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Prosecutor Versus Shrink in Jodi Arias Trial

Aired April 8, 2013 - 20:00   ET



JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Isn`t it true that you did not deliver the keynote speech back in 2010 involving whether or not Snow White was a battered woman?


MARTINEZ: Yes or no. Yes or no?

LAVIOLETTE: No, I don`t know. I gave several keynote addresses. And I -- if you are trying to trick me with the year, you can trick me with the year.

MARTINEZ: Do you have a problem understanding the question? Tell me what negative things the defendant wrote about herself in those journals. That was my question.

LAVIOLETTE: If you show me what you`re referring to.

MARTINEZ: When was that (INAUDIBLE) in Baltimore.

LAVIOLETTE: Give me a date. If you`re asking me (INAUDIBLE) history major, I`m not a history major. You`re implying that I think that I`m lying about what I do, and I don`t lie about what I do, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: ... that 90 percent of all communication is nonverbal. That`s what you said, right?

LAVIOLETTE: I explained now I meant that, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: A continuum of aggression and abuse was used, wasn`t it.

LAVIOLETTE: It was used as...

MARTINEZ: Yes or no.


MARTINEZ: That would mean that you were 90 percent wrong.

LAVIOLETTE: That`s quite an extrapolation, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: Ultimately, what you`re saying is that you are a human lie detector, right?

LAVIOLETTE: Gosh, I didn`t think I was saying that, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: (INAUDIBLE) whether or not Snow White was a battered woman, right?

LAVIOLETTE: I think we spent a lot of time talking...

MARTINEZ: Is that yes?

Did (ph) you (ph) speak (ph) to anybody involved with this fantastical tale.

LAVIOLETTE: I think that answer would be quite obvious, that I couldn`t speak to Snow White nor could I speak to the Seven Dwarves.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

After Jodi Arias slashes and shoots her love to death, leaving his body in a dripping-wet shower stall, bombshell tonight. Right now, a ferocious fight raging between the prosecution and Arias`s second shrink, Alyce LaViolette, the shrink under oath insisting Arias is the victim and Travis Alexander is the perp.

As LaViolette declares to the jury, I am not a liar, graphic and upsetting shower/murder shots just released. And after weeks on the stand, finally today, LaViolette admits Arias may have lied to her all along, rendering her diagnosis absolutely worthless!

Liz, let`s go straight back into the courtroom.


LAVIOLETTE: Yes, I have, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: Now, with regard to this 603 (ph), it`s an important case, isn`t it.

LAVIOLETTE: It`s -- you mean the statement about the manifesto...


LAVIOLETTE: I read the highlighted section. Did you want me to read the entire page?

MARTINEZ: Go ahead and look (INAUDIBLE)

LAVIOLETTE: I just was reading the highlighted...

GRACE: On the stand right now, the defense`s second shrink, Alyce LaViolette. Look at Martinez. He`s just waiting. He`s waiting for the witness, LaViolette, to read this document, walking, walking, pacing, winding up for the throw, Martinez showing no mercy on his cross- examination of LaViolette.

Here we go.

MARTINEZ: ... document. It does say "important (ph) page," doesn`t it.

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, it does.

MARTINEZ: And the page is 8-and-a-half by 11, correct?


MARTINEZ: And in this is the issue involving the manifesto, right?


MARTINEZ: It`s at the top upper left-hand corner, correct?

LAVIOLETTE: It`s what?

MARTINEZ: It`s written about on the upper left-hand corner at the top, right?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained. Rephrase.

MARTINEZ: Well, with regard to this page, there is an upper left-hand corner at the very top, right?


MARTINEZ: And on the margins of the upper left-hand corner, don`t you reference the manifesto?

LAVIOLETTE: I didn`t look at the upper left-hand corner. I looked at the body (INAUDIBLE)

MARTINEZ: Just take a quick look. You see that at the upper left- hand corner?


MARTINEZ: You do reference the manifesto, correct?


MARTINEZ: And then this issue of the manifesto and the signing and all that is in the middle portion, correct?


MARTINEZ: So this is something that you considered important.


MARTINEZ: And with regard to that, isn`t it true that the defendant asked somebody named Amy (ph) to print out two copies of the last page of the manifesto and have them signed in case...



MARTINEZ: Have them signed in case...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Approach, please.

GRACE: OK, quickly, while they are taking a sidebar, everyone, for those of you just joining us, we are live and camped outside the courthouse, testimony ongoing. As soon as they get down from the judge`s bench and that sidebar, we`re going straight back into the courtroom.

We are taking your calls live. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," also with us at the courthouse. Jean, the manifesto I keep hearing about -- it`s my understanding LaViolette has said that a woman I believe named Amy said she went and made copies of a manifesto written by Jodi Arias because Arias says she wants to have them ready to sign in case she gets famous.

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": We were all surprised by this -- it just happened in the courtroom -- because we`ve never heard of a manifesto. But a manifesto -- Jodi Arias had the intelligence enough and the self-esteem enough -- that`s the issue, I think -- to say that she thought she was going to be famous and wanted to sign a directive as to what to do when she became so famous.

GRACE: OK, a manifesto, everyone, is what we`re talking about. Apparently, Jodi Arias has written a manifesto and wanted copies of it to sign in case she got famous.

I only pray the jury was taking notes when that happened, Beth Karas.

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": Yes, and this is something that must have occurred while she was incarcerated. She`s been locked up for four-and-a- half years, and it`s probably something she created at that time.

Don`t forget LaViolette did not meet her until some years after she was locked up. So it is something that she`s created. She signed a page, the back page, and that`s what she gave Amy to copy, make some copies of the signature page, In case I get famous someday. We don`t know anything...

GRACE: Well, you know, what`s interesting...

KARAS: ... more about it.

GRACE: ... Beth? You know what`s interesting? She probably we be able to sell it on eBay for a lot of money. That is the sad truth.

Everybody, we`re waiting to go back in for testimony. We`re waiting for the lawyers to come down from the judge`s bench.

Let`s take calls. Straight out to Shantelle in Michigan. Hi, Shantelle. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m watching this, and this morning, during the morning session, there was something posted on the Facebook group that I talk to about this trial. And it`s -- on Youtube, there`s a little video, 33 seconds, and it says, Jennifer Wilmott motioning to witness. And you can see right about the 29th second, she motions something to LaViolette on the stand, as like she`s telling her to fix something or do something. And I was wondering, is that OK?

GRACE: Actually, you`re not supposed to coax your witnesses while they are on the stand. You`re not supposed to coach them, period.

Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Jason Lamm. Also with us at the Phoenix courthouse special guest Yale Galanter, defense attorney, also lawyer for O.J. Simpson -- I`m certain you`re not saying that that is a feather in his cap -- joining me out of Plantation, Florida.

Yale, Galanter, shouldn`t all coaching be done privately? I mean, really, you`re not supposed to coach your witnesses. You can go over the questions you`re going to ask them, but really, to give them directives like at a basketball game -- I hardly think that`s appropriate.

YALE GALANTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, it`s totally inappropriate. And if the judge was made aware of it, she should do something about it. You definitely cannot coach a witness while they`re on the witness stand. You can`t give them any signals, any high fives, thumbs-up, anything like that. And my understanding is that there are some fans of this witness in the courtroom who have been doing that. It should definitely be brought to the judge`s attention, and she should solve that problem real quick.

GRACE: Jason Lamm, it seems to me that once again, a defense witness is crumbling under cross-examination by Martinez.

JASON LAMM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, I kind of disagree with you.

GRACE: Really.

LAMM: I don`t think she`s crumbling. What Juan Martinez keeps doing is asking her silly questions about Snow White. And really...

GRACE: Really?

LAMM: ... the only thing he`s doing is...

GRACE: You think that`s silly?

LAMM: ... is making himself look like the big, bad wolf. Yes, I do think it`s silly. And I`ll tell you something else. Jodi Arias...

GRACE: Why is that?

LAMM: ... may have been a house of straw and Dr. Samuels a house of sticks. But the only thing that`s going to happen, if he keeps huffing and puffing...

GRACE: Are you referring to the Three Little Pigs?


GRACE: Are you referring to the Three Little Pigs?

LAMM: I am! I absolutely...


LAMM: Well, I can`t really come on national TV and call them the dwarves, so I`m doing the best I can, Nancy. I think he`s...

GRACE: Jason...

LAMM: ... huffing and puffing...

GRACE: Let`s examine...

LAMM: ... and he needs to back off.

GRACE: ... why you think Martinez is the bad guy for cross-examining LaViolette after she compares beaten women, their faces all mangled, their arms broken, sometimes their legs broken, cigarette burns on their arms -- she compares them to Snow White, the Disney princess. Yes, I got a problem with that, too.

LAMM: Nancy, let me ask you, did you look at her background? Do you know that she often testifies for the Los Angeles County district attorney`s office? She`s a prosecution expert!

GRACE: Actually...

LAMM: And they`re taking fault with her?

GRACE: Actually, Jason...

LAMM: It`s not (ph) like he`s cross-examining her!

GRACE: Actually, Jason, as she said on her direct exam when she went through her resume, which we have now found out was incorrect -- for days on end, we found out she testified more for the defense than she has for the prosecution. So I suggest to you that you put that in your pipe and smoke it.

In the meantime, let`s go back into the courtroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may continue.

MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true that the defendant signed them, according to your notes, in case she became famous.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled. You may answer.

LAVIOLETTE: That information received from Amy...

MARTINEZ: Yes or no. It really is. It`s yes or no question.

LAVIOLETTE: I didn`t get the information from Ms. Arias.

MARTINEZ: Judge, she`s just (INAUDIBLE)

LAVIOLETTE: Like, I got the information from Amy, and -- and -- she said that, yes.

MARTINEZ: So you are saying Amy is lying?

LAVIOLETTE: No, I`m not. I`m saying I didn`t get it from Ms. Arias.

MARTINEZ: I`m not asking you where you got it, did I.


MARTINEZ: All I`m asking is for the substance of it, right?


MARTINEZ: And you had no reason to believe that Amy was not telling the truth.







LAVIOLETTE: In regard to domestic violence, I am saying Mr. Alexander is the perpetrator, yes.

MARTINEZ: If he is being stabbed in the back, at that point, then he`s no threat to you, right?


GRACE: How can you take someone seriously in a case with this gravity, where one of her main speeches is, Was Snow White a battered woman?

LAVIOLETTE: What we`re asking is for her to change her socialization and to go from Snow White to the Wicked Witch.

MARTINEZ: Would you agree that you`re the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander`s throat from ear to ear?

LAVIOLETTE: I`m confused. Are you talking about Snow White again?



GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live and camped outside that Phoenix courthouse, bringing you testimony as it happens. On the stand, the defense`s second shrink, Alyce LaViolette, being shredded by prosecutor Juan Martinez.

Now, as we were coming in, you saw a question I threw out months ago, when we began to research LaViolette, with her main thesis comparing battered women to Snow White, the Disney princess.

It`s not a pretty picture in the courtroom right now, Alyce LaViolette on the stand, this as stunning and very upsetting shower/murder scenes have just been released. Let me warn you that this is graphic.

Also, there in the shower, you`ll see a glass. It looks like a plastic cup, that glass besides the number 14 evidence marker, that Arias used to clean off the body and evidence from Travis Alexander. This just released as the testimony goes on.

Let`s go straight back in the courtroom.

MARTINEZ: And the person who delivered that keynote address was somebody by the name of Katherine S. Connell (ph), correct?


MARTINEZ: Now, your name`s not on there, correct?


MARTINEZ: And then you said, Well, I delivered the keynote speech in the plenary sections (ph). That`s what you said, right?

LAVIOLETTE: No, I didn`t. I was the keynote in a breakout session, in a studio session, it was called.

MARTINEZ: All right. And if we then take a look at the breakout seminars, does it say "keynote speaker" in the breakout?


MARTINEZ: It just that you`re the person that`s presenting that in this studio number 3, correct?

LAVIOLETTE: That`s the way...

GRACE: Martinez back on her resume, her CV attacking her. She put on her resume she was a keynote speaker at a big conference with thousands of people there, I understand. She was not the keynote speaker.

MARTINEZ: ... indicating that you`re misrepresenting what -- in terms of exhibit 598, it does say, "I don`t know of all of the world, but in the clinical world, 90 percent of all communication is nonverbal." That`s what it says, right?


MARTINEZ: And if we are applying that to the conversation involving (INAUDIBLE) and to Mr. Alexander that you told us about last Thursday, that would mean that you were 90 percent wrong because there was no -- you weren`t able to look at the nonverbal communication, were you?

LAVIOLETTE: That`s quite an extrapolation, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: Is that yes or no?

LAVIOLETTE: That`s no.

MARTINEZ: And in fact, it`s important to look at what the people are doing, is what you`re saying, the way their bodies are when they`re saying things, right?

LAVIOLETTE: That`s true in a face-to-face. You can`t do the same thing when you`ve got written communication. But if the written communication is consistent over time between numerous parties, that -- it`s consistent. I don`t know what else to say, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: But in communications where there are people talking -- for example, in text messages -- you would agree that you can`t see their faces, right? You don`t know what their faces look like, correct?


MARTINEZ: No, you can or -- you can`t? You can or can`t?

LAVIOLETTE: I can`t see their faces, no.

MARTINEZ: And with regard to what the person may be doing at the time that they`re sending this and how they`re feeling, you wouldn`t get the gist of that if you`re just looking at the written word, correct?

LAVIOLETTE: You can get a lot from the written word.


MARTINEZ: Ma`am, in this case, you actually are biased in favor of the defendant, aren`t you.

LAVIOLETTE: Do I believe the evidence that supports domestic violence? Yes. I think "biased" is an incorrect word, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: No, that is the correct word. Isn`t it true that you are biased in favor of the defendant? Yes or no.

LAVIOLETTE: I don`t believe I`m biased.

GRACE: Everybody, we are live camped outside that Phoenix courthouse, bringing you the latest. Liz, let me know when you get that speech excerpt pulled up. OK, let`s hear what she actually said in the speech about Snow White. Take a listen.


LAVIOLETTE: (INAUDIBLE) battered women that we want them to be passive, right? When they grow up (INAUDIBLE) grow up, they`re to be passive. They`re to be kind (ph) (INAUDIBLE) passionate (ph). And you know what? The other thing is they`re to be long-suffering. If (INAUDIBLE) they suffer long enough, they`re going to get what they want, but they have to suffer, OK?

So when we do them (ph), what we wind up with are women who believe that that`s who they are supposed to be. Now they come into a battered women`s shelter or they come into an outreach group or they`re just in the culture, and what we do is situationally pathologize them because now there`s something wrong with them for being the best woman that they can be. And now we say to them, you know, That compassion stuff is just not working out real well for you.


GRACE: That is LaViolette in one of her speeches, where she compares battered women, abused, beaten women to the Disney princess Snow White.

We are camped outside the courthouse and taking your calls. Out to you, Jean Casarez -- Martinez slicing her up from everything ranging from her resume to her speeches to the way that she conducted the interview, the diagnosis with Jodi Arias. When will it end? What`s next?

CASAREZ: You know what he really focused on and I think he`ll continue to focus on this, is that what she testified to is her opinion, that there is no science to back it up, and her opinion is one way and another person`s opinion could be another way. And he (INAUDIBLE) focused and aligned with that, that she never went out and interviewed people herself. She only relied on the written word.

Now, the counter to that might be she wanted the state of mind of the written word at that time, not what some years later somebody feels about the whole situation. But Martinez made a lot of points with that.



MARTINEZ: In those journals, the one thing you read, the ones that you can remember, can you think of anything negative that the defendant said about herself in those journals, anything?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I`m no lady of justice, but I just know that there`s nothing he could have possibly done to deserve what happened to him."

LAVIOLETTE: She talked about being depressed. She talked about -- and I -- there are -- there are numerous places where she talks about feeling bad about herself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I love Travis and always will. We`re just different. His fiery temper doesn`t mix with my tendency to cry."

"More rude. He accused me again of slashing his tires, which of course is not true."


GRACE: This as the defense witness on the stand after two weeks of testimony finally admits under cross examination that it is very possible Jodi Arias lied to her the entire time that she was being diagnosed. Welcome back, everybody. We are live and taking your calls camped outside the courthouse bringing you the latest in the murder one trial of Jodi Arias. Let`s go straight back into the courtroom on the stand. Arias` second shrink, Alyce LaViolette under cross examination.

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE: It was written material that involved conversation between Mr. Alexander and Shatanya Lay.

MARTINEZ:: What date?

LAVIOLETTE: What date?


LAVIOLETTE: There was - there was a range of dates. If you would refresh -- I reviewed thousands of documents. So, what - can I see the document that you are referring to?

MARTINEZ: No. You are the one that referred to this opinion on Thursday, weren`t you, madam? Madam, you told us that Shatanya Lay was vulnerable. Didn`t you tell us that on Thursday? As it involved her relationship with Mr. Alexander? Do you remember telling us that?


MARTINEZ: With regard to that opinion, in terms of their relationship, whatever the relationship may have been between her and Mr. Alexander, when was that achieve was vulnerable? Give me a date.

LAVIOLETTE: Mr. Martinez, there was a range -- there were a range of I.M.s. And if you are asking me to be a history major, I`m not a history major, but I read thousands of documents. And if you can refresh my recollection, I would be happy to tell you the dates.

MARTINEZ: But you, as you sit here now you can`t tell us a time period when Ms. Lay was vulnerable in her relationship with Mr. Alexander, correct?

LAVIOLETTE: Which part that she was vulnerable?

MARTINEZ: You are the one that said that she was vulnerable after reading either I.M.s or text messages, right?


GRACE: Everyone, very quickly, we looked up the testimony. The caller Shantelle (ph) from Michigan called in about, was the defense lawyer giving cues to the witness on the stand? Let`s see the video quickly, Liz.


MARTINEZ: Now, what, maybe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, volunteering information. You may continue.

MARTINEZ: Madame, my question to you is .

GRACE: Watch - watch right now.

MARTINEZ: . is not about the names. It is just illustrative.


MARTINEZ: My question to you .

GRACE: I think that is what the caller was talking about.

MARTINEZ: . just relying on the record .


GRACE: I think that is what the caller was talking about, that gesture that was just made. All right, I`m not seeing that as any cue to the witness. To you, joining me right now psychologist from L.A. Shrinks, Greg Cason joining me. Greg, thank you for being with us.

GREG CASON: Thank, good to be here.

GRACE: I saw that gesture that the defense lawyer made. I couldn`t quite make out was it a regular gesture for brushing her hair back or she reaching out to get the witnesses`s attention and got caught and then reached back to smooth her hair? Because when you smooth your hair you really don`t go out like that and then - oops, smooth your hair. That did look a little unusual.

CASON: It is usually not something I do to smooth my hair. But yes, she did seem to point out and then seemed to be caught and pulled her finger back into her hair.

GRACE: OK, I am about to take us back into the courtroom. Very quickly to you, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter Weigh in, Alexis.

ALEXIS TERESZCUK: Juan Martinez is absolutely destroying this witness. What he does with everyone that he`s had is he lets them talk and talk and talk, even though you know (inaudible) to let them keep talking, and then he points out their inconsistencies, which he is doing over and over and over again. What he is showing us that Jodi, her stories are a lie. He believes that they are a lie and he is trying to get Alyce to say that they are a lie, too.

GRACE: Well, Alyce, as far, is digging her heels in. And when we say Alyce, we are referring to Alyce LaViolette what we believe to be the last defense witness on the stand. Let`s go in the courtroom.

MARTINEZ: One of the things that came up was that the defendant was Mr. Alexander`s stalker, right?


MARTINEZ: And with regard to that conversation the events involving the stalking were discussed, yes or no?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes. There were a couple of that.

MARTINEZ: Yes or no? Yes or no?


MARTINEZ: They were discussed, weren`t they?


MARTINEZ: Previously, when you were asked about -- about that, you said I see no evidence whatsoever about stalking. Do you remember saying that?

LAVIOLETTE: I still don`t know.

MARTINEZ: I understand. So, you still don`t see that even though they are referenced in that message, right?

LAVIOLETTE: I don`t see that based on Mr. Travis`s behavior towards Ms. Arias. Stalking is a different ball game. And it`s a pattern of behavior and it`s a pattern that usually creates fear in the person that`s being stalked. And so I don`t see that with Mr. Alexander as he continues to connect with Ms. Arias.

MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true that Mr. - when you just said here -- isn`t it true that Mr. Alexander was extremely fearful of the defendant based on what was said in that conversation?

LAVIOLETTE: I don`t get that based on what I`m looking at. Once again, Mr. Martinez, you are asking me to look at something that is isolated as opposed to looking at the context of what we are talking about.

GRACE: This is highly significant, because what she is saying is although she is reading emails and texts from Travis Alexander saying that he is afraid of Jodi Arias, this witness is choosing not to believe his text messages and emails, instead to believe what Arias tells him - tells her. Why? We are taking your calls. Out to Annie in Indiana. Hi, Annie. What is your question?

ANNIE FROM INDIANA: Hi, Nancy. I believe she had this premeditated, even down to scripting her diary. You know, when she writes things like she doesn`t know who could have been strong enough to kill Travis and this and that. I believe she knew she was going to be a suspect and that her diary would be read and was hoping that it would take the attention off of her. I think she is crazy and I hope that she gets convicted and that we don`t have an injustice like we did with Casey Anthony.

GRACE: I mean look at the diary entries. "He confirmed Travis is dead. What happened?!? What happened? Travis, what is this?" Of course, her diaries are faked. Annie, you are absolutely correct.

Unleash the lawyers. Joining me out of Plantation, Florida, Yale Galanter, he represented O.J. Simpson, Jason Lamm, defense attorney joining me at the Phoenix courthouse. Gentlemen, welcome. Yale Galanter, doesn`t it concern you a tiny bit that we can tell a lot of her diary entries are faked? Don`t you think this is going to rub this jury the wrong way?

YALE GALANTER: Yeah, Nancy, look, even as a defense attorney, the biggest problem that the defense team has in this case is that Jodi Arias has lied so much. She has lied to the police. She has lied to her lawyers. She`s lied in the courtrooms and the jurors by their questions said to her why should we believe you now? So the defense team definitely has an uphill battle. In my opinion this isn`t about guilt or innocence, this is totally about whether or not they are going to sentence her to life in prison or whether they are going to give her the death penalty. And by trying to humanize her and showing all the human faults that she has, the defense is going to make a plea to this jury .

GRACE: Yale! Yale! Yale!

GALANTER: . that she shouldn`t receive the death penalty.

GRACE: Wow, wow, wow, stop the trying. Yale, both of you have tried a lot of cases. Granted. But when you say they put Jodi Arias on the stand for all of those days to humanize her, I hardly think hearing her talk about oral sex across the street from Starbucks, anal sex scenes (ph), and how many pictures did I have to see of her booty hole? I mean you really think that humanizes her? I don`t.

GALANTER: I think it makes her a human person with human faults. And the more the jury gets to see that the tougher it`s going to be for them to sentence her to death. And that is what it is really all about.

GRACE: OK. All right.

GALANTER: Nancy, when juries sentence people to death they hate them. They don`t like them. So here what they are going to do is they are going to go back and they`re going to say, this is a person who has mental defects. This is a person who is not normal.

GRACE: I don`t think .

GALANTER: but this is not a person who deserves to die.

GRACE: OK, and Jason Lamm, of course, the jury will never know that just before trial she tried her best to plead guilty to murder two, but the state wouldn`t have it.

JASON LAMM: Well, Nancy, settlement negotiations whether in Arizona or Georgia or anywhere around the country, they are always (ph) not privy to the jury.

GRACE: Yeah, I know that. That`s what I just said. The jury will never .

LAMM: And of course. Exactly.

GRACE: She wasn`t - she wasn`t crying self defense .

LAMM: And, you know, the fact of the matter is the defense was trying to do damage control.

GRACE: She wasn`t saying self -defense. She was ready to swear under oath.

LAMM: Well, they were looking to do damage control. They were making a pitch to save her life. They - you don`t have to -- in Arizona you don`t have to swear as part of a guilty plea. You just admit that it`s true or not. All she was going to admit to that she intentionally took his life without premeditation.

GRACE: Wow, wow, wow. So you`re saying .


LAMM: -- damage control.

GRACE: If she didn`t say, I swear so help me God, then it`s not as bad as you just lied in open court. And that`s OK. Did you say that? Did you say, oh, no .

LAMM: It`s not a matter --.

GRACE: . she didn`t have to swear - she just had to say it was true.

LAMM: just how it works. It`s plea negotiations. It`s that simple, Nancy.



MARTINEZ: You know what clinical (ph) is, right?

LAVIOLETTE: Of course, I know what a clinical (ph) is.

MARTINEZ: All right, then we seem to be having problems with it.

LAVIOLETTE: No, but it certainly is.

MARTINEZ: Yes or no? Does it have anything to do with your evaluation and judge, say yes or no answers?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you answer that question yes or no?

LAVIOLETTE: I`m not sure at this point what the question is, because when someone is approaching in that way it is very hard to listen.

MARTINEZ: Yes or no?

LAVIOLETTE: It`s not a yes or no. Do you want the truth, Mr. Martinez, or do you want yes or no?

MARTINEZ: I`m asking you questions. You seem to be having trouble answering my questions. You charge $250 an hour to read them, right?

LAVIOLETTE: It is a standard fee, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: Am I asking you about the standard fee?

LAVIOLETTE: Apparently not.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are live and taking your calls. LaViolette staying surprisingly calm during the cross examination by prosecutor Martinez. Everyone, we are camped outside at the courthouse and taking your calls. Joining me right now is a friend of Travis Alexander on the prosecution witness list who was confronted by Arias in a jealous rage. With me right now Clancy Talbot. Clancy, thank you for being with us.

CLANCY TALBOT: You`re welcome. Thank you for having me.

GRACE: You know, a lot of our viewers don`t know what happened between you and Arias, when she approached you in a lady`s bathroom at one of these legal events. What happened, Clancy?

TALBOT: She just, the night before I was around Travis and we had our arms locked and we were just around a lot of people laughing and having fun and apparently she took that as, you know, somebody that she needs to be jealous of. So the next day she actually got me in the restroom by myself and just confronted me and asked me, you know, well, she was telling me that she didn`t blame me, she blamed Travis and that they were an item. And she just - she was shaking and she was just strange. And she just kept saying the same thing over and over again until my friend came in and asked me what was going on. And because she was blocking the door way. And that is how I got to leave. So just crazy Jodi.

GRACE: You know, when you say crazy, you know, the street term crazy is a lot different from the legal definition of insanity. At any point did you feel she didn`t understand what she was saying to you?

TALBOT: I think she understood what she was saying. I think she was just very either angry .

GRACE: Angry.

TALBOT: . or flustered.

GRACE: Yeah. Did you ever tell Travis what happened?

TALBOT: She was - I never talked to Travis about it. I know she did. It was a topic of their conversation many times about his friends and his friends that were girls. And I mean she was jealous of all of his friends especially his friends that were females. So .

GRACE: What do you make of what`s going on in the courtroom with Alyce LaViolette claiming that he is the perpetrator and Jodi Arias is the victim?

TALBOT: It makes me very angry especially when she talks about his childhood and because of his upbringing that that - you know, he is going to be an abuser, which his family is sitting there listening to all of this, does that mean they are all abusers too and says nothing about Jodi`s childhood and, you know, how she was raised. Travis lived with his grandmother at the age of eight. So, he didn`t spend his entire childhood with his parents. And Jodi was with her parents until she was 16 or 17. So it`s very frustrating. And for his family to sit there and listen to that is really, really hard. And they are a great example to me, again, we have set up a fund for them called for people that want to support the Alexander family to donate to. And it`s just amazing how strong this family is and an example for all of us.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. What a day in that Phoenix courtroom as Martinez tears into defense expert Alyce LaViolette. We are live and camped outside the courthouse and we are taking your calls. Very quickly, Alexis Weed, it`s my understanding that we now learn that Arias says not once, but twice, at chain restaurants, not that there`s anything wrong with that, I believe Applebee`s and Ruby Tuesdays. And on one occasion, an anonymous woman - not know who she was, came in and said that your boyfriend`s cheating. All right. That`s Arias. Then she says fast forward. Years passed and now she`s at Chili`s, I guess working or enjoying a grill chicken salad or something. And all of a sudden, two other anonymous women come in and go, Travis is cheating. You know what - I don`t think there was any Ruby Tuesdays and I don`t think there was an Applebee`s, there were Chili`s or anything. I think if anything at all, she had that spy program on their computers and was reading everything that the boyfriends were writing. I think all of that is a big (inaudible), I don`t believe it. What`s the jury doing when they hear all these crazy, zany stories?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, when Martinez is up there once again, we see the jury a little bit more animated. And those two stories that you`re talking about, the first one was with respect to Matt McCartney. That`s when Arias said that she found out that he was seeing another woman, based on two women coming into the restaurant where she worked, and then the prosecution today surprised LaViolette and asking her, are you aware that this same type of occurrence happened again with respect to Travis?


WEED: So, a second time .

GRACE: That`s a lie.

WEED: He then (inaudible) by women in a restaurant.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Jason Lamb, Yale Galanter! All right. Yale Galanter, let`s just start with you. You know that two anonymous women didn`t go into Chili`s and Applebee`s or Ruby Tuesdays or whatever it was and tell her this. She`s snooping and stalking and following and slashing tires and looking into windows, looking over the hedge. There`s Jodi Arias. She`s the stalker. Not Travis. That`s how she knew this. And she`s just fabricating and fabricating. When do you tell your witness to shut up?

GALANTER: Well, you`ve got to tell your witness to shut up right away. And what`s happening in this courtroom, and, you know what? It kills me to agree with the prosecution here, Nancy and to agree with you. But Martinez really is doing a very effective job in making this witness say, listen, the only evidence you have of being a battered women is what Jodi told you. Never reported it to police. She never told anybody.

GRACE: You`re on a first-name basis now, what Jodi told you.

GALANTER: It`s just they got an uphill battle.

GRACE: Sorry to hear that, Yale. I`m very sorry to hear that.

All right, Jason, let`s see what you have to say.

LAMM: You know, the point of the matter is, this is all a sideshow. And what it comes down to, who stalked who. The question is, is there going to be any credible evidence that comes out of this witness that there could have been domestic violence when it comes down to a justification instruction to the jury.

GRACE: Is that what you`re saying, Jason? Because this is a murder one .

LAMM: It is.

GRACE: . as we all know.

LAMM: It is, Nancy.

GRACE: And the fact that Travis is saying in e-mails and texts, I`m afraid of Jodi Arias, I think that that is critical evidence. I think it does matter, Jason.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Staff Sergeant Michael Bock, 26, Lizburg, Florida. Silver Star, Purple Heart, parents, David and Sandra. Brothers, Paul and David, sister Christine, widow and high school sweetheart, Tiffany. Son Alexander. Michael Bock. American hero.

And now straight back to Phoenix. Everyone, we are bringing you the trial of Jodi Arias, the murder one trial, to Greg Cason, joining us from LA Shrinks. Greg, thank you for being with us. I have a question.


GRACE: After you have seen and reviewed all of the evidence, I want to know what you really believe. Is it possible that she was -- let me just say, is it probable that she was a battered woman?

CASON: It`s possible, but I don`t know that it`s probable. There are usually a lot of indications to show that someone`s been battered. And yes, maybe previous police calls, reports to friends. Other reports of abuse to other people. And other people usually afraid for the person. We haven`t seen any of that here. Although we do know a lot of cases where people have been abused and managed to keep that a secret from the public. So we can`t rule it out.

GRACE: So you`re saying that it`s possible but not probable.

CASON: Well, not probable. I think, in this case, because there`s too many other extraneous factors. She looked like everything was just fine, but you see that a lot in abuse cases. That`s why you can`t rule it out. The other thing is, though, I think it`s quite possible that she was a stalker.

GRACE: With me is Dr. Greg Cason, joining us out L.A. Everyone, the testimony for today has ended. Dr. Drew`s up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, goodnight, friend.