right.

Guam Governor Eddie Calvo, thank you so much for speaking with us this evening where I am and this morning where you are.

The question some have asked, should the U.S. strike North Korea first? Republican Congressman Peter King made national headlines earlier this week when he told Erin that the U.S. should not necessarily wait.


REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: If we have good reason to believe there is going to be an attack, I believe we have the right to take preemptive action to protect ourselves. I don't think we have to wait until Americans are killed or wounded or injured in any way.


TAPPER: Congressman Peter King joins us here again tonight.

Congressman King, since you made those comments, we have learned that U.S. intelligence has seen missile and launch components moved to the East Coast of North Korea, movements consistent with that of a specific type of missile that has an estimated 2,500-mile range. That means it could probably hit our allies and our troops in South Korea and/or Japan and possibly even the U.S. territory of Guam.

So, in your view, is now the time for a preemptive strike?


I will leave that to the president and his commander in chief. And, again, from my perspective, I don't see that as being an imminent threat. It certainly requires us to be even more alert than we have been up until now. But I would not put that in the category of being an imminent threat.

Again, the administration will have to look at the totality of evidence it has and any kind of intercepts we have, any type of diplomatic tips that we receive, information we receive and if there is actually an overt movement of troops. But, no, based on this, I consider this still part of the North Korean posturing.

But, having said that, we have to assume the worst. But as far as a preemptive attack, no. What I was saying about a preemptive attack, which I still stand by this, that was basically international law. If someone is aiming a gun at you, you don't have to wait until they pull the trigger before can you defend yourself.

TAPPER: Earlier today on my show, "THE LEAD," I spoke with former Governor and former U.N. Ambassador Bill Richardson. He's been to North Korea several time. He drew a line of sorts against North Korea. Take a listen.


BILL RICHARDSON (D), FORMER NEW MEXICO GOVERNOR: Despite the ratcheting up and the threats and the activity, they really haven't done much. If they shoot this missile, this is very serious.


TAPPER: At what point in your view is it the right time for a preemptive strike? You heard secretary -- I'm sorry, former Ambassador Richardson saying that firing a missile would be very serious. Would that be enough, you think?

KING: Again, I have a lot of regard for Bill Richardson as far as his ability.

On this, again, everything has to be looked at. I'm not here to be declaring war on North Korea. That's for the president. I'm sure the president will take all this into account, what type of rocket, where it's going, what we think the purpose is. If they're just firing it out into the ocean, then obviously it's a different story.

And so, no, I don't think there is anything right now indicating that we should be going to war. We have to be ready for war. We have to assume the worst. I think the administration by moving the defense systems, by positioning them in Guam, I think it's a very good step. I think the use of B-52s or B-2s or F-22s, all of that good.

I think the administration should also, and this has to be carefully calibrated, I think they should certainly consider designating North Korea once again as a state supporter of terrorism. I think that again could increase our financial hold on them and it could also send a strong signal. I don't want to be the armchair general here saying what to do, but I also want the administration to know that if they do take action, I think it will receive strong bipartisan support, because I don't think they would take it unless they feel it's absolutely necessary.

TAPPER: A defense Department official earlier today told CNN -- quote -- "We accused the North Koreans of amping things up. Now we're worried we did the same thing."

Are you concerned at all that there have been some in the U.S. who have used rhetoric against North Korea that made things worse, that exacerbated an already tense situation?


I think that something that had to be done. I think that what could be worse would be -- or what would have been worse is if we had not responded the way we did, because that would have sent disquieting signals to South Korea, to Japan, to other countries in the area. It could have encouraged North Korea.

I think it's important for North Korea to realize they if they do take any action, it will be met with devastating results. And it's important for South Korea, particularly the new government, under President Park, to realize that we are standing with them. And also if we don't show that we're willing to take strong action, then you could have countries such as Japan and Taiwan and South Korea pursuing their own nuclear weapons delivery systems.

So, no, I think that we did exactly the right thing. And, as I said, I think we should even consider increasing it by redesignating North Korea as a state sponsor of terrorism.

TAPPER: Still to come, shocking video of prisoners doing drugs and brandishing a gun. We hear from the man who is responsible for what some call America's worst jail.

And an exclusive look at one of the most popular and coolest television shows. I give you a tour of the "Mad Men" set later in the show.


TAPPER: We're back with tonight's "Outer Circle," where we reach out to our sources around the world.

Tonight, we go to China for a strain of bird flu that has not been detected in humans before. It has authorities scrambling to find the source of the infections. China's state-run news agency reports 14 cases of bird flue have been detected. Five people have died David McKenzie is in Beijing with the latest on the investigation into the outbreak.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're calling this H7N9. It's a new strain of bird flu that they believe is linked to poultry, but not at a place like this in Beijing which has health codes that are quite strict.

They don't know yet whether it's human-to-human transmitted. They believe it isn't, but with the numbers rising in several parts of Southeast China, there is a worry this could expand into an outbreak. And there is distrust among Chinese of government's response.

TAPPER: Now let's check in my friend Anderson Cooper with a look at what is ahead on "A.C. 360."

Coop, what do you got coming?


Yes, we have got a lot more on the reality of what North Korea can and cannot do as the country cranks up pressure on the U.S. and its allies, this time by repositioning missiles. You have been reporting about this, Jake.

We're also going to look inside the mind of a possibly unstable dictator ahead on 360. I'm also joined by chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour and former Bush homeland security adviser Fran Townsend.

And tonight, my exclusive conversation with the wife of children of Colorado prisons director Tom Clements, a dedicated public servant murdered on his doorstep, shot dead by a parolee.

Tonight, we focus not on the killer. We're not even to mention his name. It's been discussed too much. We're going to focus on the man who was a dedicated public servant, a husband, a father, about that man, Tom Clements, what his family wants you to know. It's their first interview since his death. And I will speak with Lisa Clements and her daughters, Rachel and Sara.

They are determined to remember how Tom Clements lived his life, not how he lost it, and to honor his belief in the possibility of redemption and forgiveness. Those stories, a lot more, Jake, at the top of the hour.

TAPPER: Thanks, Anderson.

There was a great column by Frank Bruni, who ran into that gentleman and had a chance to talk to him about prison reform. It looks like a great show. I look forward to it.

COOPER: Yes. It's amazing. He really tried to focus on limiting solitary confinement. He really believed that prisoners could redeem themselves and could start new lives. And so his family wanted to talk about that as well tonight. TAPPER: That's great. That's special. That sounds great. I will be watching definitely. Thank you so much.

Our fifth story OUTFRONT, the worst jail in the United States. That's what one expert calls the New Orleans jail where this video was filmed. Inmates out of control, several of them waving around a gun in their cell, doing drugs, drinking booze.

Tonight, the New Orleans sheriff who's in charge of this jail is speaking out and insisting he's in no way responsible.

Sara Ganim is OUTFRONT.


SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You have seen the shocking video. Now hear about it from an inmate who experienced it himself.

JAIME HERNANDEZ, FORMER INMATE: I was stabbed in my face above my right eye two months in there. Nobody helped me.

GANIM: This is Sheriff Marlin Gusman, the man responsible for the Orleans Parish prisons when this astonishing video was shot. He's at the center of a lawsuit over the condition of jails in Orleans Parish.

MARLIN GUSMAN, ORLEANS PARISH SHERIFF: What we saw on that video occurred four years ago in a building closed over a year ago.

GANIM: Former inmates with the help of the Justice Department and Southern Poverty Law Center sued Sheriff Gusman last year over the conditions and lack of supervision, like this inmate walking around with a loaded gun, shooting up heroin.

HERNANDEZ: I witnessed drugs, I witnessed fights, I witnessed sexual assaults.

GANIM: Gusman testified in federal court Thursday and denies he's lost control.

GUSMAN: The actions taken in that video are unacceptable and despicable. We charged the individuals who escaped.

GANIM: Contrary to what this video shows, Gusman says guards regularly do shakedowns for drugs. Weapons and beatings aren't tolerated.

GUSMAN: The video quality looks like it's been greatly changed up. I don't know. I don't know what to say about that.

GANIM: But here's a twist. Back in December, Gusman signed a consent decree with the Justice Department that acknowledges all of these problems and outlines ways to fix them.

Here it is, Marlin Gusman's signature. So why did he sign it if he testified the allegations are not true? Gusman told the court he signed it because he thought it would help restore public confidence in his jails, but the exchange only raises more questions.

The New Orleans mayor has now joined the legal fight. He wants the sheriff out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's clear that the entire management practices over at the Orleans Parish prison have just been terrible and they have broken down and they have fallen down.

GANIM: The sheriff blames a lot of the problems on Hurricane Katrina and lack of funding from the city.

GUSMAN: What has not yet changed is the need for proper funding.

GANIM (on camera): Now, that video might be a few years old, but the dysfunction clearly continues. In court, city officials said six prisoners have escaped in the last six months. The sheriff is hoping things will get better when a new facility with modern technology is built. That's expected by 2014.

City officials, they are hoping a judge will remove the sheriff before that -- Jake.


TAPPER: Coming up next, pour a highball, light a smoke. We have a behind-the-scenes look at "Mad Men."




TAPPER (voice-over): It's been a long ten months since we left Don Draper at the bar. But this Sunday, millions will return to the offices of Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce for the season's sixth premiere of "Mad Men" on AMC. The series creator, Matthew Weiner, invited us to come early.

(on camera): So this is going to be the second to the last season.


TAPPER: It's going well? There doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to end it any time soon, for me, anyway.

WEINER: I feel like, you know, first of all it's exhausting. I need a break. But the reality of it is that the show has a lifespan. It is mortal. You really want to end it before you have exceeded the ability to tell the story.

TAPPER (voice-over): Heavy drinking, heavy petting and heavy drama have kept viewers tuned in to a bygone era of boys clubs. UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: OK, girls. Come on in.

TAPPER (on camera): How worried or concerned or aware are you when you're writing for your women characters about them not just being Joan and Megan and Peggy, but them being symbolic of women in general?

WEINER: That is a really good question. I don't want the characters to ever be symbolic in general. Did women have it harder? Yes. Were there women pioneers? Yes. Were there exceptions to every rule? Yes.

How did someone succeed in that world? I think the show resonates because things are not that different. I don't want to give a history lesson. I want people to know that these people could be their mothers.

TAPPER (voice-over): But the dark heart of "Mad Men" is mysterious, womanizing ad man Don Draper.

(on camera): Is he alone? Is Don Draper alone? Is this what the show is about?

WEINER: I think it's a big part of his life, yes. And the ambiguity of that statement after we've seen this man having found love and seeming less alone, I think, you know, there is an existential quality to him as a hero.

TAPPER: I don't need to know how Don Draper dies, but if the show is about this existential question, am I alone, can I ever be happy, those questions, there needs to be a hint at the end about...

WEINER: I am going to try to use the machinery of my show to give a satisfying ending.



WEINER: I promise.

TAPPER: I have just devoted a lot of time to this.

WEINER: The idea that people wouldn't like it would bother me.


WEINER: If people had their way the first season Joan and Peggy would be living together. Joan would have given Peggy a makeover. They'd be best friends and you'd be bored. Leave them wanting more.

TAPPER (voice-over): This Sunday the "Mad Men" premiere is two hours long. Weiner calls it a movie to wet the fans' appetites.

WEINER: There is a sense that someone like Don and seeing the world through Don's eyes who is now 40 is going to become out of touch and is really the story for all of the characters all sort of moving toward some kind of hopefully reconciliation with who they are. But there is quite a fire to watch.

TAPPER (on camera): I can't wait.

WEINER: Does that sound juicy?


TAPPER: "A.C. 360" starts right now.