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Jury Gets Hostile with Domestic Violence Expert

Aired April 11, 2013 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, as we go back into court, an avalanche of very -- and I mean very -- hostile questions from the jury in the Jodi Arias case -- look at her -- leaves Jodi near tears. She is seeing her life flash before her, I guarantee you. Remember in Arizona, jurors can ask questions. And these questions don`t seem to show the jury buying Jodi`s claim of being abused by Travis Alexander, the victim. Au contraire.

Meantime, breaking news: new artwork reportedly by Jodi on sale online. Should this defendant be allowed to make money selling jailhouse art? And by the way, it`s an hourglass. Does Jodi think her time is running out? Is that why her defense expert tried to put victim Travis Alexander on trial?


JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did Miss Arias know about his secret life?

She caught him masturbating to pictures of a little boy.

His behavior and the things that he actually said and the things that he did.

Mr. Alexander sent her boy`s underwear.

Mr. Alexander liked Jodi to wear pigtails.

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DOMESTIC ABUSE EXPERT: You live a life of deception.

WILLMOTT: Mr. Alexander liked her to dress like a schoolgirl.

Is this the same mouth that lied about his virginity?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes. There would be so much for Mr. Alexander to lose.

WILLMOTT: Lied about his virginity to his church.

LAVIOLETTE: He was leading a double life.

WILLMOTT: Mr. Alexander portrayed himself as a virgin?


WILLMOTT: Was there a deception there?

LAVIOLETTE: If his private life came out, I think it would destroy a lot of that. Miss Arias is the safest target.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, sounds like they`re ratcheting up their claims against the victim. Jodi, of course, was on the stand for 18 days. Tonight, she`s reportedly found another way to get attention. Twitter. An account run through an apparent supporter. And she appears to be taking aim at prosecutor Juan Martinez.

Quote, "Hmm, anger management problems, anyone?" That`s just one of her attacks on the prosecutor. She also takes a low blow at his height. Yes, the prosecutor is on the shorter side. We`re going to reveal her tweets to you tonight.

And more of my grilling by two seasoned detectives, where I break down. And yes, I also do a handstand, confess to a fake crime to learn how they grill suspects and how they react to behavior that Jodi exhibited in the interrogation room.

OK. We`re going back to the court. Disgraced athletes Lance Armstrong and former president Bill Clinton, by the way, just mentioned in a courtroom shocker as this defense expert, Alyce LaViolette, compared them to Jodi, saying, well, they all have lying in common. Are you kidding me? We`re going to debate that.

Now, back into court where Alyce LaViolette, who has called Jodi a victim and Travis, the victim, an abuser is facing some angry questions from the jury. Let`s listen.


LAVIOLETTE: There was another visit, I think, within three or four -- I can`t tell you exactly, that I spent another two days and then I came out early, before my daughter`s wedding, and spent part of a day with Jodi.

So, it was over, I believe four different visits. There were four different visits or five different visits. I`m not exactly sure; I don`t have my calendar with me. And each visit was either -- the first time it was eight hours or six or seven hours, and the next time was a couple of -- six or seven hour days, I believe. There`s one time that was, like, three or four hours. So it was -- it was spread out a little bit.

JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING OVER TRIAL: "Regarding the argument in the car between Jodi and Travis in March of 2008, you stated that Travis `slapped her across the face,` quote unquote. Is that exactly what Jodi told you?"

LAVIOLETTE: No, it isn`t exactly what she told me. I think it was on the jaw. But I think about that as the face. So I just -- I said "slapped across the face." What was most important to me is the slap.


STEPHENS: Sustained. "Please state how confident you are that Jodi did not lie to you."

LAVIOLETTE: That Jodi did not lie to me about -- about what?

STEPHENS: "Did not lie to you."

LAVIOLETTE: Like ever?

I don`t believe she lied to me about significant things. I don`t have reason to believe she lied to me. I don`t have evidence that supports she lied to me. Is it possible she lied to me about some things? It`s possible. When I look at the issue of abuse...


STEPHENS: Overruled, you may continue.

LAVIOLETTE: What I came in to do was really to look at the issues of domestic violence. And when I look at the -- the issues of domestic violence, and not this little detail or that detail, but when looking at the issue of domestic violence, I found compelling evidence for domestic violence or I would not be here.


STEPHENS: Sustained. "You denied a vague connection between Mr. Alexander`s childhood and his behavior. Can you describe this connection for us?"

LAVIOLETTE: I actually don`t think it`s vague at all. The most -- the most significant factor with people who are abusive in their adult relationships as they`re growing up in abusive relationships. Now, a lot of people have grown up in abusive relationships, and it`s kind of a matter of degree.

But the worst kind of childhood abuse is usually associated with the most difficulty in having a successful, intimate relationship and a non- abusive intimate relationship.

And Mr. Alexander`s childhood is incredibly abusive. There are situations where his father kicked the door down with him on the other side of it. He was thrown across the room. He talked about being beaten by his mother. He talked about not having food to eat. He talked about living in a camper shell. He talked about his mother being -- sleeping off a meth high for days and his father being gone. He talked about his father and mother being abusive with each other. He talked about the neglect, of finding a piece of moldy bread to eat and he ate it, about being afraid to wake...


STEPHENS: Sustained.

LAVIOLETTE: The connection is that, when you are submitted and exposed to that kind of violence, you learn about survival and, in fact, it`s often called by Bruce Perry, called chronic combat readiness. That a child who grows up in that situation can see threat in things that other people don`t see threat in, can be hyper-vigilant, can be in a survival mode.

And part of that survival mode is the world as it affects me. So you have to look out for yourself in that kind of situation. There`s a direct link between what you`re exposed to and -- and how you handle it, especially if there is no intervention, nobody to help you learn to handle it any differently.

STEPHENS: "In the April 2008 incident, you stated Jodi did not fight back because she did not want to hurt Travis. Are you saying she would rather lay there and possibly die than fight back?"

LAVIOLETTE: Unless somebody believes that they`re going to be hurt or there are a lot of people who don`t fight back. Either they`re afraid...


STEPHENS: "Are you saying that Jodi would rather lay there and possibly die rather than fight back?"

LAVIOLETTE: I don`t know what she was thinking. She said she didn`t want to hurt him, and she knew she would have to hurt him.

STEPHENS: "Just because a person may appear to be controlling, does that automatically mean they are physically abusive?"

LAVIOLETTE: No, it doesn`t. You can have somebody who`s controlling and never lays a hand on anybody, but they manipulate and psychologically control.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to pause and debate it. There are many, many questions from the jurors in Arizona. They can ask questions. Here are some of them. Most of them quite hostile, it would seem. Did Jodi exaggerate to help her case? Can Jodi be seen as a perpetrator? On and on.

It looked like Jodi Arias was almost crying at one point. Let`s debate it. Jordan Rose for the prosecution, should she be seeing her life flash before her eyes?

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: I think she is. Here now we`ve had the jury ask questions twice. And both times they`re very, very slanted towards the prosecution`s case. She`s got to be worried. I was a little concerned when juror No. 5 was let go that she might be the strongest juror for the prosecution, but it seems...


ROSE: ... that these jurors like Travis.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Evangeline Gomez for the defense?

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not at all. We can`t generalize, Jane. I mean, this could be the work of one or two jurors, who have in their mind, she`s guilty. We don`t know that it`s every juror who has an issue with her or every juror who questioned her. So we just have to take it for what it is, and that`s it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`ll see what it is at the very end. But it doesn`t look good. It would appear. Look at that crime scene. Did defense attorney Jennifer Willmott take it too far today when she hammered this defense witness about Travis Alexander, the man seen dead there in his own shower and his so-called lies? Did she almost seem to blame the victim for his own violent death?


WILLMOTT: Lied about his virginity.


WILLMOTT: Lied about his virginity to his church?


WILLMOTT: Is there deception there?


WILLMOTT: And is that same deception something that went on, with his own friends believing that he was a virgin?


WILLMOTT: And did that same deception go on with his own family believing that he was a virgin?

LAVIOLETTE: As far as I know.




STEPHENS: "Do you think that Jodi could have lied to you to help her case?"

"Was it possible friends and family may have embellished in an effort to help her?"

"Is it possible that Jodi could have also been a perpetrator in her relationship with Travis?"

"Is it possible Jodi could be guilty of psychological abuse toward Travis?"

"Could it be that Travis` actions be considered defensive rather than abusive?"


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So many questions that appear hostile toward the defendant. Look at Jodi sitting there in court as these questions are asked. She`s on the verge of tears. You can really tell that she is upset.

Let`s go to Beth Karas, correspondent of "In Session." You have just emerged from the courtroom. Give us a sense, because we just debated it. Is this a representation of the jury as a whole or could this be a faction within the jury?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Well, it`s at least a fact from within the jury. It is definitely a fact that not all the jurors are submitting questions and that the questions are not a list of, you know, that they`ve come up with by talking among themselves. I mean, they`re at least not supposed to be doing that. They submit questions throughout the cross-examination -- I didn`t see any questions from them during the direct examination -- as well as the redirect.

So, I think that perhaps all of this is just wearing on everyone. One of Travis Alexander`s sisters cried a lot yesterday. It was just taking its toll on her and then perhaps the same for Jodi Arias. But I must say, LaViolette is answering the questions, like, "It`s possible" to a lot of these questions she`s being asked. "Is it possible Jodi embellished?" "Yes, it`s possible. I didn`t see evidence of it." She has to say that, because if she were to say, "No, it`s not possible," she would lose all credibility.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, thank you for that, Beth Karas. Let`s go back into court to hear more of this testimony, more of these jurors` questions. And then we`re going to talk to somebody who has experienced domestic abuse and is following this case. What does she think? Let`s go back to court.


STEPHENS: Sustained. "Are you aware if any of Travis`s ex- girlfriends besides Jodi has said Travis was physically abusive toward them?"

LAVIOLETTE: There are no ex-girlfriends that I have read who say that Travis has been physically abusive to them.

STEPHENS: "Is it possible that the instant message between Jodi and Travis on May 10, 2008, regarding his temper was a running joke between the two of them?"

LAVIOLETTE: It certainly didn`t sound like it.

STEPHENS: "In the May 26, 2008, text messages and instant messages between Travis and Jodi, if Jodi was that upset with what Travis was saying to her, why didn`t she stop talking to him right then?"

LAVIOLETTE: Well, I don`t know, except that...

MARTINEZ: Objection. Foundation, it`s unknown.

STEPHENS: Prosecutor, she was going to explain what she did know.

You can follow up with that. Sustained. "Other than Jodi, did you interview anyone else face-to-face?"

LAVIOLETTE: No, I did not.

STEPHENS: "Are you aware that Jodi`s grandparents` house was broken into on May 28, 2008, only two days after the fight they had through instant messages and text messages?"

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, I`m aware that the grandparents` house was broken into.

STEPHENS: "We have heard of different females Travis talked to between December 2007 through May of 2008. Wasn`t it a known fact between Jodi and Travis that he was trying to find someone he could marry?"

LAVIOLETTE: It was a known fact that he was trying to find someone to marry. I just -- the conversations...


STEPHENS: Overruled. You may finish your response.

LAVIOLETTE: The conversations would not lead you to believe that these were trying to woo somebody or court somebody to find out if they could marry them. They were very flirtatious from the beginning, sexual from the beginning.

STEPHENS: "You stated one person has more power than the other person. Can that be because the other person gives it, rather than because the one person commands it?"

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, it can. What I find though, is that if you`re not...

MARTINEZ: Objection.

STEPHENS: Overruled.

LAVIOLETTE: That you don`t have to be abusive because somebody gives you power. Because somebody is less able to take power than the other person. It doesn`t mean the other person has to be abusive. And frankly, if you`re in a relationship that...


STEPHENS: Sustained.

"Have any of the women with whom Travis had a relationship other than Jodi stated that Travis abused them psychologically, verbally or physically?"

LAVIOLETTE: Lisa Andrews talked about him, sort of putting her down, not respecting her values, saying that if she wanted to be a teacher she would be a good teacher, but -- but it would suck if that`s what she chose to do with her life. So there were women -- there was another woman who complained that he said nobody would ever...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to take a very short break there. At the heart of this case, was Jodi abused by Travis who, of course, was stabbed numerous times. His throat was slit and he was shot by Jodi Arias. Or was she the aggressor? And that`s what these jurors with their excellent questions are trying to figure out. I wish the prosecutor and the defense attorney had asked some of these questions during their cross and direct.

Now on the other side of the break, we`re going to talk to a woman -- we`re going to show her right now live -- who has been a victim of domestic violence. She`s also followed this case closely, watching our coverage. And she`s going to weigh in. What does she think, on the other side?


WILLMOTT: Given all of these lies that she told after June 4 of 2008, do they define her for you? Do they cause you problems in her believability?

LAVIOLETTE: No, they don`t.

WILLMOTT: Why is that?

LAVIOLETTE: Because if Miss Arias was a really good liar, she would have planned a really good lie, and she didn`t.




LAVIOLETTE: He has a significant amount to lose. He has his standing with his profession. His two closest friends are, one of them has his PPL division. And that`s where he earns his money. And he is well thought of there. He`s a motivational speaker there. If his private life came out, I think it would destroy a lot of that. If he would lose his priesthood standing.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s almost as if the defense, who tried to paint Jodi Arias as justified in killing Travis Alexander, is trying to paint him as having a motive to kill her. What does that have to do with what they claim was Travis lunging at her because she dropped the camera, I don`t know. But they are definitely trashing the victim here.

I want to go to one of our very special guests, Angie Ocheta. You have followed this trial very closely. You also were a victim of domestic violence. Tell us your thoughts as a victim, a survivor of domestic violence, what your thoughts are on this case and this whole issue of was he abusive.

ANGIE OCHETA, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SURVIVOR: First of all, I do want to mention that the gentleman that was abusive to me was abusive in every relationship he had and is currently abusive to the woman that he`s with now. Unlike Travis Alexander, he was never abusive to any other woman. So that to me, is a red flag.

It was a ten-year relationship where he was mentally, physically and emotionally very abusive. And I finally got the courage to leave. It was very hard.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think -- do you think -- well, first of all, I applaud you and I`m glad you`re here to be able to talk about it.

OCHETA: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But do you think Jodi Arias is a genuine victim of abuse, or was she taking..?

OCHETA: Absolutely not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell me why.

OCHETA: No. I just -- first of all, she wasn`t with him more than, what, a year. Really wasn`t a year. I was with this gentleman for over ten years. Just, she`s not genuine able to jump into another man`s bed like nothing? I mean, just the way she portrays herself. How, basically, she thinks she`s above everybody. I don`t see it, personally, me having been a victim myself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. OK. You have heard it from somebody who is a survivor of domestic violence.

Stand by, Angie. We may have some more questions as we monitor these questions from the jurors. In Arizona, jurors can ask questions. Let`s go back into the courtroom where the judge is reading juror questions to Alyce LaViolette, the domestic violence expert for the defense.

LAVIOLETTE: There was another woman who complained that he said nobody would ever...


STEPHENS: Who are you referring to?

LAVIOLETTE: Nicole. Who said that...

MARTINEZ: Objection, foundation. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

STEPHENS: Overruled, you may continue.

LAVIOLETTE: Who said that Mr. Alexander`s...


STEPHENS: Overruled.

LAVIOLETTE: That Mr. Alexander told her that no one would ever want to date her because she was like her boyfriend, that she was like the man that she ended up being with. And what seems important to me here is that these are not long relationships.


STEPHENS: Sustained.

"Amid all of the interviews with family and friends of either Travis or Jodi, did anyone mention either concern or suspicion of abuse regarding Travis or Jodi?"

LAVIOLETTE: Matt McCartney mentioned that he believed that Jodi had confided in him and that he knew there was verbal abuse by talking to Jodi and that he suspected that there was physical abuse, but he didn`t know.

STEPHENS: "You have used the term `survivor` several times during your testimony. Could you please define this term?"

LAVIOLETTE: We used to use the term "victim" with domestic violence. And what people have started using is the term "survivor," because it has a more positive sound and -- and because people do survive these relationships and it`s a more powerful word than "victim."

STEPHENS: "Could a survivor also be a perpetrator?"

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, a survivor could be a perpetrator, but for the most part, when I was answering that question before, there`s a thing called violent resistance where someone who is basically the victim of domestic violence lashes out.

There`s also a term that has been coined and is used in California -- and I`m not sure if it`s used here -- called dominant aggressor, which is what the police department tries to look at. And that`s to determine who actually is the primary offender in this relationship, who is the person with the most power in the relationship.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re taking a brief break from testimony. We`re going to be back with more.

This is not a whodunit. We know that Jodi Arias, the defendant, killed Travis Alexander, slitting his throat, stabbing him 29 times, shooting him in the face. It`s a "why done it?" And this is what the big debate is. Did she plan and carry out this murder because he was taking another woman to Cancun? Or was she there and, ooh, he lunged at her because she dropped the camera, and she accidentally shot him and then goes into a fog and doesn`t remember the rest?

That`s what we`re trying to sort out. Juror questions seem very skeptical of her story. We`re going to take a short break and be back with more in a moment.


WILLMOTT: Mr. Alexander portrayed himself as a virgin. Based on your information, was he a pretext (ph) holder in this church?


WILLMOTT: He`s really graphic about what he wants to do to Miss Arias. Right?

LAVIOLETTE: He`s leading a double life.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there deception there?

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE EXPERT: Yes, he is a significant amount to lose. If his private life came out, I think it would destroy a lot of that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he still dating Miss Andrews?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After Miss Andrews was he pursuing a woman named Mimi Hall?


UNIDENTFIEID FEMALE: An while he`s pursuing Mimi Hall, was he having these sexual conversations with these other women?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes, it`s a secret for lots of them, and it` something that nobody else would be aware of. He`s leading a double life. Anger and rage is normally directed at the people that you feel the safest with. In this case, Miss Arias is the safest target.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there you hear it. The defense saying Travis Alexander, the victim, led a double life. And the jury, in their questions, they don`t seem to be buying it.

Take a look at Jodi Arias. She looks like she`s crying after she listens to question after question from the jury. In Arizona, jurors can ask questions and they`re asking tough questions.

Selin Darkalstanian, you`re our producer, our senior producer, there on the ground. You`ve been in court. What is the mood like?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, SR. PRODUCER, "JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": The jury does not buy Jodi`s story. Jane, every single time a witness gets off the stand and we get to hear the questions, these questions are skeptical of Jodi. And they`re not buying the story, and they`re asking Alyce why she`s buying the argument without hearing the other side of the argument.

Travis`s family is sitting in front row. Again, it`s pretty tough for them because there are a few -- Alyce did go into Travis`s family and his childhood, and how he was abused, how he had to eat moldy bread. She brought up some really tough things today in court and you could tell the family, some of them, again, were shaking their head no. And you could tell it was tough for them hear.

Jodi`s mom on the other side of the courtroom writing in her notebook, taking notes. We don`t know what she`s doing with the notes, but she continues to take notes. And just a very tense atmosphere as we`re really beginning to understand what this jury thinks of Alyce LaViolette.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yep, these questions say a lot. Let`s go back into court. More of them for Alyce LaViolette, the defense domestic violence expert.


SHERRY STEPHENS, JUDGE: You stated there was nothing in Jodi`s journals, e-mails, et cetera, indicating she was jealous. Wouldn`t that be consistent with the belief in the law of attraction?

LAVIOLETTE: It could be, although she listed things about being depressed, about her being a shell of her former self. So although for the most part in her journal, she didn`t try to list negative things, negative things came out in her journal. Negative things, some nonspecific kind of negative things about Mr. Alexander being cruel or --


STEPHENS: Sustained. Could a female abuse, batter or terrorize a man to the point of killing him?

LAVIOLETTE: Could -- I`m sorry, I didn`t understand that.

STEPHENS: Could a female abuse, batter or terrorize a man to the point of killing him?

LAVIOLETTE: Yes. Women can be perpetrators. The percentage --


STEPHENS: Overruled. You may continue.

LAVIOLETTE: When you look at something like the continuum or high end battering, when you look at the national surveys of households and families, which is a non-criminal justice survey, the Violence Against Women that includes 8,000 men and 8,000 women, the emergency room surveys, the FBI unified crime reports, you still see overwhelmingly in violent crimes, where there`s --


STEPHNES: Sustained. We keep hearing him and perpetrator in conjunction with one another but couldn`t a perpetrator be a she?

LAVIOLETTE: A perpetrator can be a she.

STEPHENS: How many times did you meet with Jodi and on what dates?

LAVIOLETTE: Well, I tried to answer that before and I can`t tell you the dates without my calendar. Except for the first date, I think it was October of 2011. There was, I know, a time in August because that`s when my daughter got married and there were two other times.

In fact, I think when Mr. Martinez interviewed me, I met with her then. That was in November, but I`m not certain of all the dates. I would have to have my calendar.

STEPHENS: During your testimony --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re going to take a brief pause. More testimony in a moment.

Meantime, we`ve got breaking news for you. It now appears Jodi Arias is using Twitter as her own personal P.R. agent. In tweets reprotedly done via a supporter, she denies having a boyfriend and tweets in response to rumors, quote, "No, I do not have a girlfriend. After everything I have been through, it`s amazing I`m not gay."

And about popping a pill in open court, Jodi tweets, "For crying out loud, it`s (INAUDIBLE), you know, for migraines."

The most telling tweets are the very thinly-veiled jabs at the prosecutor, making fun of his short height. Quote, "Those afflicted with Little Man Syndrome taints society`s perception of genuinely good men who happen to be vertically challenged."

Let`s debate it. Attacking the prosecutor on Twitter, a sign of times or totally outrageous? Jordan Rose.

ROSE: Totally outrageous, but I also have a hard time believing Jodi has anything to do with this. I mean, she`s limited in what she has in jail. She doesn`t have her own ability to tweet. And how much is she talking to a supporter? So I have to believe this is an enthusiastic supporter who just wants to blow up Juan Martinez.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she has access to a phone and we believe she may be talking to a supporter.

Evangeline (ph) Gomez?

GOMEZ: This is one time where I may agree with the prosecutor. Listen, I have the same kind of skepticism. I don`t know she`s actually communicating with a person saying, you know what? Put these tweets out.

But what is interesting is when you talk about a public relation, one of the concerns I have is these videotapes of these -- that the prosecutor`s office has perhaps put out?

VEELZ-MITCHELL: I have to give Jordan Rose a chance to respond. Is it dirty pool to put out the interrogation tapes of mom and dad? And Jodi?

ROSE: No! No, no. I wish somehow they would have been admissible in court because then we could see her dad calling her a liar since she was 14 years old. I mean, these things we see here on your show, Jane, it`s unfortunate that some of those aren`t being viewed by the jury because it would certainly strengthen the prosecution`s case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, we got to leave it right there.

On the other side, more testimony. A very passionate subject. Stay right there.


911 CALLER: He`s dead. He`s in the shower.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had -- appeared to be dried blood on his neck. Appeared to be a neck wound from ear to ear. His face was dark purple, almost black.

911 OPERATOR: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?

911 CALLER: Yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that`s been bothering him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander. The million dollar question is what would have forced her to do it.





LAVIOLETTE: Lance Armstrong lied over many years; Bill Clinton, lied. People lie when they are afraid.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, so believe it or not, this witness is comparing Jodi Arias, who admits to stabbing Travis Alexander, to a former president and disgraced cyclist. I find that, of all the things I have heard, the most absurd and, yes, outrageous.

I want to go back to Ange Ocheita who has followed this trial closely and she is also a survivor of domestic violence. Angie, this witness keeps making the point that, oh well, Travis is afraid of losing something, losing his reputation if the secret of their kinky sex is revealed, and that`s apparently why he - fill in the blank -- does whatever he does that then makes her justified in killing him.

Do you buy that argument? And if not, why not?

ANGIE OCHEITA, IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP FOR 10 YEARS: I personally don`t because I was in that position myself at one point. And I never, ever, ever even ran through my head to do such a horrible, horrific thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So do you buy that, oh, she grabbed the gun from the closet, even though friends say --

OCHEITA: Oh, no.


OCHEITA: No. No, I do not. I do not. I feel it was completely premeditated. The fact his best friend, his family never knew -- he never owned a gun, there were no bullets found. There was no evidence found that he owned a gun. I`m really sure that she stole it from her grandparent`s house and brought it with her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are almost like a pseudo-juror because you have been following this case from the beginning. You have nothing, you`re not involved in anything. You`re a member of the public. Thank you so much Angie Ocheita. I`m so glad you survived.

OCHEITA: Thank you for having me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course. Keep watching.

We have seen so much video of the Jodi Arias` police interrogation tapes. I started to wonder what it`s like to be questioned by cops, to be grilled. I went to Fairfield, Connecticut`s police department to find out. I was grilled by two excellent top flight (ph) detectives about a fake crime. We pretended that while walking my dogs. I got into a fight with a woman who threw a plastic bottle into a regular trash can instead of the blue recycle one. Watch what happens when they use the either or tactic on me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: How long are they going to leave me in here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not happy to be here?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Get me out of here.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know that something happened in Central Park. We know you are involved. We want to get your side of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The story painted to us by the other person makes you look like a monster. Are you a monster?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I feel like she attacked me. I said lady, this is where you put the plastic bottle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Either you are a maniac who goes out and does this regularly and in this one particular incident got caught on camera. You could be a crazy person or this is a situation where someone pushes your buttons. And it happens to every one of us.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All I was doing was pointing out here is the responsible thing to do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need you to accept responsibility for what happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Okay, I did it. I threw that bottle at that lady. I`m not proud of what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are a great technique in an interview. Because what you`re doing is you are posing two possible scenarios for the suspect. They`re either a horrible monster or they`re a normal person that made a bad decision. Either one is an admission of guilt.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This either/or tactic was effective. I was confronted with a choice, are you a monster? Of course not. Then did you make a one- time only mistake in choosing the lesser of two evils, I was cajoled into admitting that yes, I did the crime. This is a classic technique they use, either/or. To learn more police interrogation tactics and see more of my somewhat cooky interrogation that mirrors the interrogation we have all come to know and be fascinated by. More testimony on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His insistence to others that Jodi stalked him. His insistence to others that Jodi wouldn`t leave him alone. It was always at his demand and his beckoning that Jodi spend time with him.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: And some things that the jury did not get to see, and that was some of the behavior of Jodi Arias, in the interrogation room when she did for example, the head stand. Now, some may say that goes against her being a battered woman who was emotionally traumatized. If she is being light-hearted and callous, about this horror. Let`s go back into court for more juror questions of Alyce LaViolette, the domestic violence expert for the defense.


STEPHENS: During your testimony, you concurred that many things actually happened, such as when Travis was supposedly caught with photos of young boys. Aren`t you, in fact, only basing this on what Jodi told you?

LAVIOLETTE: I`m basing -- yes, I am basing that on what Ms. Arias told me. And on those e-mails -- or on the sex tape when he talks about corking the pot--


STEPHENS: Overruled, you may follow up with that.

LAVIOLETTE: Corking the pot --

STEPHENS: (INAUDIBLE) Objection I`m going to allow your attorney to follow up.


STEPHENS: You claim that Jodi, not getting medical attention for her finger or other injuries caused by Travis is consistent with other battered women, because they do not want to ruin the perpetrator`s reputation or get them in trouble. What would prevent the battered person from getting medical attention and simply lying about the cause?

LAVIOLETTE: There are people who get medical attention and lie about the cause. If there is any suspicion and the doctor interviews, you can wind up sort of being stuck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, beyond the scope.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And wow, what a stressful time, as well, for this defense domestic violence expert who has been on the stand for days now, being grilled. First by the prosecutor in his cross examination, and now by the jurors themselves, a quick break and more testimony on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Criminal defense attorney Evangeline Gomez, what does the defense do given these hostile questions and it is the tail end of the defense`s case?

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jean, I think the domestic violence expert is doing an excellent job in responding. She is lending a lot of credibility. The other thing that is going to happen is you will have questions the defense is going to ask that is going to try to reconcile any discrepancy that they think these jurors who may be asking the questions are feeling. Again, I don`t think this is going to destroy the case at all. You do have some jurors who are out there trying to create an image. And I think the defense just needs to continue to do its job in defending her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there. Thank you for that. We don`t know what is going to happen next, except Nancy Grace, who`s next.