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Epic Fight in Arias Courtroom
Aired April 8, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Jodi Arias trial, day 43.
Wrestle mania. (INAUDIBLE) of WWE.
WITNESS: You`re implying that I think that I`m lying about what I do.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You misrepresented the fact that you were the keynote speaker.
PINSKY: Plus, Jodi`s childhood friend, she`s known Jodi forever, and she`s here. She`s got her own wacky Jodi story. Even she can`t believe it.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host this week, forensic and clinical psychologist, Cheryl Arutt.
The perfect week for you with all of that conversation is a forensic psychologist.
Also, we have a breaking story tonight. We`re going to speak to someone who saw the defense witness speak to Travis` sisters. Our witness to this event then ran to the family and said you need to tell the prosecution. And they have done so. We will bring that to you later in the show.
Joining Cheryl and myself, attorney at speaktomark.com, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney Lauren Lake and the woman we like to call the human lie detector, Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me".
So, Jodi`s domestic violence lady has become more colorful on the stand, guys, right? This is all courtesy of prosecutor Juan Martinez. Take a look at this and then we`ll get into it.
MARTINEZ: In this case, we are left, if you will, to follow this roadmap that you gave us that is in a sense a roadmap, right?
WITNESS: It`s a guideline.
MARTINEZ: It`s a guideline, which means that we can look at it to guide us to a goal.
WITNESS: It is a guideline. It is not a specific road map that will take you from here to here.
MARTINEZ: I left the roadmap behind, I used the word guideline. Isn`t this a guideline that you used?
WITNESS: It is a guideline.
MARTINEZ: And this is a guide line that you created, right?
DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is a fairy tale to assume that this jury is not hearing any of this.
MARTINEZ: Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is a fairy tale by the Brothers Grim, right?
I`m not using the Brothers Grim version. I`m using the Walt Disney cartoon. I just want to make that clear.
MARTINEZ: Yes, or no?
MARTINEZ: Judge, if you instruct the witness to answer please.
When you first testified, exhibit 558 and Ms. Willmott was asking you questions, it was placed underneath this machine here and it was broadcast for everybody to see it in the courtroom, yes or no?
WITNESS: That`s true.
And also looking at aggression that happens in otherwise healthy families that don`t have patterns of domestic violence.
MARTINEZ: Are you done?
WITNESS: Yes, I am.
MARTINEZ: You seem to indicate was that you really don`t need to use exhibit 558 when you`re reaching your assessment, right?
WITNESS: It`s a frame of mind. I don`t know if they were texts or IMs. I get them mixed up. But it was written material that involved conversation between Mr. Alexander and ShaTonya Lay (ph).
MARTINEZ: What date?
WITNESS: What date?
MARTINEZ: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exhibit 598 as admitted is redacted.
MARTINEZ: Let`s take a look at exhibit 598. That would mean that you were 90 percent wrong. Because there was no -- you weren`t able to look at the nonverbal communication, were you?
WITNESS: That`s quite an extrapolation.
MARTINEZ: Ultimately, what you`re saying is that you are a human lie detector, right?
WITNESS: Gosh, I didn`t think I was saying that.
PINSKY: OK. The "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas is covering the trial.
Beth, your take on the battle in court today. Tell us. Bring us up to speed.
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Martinez toned it down a little bit from last Thursday. He came out swinging last Thursday with the whole Snow White thing and really battling her. Both of them were a little calmer. They sparred a lot. But it was a lot easier to understand. And he really did make a lot of good points on cross examination. He`s not finished, either.
PINSKY: Give me a couple of them. What specifically?
KARAS: Well, he got her to concede that she took Jodi Arias at her word. And he brought, he gave her an example of Jodi saying that, in her testimony, that with a prior boyfriend, Matt McCartney, she found out he was cheating on her with Bianca (ph) because two women came into the restaurant where she was working and told her about it. Well, Alyce LaViolette didn`t know that. But Jodi told LaViolette that she learned Travis was cheating on her with Lisa Andrews, because a woman came into the restaurant where she was working in Mesa, a different restaurant, and told her that. These are two very similar stories.
PINSKY: Or not. Yes, right. Yes.
KARAS: Because she`s stalking and she learns, and also she didn`t know the name of the person. And Travis was accusing her of lying in text messages. And, you know, she only went through the tenure of text messages and you can misinterpret text messages and the tone of them. Certainly not the word you said she did call her names. There`s no question about that. So that was one point.
And there was another point where she said all these different women in Travis` life, in the weeks before he died, he was communicating. She looked at text messages. She just took certain words of theirs as true. But when Travis said I have a stalker and I`m afraid of her, she didn`t believe it.
PINSKY: Beth, thank you so much -- because that is exactly where the rubber hits the road on this whole thing. We`re believing a liar.
By the way, Cheryl, she only lies after she kills somebody, mind you. That was established in court. LaViolette says no pattern of lying until she murders. And then there`s a pattern of lying.
CHERYL ARUTT, CO-HOST: Let`s limit it at least, right?
PINSKY: Well, and, by the way, when you look at the tapes of the parents complaining about their daughter`s behavior, they`re complaining about the lying and deception. That`s what they`re complaining about. There is overwhelming evidence of a lifetime of this kind of behavior.
I want to go to Janine and ask her thoughts on this domestic, these comments about nonverbal communication. Cheryl, I believe, I think certainly put a lot of emphasis on emotional communication. Wouldn`t you?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: You know what? This is the deal, Dr. Drew. Many people don`t know what they`re talking about when it comes to body language will say 93 percent or 90 percent of communication is nonverbal. It`s not true.
Imagine if your son writes you a letter and says, dear mom or dad, you`re the worst person in the world.
Are you going to look at them and say, I only 7 percent believe you because 93 percent of what communicated is nonverbal.
PINSKY: No, Janine. It`s more like, I didn`t fully, I only 10 percent understood what you were saying, 90 percent didn`t come through. I couldn`t see your body.
Well, Mark --
DRIVER: Here`s the deal, Dr. Drew. You have to get someone`s baseline changes, it`s a hot spot. But we don`t know what the catalyst is. And I think that`s where LaViolette is making the big problem. She`s mind reading and on the side of Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: Right. Mark, now last week, my producers tell me they heard you yelling at the feed while you were watching the courtroom proceedings. We -- I tried to find footage of it by the way, but since you weren`t wearing that nice green tie last week I didn`t want to embarrass you.
But is Juan Martinez heeding your guidance on the cross examination?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, in some respects, yes. And most not.
I agree with Beth, he did tone it down, thank God. So, I wasn`t yelling at the screen today. But what he doesn`t realize is that this woman, this defense expert, is never going to admit that she ordered the code red. It only happens in television and movies.
In other words, she`s never going to admit that he wasn`t an abuser. That is her opinion. She`s going to go down swinging and she`s never going to change.
So, what you do is you effectively, as he was doing, but he mixed it in with 25 or 50 questions that really I wouldn`t have asked and most wouldn`t. They`re just winging it off the top. He just needs to focus on those questions that are effective that show that she`s lying and thus you can`t rely upon what Jodi`s saying to her, one after the next.
PINSKY: Got it.
EIGLARSH: Carefully craft the questions. He`s not doing that, and it frustrates me.
PINSKY: Lauren, your reaction.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: I have to piggyback off of mark a little bit. What I find that he`s doing is he`s attacking her even though his tone is a little bit better today. But he`s backing her in the question so much, his leading question, she`s not answering yes or no. She`s getting a chance to explain herself.
And sometimes, she may reiterate things that may resonate with the jury. And I think he needs to stop asking so many questions. Ask the ones that he really needs the answer to.
LAKE: And then move on, because the lady`s getting to talk a lot. And she`s likeable.
PINSKY: Well, hey, guys. We had a couple minutes of video, a couple seconds of video I wanted to show here that we got from Nancy Grace about Jodi and a bridesmaid. I wonder if we can just cut to that before we head out to break. It`s really interesting.
We`re going to show you a lot of interesting things tonight and this is one of the things that caught my eye. Here it comes. There she is as a bridesmaid.
Cheryl, bridesmaid Jodi Arias. There she is.
ARUTT: She looks like Snow White to me.
PINSKY: But no black eye.
PINSKY: But no black eye. No tears.
ARUTT: That`s a very different look for her, isn`t it?
PINSKY: Well, listen, that`s one thing we learned about Jodi. There`s constantly the chameleon-like change from one thing to the next.
To me, I tell you what you guys, this whole business about her having the I.Q. of Einstein and the manifesto, a new level of bizarre, for me, entered the conversation. But we`ll get into all that.
Next up, how well did Jodi`s parents know Travis? Travis. That`s right. What they told the cops about Travis when we come back.
And later, Jodi did something very strange just one week after killing Travis. A neighbor, somebody that grew up around her and with her reveals exactly what happened, what she experienced with Jodi, one week after the murder.
Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INVESTIGATOR: Talking about Travis Alexander, ex-boyfriend.
SANDRA ARIAS, JODI`S MOM: Yes.
INVESTIGATOR: He was killed back on June the 4th. And we have a lot of evidence to kind of put her there. And she`s not willing to explain any of it. She won`t talk to me.
Did you have any suspicion at all that she had anything to do with this?
S. ARIAS: I asked her. I asked her. That`s the first thing I asked her.
She came home, and she was fine. And then when he died, she swore she did not go to Arizona. So, of course, I believed her, you know, but I questioned her about it.
INVESTIGATOR: But you had enough suspicion to ask her.
S. ARIAS: Well, yes. Of course, because somebody dies.
INVESTIGATOR: What did she tell you about the relationship between her and Travis? Any indication that there was any problem?
S. ARIAS: Jodi did not talk to me, in fact, I did not even see a picture of Travis until he died. And she was showing me stuff on the Internet.
INVESTIGATOR: She was a very private person?
S. ARIAS: She, she would not even let me come down to Monterey to visit her and stay at her house, because she was afraid I would snoop through her stuff.
Since Travis` death, she has been the best relationship we`ve had in our whole life. And I said maybe this death has made her see that life is short and you have to -- you know, you can`t be this way. And it`s changing her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, mom, but little did you know, she had killed the young man.
It`s time for the "Behavior Bureau". Back with my co-host, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
Oh, my goodness, I have so many things. For instance, in that tape, Cheryl, we hear mom saying, of course, I believed her whenever Jodi spoke.
ARUTT: Of course.
PINSKY: Jodi can bring a lot of women around her who would wish to believe the things she`s saying. We see LaViolette on the stand taking a similar posture.
We also have the fact that her relationship with Jodi was never better than after the killing, which, to me, to me that`s diabolical. I`m going to sidle up to my mom and be nice to her, finally after a lifetime of mistreating her, because I`m worried somebody`s going to catch wind that I killed a guy.
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, why do you think that is? Why do you think she was nicer?
PINSKY: Because I think it suited her. She was getting allies together, don`t you?
ARUTT: I think that`s a good possibility that she was kind of getting people to be on her side. Also it might have been that she got a lot of her aggression out somewhere else.
PINSKY: That`s interesting.
ARUTT: You know?
PINSKY: Very interesting.
ARUTT: Joining us to continue the behavior panel is psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of the "30-Day Love Detox." We have a "Behavior Bureau" newcomer and juror, Katie Wick. She has spent more time in the presence of Jodi Arias than any of us.
ARUTT: Welcome, Katie.
PINSKY: Thank you, Katie.
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW JUROR: Thank you.
PINSKY: And, of course, we have the human lie detector, Janine Driver.
Janine, first up for you. We learned Jodi`s mom knew nothing about Travis. Never heard of him until he was dead. Never saw a photo.
Did you have a reaction to that?
DRIVER: I`m not surprised by it. And it`s very interesting that she says they have the best relationship now, granted this was several months ago. Because in the courtroom when I was there, Jodi never looks at the mother, ever turns around. And when I spoke to people in the courtroom every day, they said maybe one time since it all began or twice, she looked at the mother. They never look at each other at this point.
So, I think since it has been taped things may have shifted a little bit.
PINSKY: Wendy, your thoughts?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, we have talked a lot about how I feel. This was a traumatic bond she had with Travis. But now that I understand that she was on the outs with her mom hand healed everything up once the Travis problem was taken care of, I kind of look at it through the lens of attachment theory. And maybe you can help to the people, Dr. Drew, what I mean, when I say she might have had a weird anxious attachment caused by a rupture with her mom.
WALSH: Now that she`s sort of solved it in some weird way, and now she can be free to love her mom?
PINSKY: It`s funny. I`ve become much less psychological and much more sinister and much more criminal of my thinking about here.
What Wendy has talked about is this sort of, think about the fittedness in our parents and how that fit in this gets converted out to our relationships out in the world.
Katie, what are your thoughts?
WICK: Well, we know that Jodi uses people when it`s convenient for Jodi. And it`s just like Janine says. For the longest time she hasn`t been making eye contact with her mom and her aunt in the front row.
It`s been different the last couple of weeks. I see a lot more contact going on between Jodi and her mom and her aunt and some of her supporters in the front row. And it usually is between the mitigation specialist and Jodi`s family and they kind of smile and smirk and laugh at each other.
PINSKY: Well, today I saw her staring. She turned her chair, we couldn`t -- the courtroom, the way the cameras are configured you can`t see where she was looking but she was staring somebody down right in the vicinity of the mom towards the end of the day. Is anybody else as freaked out as I am about the manifesto? Anybody in the "Behavior Bureau."
If you have a patient, Cheryl, if you have patients writing manifestos, you guys aren`t worried about that?
ARUTT: And signing them, autographing them for posterity for when they become famous. That`s really worrisome.
WICK: Yes. We all looked at each other and said what manifesto. And you noticed how Jennifer objected right away to that. So, there`s something in there I don`t think the defense wants in. But it was audible. We looked at each other and said a manifesto?
PINSKY: Yes, Wendy, I want to read that manifesto.
WALSH: Exactly, it`s the term manifesto that is strange to me. I mean, as narcissistic as she is you would think she would be writing a memoir, you know?
PINSKY: You know, the memoir is the toned down version of the manifesto. The manifesto is a cold action on her behalf.
All right. I believe I have to take a quick break. Is that correct, right now, guys? Yes, let`s take a quick break.
Jodi`s web of lies begin with who killed Travis Alexander. We`re going to get into all that.
And later, a woman who knew Jodi as a child, knew the mom was in the community, sits in court, watches her neighbor on trial and is going to tell us a story about what happened with her and Jodi one week after the murder.
Be right back.
(JODI ARIAS SINGING)
INVESTIGATOR: Who did this?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: I don`t know, but if I am, if I go to trial for this, and I`m convicted for this, whoever did this is going to be sitting very pretty somewhere, glad that it wasn`t them.
INVESTIGATOR: And it`s my job to make sure that an innocent person does not go to jail. But I haven`t seen an innocent person sitting in front of me.
(JODI ARIAS SINGING)
J. ARIAS: I think he was shot.
INVESTIGATOR: Where were you?
J. ARIAS: I don`t really remember, except Travis was screaming. I think I got knocked out, but I don`t think I was out long. I turned around. There were two people there. One was a guy, one was a girl.
INVESTIGATOR: You feel responsible because you did this.
J. ARIAS: If, if I had it in my anywhere to kill him, the least I could have done was make it as humane as possible. I know that I didn`t take Travis` life.
(JODI ARIAS SINGING)
MARTINEZ: You`re the one that did this, right?
J. ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And you`re the same individual that lied about all this, right?
J. ARIAS: Yes.
(JODI ARIAS SINGING)
PINSKY: But it might not, because the fog set in. Back with my co- host, clinical and forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt. And the "Behavior Bureau".
Remembering that we will bring you up to date on the history we`ve been following. The defense witness speaks directly to Travis` family in the courtroom.
Now, Cheryl, Jodi blamed ninja intruders, but adds that if she did kill Travis it would have been as humane as possible. She`s so thoughtful. So thoughtful.
But interesting thing I want to ask you, wouldn`t it be weird if she ends up having a crazy like Einsteinan I.Q.? And psychopaths sometimes have that, don`t they?
ARUTT: I do think that she is very intelligent. I think that she sometimes, a lot of very intelligent psychopaths get really full of themselves and think they`re the smartest person in the room all the time and they get cocky and they start making mistakes. They don`t realize that they slip-up. A lot of times I think it`s ego.
PINSKY: But, Janine, I think she makes mistakes and then just swings right around and covers.
DRIVER: She`s quick on her fight, you know, that`s that compulsive liar. I always talk about the powerful liar, the powerful liars focuses on the reward, not the consequences. They are quick on their feet. They think in powerful emotions.
But I`m going to tell you, I`m having a heart attack over here, because earlier it was said that LaViolette was likeable. She is not likeable. I have to get out. I`m having a heart attack.
That`s like saying Bernie Madoff is likeable. She is not likeable. She`s aggressive. She`s condescending. I know we`re not talking about her.
ARUTT: Don`t holdback, Janine. Tell us how you feel.
DRIVER: Cheryl, I had to get -- I`m literally about to bite my fingernails off because I can`t take it. She`s aggressive.
PINSKY: Well, Katie, in the courtroom -- does that hold true in the courtroom, Katie?
WICK: Absolutely. The first five days she was up there, even I said, and some of us said, oh, my gosh, she seems really likeable. But here goes another defense witness being very combative with Juan Martinez, thinking they can one-up Juan Martinez, and it`s not coming off so nice. We`re not liking it at all.
And it`s definitely change. I wanted to ask Janine real fast, if I can. A lot of the jurors are resting their chin on their hand and kind of leaning down. Does that -- does that mean anything, Janine? Is that significant in any way of boredom or anything?
PINSKY: Or it`s just fatigue.
DRIVER: Katie, I love you. This is like the thinking man pose. We see Anderson Cooper do this. We see, you know, Steve Jobs do this. You appear intelligent. That says they`re listening.
But I tell you what`s happening with LaViolette. She keeps saying, Mr. Martinez, Mr. Martinez. She`s so condescending. That`s like me saying, hey, Dr. Drew, how was your trip in Aruba? This is as if I`m saying, we live you better when you were in Aruba.
Condescending. I cannot stand her, period.
PINSKY: Wendy, take us home with this one thing. The fact, though, that she is trying to use her clinical judgment should be OK. But she`s not defending it well.
WALSH: Exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, you have to be able to perform well in court. You have to not only be intelligent. You have to be well-spoken. You have to have the research. And you have to be able to communicate it in a way that the jury can understand.
PINSKY: All right -- next up, thank you, bureau -- a woman who`s been acquainted with Jodi for her whole life basically. Did she really know her at all? Did she know she was somebody capable of this? We have a prime time exclusive.
And later, I`m going to be talking -- I`ll be the expert witness. And the Arias case, you`ll want to see that.
Stay with us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, so --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why would she do something like that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know. And that`s what I was trying to --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just snap or what? How could she come back here and act normal and when friends called her and told her that he died, she totally freaked out like she knew nothing about it. I mean, how can somebody do that? I can`t think of it how anybody could do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, mom. That`s what we are all -- that`s why we`re glued to this thing. We cannot understand it. Welcome back. I`m joined by my co- host, psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, Attorney Mark Eiglarsh from SpeaktoMark.com, and Attorney Lauren Lake joins us as we speak to Kelly Woods. Again, why we all watch this is how is this possible.
Well, Kelly has had a front row seat in Jodi`s life. She has a unique perspective on Jodi. She watched her grow up, knows the family, and has been in court to see the trial for murder. Kelly, there was something you told my producers that Cheryl did one week after she killed Travis Alexander that shocked you.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Jodi did.
PINSKY: What did I say?
ARUTT: You said me. I didn`t do it.
PINSKY: No, Cheryl, you`re OK.
ARUTT: Oh, good.
PINSKY: It was Jodi, Kelly. But, tell us what it was that happened.
KELLY WOODS, KNEW JODI ARIAS: Well, Jodi was working at the time at a restaurant in Iricka (ph) called Casa Ramos, and my family and I went in for dinner that night. And Jodi was our waitress. And this was two days after she had made her gruesome killing spree trip back from Arizona.
PINSKY: So, 48 hours, hang on, Kelly, 48 hours after she slaughtered Travis Alexander, she goes back to Iricka (ph) picks up at her father`s restaurant. Her father`s restaurant? And starts serving people like it`s no big deal?
WOODS: No. This restaurant is actually not her family restaurant. This restaurant was a restaurant there that she worked at.
PINSKY: And by the way, the rest of my panel, if you guys have any questions for Kelly, please speak up and ask me. I want to ask Kelly, first, though. Was Jodi different from the other kids? I understand you knew all the other family members. Was she different in anyway? Did she have an Einsteinian IQ like we`re led to believe?
WOODS: You know, I didn`t know Jodi as a young child cause Jodi and her family had moved into the area later like when Jodi was in like junior high, middle school. And then, she, you know, obviously went through the first couple years of high school there and then had moved away.
PINSKY: But Kelly, Kelly, let me interrupt you. Was she an exceptional student? Was she brilliant? Was she setting, herself, you know, setting the intellectual landscape afire?
WOODS: No. As far as I knew, she never even showed up to class.
PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. Mark, you had a question for Kelly?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I do, Kelly. LaViolette testified today and absolutely blew me away when she said that she found no history of lying with Jodi but did find a history of lying with Travis. I don`t believe that Lebron just picked up a ball at 18 and joined the NBA. There was some practicing along the way. I`m wondering if --
WOODS: Good analogy.
EIGLARSH: -- you could, somehow, tell us about her history of lying that I think probably does exist, but somehow, missed the radar from this defense witness.
WOODS: Yes. I`m not really sure what she was talking about. As far as I can tell, anytime that Jodi`s mouth is moving, I pretty much think that it`s a lie coming out.
EIGLARSH: In the past?
PINSKY: I think, and is that something you know when you were -- saw her in high school and beyond?
WOODS: I didn`t personally go to school with her. I`m older than she is. However --
PINSKY: Kelly, stay with us here, my dear. Kelly, I`m sorry. We`re just asking you a direct question. Did you know her? Did people around town know why we could know her to be a liar, yes or no?
WOODS: Yes, absolutely.
PINSKY: Thank you. Mark, was that more that we want Martinez to be conducting himself?
EIGLARSH: That was brilliant, Drew. That is how you do effective cross examination. Bravo.
PINSKY: Lauren, did you have a question, Lauren?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Well, it was similar to what you just asked, Dr. Drew. I wanted to get a consensus of what was the rumor mill about this girl? What was the general consensus --
PINSKY: Great question.
LAKE: -- from her or is it like oh, she`s a pretty girl? Were men trying to get to know her regularly or was she like plague?
WOODS: I personally have a good friend of mine who was actually a co- waitress with her off and on for six years. And she specifically stated that every time she thought she wasn`t looking at her, she was sizing my friend up and down with eerie, eerie looks.
LAKE: We hear eerie a lot when it comes to her.
PINSKY: Yes. We hear that over and over again, Kelly. We keep hearing that she would look vague in the eyes. She would mirror what you were doing. She seemed to be searching for an identity. And she would look people over in ways that made them all very uncomfortable. Cheryl, you want to surmise what that was?
ARUTT: Well, Kelly, I was just wondering, you know, when you`ve known someone since junior high, you can look at them and kind of see their face as a kid. What was it like for you to be in a restaurant and to discover later that it was so soon after she committed this horrible murder and that she was acting normal? What was that like?
WOODS: I don`t think it was normal per se. I think it was just her. And I really do think that when she would look at people and look at us, she was not looking at us, but looking through us.
PINSKY: Again, that, that is the stuff we --
EIGLARSH: More significant, more significant than acting as a waitress, which I can`t get over is that she went to Ryan Burns` house and was sucking face with him within 24 hours, still in the fog, after killing Travis. That gets me more than her being able to order, you know, take orders.
PINSKY: OK. Well, thank you, Kelly. We really appreciate this insight. But Mark, next up, I`m taking the witness stand, and I know you have all these questions about how she could be so sexual and how she used sex. I know you`ve been preoccupied about that. So, I`m going to answer your questions and my panel`s questions.
And later, a witness interacts with a member -- or several members of Travis` family, perhaps, when they should not have been anywhere near her. My guest says she saw and intervened. We will talk to her after this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess, I`ll get this out of the way now. Do you have a memory problem?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any feelings for Jodi such that it would impair your abilities to make an honest assessment about her as a battered woman or about her relationship with Mr. Alexander.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, are you angry at me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, is that relevant to you? Is that important to you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want the truth, Mr. Martinez, or do you want --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You seem to be having trouble answering my questions. If you have a problem understanding the question, ask me that. Do you want to spar with me? Is that -- will that affect the way you view your testimony?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re implying that I think that I`m lying about what I do. And I don`t lie about what I do, Mr. Martinez.
PINSKY: Juan seems to have trouble being understood. It`s time for jury`s views. My guests get to ask me anything they want regarding the trial or any other issues, for that matter. I`ll answer them as if I were an expert witness on the stand. Cheryl, stand by. You may be part of this as well.
PINSKY: Cheryl, of course, is my co-host. I also have Attorney Mark Eiglarsh from SpeaktoMark.com, Attorney Lauren Lake, and the human lie detector, Janine Driver. Let us get started. Janine, you up first.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: All right. I`m first. My question is this, I`m six months pregnant with another boy. I have a seven-year-old son, so I`ve got two boys growing up in my control. What happens if you`re a kid, when they get older, starts dating someone like a Jodi Arias? They`re a psychopath. And you know it as a mother, what can we do to help them stay away.
PINSKY: God help you should that happen to you, because as you know, and Cheryl, you know this is true. If you push hard as a mom, you push them into the arms of that woman who he`s going to prove to you he`s right about.
DRIVER: I love Romeo and Juliet, right?
PINSKY: And we know how that ended up. It was not a good outcome. So, I think the important thing -- I think you know this intuitively, Janine.
It`s just to be in there, showing, confronting, you know, using whatever leverage you have, but always breaking through that denial so you get through that rose colored glass that he looks at her with to be realistic about how this person is and maybe not even talk about her, just talk about -- how do you assess when somebody`s lying and how do you know if somebody`s really all that what their motivation and let him come to it on his own. Do not push too hard. Mark, what`s your question?
EIGLARSH: Well, I asked last week to you and one of your panelists answered, black widow was the answer. You didn`t answer my question. I want to get your take on it.
EIGLARSH: I asked how can somebody drive all the way to execute Travis, sleep with home, bring him pleasure, essentially, and then kill him? And I got like 10 to 15 answers by e-mail from people, and thank you for that. But now, I`m more confused. What`s your take on that?
PINSKY: Mark, here`s my take. It`s the same as if a guy who was engaged in a terrorist domestic relationship with a woman, beat her up before he killed her. We wouldn`t ask then what was he doing, why did he beat her up and then kill her? It was part of his terrorist control -- powered control mechanism.
For Jodi Arias, sex is that mechanism. So, she`s merely bringing him back in like she always does, but this time, taking it all the way home and dispatching him. Does that make sense?
EIGLARSH: It does as one of the theories, yes. It`s crazy.
PINSKY: How dare you. How dare you, Mark. It is my theory. I think it`s right, because I think she uses sex like power and control the way men use physical aggression. I think she`s using sex. And if you plug sex in wherever a man would use his physicality, his aggression, I think you have your answers. Lauren, you have a question?
LAKE: Yes. Call me a defense attorney, but I don`t think LaViolette is Satan`s sidekick. I just really don`t. And I need to ask you, if the way Juan Martinez is treating her, his tone of voice, even though, with a little calmer, he came out swinging on her on Thursday.
Do you think there are any people in the jury, women or men, that have been associated or in any way affected by emotional abuse could kind of take this the wrong way like this man is coming at a woman in a very aggressive way, and it`s making me cringe.
PINSKY: I think that is the risk he takes when he takes that kind of approach. I think it`s why Mark is yelling at the television cameras all day and shaking this television screen, saying please, just get to the question -- build your argument and get out of there. Don`t beat this woman up unnecessarily, because you don`t know what a juror might think, even though, we all seem to like what he does.
LAKE: Well, you know, I`m entertained by it. But I will say this, Dr. Drew. I felt like it a couple times, he had her backed in the corner. And then when she kind of bit back everybody wants to act like she`s Satan`s sidekick, she`s just giving him a taste of his own medicine.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Hey, now listen, before we go to this break, I want Cheryl to tell me something. There was a lot of conversation about a forensic psychologist in court. Cheryl, you are a forensic psychologist. Give me 20 seconds on what that is and people are going to understand why LaViolette is not.
ARUTT: OK. First of all, a psychologist is somebody who can do therapy, licensed doctorate in psychology, a license to practice, and does psychological testing like a physician, a psychologist would have prescriptions. There are other kinds of therapists but what we do that no other kind of therapist does is psychological testing.
So, when you`re in a court and you need evidence that`s not just somebody`s opinion, their take on things because we can see how much of a problem that can be, a psychologist can do testing, the right tests with ways of checking whether they`re true.
PINSKY: The forensic part is specifically crafted for a courtroom and --
ARUTT: It comes from the Roman forum which was where they had the law. So, forensic means having to do with the legal system.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Thank you, guys. Thank you to the panel.
Next, did my jury witness see forbidden contact between a witness, LaViolette, and family members, Travis` family members? She will tell us. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re implying that I think that I`m lying about what I do. And I don`t lie about what I do, Mr. Martinez.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, I`m not implying. I`m indicating that you`re misrepresenting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is time for "Dr. Drew`s Jury." With me, my co-host, psychologist, Cheryl Arutt. Joining us, Katie Wick again and Kathy Monkman. Katie and Kathy were the very first panels we had on Drew`s jury, so we`ve come full circle. Thank you, guys, for being here.
But Kathy -- Katie -- we`ve heard from you a little bit tonight already, but Kathy, you`re the one I want to talk to first. You actually saw something after LaViolette, Alyce LaViollete got off the stand. What did you see and what did you do?
KATHY MONKMAN, DR. DREW JUROR: OK. So, at 2:55, our break is normally at three o`clock, at 2:55 last Thursday, Alyce LaViolette asked for a break for herself, which I thought was a little strange because we`re getting ready to have a break in five minutes, and because it was the first day that juror five was in the courtroom and it was the first break for that, all of the attention went over to the public side where she was sitting.
However, I sit with the family and with Travis` family. So, I was sitting right behind the family. Most of them had already exited to the victim room, but Samantha, his sister, was still sitting right in front of me, and I witnessed Alyce LaViolette walk straight up to Samantha Alexander, lean down, get inches from her fails and say something.
And then stand up and makes sort of a gesture like this and then talk with away. And because I`m a sister of a homicide victim and I`ve been through certain abuses with people approaching me, I had to get an attorney, and we fought for some changes in law that people cannot approach victims` family members, I was incensed that I witnessed this happening. So, that`s what happened last Thursday.
PINSKY: What did you do?
MONKMAN: Well, I went right out to the hallway and spoke to bill, your producer, and said did you see that? And people weren`t seeing that because they were so focused on juror number five. So, I came in the courtroom after the break.
PINSKY: Did you tell the prosecution?
MONKMAN: I did -- I never approached them. I did not, but the victim advocate who I, I know the victim advocate quite well, and she was not there that afternoon. So, frankly, I was quite stunned myself. So, --
PINSKY: Do you have any sense of what she said?
MONKMAN: I don`t. I mean, I have a sense of what it felt like to me that I don`t know the content. So, I did approach the family. I normally do not approach them, but I did this time, and I said, you know, you have a right to not be approached by representatives for her side. This is your right under the victims` bill of rights and Samantha said to me, I know, Juan Martinez is on it. That`s all I know.
PINSKY: OK. Good.
PINSKY: Very interesting, Kathy. Now, Katie, Travis Family and Jodi`s Family tend to sit kind of near one another. Are you seeing any tension, contact? What do you observe there?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW JUROR: I don`t see a lot of tension between the families, really, Dr. Drew. Sometimes, I see Jodi staring a lot at Travis` family, though, from where she sits. She often looks back and stares at Travis` family. That`s really the only interaction that I see.
And she`s been staring a lot more at the jurors lately and talking a lot more with the mitigation specialist quite frequently, even when LaViolette is testifying.
PINSKY: We notice that. Let`s get a quick call. Marissa in Pennsylvania -- Marissa?
MARISSA, PENNSYLVANIA: Yes, I have a question. Do you believe, I think, that LaViolette is a man hater and a condescending one at that? She just comes across like she wants to be on Jodi`s side simply because she is such a man hater.
PINSKY: Katie, any sense of that in the courtroom?
WICK: Right. I didn`t think that until Juan got up and started questioning her, Dr. Drew, because she`s really battling with him. And I - - it almost feels like there`s this big group that`s up against Juan. I feel like the eye of the tiger should be playing when she takes the stand because it`s really like this feeling of the defense up against Juan.
And they kind of get in these little huddles and they kind of talk right before she goes up to the stand. It`s really -- it`s really interesting what`s going on, but she`s a lot different than we saw on direct.
PINSKY: OK. We`re going to take a quick break. You guys will be back with me. It`s time then for the last call. Be right back.
PINSKY: Time for the last call. I`m back with my jury and Cheryl Arutt and we are going to go right to the phones. Christine in Idaho -- Christine.
CHRISTINE, IDAHO: Hi, Dr. Drew. My point is that these jurors have been shown some very, very graphic pictures of the murder and the murder scene. And those pictures are never going to leave their heads. What do you think of that? I think that that will keep them from the self-defense.
PINSKY: Listen. I`m glad you asked that question. It is Katie or Kathy, I`ll go to you since you haven`t had a chance to ring in in a couple minutes here. It`s something that I wish people would see. You need to go online and look, because it will end a lot of conversation about this. The brutality is spectacular.
MONKMAN: Oh, me? I keep going back to that. When all of these things that are diversions, you know, all the sexuality and different forms of sex and all of this porn and all this stuff is diversion, but all these jury needs to see and I will say the men need to see this on this jury are those crime scene photos and the brutality and they will convict her and they will sentence her to death. And that`s my prediction.
PINSKY: Ooh, wow. Thank you, ladies. Cheryl, do you agree with her?
PINSKY: When I look at those photos, though, it just frames it differently. It just makes the whole case seem differently.
ARUTT: It`s traumatizing, I imagine, for everyone who sees the photos, too. It kind of makes me want to tell everybody about MDR, you know?
PINSKY: All right. Guys, got to go. Thank you to Cheryl Arutt. Thank you for watching. Of course, my jury, thank you guys for coming as well. Shout out to Scott Saff (ph), our previous leader who`s been under the weather. Scott, this will make you feel better. Your new hit show, "HLN After Dark" starts right now.