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No End to Courtroom Combat

Aired April 15, 2013 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: All right. We`re getting right to it this evening.

My co-host this week, Teresa Strasser. Thank you for joining us this evening.

I am frankly beside myself with the story in Boston. Three people have died. More than a hundred injured in a terror attack, the marathon, amputations. Physicians are reporting that ball bearings were used as shrapnel being pulled out of people`s viscera and limbs.

We`re going to give you update later on the show. In fact, I suspect we`ll be bouncing back and forth a little bit between the goings on in Boston and what`s going on in the trial with Jodi Arias.

Teresa, I don`t know about you, but I lived in Boston, went to college in New England. I don`t know. Between Newtown and this, I don`t understand the world I live in sometimes.

TERESA TRASSER, HOST: I just have a queasy, helpless feeling, and I doesn`t know what to do with it. I thought about you today, because I think one of your kids is at college in that area, and I know you went to school there too.

PINSKY: Yes, I`m very connected to New England. I have a child there nearby in college. And it`s kind of an interesting feeling I have, which is not just helpless, but a simmering anger with nowhere to direct it. And I don`t know what to do about that. Hopefully we`ll learn more as this goes on this evening.

But -- and I`m also hoping to get in touch with Anderson Cooper who`s on the ground there in Boston. We`ll reach in to him, trying to get him on the program this evening, too. Until we do, we`re going to head off to the Jodi Arias trial for a few minutes here.

I got my forensic and clinical psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney to, and attorney Lauren Lake.

The contentious proceedings continued from last week. Take a look. We`ll get you up to date here.


JUDGE: Do you consider someone who says no jury will ever convict me to be a person with low self-esteem?

WITNESS: It sounds like a really foolish statement to me.

Psychological abuse, and it`s being recognized now. There are books written on it now that are starting to look at verbal abuse, emotional abuse, coercive controlling behavior.

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Isn`t a white lie the same thing as a big lie because they both involve misrepresentation?

WITNESS: If I`m asked by someone I like if this makes them look fat and I say, no, that`s a little white lie.

MARTINEZ: Some lies you`ll consider white lies. Some are medium type lies and some are very big lies.

And you would agree, ma`am, that your evaluation in this case is defective because you only spoke to defendant who has lied and nothing is relevant?

WITNESS: I would disagree. I have a great dad. He was here yesterday. I have a great brother. I have looked at my friends who have been in the front row and Maria there and I smiled at them.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: It was found to my understanding in 2010. My aunt found it. Actually, she`s sitting over on the front row. There are very few individuals that I love as much as I love my mom.

I have unconditional love for my dad. And I find that I`m able to love him better when we interact a little bit less. He didn`t belt as often as my mom used to belt. My dad was very intimidating, so I don`t think he needed to hit us quite as hard.

UNIDENTIFEID MALE: The eye, we see as reflective in exhibit 159, this is the focus on that on Mr. Alexander`s left eye.

MARTINEZ: This proposed evidence is not reliable. If 10 people look at it, how many of those ten people will think it`s a dog? How many of those 10 people will think it`s a gopher or any other sort of animal. It`s the state`s position that this is really voodoo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the standard. Mr. Martinez says, hey, I see a dog so this isn`t admissible.

The state said, well, they can show the first three pictures, but Mr. Martinez is afraid of the bite in this dog, I guess.

MARTINEZ: Nor that I said that I saw a dog. It looked a German shepherd. Perhaps, I would probably see a Mexican Chihuahua. That`s the problem with this particular evidence.

I say it`s a waste of everybody`s time except maybe for defense counsel. Perhaps they could add a couple more pennies to their kettle.


PINSKY: All that was going on in the courtroom today. Teresa, they`re trying to figure out what is something they`re going to allow for the jury. And then, Jodi and the lawyers play musical chairs. They actually were put -- she was put in the jury box with Travis Alexander`s family for a hearing without the jury in order for them to see some screen, I guess. Then they were moved to the point where it got really kind of weird and too close for comfort.

Beth Karas from "In Session", what was that all about? You were there. We were looking at that video sort of sped up. My understanding is the family got very upset.

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes. Two of his sisters were seated just feet behind Jodi Arias, and they were crying. And his brother Steven was there as well.

And the judge thought again and said let me move Jodi Arias in front of the clerk so she could see a projection screen the defense had brought in that would have made the resolution a little better so they could see this enhanced eyeball of Travis Alexander to see what the witness says he saw, which he says is just corroborates Jodi Arias` testimony that she was holding a camera when she took one of those last pictures of Travis Alexander alive. He was holding the camera, not a gun or a knife also in her hand.

Well, the parties stipulated to that. He`s not testifying. It`s just too much.

PINSKY: Can we show the eye picture that they were talking about in court today? And by the way -- there`s his eye, but they went in and focused in. There they go -- there -- there`s Jodi, holding a camera? Or could it be a knife? Or could it be a gun? Or could it be the Chihuahua?

TRASSER: Yes. It could be a gopher, Dr. Drew. It could be a gopher.

PINSKY: It does look like Casper or something. But, Beth, they`re not going to allow this. Is that right? Number one? And number two --


PINSKY: It seemed like it was getting pretty heady, pretty cantankerous between Martinez and Nurmi (ph) today, was it not?

KARAS: Oh, yes, because they were having a hearing outside the presence of the jury about a mistrial motion, actually two mistrial motions. The judge denied both of them. And that was after this testimony. That was after this testimony that was heard outside the hearing of the jury.

They reached an agreement. Since the defense said, well, you know, this figure in the eyeball corroborates Jodi Arias` testimony, the state`s like, OK. We would just stipulate. That means we agree she`s not holding a gun or a knife at that time she`s taking that particular picture.

PINSKY: All right.

KARAS: Of course, they`ll argue.


KARAS: It comes in her waistband or somewhere.

PINSKY: By, let`s remind ourselves when she shot him it was sort of up down, maybe it was -- I don`t know. Any way.

Thank you, Beth.

All right. Mark, let me go up to you. What were they thinking putting Jodi right behind -- right in front of Travis` family?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Goodness gracious. The same thing that they have been thinking from the beginning of the trail and that is insuring that gets a fair trial which means she get does see and hear all of the evidence. But it`s unbelievably troubling that literally within smelling distance, while these people are watching photos of their loved one literally in his last moments there she is right of them. That was a big blunder and that disturbs.

PINSKY: And, Lauren, isn`t it kind of a ridiculous piece of evidence, this blob in his eye?

LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Well, yes. I try to give a defense perspective on this show, Dr. Drew. And quite frankly, the hate mail is rolling in. But I have to keep it real. The stipulation that they arrived at does lend some points to the defense in that OK, at that moment she`s just holding the camera, so at least we know that one thing, one thing this girl said is true.

However, it`s an uphill battle. And the evidence against her is overwhelming. I don`t think this is going to make the difference.

PINSKY: And, by the way --

LAKE: What they`re trying to do was save her life.

PINSKY: We know she`s holding the camera because she took the picture. The question is what else might she be holding also? I`m just saying. It was so silly.

Cheryl, I was thinking about the following. His siblings have been in that courtroom every day for months. They have to stop working. They have to get dragged through the mud about their brother. Can you imagine? How much longer can they take this?

CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew, this has got to be absolute torture for Travis` family, and to be presenting this kind of evidence, you know, there`s an ink blot test that psychologist like me give called the Rorschach. And the whole point is that you look at it and whatever is inside you you project onto the inkblot and see what you see.

I`ve had people say they`re ought butterflies. And that`s not a butterfly, that`s the devil. You know, looking at the same thing. This is like a Rorschach, looking at the outline in the middle of the eye. I`ve never seen anything like this.

PINSKY: Yes, crazy.

Tracy, you have been following this case all along. We`ve been watching this poor thing, this poor victim get dragged through the mud.

Teresa, you have been following?

TRASSER: Yes. I really, I could not believe the awkward seating today. I mean, a low level wedding planner would know better than to put these people in close proximity. There`s awkward seating like my parents are divorced and now they`re at my ballet recital or in junior high and I don`t know where to sit.

But there`s putting a murder victim`s poor sisters right next to the woman who killed him.

PINSKY: Right. Not alleged to kill him, known to have killed their brother. She admits she killed their brother.

All right. Thank you to this panel.

Next up, let me ask the control room, do we -- any luck getting -- OK, we`re still trying to get in touch with Anderson in Boston.

Next up, we`re going to stay with Jodi. We`re going to talk about her five boyfriends and her bad choices. The behavior bureau is going to look at her history with men.

And later, Jodi the intellectual. What does letter choice of books reveal about her? And is it the case that someone with her sort of personality profile might be smarter, in fact.

Be right back.



ARIAS: After I removed some pages that I`d written in about John Dixon, because it caused me so much --

MARTINEZ: One of the people you liked was Brian Burns, right?


MARTINEZ: Brian Burns was this individual that you had a romantic interest in, right?


MARTINEZ: One of the first people you called once you got your phone charged was Matt McCartney, right?


MARTINEZ: He`s an ally, right?

ARIAS: I don`t know what you mean by ally.

MARTINEZ: Somebody who won`t betray you

ARIAS: No, he`s betrayed me.

MARTINEZ: You did go and talk to Mr. Juarez, correct?


MARTINEZ: And you had these letters and you compare to them with it, with the letters, right?


MARTINEZ: You were comfortable enough to confront Bobby, right?

ARIAS: Absolutely.

MARTINEZ: Because you had a relationship, right?


MARTINEZ: You say you are not confrontational, right?

ARIAS: No. It`s because I wasn`t allowed to be confrontational with Travis. He crossed the room and he started shaking me and he said I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sick of you. He slammed me on the floor, at the foot of his bed, he said don`t act like that hurts, called me a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and kicked me in the ribs.

PINSKY: It is time for the behavior bureau. Back with my co-host Teresa Strasser.

And we`ll be talking more, reminder, about the Boston bombings a bit. Three are dead, at least 17 have very serious, if not critical injuries.

Police are looking for a Penske truck, those yellow rental trucks, that tried to gain access to the site before the blast. But apparently the driver was turned away.

There`s footage that we`ve all been seeing all day. This is just so, so disturbing. And I share the rage that everyone has. We`re going to talk about that in a couple minutes. We`re going to stay focused on the Arias trial in just a second.

Jodi, boyfriends, bad choices.

Teresa, five men, five bad relationships.

I want to introduce my panel. I`ve got Cheryl Arutt. She`s joining us. She`s clinical and forensic psychologist. Dr. Drew juror, Katie Wick, and attorney and criminologist, Casey Jordan.

Casey, help me explain to people, one of the questions that keeps coming up for me, in fact, in the show to follow this show, they`re going to be addressing the dysfunction and the relationship between Jodi and Travis.

And my question is, how do we help people understand how people`s pathology gets together. How they find each other and then where it ends up? It`s not healthy people that end up where Travis and Jodi found themselves.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Right. And by all accounts, we have to remember that Travis didn`t have a history of picking bad win. I mean, Jodi wasn`t like almost every woman he ever dated.

It`s almost as if Travis had this little dark side, I mean, it`s really been brought out in the trial. And Jodi could smell that from a mile away. By all accounts, everyone believes that she`s highly manipulative.

And what she would always do is always try to look for a man who was vulnerable to her feminine wiles. And her bad track record that she says with men who exploited her and treated her badly. And remember, this is all Jodi`s version of the story. Virtually, no domestic violence or physical abuse has been documented or corroborated.

But Jodi`s version is that all these men treated her badly. And you get to the idea that she really zoned in on Travis as being the guy that would break her perceived history of abuse. She wanted to marry him. She wanted to have a family with him. And then when he said no, that`s when she turned on him.

So, it isn`t really co-dependency so much as a tango that went back and forth, until it exploded in violence.

PINSKY: And, Casey, I hadn`t had a chance to talk to you about this. But the last time we talked to you is before, say, Dr. Samuels and LaViolette got on the stand. Do you have a feeling the way many of us do, let`s call it confusion at best, why they would choose to believe Jodi Arias?

I mean, you go in, in ha case like that, your first posture is one of doubt and circumspection, no?

JORDAN: Yes, it would be. But, let`s not forget that they are paid consultants, making I think $250 to $300 an hour to talk to her and to be on the stand. And I`m not saying that that sort of income will color your judgment. But once your honor` in as an expert witness doing an expert analysis, most experts will jump in with both feet.

This is just human nature. They want to be good at this. They want to be expert at it. And very often by the time that they might be sucked in with a fondness for the person they`re supposed to be studying, they are so far into it, that they`ve perhaps lost their perspective.

PINSKY: That`s really interesting. Cheryl, do you agree with that? As a forensic psychologist, that the kind of objectivity and the boundaries that are maintained, say, the therapeutic relationship are very different from someone who`s an expert witness?

ARUTT: Yes, I do. I want to say welcome back, Casey. It`s great to see you.

I think that Casey is referring to something called cognitive dissonance where you --

PINSKY: I call it a hired gun, I`m just saying.

ARUTT: That`s a better term, a hired gun. Basically, if you`re looking for something -- I`m going to put it this way. If all you`ve got is a hammer, everything else looks like a nail.

PINSKY: Yes, that`s right. When you`re a hammer, the whole world is a nail.

Katie, do you agree with what we`re saying here, that Jodi has a pattern with guys. They look to me like sort of trauma survivors. Again, we don`t know anything about them, I look at their patterns and stuff.

You know, Abe who we`ve talked to, not a trauma survivor. She likes him, he likes her, but she`ll have none of it, she moves on to the next vulnerable guy.

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW`S JUROR: Yes, Dr. Drew. And I think Jodi wanted one thing. Travis wanted another thing. And she probably knew that -- like people say, you know what? Who cares, the guy had skeletons in his closet. Who doesn`t?

But she did feed off of that. And she knew that she could use that in order to manipulate Travis. And that`s exactly what she did.

I wanted to mention real fast if I can, Dr. Drew, about Alyce testifying. People have said that people need to stop being mean to her. People need to stop saying mean things.

I don`t believe in trashing her and going after her as a person. That`s wrong. However, nobody twisted Alyce`s arm to get on that witness stand and trash Travis Alexander. That was her choice. And if you can`t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

She chose to do this. And she chose to testify against Travis without knowing anything or having no evidence of any abuse.

PINSKY: Let me go back, I want to go back -- thank you, Katie. I want to go back to Casey one more time. We`ve been waiting to talk to you for a couple weeks, Casey. Welcome back also, I want to say as well.

You know, the fact that Travis did have a lot of trauma in his life, and or we know that males that are emotional abuse are prone to sexual compulsion and sexual abuse -- excuse me, sexual addiction sort of thing, sexual compulsions. I talked to a sexual addiction expert and said, you know, this guy may never have expressed that had he not run into the person that evoked that, meaning Jodi.

JORDAN: Yes. I absolutely believe. We know that manipulative people, but particularly people who have sexual aberrations, they have, if you will, a sixth scent. They can almost -- the sense for --

PINSKY: They smell it. They can sense it.

JORDAN: Yes. They can smell it. I don`t mean olfactory smell. But they can smell vulnerability in people. And they do a lot of nonverbal cues. They don`t come out and say do you have fantasies I can fulfill. But they do that tap dance.

And once they figure out somebody is vulnerable, especially like Travis, who has a professional reputation that would leave him extremely vulnerable because he would want to keep it a secret. Once she had that secret on him and he had a lot more to lose than she ever would.


JORDAN: She really did get a grip on him and pull him in further until I think he finally said, well, we flow he said that`s it, you`re a psychopath stalker. I don`t want anything to do with you. And that`s when everything, in Jodi`s mind, had to come to a head.

PINSKY: Absolutely agree.

Next up, I want to address Jodi, the intellectual. She says she had the I.Q. of Einstein. That she`s smarter than everybody else in the room. I want to talk to my panel about whether or not there is evidence that psychopaths or sociopaths have higher intelligence, or do they believe that Jodi does or does not.

And, later, as I said, we`ll get back to the Boston bombings, how people behave in the face of terror and what the poor people of Boston are doing right now.

Be right back.



MARTINEZ: When the defendant was about to be evaluated, isn`t it true that she was happy, because she believe that her I.Q. was as high as Einstein`s. Do you know anything about that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This woman thinks that she`s so smart. She thinks that she`s like smarter than Einstein. And she bumbles around like Frankenstein.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s a very intelligent person. She`s go to the books that she brought to my house and she`s got all these books that I would not even think about reading.

ARIAS: Travis gave me a "Book of Mormon" on Wednesday, the book called "1,000 Places to See Before You Die," "The Law of Attraction." It was a huge philosophy of mine at that time.



PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau. And my co-host Teresa Strasser.

Teresa, you get it, we were showing the books that she should have read, like "Psycho" and inside the mind of Casey Anthony versus the books like, the secret that she did read. You got that?

STRASSER: Yes, I appreciated singing for dummies. Nice touch.

PINSKY: Thank you, Teresa. Thank you.

All right. Now, reminder. I`ve got some -- the bombing coverage of the Boston, what I call the Boston massacre or the Boston marathon massacre whatever you want to call it today. It`s awful.

There are reports that the devices were set off low to the ground so an a lot of the damage they did were people who were low to the ground, like children, one of the three people who died was a child. That`s also why people are losing lower extremities to amputations and irretrievable injuries.

First, though, we are going to go back to Jodi Arias.

Casey, I want to go to you first. I said before the break I was going to talk about intellectual prowess and psychopathy and sociopathy. Would it of be true to say they tend to be intellectually ahead of the pack but not Einsteins like Jodi claims?

JORDAN: Not necessarily, Dr. Drew. There`s a bunch of theories out there. The biggest thing is we need to differentiate. There`s I.Q. or intellect intelligence. Then there`s emotional intelligence, which people like Jodi clearly have a deficit with. That`s what makes them so callous and manipulative.

And then you`ve got verbal intelligence. It`s not street smarts versus book smarts. I did not see anything by Stephen Hawking on her book shelf.

PINSKY: Right.

JORDAN: I didn`t see --

PINSKY: I`m sure Aristotle and Pythagoras (ph) were right behind the secret. I`m certain of that.

JORDAN: I don`t think so. But I don`t believe that she`s got a huge intellect at all. And we know she`s a high school dropout.

But I do think she`s smart because you have to really be good at logic and rationalization if you`re going to manipulate people. The question is which came first? Did she actually improve her intellect as part of her manipulation because she`s overcompensating for a deficit in emotional intelligence?

PINSKY: And, Cheryl, I was thinking about the experts -- this is on the stand.

One of the things about sociopath is they`re entertaining. They can be quite likeable.

ARUTT: Very charming.

PINSKY: Yes, I had a nurse I worked with. Whenever she said, oh, I really like that patient, we were all be mortified, because we that`s diagnostic. She happened to be somebody responded to sociopaths.

How we respond to people tells us a lot about their personality construct, Cheryl?

ARUTT: Well, as Casey was talking about the different kinds of intelligence, there are so many different types of intelligence. But a sociopath is looking at a very narrow bandwidth. They`re looking to read people, to be able to mimic their emotions back in a believable way for a very specific purpose in strategy.

So, their thinking doesn`t get complicated by a lot of their own emotional reaction, guilt, fear.

PINSKY: Anxiety.

ARUTT: Dissonance, anxiety.


ARUTT: So, they`re kind of have a clear path for the mission that they`re on. And they kind of think the rest of us are idiots for playing by this rule book that they think is unnecessary and makes us fools.

PINSKY: Katie, you`re in the room with her. Does their all fit with how you experience with her in the courtroom?

WICK: Absolutely. The first few day when is she was on the stand we said whoa, she`s very articulate. She could possibly pull this off.

That was until Juan Martinez got ahold of her. And it`s really fascinating to me, because it`s almost as if the moment one challenges Jodi, her anger comes out, and she loses the smartness, so to speak, and it kind of takes over. So, she came off as very, very articulate, very smart.

I agree with what the others are saying. It`s not book smart. She`s very methodical. I agree 100 percent. And it`s funny because one of the things I would love to see her book collection in jail.

PINSKY: Yes. It`s -- I`m sure not that impressive.

Teresa, do you have any questions for the behavior bureau?

STRASSER: Yes. I do.

OK. Here is my question. I know that there are psychopaths and there are sociopaths and it`s not the same thing. A lot of sociopaths are charming people live normal lives and are not violent. What`s really the difference?

PINSKY: Who wants to take that? Go to Casey. The sociopaths, when we say they`re very charming, the sociopaths tend to be the ones. The psychopaths have a brain problem. Casey go ahead, take it.

CASEY JORDAN, PH.D., CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, I got to tell you. This is an ongoing debate. Nobody ever really agrees. But, think of it as a spectrum or trajectory. And what you very often is to have people who have sociopathic tendencies. And if they go uncheck, if they continue to develop, and if they continue to actually are -- be rewarded with their manipulation, they like it.

And they keep going along the path along the spectrum to the point where they could end up as psychopathic which would include, actually, a magical thinking or delusions or far end of the spectrum where they really -- it`s not just that they lack remorse, they actually change in personality and integrate that into their persona. But this is really Cheryl`s area of expertise. So, I`m going to defer to Cheryl --

PINSKY: Cheryl, do you want to tackle it?

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think Casey did a great job there. There really is an ongoing debate. There are people who use the terms interchangeably, but a lot of people think of psychopaths as being more impulsive, less well-socialized, sort of less successful at life, whereas a sociopath can be a very well-respected, high achieving person.

PINSKY: Yes. I think a psychopath is more in terms of real brain deficits. The parts are not working. The sociopaths, I know, some of that same stuff. Let`s take a quick question from Kathleen in Maryland. Kathleen, go ahead.

KATHLEEN, MARYLAND: Hi. This is for the behavior bureau.

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.

KATHLEEN: Do you think that to Travis, Jodi was only crazy girl sex, and is this a mental disorder where people believe their relationship exists when, in fact, that`s only a delusion?

PINSKY: Casey.

JORDAN: Yes, but it is a delusion. I mean, that`s the point. I really think with Jodi, she want -- she had a dream in her head. She had a reel going on, if you will. Perhaps, dissociative, buff the point is, I think she pictured herself in the house with Travis as her husband and the beautiful little children that she had names for and everything.

And that this fantasy became so big in her head that when he pulled the plug on her and he had to actually say to her, this is not going to happen. Honestly, if he had had a cop call her and say, preferably, a big burly cop and say, Jodi, Travis wants nothing more to do with you. Leave her alone -- leave him alone. That may have actually burst her bubble in a way that was reality based to her.

But because it was Travis telling her I don`t want anything to do with you, that simply meant she just needed to work a little bit harder on changing his mind. She really did have a reel going on in her head that she was not ready to check out of at that time.

PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Next up, I have ha crime scene expert who is going to look at that blob in Travis` eye, that thing right there. And he`s going to tell us what he sighs. He`s got some interesting ideas.

And then, we`re going to talk to witnesses at the Boston bombings.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the one side, we have demeaning, multiple verbal slurs, a slap, a shove, a chalk hold, and a lunge perpetrated on Jodi. On the other, we have a gunshot to the head, a four-inch deep slit throat, and close to 30 stab wounds delivered by Jodi to Travis. Is not the perpetrator of the greatest domestic violence Jodi?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think what happened to Mr. Alexander is horrific.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we`re talking about Mr. Alexander, would it be -- is it possible, then, that he had lots of likeable qualities?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he did. I think from the things that I read, that he had really wonderful qualities, that he was able to motivate people, I think is pretty neat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that the journals don`t include any indication of domestic violence, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It eludes to cruel, harsh behavior.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me, and if you can, point to me where it says in those journals, Mr. Alexander choked me.



PINSKY: There`s nothing. Back with my co-host, Teresa Strasser. Now, Teresa, I love those juror questions when they front load them. You know, they say, well, she slapped and got pushed, and he got stabbed a bunch of time, got a throat slit, got shot in the head, who had more domestic violence? And then, LaViolette doesn`t answer that. Incredible.

STRASSER: Yes, artfully done.

PINSKY: OK. We have joining us, Mark Eiglarsh and Lauren Lake. I also have Randolph Beasley by Skype. There he is. He knew Jodi. He knew Travis. And, he`s here tonight because he is a CSI expert. Randolph, you have a theory about Jodi`s defense -- no. You have a theory about what we saw in the eye. I want you to go right there. What is that blob from your point of view?

RANDOLPH BEASLEY, FORENSIC CRIME SCENE EXPERT: OK, Dr. Drew, I was having a cow. I bet mark heard me in Miami all the way from Southern California when I heard that they stipulated to this expert`s opinion about this enhanced reflection in the eyeball. I just couldn`t believe they would do that without having -- especially outside the presence of the jury, having Juan Martinez ask about these other reflections.

In other words, have Juan Martinez have the expert, show me the position of the arms that you say are arms here. Show me about these other reflections and actually ask what his opinion is. Could that be a gun? Could that be a knife? That`s also reflecting. And in Juan`s defense, maybe he had a report already with this expert`s opinion about that. But he did not say -- the expert did not say that Jodi had both hands on the camera.

PINSKY: Hold on. I hear Mark groaning and moaning in the background. Mark, go right at it.

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I`m so sad tonight because of what happened in Boston. I don`t feel like arguing.


EIGLARSH: But candidly, I can`t let him say that without disagreeing with him. The smartest thing Juan did was just concede, because you don`t want to spend another day or two or three or four on some guy who`s going to say that he sees something that I see as Jimi Hendrix playing at Woodstock.


EIGLARSH: It`s so irrelevant. It`s so speculative that it`s not worth having another battle over that when you have overwhelming evidence of guilt. Good for you, Juan.

PINSKY: I saw everyone react to Mark`s comment, especially Lauren. You want to weigh in on that?

LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Well, it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier, Dr. Drew, that the evidence that Juan does have is so incredibly overwhelming. You don`t want to bore them to tears and risk losing them again. And also, start having them -- picture her as a person, humanizing her. You don`t want to start, oh, maybe that does look like her holding a camera.

That`s all the defense is trying to do is humanize her and make you remember she`s a person and not a monster. We don`t need that if you`re trying to convict her.

PINSKY: Randolph, let me talk to you as a CSI investigator. Is there anything in that blob or is it just total nonsense?

BEASLEY: Well, we don`t know, because we don`t know the enhanced version of that, that the expert has in his lab. So, before I would stipulate to that, of course, now again, I`m coming from a perspective that she did have a gun on him and how --

PINSKY: Maybe it was up high. Maybe that`s she holding the gun and got the camera down there. That looks leak that blob to me. It`s all crazy. Thank you, guys. Thank you.

We`re going now to Boston. We are going to speak to a war vet who was running in the marathon today. He`s going to tell us what he saw, what he knows, and about how Boston is dealing. Be right back.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: We`ve got 12 jurors in studio who will render a verdict. Also, you at home, our online jury will vote guilty or not guilty. Jodi Arias is the sexual deviant. That`s our bold accusation.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first pop, boom. And then another one, boom!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something just blew up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I work in the prudential. I don`t know what`s going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were banged up, bad. Severe lacerations, amputees.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were people bleeding everywhere. My girlfriend ran in to get her bag. And there was one girl that had no foot.


PINSKY: Just so sad. We`re back with my co-host, Teresa Strasser. Again, we`re reporting on the terror attack at the Boston marathon, killed three people, one, an eight-year-old child, injured more than 140 and that number grows every hour. No warning who did it, why, how. We don`t know yet, although, all the federal agencies have been mobilized. Even the National Guard and the coast guard are on the lookout tonight.

Joining us this evening, Cheryl Arutt, Mark Ieiglarsh, and Robert Siciliano. He ran the marathon, witnessed the explosion. I also have Afghanistan war vet and a marathon runner who witnessed the explosion as well, Thom Keeney. Robert, I`m going to go out to you first. Where were you and what you see?

ROBERT SICILIANO, BOSTON MARATHON RUNNER: I was running the corner on Boylston Street. I was heading towards the finish line. Explosions occurred. And I knew exactly what happened immediately when it happened. My first concern was my family. They were on the other side of the bomb. So, I ran toward the bomb to get to my family. I was taken off the street by Boston`s police department.

They did a really good job of evacuating the area. I kind of resist a little bit because I needed to get to my family. And then, I ended up running through the back alleys. As I was running through the back allies, the restaurants and bars were evacuating. And there was just blood and people screaming and people crying. I eventually made it to my family and we got out of Boston. We evacuated.

PINSKY: Tom, I imagine you saw sort of a similar scene?

VOICE OF THOM KEENEY, WAR VETERAN: I actually just crossed the finish line about two minutes before. I was about 50 feet from the finish line when the first explosions went off. We had different experience, but the marathon runners were crossing the finish lines, had looked back and heard the explosion and we saw the smoke. But, we really didn`t know what exactly had happened.

I was next to a young woman who had served in Iraq. And we both kind of thought the same thing about an IED but couldn`t possibly imagine that that was what was actually happening. We dismissed it as some other type of accident. The marathon folks kept people very, very calm. They moved us through away from the blast.

No one really was talking about what happened. Nobody, I think, really knew what had happened. And so, it was a little bit different scene for us right after the explosion on the other side of the finish line.

PINSKY: I have to take a quick break. I`m going to get back to eyewitnesses. I want to know what people are saying in Boston tonight. What do they think happened? Is there speculation? Is there word on the street? And my panel, stand by. If you guys have questions, please ring in. We`ll be right back.






PINSKY: I`m back with my panel, my co-host, Teresa. Teresa, these eyewitness accounts have been so compelling. I know you`ve got a question. Go right at it.

STRASSER: I do. First, let me just say and I think I speak for all of us. God bless the victims and their families in Boston, and of course, the first responders. The thing that struck me from the footage we`ve seen is that you see people not running away, but running towards the destruction and the chaos. These are civilians to help other people. And I wonder, Robert, is that what you experienced and witnessed on the ground there?

SICILIANO: Oh, yes. Without a doubt. People weren`t running away. They were running towards -- it was definitely chaotic. Boston police and the Boston Athletic Association`s volunteers all went right towards victims. The only two ambulances that were on the scene that were assisting the runners were handling the bomb victims. Everybody else was just confused. But, you know, Boston did a really good jock of locking things down.

PINSKY: Robert, were you by the first one by the finish line or the second bomb off in the distance there?

SICILIANO: I was by the second one.

PINSKY: It seemed like the second one -- the second was bigger, was it not? It seemed like it had a fireball associated with it. We have no footage of that. Was that really where a lot of the damage was done?

SICILIANO: I`m not exactly sure. You know, my first concern was my family. I was running down Boylston Street. I saw people laid out on Boylston Street. You know, they were bleeding. There was Boston police around them. And there were the volunteers helping them out. And then, I got pushed offer the road by a Boston police. I had to jump a couple fences.

I ran through the back alleys, and through the back alleys, I saw people running out of the bars that were just bombed. They were yelling, they were screaming, and there was blood on the ground. And I ran towards my family to get them to safety because my first concern was that another bomb was going to go off.

PINSKY: Of course. Mark, you got a question for anybody, Robert?

EIGLARSH: Drew, I`m having a really hard time --

PINSKY: Yes. Me, too.

EIGLARSH: Why more with this tragedy maybe because the ages of the kids are kind of in line with my children.

PINSKY: Yes, yes, yes.

EIGLARSH: I know you`re not a grief counselor, but how do we process this?

PINSKY: Cheryl, let`s you and I get in on this real quickly. I mean, it`s going to be hard -- it`s going to be different for all of us. Listen, my question is how much more of this garbage do we have to go through in this country? Cheryl, but go ahead. I`m angry.

ARUTT: Well, I am too. And this is absolutely devastating. And, as a trauma specialist, I just want to make sure I`ve taken opportunity just to say a few things to people about what they may be feeling and experiencing after something like this. They may have trouble sleeping, be jumpy. These are all normal. People getting with their loved ones is coming. And there are treatments for post-traumatic stress disorder if you find --

PINSKY: Yes. The key is -- key is, if you really continue to have trouble with symptoms of anxiety, sleeplessness, flashbacks, that kind of thing, get help. Being in treatment now can reduce the risk later and keep the people you love close to you. Important relationships get us through situations like this. Back after this.


PINSKY: It`s time for the last call. Teresa Strasser is still here with me. On the phone with us, Demi Clark, run the marathon and was yards away from the first explosion. She is in the video we`ve been seeing all day. Where are you now?

VOICE OF DEMI CLARK, MARATHON RUNNER: I am in Boston with my family. We`re in the hotel.

PINSKY: Thank god. Where are you from?

CLARK: Charlotte, North Carolina.

PINSKY: And -- this is so hard to understand. You almost can`t wrap your head around this. I`ve seen you on television today doing other interviews. Has your perspective on this changed as the day has gone on?

CLARK: Just hearing about the numbers, the sheer numbers. I mean, when we were there, it was so localized to what we were in front of, and it looked -- I mean, it was terrible carnage. But to hear in the hundreds, it`s just still the sense of disbelief.

PINSKY: Demi, I have a feeling that the other blast was bigger. The pictures I`ve seen of it, even at a distance, it looks like it was quite large. And I have a feeling that`s where all the real bad stuff happened. And we have no footage of that, interestingly. Let me ask you this, are people speculating there in Boston? I imagine rumors are flying all over the place. Is there anybody saying anything that makes sense?

CLARK: I think it`s just that. I mean, it was rumored from the get go, you know, from finishing. And I`m hearing other stories from other finishers saying the same thing. We didn`t know if it was an IED. We didn`t know if it was canon. We didn`t know if it was part of the race. And then, looking to the left, obviously, it wasn`t. And then, seeing the chain reaction, we were thinking, the whole city is under siege.

So, leaving and trying to get out, you know, with the green line down and no cabs and the Lenox Hotel was under siege. And so, it was very much like 9/11 where a lot of things were going around the city and still are.

PINSKY: Teresa, any -- I`ve got about 20 seconds. Any questions you have for Demi?

STRASSER: I just -- I`m so happy you`re OK.

PINSKY: With your family, yes.


PINSKY: It`s just -- it`s just -- you know, the message for everybody, Demi, I`m sure you agree with me is, don`t be alone tonight, anybody. Everyone, be with people they love. Re-emphasize what`s important in your life. That`s all I`m saying. And of course, our sympathies go out to those who did lose someone in Boston today and to the city of Boston. Thank you, Teresa. See you next time. "HLN After Dark" right now.